Conversation 229-011

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I wanted to check to see what the situation first is with regard to the Friday schedule.

I have to, I've forgotten my medical body.

I'm trying to think.

You have 9 o'clock and a 10 o'clock on me and both of you.

That's it.

So it goes out for Monday if you want to see it.

Well, I don't know what to do.

How long do you need it to do?

I guess the real problem is we haven't got anybody to talk to these assholes before they come in.

You know what I mean?

At that level.

Well, I mean,

If you get a run spell type, then we'll play it that way.

That was a little God damn curious.

If it goes beyond that, it was unbelievable.

What did John, or John was, you know, he was shocked.

Hi, Rose.

I wondered if you would call.

And if you would call and find out how long it takes.

Oh, okay.

Well, ask him.

I don't know if he tries to come in early.

So if I could say do it, say at 8 o'clock, at the 8 o'clock appointment on Friday.

If that's convenient for him.

If not, I could do it, uh,

Yeah, just tell them up here what time it is.

In other words, 8 or 10.30 would be fine with me.

8 or 10.30.

Now, the other thing I would like to find out if you would, Rose, I think he'd prefer 8.

Remember, he always used to take me to the clock.

unless he's changed his habits, but nevertheless, that gets each other in other ways.

Yes, sir?

We just checked to see whether the firm is going to be in on Friday or in the holiday.

I don't recall what the weekend is.

Yeah, yes, I have discreetly if they do.

I said, when I go to New York, I'd love to visit the United States just to drop by there.

I haven't been there since I left, for good reason.

Because I think now it will be a very good time to do that.

So check that to see what time the firm, if the firm is going to, if they're going to be around, let's see, around, say, two o'clock in the afternoon or something like that.

And, you know, on Friday, if they're not at all, I don't know.

Yeah, sure.

Let's see.

Okay.

There's something he's going to come up and go with her, too.

They work that out.

So that'll be very nice to know that she'll have somebody with her.

By the way, I... Yeah, well, we gotta try to... We're trying to get that set up so we can get all these things finished while we can.

Let's see.

But they'll be all true by Monday or Tuesday.

But then I have two more weeks.

Okay, fine.

You just go and find out.

Oh, the other thing that I can do on Rylan, I can modify his...

Oh, I ain't seen him.

No, no, no, no, no.

If I was uptown, no, no, no.

I don't need him at all.

I just saw the numbers down there.

His office is getting all the kick out of it.

So, fine.

Great.

Fine.

We'll pass that thing.

All I need to know is where the firm is.

Call me back on that, will you?

And just call me back at the dentist too, then.

Let me get the two off.

Okay?

No, but I...

I thought that I...

I don't think he should know better.

I don't think he ought to be nice to the people at that meeting.

Rumsfeld, how he's been offered to move over and over.

Yeah.

And it just doesn't make sense.

What have we offered him, as a matter of fact?

We talked about a lot of action that's been going on.

He kind of wobbles into them and wobbles out of them.

But John was surprised.

Yeah.

One thing, I need to check with you on .

He's been walking around the country and he ended up here in Washington.

He's here now at the Shaw.

And I can't figure out exactly, I talked to him last night, whether he came here to see you or whether he's here for something else and wants to see you.

But he wants to see you for a few minutes about his efforts to get to China.

And I think he feels that if he can say he saw you.

Fine, fine, fine, fine.

But you might want to have him come up.

If you don't, I think you could probably handle it by a phone call.

Just say you're locked up.

I told him you were here today.

Yes, sir.

I didn't come up here.

See if you'd like to come up.

It was pretty clear that he's free.

I have a meeting.

He just came to Washington to see me.

I don't know what to do.

And have it helicoptered, of course, into our poultry.

Right?

We're going tomorrow.

Goddamn, this must be about everybody.

Tomorrow is, uh... Oh, man, I just want to see everybody.

This is quite upsetting.

I'm not sure I can take it this time.

David and all his people.

I don't think they need to see David.

I don't have him down.

Tomorrow is Goldwater, Hudson, Clements, Kennedy, and Sapphire, if you want to see Sapphire.

Well, I think it's a nice touch on Dole.

Probably Dole.

But I'm not sure we want to do Dole.

I may want to wait until we get this external ground swell built up a little bit.

Well, we can say it's there anyway, which is true.

We've done some checking around the country, and there is a substantial healing.

It's no problem.

Has anybody said anything that's gotten in the paper yet?

No.

Well, I haven't seen anything in the papers.

They say they have, and we're pushing to try and get some.

We haven't heard yet from Bush this morning.

Yes, John talked to him.

He called this morning and said that if I... No, he didn't.

He said he still thinks...

should do it.

Barbara had some second thoughts last night, that it was kind of a road change from the glories of the UN emphases to the back walls of Washington politics.

But George said that he's not going to turn George.

And he has John in the movie already.

And he called John Mitchell and discussed the matter with him some.

And John said, of course.

And I called Mitchell.

But I can't even tell him I talked to him.

He just talked to me leaning hard as hell.

Absolutely.

Mitchell had no objection to it.

He was a poor push for a previous place.

He is.

He is now.

Remember, he wasn't before.

But I talked to Mitchell yesterday about it.

And Mitchell was all for it.

He said, you can't get it, but give it a try.

Oh, that's right.

