Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 145 › Conversation 145-017

Kissinger & Zumwalt on Strategic Arms Limitation Talks

Monday, October 2, 1972 · 4:59 PM–8:22 PM ET · Camp David Study Table · 2 min

ParticipantsKissinger, Henry A.; Zumwalt, Adm. Elmo R., Jr.Conversation145-017 on Tape 145StartMonday, October 2, 1972 at 4:59 PMEndMonday, October 2, 1972 at 8:22 PMRecording deviceCamp David Study TableSourceNixon Library record for 145-017 ↗

AI Summary

Henry Kissinger and Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr. discussed the logistical and political challenges of using civilian-manned ships for maritime operations in the context of ongoing Strategic Arms Limitation Talks (SALT). They evaluated the feasibility of transitioning ships from Navy to non-Navy status to appease Soviet demands while navigating potential obstacles, including maritime union opposition and congressional funding concerns. Ultimately, Kissinger expressed skepticism regarding the proposal's complexity and suggested the plan might be abandoned due to the difficulty of managing internal government stakeholders.

Audio

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Hello?
Yes, sir, Admiral Jim Watson.
Hello.
Admiral Jim Watson.
Yes, how are you?
Fine, Henry.
The picture is not as good as I would like it to be.
The minuses are that these ships are civilian manned, run by our MSPS, our station, and they're unionized, so there is some concern that they might object
at the crew level through their Union.
Now the Russians are saying they don't really care who runs them as long as we give them some faith-saving device so that they can call them non-Navy ships.
The concern here is that the Union might object to Congress about the shift in their status from Navy to another organization.
But could we give them another organization and make the Navy the executive agent for it?
This could be done.
The other problem is whether or not we would run into trouble with Congress with regard to future funding.
The advice we have from our congressional experts is that that might be a little tricky.
Okay, well, it may be just too difficult to do, and it isn't a big enough deal.
We may just have to drop the whole idea.
It worries me a little bit because of the fact that we can't control the other branch of the government.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the problem.
Okay.
Well, I appreciate you looking into it.
All right, Henry.
Good.
Hope to see you when things ease up a bit in my frantic traveling.
I'm at your call.
Good.
Thank you.

NARA Description

On October 2, 1972, Henry A. Kissinger and Adm. Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr. talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 4:59 pm and 8:22 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 145-017 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 145-17

Date: October 2, 1972
Time: Unknown between 4:59 pm and 8:22 pm
Location: Camp David Study Table

Henry A. Kissinger talked with Adm. Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr.

[See Conversation No. 214-27]

            Greetings

            Strategic Arms Limitation Talks [SALT]
                 -Civilian-manned ships
                     -Military Sea Transportation Service [MSTS]
                     -Possible union objection
                     -Soviet Union’s view
                     -Possible union action
                          -Congress
                     -Possible Navy role
                 -Congress
                     -Funding

             Kissinger’s schedule

Also recorded on October 2, 1972

  • 145-012 4:59 PM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 4:59 pm and 8:22 pm.
  • 145-013 4:59 PM · 16 sec — Henry A. Kissinger and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 4:59 pm and 8:22 pm.
  • 145-014 4:59 PM · 23 sec — Henry A. Kissinger and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 4:59 pm and 8:22 pm.
  • 145-015 4:59 PM · 17 sec — Henry A. Kissinger and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 4:59 pm and 8:22 pm.
  • 145-016 4:59 PM · 11 sec — Henry A. Kissinger and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 4:59 pm and 8:22 pm.
  • 214-024 5:03 PM · 12 sec — Henry A. Kissinger and Camp David operator met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 5:03 pm and 8:30 pm.
  • 214-025 5:03 PM · 28 sec — Henry A. Kissinger and Camp David operator met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 5:03 pm and 8:30 pm.
  • 214-026 5:03 PM · 18 sec — Henry A. Kissinger and Camp David operator met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 5:03 pm and 8:30 pm.

All 44 conversations from October 2, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 145-017, October 2, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/145-017 (accessed October 12, 2026).