Conversation 131-014

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Hello.

Yes, sir.

Well, what's the evening report?

Anything new?

No, sir.

It's been weirdly quiet today.

Anlock is... We still haven't got word that they have linked up, but they're on the verge of it, and the attacks have broken off completely there.

Mm-hmm.

The...

But we're continuing to hit them there, though, are we?

Yes, sir.

Well, today they did get the sorties at 1260.

Yeah.

And they're hitting that Contoon area hard, too, are they?

In Contoon, it looks like from all indications, that attack should break within the next 48 hours.

Of course, we've been saying that for a week, but Abrams said the units are all in position now.

Well, why doesn't he just put the whole 1,200 on that place for, I mean, if that's where he's, or is his intelligence that accurate?

He doesn't feel that he could really give that a wallop.

If they know they're in place, does he know where they are?

No, I don't think he knows other than to know that the communications are such that they anticipate that.

Well, he must have it all in mind in any event.

Yes, sir.

I think they're doing quite well.

Now, we had a report that...

The Air Force general we sent out there has told the chairman this morning that he feels the tide is just turning.

You know, I sensed this about three days ago.

Yeah, you told me that, yeah.

And he has now confirmed this himself.

He said the captions they're getting and the general appearance is that they've been hurt very badly.

What is the one part, Al, that I'm going to write a little memorandum on it, but I really wish you'd

I just don't think that Helms' outfit, and that means, of course, we're probably doing the maximum that we should in terms of propaganda.

I mean, in North Vietnam and in South Vietnam with the enemy, are we doing anything like, for example, pointing out that more B-52s are coming?

come on over, you're losing, you know, I mean, every kind of a thing, you know, that was commonplace in World War II, but

Has Helms' outfit ever come up with anything?

I remember I wrote a memorandum on it a week ago.

Yes, sir.

This isn't all Helms' people.

This is the center departmental group by state.

And what do they do?

Well, for Christ's sake, state doesn't know anything about that sort of thing.

Well, the people that do the job are Sink Pack and the C. They've had millions of leaflets dropped both in the south and in the north.

But are they playing the...

Frankly, the dirty tricks game, you know, that's what you have to do, Al, as you know.

You've got to mislead them.

You don't tell them the truth.

You tell them what is not true and scare the hell out of them.

Right, and also now CIA has got that.

They've got the black broadcast, which is threatening invasion and misleading.

I think one point that should be made is to now make a major effort to get prisoners to come over and just say, look, it's all over and your homeland is finished.

you'll be treated well and, you know, I don't know.

You're exactly right, sir, because we have a report from a Frenchman from Hanoi who is a very reliable guy.

And he said that while the control is still quite good, that there are real signs of shortages already.

that the people that have been bringing the bodies that have been killed in our airstrikes and putting them in the city hall there in Hanoi are outraged and are very upset at what the government's gotten them into.

Where would these people have been killed?

You mean killed up in the north?

Yes, in the Hanoi area, the airstrikes.

And the city, the port is in very bad shape already.

The strikes have been much more brutal than they've ever experienced before.

Of course, the ports, you mean apart from the mining, you mean?

Apart from the mining, the airstrikes.

Yeah, good, good, good.

There are signs, and this is a pretty reliable guy.

He's a guy that God knows and gives high credit to.

He said they're still in firm control, but there's a stronger disillusionment than he's ever sensed there before.

They're getting word to the north, too, of the reverses in the south and the battlefield.

They're concerned about their families.

The families are concerned about what's happened to the young.

Well, this is the kind of thing we're trying to stress in this theme of the leaflets that are dropping up north.

Yeah, yeah.

That these guys are being totally devastated by B-52s and they'll never see them again.

They're being chained to their weapons in some cases.

Yeah, and I would just indicate that if you could just tell Helms to indicate that the president has ordered doubling the number of B-52s, that they're on the way.

All right.

Let's put that out.

that the number is, now we have 100 and the President has ordered another 100 to come in from Europe.

Put that out.

Right.

And let them get a little fright.

Anything else you can think of?

I just want them to have some imagination.

We don't do anything that, you know, from the NSC group and

And that's one place we've been terribly weak throughout this whole damn miserable war.

The propaganda side is just because it's in too many hands and Christ's state doesn't understand it.

They're thinking in the usual, you know, what's true and all that.

And that's just crap.

This is war.

I mean, remember George Creel in World War I and, you know, even that silly OSS did pretty well at times.

But my point is, I really feel that this is a time now to

If the propaganda, I mean, if the tide of battle is turning, that's the time to pour in the propaganda.

Don't you think so?

Yes, I do.

I think it's very important that we do up north especially in the areas where there's been heavy losses in the south.

Yeah, yeah.

I think we may see some increased sapper activity and terrorist activity here starting Friday.

Because that's Ho Chi Minh's birthday?

Right, sir.

That would probably show itself in the Delta and the Ram III Corps area.

Well, I suppose all of our guys, the Americans, are certainly alert to that now, aren't they, our forces?

Oh, yes, they're on full alert for it.

But the other thing, it seemed to me, remember you told me about that, to just do one thing, to do one thing.

You know, that C-1, what was it, C-5A they knocked out?

You know, that plane that you said with the carrying ammunition killed seven guys, yeah.

Oh, yeah, this morning.

Yeah, yeah.

Why not just put 20 B-52s in that general area there?

I mean, wouldn't that be...

I mean, just to show the God damn it, if they pull this sort of thing, they're going to be hit.

Or has that been done?

You know, I really feel that when they... What was that, a rocket attack?

Well, we didn't know whether it was artillery or mortar or rocket.

It's just there was a lucky hit on the damn plane, and two South Vietnamese planes were hit, too.

And that airfield at Khantoum is now under pretty heavy fire.

Well, but Abrams is hitting that area around it, is he?

I mean, if it's under fire.

Very heavily.

They broke up an attack yesterday with B-52s, another one that landed right on an attacking unit, and the attack broke off.

But the attacks by fire are continuing.

I see.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I guess we're just doing everything we can.

Just keep our feet to the fire and tell them on the propaganda side, just tell them that I'm, that I, you can pass this word, that I'm disappointed that I haven't had any ideas from Helms' outfit and none from the other outfit.

And I want to see some, I really want to see some Friday noon before I leave.

What the hell are their new ideas in the propaganda?

If I were to do that, tell them I expect something.

I don't want a long paper and I don't want a long report.

But what new things can they suggest doing at this time?

having in mind the fact that the tide of battle may be changing, and that we want to really pour terror in the hearts of the enemy.

Well, I did have a memo being prepared right now to tell you what we've done, a very brief one.

Well, I want some new ideas.

Just say now, tell them to work all night, that I expect it to, you know, they can do that.

I can do that.

It's not a routine business, you know.

If other guys are out there, those poor guys in that plane or seven of them dead, let these bastards that we have here work overnight for a change.

You know, tell them to get off their ass and think of something.

Fine, sir.

Well, we'll get on it right now.

Yeah.

Good.

We'll get some new programs in.

Okay.

Good.

Fine.

Apparently, Boat's doing a good job, isn't he?

He's doing a superb job, and I can tell the chairman's got great reliance on him.

Great.

Okay, Al.

Thank you.

Fine.