And so I told him that it looked as if he was going to take it.

Anything John could do to push him would be very helpful.

And he gave him some talking points.

No, he was holding to try and get some of this so that he could.

I can have John just do it.

I don't think so.

I'd like to come back and say, well, I think we ought to do this.

You know, Harlow, you know.

That's right.

Harlow always comes up with a big number.

No, what I want to do with Dovo is to simply say that this is, I just feel that the party wants a full-time man.

You know, we ought to have enough.

We'll be made the calls too.

Maybe I can get busy on this.

We get this.

I don't know.

We've got 40 people, Colson, and all those people get off their ass.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Harlow, Colson, they're all for Mitchell and Lee.

They're all supposed to be both that and the congressional campaign thing.

They've got both of them going.

The problem is getting in the press on that, because I guess everybody won't say anything coming under the neighbor's pick-up.

But we can still do it.

We can do it on the basis that we've been doing some checking around.

We find that this is a strong feeling.

It was our feeling also.

Well, I got in that thing.

Mitchell, I guess, isn't here.

You see, we don't have anybody to call in.

But you can talk to him on the phone, huh?

Yeah.

Goddamn it.

It's... You know, as Mitchell says, don't rush on it.

His point is you don't need to rush to see Dole.

That is part of your cabinet appointment to tell your stuff anyway.

Why don't you get him down with you?

Yeah.

Come up here.

Well, so sure you want him up here anyway.

And just kind of put him, come up Monday.

Monday.

Just build the hell out of it, though.

Then it isn't Monday, but I want to nail Bush.

That's the problem I have.

Yeah.

We can nail Bush.

Yeah, I understand.

I want Bush totally nailed.

We don't want to announce a political event before we do the other, but I want the heat put on him.

Get Borden, Scott.

Has that occurred to anybody?

Get him.

Let's just call Borden, Scott.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, but they won't.

I don't think.

I'm trying to get him to the price.

I don't know.

Okay.

I guess I'm trying to.

I'm in a session with you and John.

I probably have to go over the decisions on it.

Yeah, left here.

I don't like that.

Also, I want to look at all those down below, you know, the ones that Malik has been working on.

I may have some ideas, right?

There may be some people that I just have a bad feeling about or a good feeling about.

Not good.

How the hell are we going to do that?

Look at all this Stein today, Klein today.

Shit, I shouldn't have to pick any time to pick up.

See the woman and, uh,

That other person, the council, and everything, you know, Russ Crane, and got all those councils, and David, you know, there'll be, I just don't know what we have to do here.

I think there's so much time to spend, and that's all, that's absolutely right.

You don't have to go any further than you want now.

Once we get to the cabinet, then the rest of it can all go.

A lot of people going out,

Seems to me that what you ought to spend your time on is any people that we bring in at this point, not the people that are going out, because that's where you gain something.

You don't gain anything.

Exactly.

Is there anybody that can talk to Goldie before he comes to prepare the way for him?

Yeah.

Oh, I mean, who?

Who?

John.

Should Mitchell do it?

I don't know.

Should Mitchell talk to him, too?

No, no, I don't want to have any, you know, how it will be, you know, I've been loyal, and I've worked hard, and I want to stay, and it's not fair, and I want to be the head.

I don't want to go through that kind of obsession.

It's not right for him.

You see, that's the thing that I didn't like about the Rumsfeld thing, because God damn it, I sat there, and all of a sudden I was sort of trying to suggest what else he should do.

Well, Christ, I can't tell him how to run his life.

John says he agreed to what's worked out for him.

Yeah.

I told John he should have this one run.

So took this other bounce.

John should have just immediately interrupted in this way.

It's got to be done if one of these tests happen this way, I think.

And said, well, now that's contrary to what we had talked about.

Changes the picture.

And I think we better regroup and see what we can work on here.

Because obviously, you've got a different view.

And then you should say, yes, you call school.

Get back to this.

Where did Rumsfeld now stand?

I don't know.

I guess he's thinking you apparently offered several different things that he ought to be thinking about.

About the European Economic Community.

No, no, no.

That depends on Peterson.

We have heard from Peterson some ambassadorship or something.

What's that?

Oh, the Secretary of the Navy.

The Secretary of the Navy doesn't want that.

That's thrown out.

He wants a cabinet position.

I told him, I said, I think they're all close.

I'm not going to put him in a cabinet.

for a year.

He made an argument to the effect that it isn't really fair to put somebody if we can't get the thing running.

Well, he says he thought we could do that.

You know, he could put in and then somebody else could have a transition.

Jesus Christ, I just couldn't harvest it.

Yeah.

Sure.

Okay.

Hello?

That amazing man, 70 years old, he's in that office before he...

Oh, I'll be darned.

You know, Freddie, you know what?

You know, I don't think I ought to surprise them because some of the ones that really would just have done work and everything, my wife would just hate it if they missed it, see?

It would be a nice thing, and that would be nice.

I haven't completely talked to my wife about it.

I don't know.

You've got John Mitchell there.

I think John Mitchell is the one you should talk to.

That would be nice.

They let you know that I'm going there.

I'll tell you, you can call John and tell him that I tentatively would be there around 2 o'clock in the afternoon or 2.30.

Say 2.30.

Well, I know that I'm going to finish my...

What time do I take off?

Yesterday.

But I have to go here.

Because I know they like to get out for their early weekends and so forth, but that's time probably.

Why don't we say, Rosen, I'll be there about 2.30 to 3 o'clock.

Right.

And then I'll just drop in and say hello to the people.

Yes, I'm sure that I'll be up there.

Just stop by and say hello.

I don't want to go office to office.

That takes too much time.

They could just have the people.

Well, they could have the people gathered.

I mean, the people, the secretaries and all the rest sort of gathered around in the reception room, and I could say, well, thank you very much, and so forth, and then drop into the room with the senior partners to talk about, let's see, that's nice.

I don't know how to set it up.

Fine.

Oh, would you also set up a partner, a appointment with the barter, or if we could, if...

9 o'clock.

Let's see if he can be here to see the president at 4 o'clock today.

And have him choppered out.

Tom's choppered at 315.

Wait around for other people to put on.

Well, there won't be.

Just have a 315 chopper for him.

Have a car pick him up with, you know, a chest.

And, uh... You know, uh...

Bill Rogers.

Gracious.

Quite kind and so forth.

If there's certainly one thing about our so-called image that we haven't gotten across, it's the fact that if anything, I'm too goddamn kind to these two people.

Yep.

I really think that's true.

Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, sir.

I should have really thrown Rumsfeld out in his ass.

I should have sat there like a bum in a log and should have said, well, we didn't know hell was a damn thing.

Nothing but just a kid.

No, he did start managing to get in and take a post up, probably.

He'd be on his seat for a while.

Well, he'd be a good man.

And he'd be good.

He'd be willing to have their rhythm, whining around.

Yeah.

But let me say, fortunately, he didn't do anything.

We haven't done anything.

Our administration, unfortunately, that's where it's at.

The Rumsfeld thing, when it gets to that point, it ought to be just pulled and turned off and just say, well, obviously this is, you know, I understood that he was going to come in.

It was all written out.

Go out and run for the Senate.

And go out and run for the Senate.

And that he would stay on for a while, like a foreign trip or something.

So I started to say that.

I felt like a goddamn fool.

He said, well, that really would be downgrading me to have me take a foreign trip.

That's what people will see clearly.

Christ, I sort of looked at John.

I wondered, what the hell was wrong?

I thought, maybe I misread the goddamn thing.

Of course, at that point, John should have stepped in.

John should have said something.

John, why didn't you say that then?

Yeah.

Of course, he's played this game before.

Sure, he has.

He did it the same thing.

He's going to have a real problem with the Senate, in my opinion.

Yeah.

For that very reason.

You don't inspire confidence.

That's sort of goddamn.

You know, he's read some books someplace that you're supposed to be sort of

What the hell is he doing?

He read a message from Henry saying to bring him, contacted him directly in Paris and advised that Trish and Ed would be highly welcome in the Soviet Union.

They'll be in touch with Henry early next week on timing and additional details.

They've also sent a message that they will meet up with him in Vietnam.

We've also got a cable from Henry on the first day's stuff.

If you want to read it, if you want to retype it, just have it retyped and sent over.

I didn't know whether you wanted anybody typing this stuff.

No, it doesn't really make much difference.

There isn't that much difference.

I'll give you a quick summary on it.

He just goes through, you know, exchanging pleasantries.

Oh, okay.

Devoid of vitriolic believing.

A break during which the subsidy changes between a lead-up tow.

Henry made clear the most important remaining obstacle was not to give any troops an assault.

He did not reject some deal, but he was essentially noncommittal.

on expressing any flexibility.

On resumption of discussions, Henry Paine statenly covered all the proposed changes, the lengthy process, and 67 changes.

Toe was taken aback by the extent of our modifications.

Discussed importance of achieving greater simultaneity between ceasefire and those in Laos and Cambodia.

weren't strong as intense by military activity.

Ossie's side demonstrated distinct eagerness to arrive at an agreement this week and to have it implemented at an early date and in performance with a fixed schedule, which we should jointly agree to during this session.

This eagerness was combined with demands for assurances from us that there would be no more changes in the agreement once the week's activities had been concluded.

This we had already given prior to the meeting to Annalise, Wells, Moscow, and Bay of Canaan.

Finally, he warned that if we were to present the numerous changes to which I had given them today in an inflexible way, Horace Nolan may have figured out that his war would continue for four more years.

It is requested that he be removed from his office yesterday, and I don't have any report.

That was supposed to be a late meeting.

There's no reporting on it yet.

On the Buchanan monographs, he has written the first one and the second one.

working on the third one yesterday or last night.

First, he's talking to Harrison Salisbury and is pushing the first one as an op-ed piece of the Times.

What's it on?

The Dirtiest Campaign Ever.

And, uh, I don't know, but Louie knows that he's on that, and that's good.

Louie has such nice ones.

I know you give it your gun and you know it's done.

I've got one opinion problem on the inaugural.

They have

may not be a problem at all.

They have a competition, as they always do, for the design of the inaugural pavilion.

I've got all the rest of the stuff worked out, but they need, it's left to the contractor, it won't get done and all that.

And the question is whether it's acceptable to you, and I have a feeling it may not be, because it isn't a real problem.

No, most certainly not.

Horrible.

Horrible, no.

I don't want anything modern called assholes, okay?

What they'll have to do because of time is go back and use the same one they used last time.

Actually, use the one they used last time.

Tom, I think that is, I want you to tell them, I totally turn off by that.

Aren't you?

Yes.

I don't like to.

I happen to be a traditionalist.

But my point is that that's, here's where,

Did this come from somebody on our staff?

No, sir.

Nancy Hanks, Linda, or somebody said that's what they'd like.

No.

This is a modern art son of a bitch.

That's right.

It was a competition.

I'm on the Metropolitan Washington chapter of the American Institute of Art.

Fine.

It's not going to be done that way.

And this was the unanimous choice of the entry from over 60 entries.

That's right.

Fine.

Let me see it again.

In some ways, it's not bad, actually.

I just wonder.

Maybe you don't care.

No, no, no.

They've announced the winner of the design competition.

So we'll create a flat when we do it.

They say it's a lightness of architectural character appropriate to the structure.

No.

That's called visibility.

No.

I won't take it.

They just can't get it built.

Did they say that or what?

No.

Have they already started to build it?

No.

They have not left the contract.

And they're not approval.

Just do the one they did last time and give the prize to the son of a bitch that did this.

God almighty, that's horrible.

That is really horrible.

Modern art shit anyway.

It's hard right now.

I just don't like it.

I think it's a good flap to get into.

Make yourself a traditionalist.

I don't care for it.

preferred the classic design.

I've heard it before.

The classic design is the one we had before.

It's already built, isn't it?

No, no, they've turned it down.

See, they've got the plans.

It saves money.

Just say that the president feels that we should not make a new design.

We should just have the one we had before.

There'll be a flop because the Washington Architects Institute will say that's a terrible thing.

The jury selected this.

Damn jury.

What the hell?

See, this was all done before the election, before we had anything to do with this.

Can't we get maybe Bill Marriott to turn it down rather than me?

That's the way I do it.

Instead of just pushing all these hot ones up to me, can't we get somebody else to turn it down?

No, you can't.

All right, I'll turn it down then.

It pisses me off.

Every one of the governments.

Not all the time.

Submit to me if they've already picked it.

Submit some other plans or something.

Because they had a...

The way they do it, they do this way back.

All this inaugural stuff, they do a lot of money.

As you know, the stand-up, the capitals, all go practically.

Oh, hell, why don't you do this, Tom, and put it up with it?

I disapprove of it.

Good story, huh?

Why don't we ask if it could be changed?

I prefer a traditional type if it could be done.

And also because I think it would be less expensive.

All right.

Come on.

If you can't, then if all hell breaks loose, all right, we'll take this.

But then I want the story out that the president disapproved it, you were disappointed.

And then that way disapproved it because they had already gone forward.

Let's not have the sons of bitches have their goddamn thing.

And everybody pay attention to it.

That's what you have.

Modern art.

It isn't as bad as Orlando.

They barely have the idea of what we're talking about.

I'm cutting that son of a bitch right now.

You know, since he's such a great guy with that combination, he wants to build that up and then he wants to put Frank Stanton as the Franklin of Bicentennial.

Of course, I know that Stanton has made public statements for us, but he's against us.

He's part of the establishment that's against us.

Well, he's a snake, isn't he?

So he's down now.

He's screwed hard against us.

Let me go over three or four things here on this.

First, with regard to Stein, do I tell him that I want the people to stay on?

Now, I've got to kick Schultz's fat ass in the ass.

He's got to do something for Rick Frey.

Has he seen him or not?

I don't know.

Order him to see Rick Frey.

Order him.

That's an order from me.

Rick Frey did more than Schultz and Stein combined.

in terms of what he got across.

I don't care whether he's an ass or not, but you know, God damn it, you gotta do some things.

George does that.

You know, he's stubborn that way.

Very stubborn.

I'm sorry, I thought you were talking to yourself about it, because I didn't tell you you were even finding the C sound.

I don't give a damn about who's on there.

Also, except I think Rick Fry's got to have

Let me talk to you a little about Garmin, that I do feel strongly about.

I think you've got to watch the situation.

And when I talked to Pete Flanagan, who I love, and I think a client coming in and the rest, where we have basically the old Nixon group, and they, frankly, get pretty special treatment.

And people who happen to come along a little later, but who did work their butts off,

Get a little bigger tree.

Now, let me talk about Kermit a moment.

Kermit in 1963, he's earning $150,000.

He's one of the senior partners of Munchner.

He devoted his whole life.

He worked in the law firm in the 64 campaign.

In the 66, he's the guy that this ring phrase name brought up, the discovery ring phrase.

He worked his butt off in the campaign in his own way.

We know that he's in favor.

But I mean, compared to Pete planning it,

who did work in 60, and who did work in 68.

Garmin, he did as much or more.

The point is, at much greater sacrifice.

It's an easy thing for Garmin.

He has no money at all.

He hasn't got a goddamn handle.

Now, the point is, he can make planning an assistant to the president.

Here's Garmin, a senior partner and a major New York law firm coming in as a consultant

A special consultant to the president.

He's a special consultant to the president.

The title is requested.

At the top salary, he gets exactly the same to the nickel of the money.

Just the salary, but it's the prestige.

He's got the prestige.

He's got the car.

He is treated as the topmost assistant to the president.

Maybe that's the problem.

I don't know.

I guess it's called business of office.

But one thing I'll say for him, apparently he's never complained before about it.

I think his point is he needs to have a little change now, and I think he's correct.

I think that's right.

And I get it, but he can have the same title as Flanagan, and I see no reason why he can't.

I think that's, yeah, we're going to try and simplify this.

But the point that I would do, the point that I would do is, where is Flanagan's office?

Is it in the EOB?

No, it's in the West One, but it's going to move over to the EOB.

to do.

We've done too much in the way, like John Whitaker, we brought in at the top level because it was very loyal to him.

It was a draw.

It's not been badly treated.

The last four years he's traveled all over the world.

He's gone any place he wanted to go when he wanted to do it.

I agree, I agree.

No, I was thinking of the title business thing.

You understand that these things mean things to people.

Have you remembered the original plan was for Linda to work in a law firm and be a kitchen cabinet type?

I don't know.

Outside, and then she made the strong pitch to be effective and wanted to come in.

She came in on exactly his terms.

All right, all right.

You work it out, will you, just so that Carmen has a, has a proper... Yeah, right.

I don't give a one damn about it.

That's not the money.

That's good.

Do you have anything with regard to the letter people?

I don't have the report back.

You give that to me because I have to dedicate that letter myself.

It's a small thing, but I've got to do it right.

About this meeting, whether you think we can start, we can have it.

I think we've got to get really going on you early.

I had a real nut-cutting meeting about this because I hear names thrown around in the hood that I've never heard of.

Oh, the names thrown around in the hall?

You haven't heard of it?

Well, what I meant is that I'd like to see and let me hear this.

Paul and I have Denton and all the rest that we've talked about.

And, of course, we've got to get Peterson off the top to get him to say what he wants to do.

He thinks he's trying to get Schultz.

Schultz is supposed to have the incentive.

Schultz just arrived, so he should have the incentive.

What is your feeling on Peterson?

Suppose he doesn't want that.

Do you let him stay in Congress?

No.

Why not?

Because I don't think... Now is the time to make the change.

You don't feel comfortable with it.

You're going to continue not to feel comfortable with it.

I think we ought to make the change.

But I think he's set up right now.

But I think he's plenty smart.

Sure, he contributes a lot.

But on the other hand, there are plenty smart people.

I think you're concerned about his being a Percy type, as valid he is.

He is very close to Chuck.

That is disloyalty to you, and I don't think he is disloyal to you.

I don't think he's loyal either.

I'll tell you, I think I could spend a couple of hours with him and enormously affect that book.

Do you agree?

Yes, sir.

I think we should.

I know.

Work out something.

You've let Colson know that he ought to turn the heat on on the goal, too, haven't you?

Yes, sir.

Webster for the IRS, right?

I'll go with his name later.

I want to get some of these things settled like that.

Scally on the U.S.

I don't know.

Is that...

I don't think you're going to hear just about anything else.

There's...

The traditionalist thing.

Like, my girl, I took her book back.

We're kidding.

It's still in Vancouver.

She's serious.

And I know you're serious.

Right.

Uh...

I just think it's a good place for him.

I really don't see why it's a bad call.

I don't know.

I'm very...

and brain power with the other people we've had there.

It's not like a smart phone.

The real question is whether or not it would drive that thing up the wall.

Miami needs to be driven up the wall a bit.

Yeah, that's funny.

It happens in the U.N. that really drives everything up the wall, let's face it.

The key is the U.N. You can't get anything.

Well, you can't get some good mixed up.

It doesn't matter, but you can't get into trouble there.

And Scali does have a potential for getting into trouble.

Get off of this thing, this fetish of the secret meetings.

Now that he's going over there, you know, from that thread.

Bob, if it comes up again, it doesn't make a goddamn, but it counts.

In fact, he's looking a little, we're looking foolish there.

Well, it has to be secret.

Well, there's no secret deceased of this damn stuff anymore.

This is Henry's ploy as much as they're even known.

It's got to be a come up that occurred to me.

You've got to, uh, feel properly.

I told you that in order to make this stuff work with the time-light thing, it had to be across the board.

You're the whole goddamn bunch.

It's over and so on.

I want you to enforce that with Henry.

you know, and, and, and, uh, this occurred to me, it's just, I hadn't realized it was this late, the year is there, and the year is, I'll have to do it pretty soon.

The guess is that in order to give us the needle, they might try to do it, give it to Henry.

If they did that, then Henry should not get the measure.

I think it would be a terrible reflection on it.

I mean, Henry, you know what I mean?

It's just, when you stop to think of what happened this year, these things, I mean, Henry's got to get himself in the proper perspective.

China may hate Russia and the campaign.

Frankly, I did.

Henry did not.

And, of course, Vietnam the same.

And they've just got to understand that.

Understand, I don't get to want the goddamn man of the year.

I think it's a total pain in the ass.

Remember last year you had to give the bastards an interview?

And I'm not going to give them the interviews.

But on the other hand, Henry is to be told, is to be ordered, under no circumstances is to cooperate.

Well, I can talk and direct, you know, and move him in the right direction.

I just can't get over the fact that he's gone over these interviews.

He has never done it yet, and I have never been on these systems.

and this and that and I'm gonna write something good and you read the goddamn piece and you read one sentence in it.

I have to, I just feel that Bill Rogers on this point, despite his own almost insane jealousy, Bill is riding on his judgment hand because he's spoken about it in other pages and I brush it off because I, but don't you think he is?

I think Henry is, that was what was revealing about the Italian.

We can't let this happen.

This is just wrong.

Do you have anything in mind?

Well, first of all, we've got to find out, and we won't be able to for a little bit, but we will pretty soon, what direction the time is going.

Oh, it's already the 21st.

They either have to give it to me or they're going to have to give it to somebody like me.

They'll argue that not giving it to you because of having given it to you last year.

I don't think they gave it to John Johnson to do it.

It would be, well, the landslide.

Well, combined, the landslide, the Russian summit, the China summit.

Progress of Vietnam.

Well, the conclusion of Vietnam by the time they come, maybe.

You can handle it with a New York trip.

You can be sure that they have a reservation for it.

We have to have the four bedrooms.

You've got it.

You've got the presidential suite.

I need another room.

That also puts other things into play.

If we don't get him, I'm going to put battalion in that cabinet.

If I had to get a guy, they'd get one by, you know, by just pushing an arm.

See, we don't have any other cabinet in any other time.

Where else would you keep, in other words, wouldn't you rather have battalion there than in,

Screwing up A to D. She had a good one, yeah, but we don't want it.

It's hard to believe that there is, it's impossible to believe that there is a good attorney.

You're true, isn't it?

I'll tell you, they really have worked at it.

I know.

Before, you know, try that.

On West, you're IRS.

I will assume that's done.

You're to tell me if there's any shift.

I don't want Schultz to pull a fast one on me here.

Is that it?

On this one, I'm going to have to see all the appointments now.

But when I made a thing like Webster, I just want to be sure it's done.

And we've left the Brennan thing now to go, you know, so I know that it's just something that's good.

The one from L.A. is an Irish Catholic, which was one of the reasons for, you know, plus that's a supremely qualified young guy from H.U.

But he could be H.U.D.

or transportation.

Yeah.

Superb.

That interior that you can't put in there.

No.

No, because he's union law.

There's no way that he should be.

The guy we're talking about, he's the super generalist from outside that can do what he, but would he come in and be like Pete Peterson?

No.

As far as I understand it, no.

I've got to check.

But we've got to interview him.

We've got to check him out.

One thing you've got to do is check out.

I was wondering, I was a little concerned about it, much as I like, but I kind of had the feeling that he's going to want to run his own show too much.

And I just wanted to be sure that he's nailed down with regard to the fact that we're going to change all those people in this department.

The other thing is, well, I want to be sure that John

makes that terribly clear to Morton that that's all changing, including that son of a bitching park service.

Morton is not about to change anything, is my view.

The general feeling that Morton wants to stay, is that correct?

Yes.

If nobody's checked it, we don't know.

They will before he comes in.

You don't know whether he's going to tell me because we're going to have to offer him to stay.

One thing you should know before you see Rockefeller is that he had dinner with Mitchell last night, and he's in great shape.

Yeah.

Very good.

Except he did raise one thing.

He said he had heard over and heard somebody somewhere heard something.

I'm sure he does.

That Elliot Richardson was being considered for Secretary of Defense, and that he wanted John to know that he thought that would be a very bad appointment.

But in his dealings with Elliot, he finds him totally untrustworthy, cannot be trusted.

And secondly, that he would be running for president.

And that would be a very bad thing to have a secretary of defense.

Now, John knew it was Henry.

Henry, of course, is a total son of a bitch to do this.

Oh, good.

I don't know.

Henry did it.

But I can't imagine.

Who else?

Nobody else knows we were doing it.

Who else knew it?

Nobody.

That's right.

Except Erland and me.

Well, I don't want to.

I just frankly am.

I really shouldn't have to see Rockefeller.

I mean, it's getting tiring anyway.

Well, he is not going to raise the bill.

It shows he wasn't.

You should not raise it.

That's the only reason he's telling me is don't.

He said just stay away from the Secretary of Defense.

And don't raise it so you're in the position of being...

I talked to Colson briefly after there, and apparently he's in good shape about his situation.

Very.

And, uh...

I told him.

He's anxious to get it announced quickly.

I told him that we can't announce the White House saddle and we couldn't do it.

So we got the others.

But you agree?

Absolutely.

Well, the worst thing that could happen to him is to have his announcement come out.

We want his announcement to come first.

Everybody's insane.

They all live there.

That's just the big thing.

Yeah, he was pushing last night for a quick move on his.

And I said, oh.

I think it will be useful.

I think we've got to force it though.

Now, of course, we can get him out of here in 60 days for his own good and our own good.

I think it would be a terrible loss to hand him down in one of the departments at this point.

And if he won't take this other job, I will

I will promise him, you can't jump Malik to cabinet right away.

I know he figures he should be Secretary of Interior or something, but everybody figures he should jump right up.

Bob, you just can't quite do that.

But you agree, right?

It's like, well, I think you can.

I think there's, I'm not supposed to say Malik to cabinet, but there's some real minuses to it.

You know, there is for me.

But Malik would be, I think, I think Ash needs Malik.

He needs him very, very much.

and that we need to mount it with ash so ash gets to know what the hell, where the hell that has worked.

Yeah.

Get out of there, as I understand it.

He is expecting to return.

Well, I guess I won't have a long bullshit about it.

I don't really care.

Science is the only one that matters.

I'll ask him about it.

We'll work it out.

I'd be glad to.

Yeah, that's the right point.

I'm down first.

I'll be an actual committee member.

on Bush is that we must set up his organization for him.

And I, of course, we haven't even discussed that one.

Because I was, I just, it occurred to me last night that after he's going to get Bush and all of a sudden he'll go in there and he'll have the same old assholes I have and the rest will be running again.

And we can't do that.

He must go in and clean the whole damn shop the hell out.

That's the other problem.

The worst problem we've got with him, which was the problem before we talked about, and this is very close tied to Jimmy Allison,

realistic, you know, the little fat guy that Roger Morton had running around.

But then you go right back to that structure again, which would be too bad.

I think Bush should be told, we've got new people.

We do have some people I trust in mind for that, and we sure do.

We ought to have some control.

I really am very excited about it, Bob, if we get Bush to do it.

And if they put Brock in and Barbara Connell, Barbara Connell, then we have a group of three, and I will be with

particularly with Bush, and we'll get the goddamn politics really going around here.

I'm trying to earn, I mean, to pound Buzz Hunt.

I'm sure Buzz understands that his department's going to get some reorganizing.

I hope you will continue to warn her against using the term super cabinet.

et cetera, et cetera.

He falls into it in all of the conversations, and so does Schultz.

I just don't want them to use that.

And the buts started playing that back to me, and I said, no, that is what we're calling it, as much as you are.

I know we're happening.

It's a dangerous thing.

I know.

I think they just, I don't know what term we're going to use, but counselor, you've just got to go back and use counselor.

It's the right term to use.

It's the way to...

Counselor to the president for so forth.

That's right.

And that makes it look like a harmless thing.

There's nobody who can criticize from Congress.

They can't object to you.

So I think this man is counselor to the president with responsibility in these areas and comes across other things.

And it's not an exhibition.

That's the designation.

You're selecting the man, not the job.

It's organization, by the way.

I don't quite understand.

Do I understand that we're moving Schultz into the White House?

Yeah.

What ground do you move him in?

As assistant to the president for economic affairs.

Yeah.

As assistant to the president for domestic affairs.

What's the difference?

Completely different.

That's the whole idea, the basic idea of the split is economic, domestic, and foreign.

We'll roll.

The others don't.

That's what I mean.

No, it covers part of domestic and part of foreign.

Smartly sure.

Anything you will follow through with, you will today.

You've got to set the organization up.

This is your dance.

And the shape is going to be a hell of a hard thing to do.

You're going to have to have a hell of a tough talk with him when he gets back.

What would you have in mind as to how you would proceed?

So after he gets through this Vietnam cycle, I think, well, maybe not.

And it's got to be reorganized.

We've talked about it.

We had a couple of good sessions at Cuba's game.

I'm not talking about reorganizing.

But that's the starting point.

And then you go from there into the east.

I don't think you take any bucking from Henry anymore.

Only, you know, we took it before.

And then my view, unless you want me to coddle it, my view is, and I'm doing it now, I just don't put up very hard language.

When he gives me this shit, I say, fine.

That's right.

That's what you're going to have to do.

You can always go back and solve it.

I'm not going to do it.

We're not going to do it.

But I think you're better off if I play.

Also, Bob, there's got to be a time when Henry has to get out.

And I'd like to get him out, frankly, in six months.

He's playing so many different games, and he's also becoming so insufferable in his relations with other people.

That's good, that's good, that's good.

He's confusing his job now with this.

If I find a rational time, you know, when he isn't all hung up about something, I think, or he uses the time when he is hung up.

You know why he's concerned about Rogers?

Real concern.

He knows it's going to cause him any trouble, right?

That's right.

He knows that that apartment's reorganized.

He knows that.

No, that's...

At least his argument is that just now that all that can be reorganized, that's not true.

Well, we know that.

We are here because it can't be reorganized as long as Rogers is there, because if new people will be Rogers, people will be Rogers.

We're picking up jumps.

If a Rogers jumps the middle level, he sets the lower people directly to him and ignores the undersecretary level, but we're not doing it that way.

That isn't happening.

It's real argument.

It's just like Rogers' real argument in reverse, who gets credit.

gets out first, who wins?

That's what they're really winning.

Rogers wants Henry fired first, and Henry, Rogers wants to outlast Henry.

Henry wants to outlast Rogers.

That's the key to this thing.

It's really deep down, that's the thing that's eating Henry.

And Henry's not deranged anymore with me.

Now I have not, you should know, I have not indicated to Henry any timetable for Rogers.

Don't ever indicate.

So he doesn't know that I have a... Don't ever indicate.

He says, how do you know he'll leave at all?

I say, I know he will.

I said, I know he will.

I had to put it this way.

Ryder wants to leave after he pictures some ongoing things.

I did.

When will those ongoing things...

I don't.

That's all I said.

You see, I put it that way.

Well, that's exactly consistent with what I said, so that's fine.

I purposely left it confused as far as Henry's concerns or what it would be.

What do they want us to do?

Just bring Rogers in and fire him?

On the basis of this change of administration, this is the time to move people out?

Do you think that's what we should do?

What do you really think?

I did think it was.

I think we've got what we want now.

All I wanted was to get him out.

I don't think it matters whether it's January or June.

We have to get him out and get control of the department now.

which you've got with your conversation.

But the other thing is, I mean, I'm able to hang on to it.

I'm going to have to fight for it to keep control.

Because Rogers isn't going to, you know, he's paid the service now.

He's on the mat now.

He's running.

He's playing whatever he needs to to stay.

We're going to do it back up.

The more I think about it, where the reason that I'm concerned with the Rush thing, I don't think I can offer Rush the secretariat.

That's right, yeah.

That's what I was thinking.

That's what I was thinking last night.

What I'm concerned about, you see, is I want to hold that to Common.

Common ought to be the assistant president.

I don't know, but I told Colson last night that Common is the man.

I'm getting this around.

I said, who are you for?

He said, well, you can't be it.

I said, well, who should it be?

He said, it's got to be Common.

I said, all right, work for him.

That's fair enough, you see.

I'm all for that.

And I'd love to work on that.

Well, I'm going to stay miles away from it, except that, you know what I mean, Ned knows that I have no objection, right?

But that's all, a few signals like that.

The point that I make is this, with Connolly, what is your honest feeling?

Should we bring him in as Secretary of State?

Maybe so.

I frankly think it's probably better he get the Assistant President role.

He may have a

Well, let's try a different part of it here.

I'm a little too strong on State, which I was going to suggest I didn't want to with the group last night.

On State, instead of bringing Rush in now as deputy, make Rush ambassador to Paris or something.

For now.

Well, just put him out in the field in a good post.

With the idea that when Rogers leaves, you got him on the bench ready to bring in the secretary if you want a weak secretary.

to just fill the top spot, but put Casey in now as deputy and leave him there so that Casey can get started and can get started with the right kind of stroke.

The problem is if you put Rush in now, Rush isn't going to do anything.

Maybe it still works and make Casey undersecretary.

They'll do it.

What would Casey be?

Casey would be undersecretary for administration.

Is that the man that Rush, then I would tell Rush to delegate those responsibilities to Casey.

That's right.

Rush will play that game.

That's right.

Rush is a ball player.

And Rush will get out when he wants to.

He's 62 or 63 years old anyway.

That's right.

I can talk to him.

I say, Ken, at the end of this period, I don't know what's going to happen when Bill leaves.

I just don't know if he does.

I don't know when he does.

But I think it may be.

Any time I want you in the second spot, we're going to have to play some very tough games in there.

And we need you to sort of smooth them over as we go here.

That's right.

Bill Casey.

I want Bill Casey.

And I don't want you to pick him.

I want him to do it.

And he's to have the responsibility.

And I want you to back him up.

He's to houseclean the State Department.

I'm just going to go right down the line.

I want you to take it under those circumstances.

Who are you going to put in there?

Who do we put in there?

Now, to Casey, you've got to commit that you are going to move the deputy in there.

Do you believe him as undersecretary for administration?

Oh, yes.

Absolutely.

He'll be the deputy secretary.

See, this is a holding position right now.

What do we do with the economic job?

We've got that open.

It's a nice one that we have open.

Well, you've got a thing there.

Ingersoll would be damn good at that if you want to get your man in there.

Or we can find somebody else for that.

Ingersoll's very good at Japan.

That's an important post.

What do you do with Alex Johnson?

Alex is out.

You're not going to give him a investor post?

We need Ingersoll to finish.

Okay.

That's the argument of the people that know the substance.

They say you can't put Alex back in Japan.

What screwed up there?

He screwed up.

No, no.

And Ingersoll is doing a good job.

I just think Alex is 64 years old.

He's going to retire.

I want to keep Henry though out of this business.

I don't.

Let me say one thing that's very important on these appointments, and I'm glad they're happening while Henry's not here.

I want these people not to talk to Henry.

Otherwise, you know, Henry will figure he's got a line in for them.

I'm not going to have that for them anymore.

He's not going to give us any trouble about wanting to be in the cabin or anything.

No.

I'm sure he doesn't want to.

No.

At least, from what Mitchell said, he's not.

He's in very good shape.

He doesn't want to.

John says, I do think he's very seriously keeping his options open for running in 70 seconds.

That's fine.

This is not good.

I think he would be able to come.

You know, Rockefeller's thinking of his age and reading books and so forth and so on.

He's your only fallback possibility at the moment, really.

You're going to talk with him about CIA, but not block it, is that it?

I don't think we should.

What do you think?

I'm just going to sit with her.

That's not a bad position to be in.

We don't need to block any of these stuff.

And just get his reading on that as a possibility.

I think that's where you want him, though.

I don't think it seems kind of silly to worry about him in the energy business.

Well, I, on second thought,

I think we should let Flanagan, as an inside man, continue to do a hell of a lot of energy.

Urban men can't leave that to some foe like, you know, Holland or Coe or any of those people or Whitaker.

They aren't up to it.

They really aren't, you know.

But Flanagan, I will give him credit.

He does understand this big international crap.

He really does.

Sure does.

He's a bigger man.

Great help to George in that area.

He is tougher than George.

And that's good.

And Flanagan will be very useful, I think, in keeping him exactly where he is if he's willing to stay.

And I've got it beautifully worked out because he's going to stay.

I say, look, as I said, companion in marriage.

You know, it works.

But we'll use Flanagan there.

But keep him on the energy thing.

We might keep him as the whole week up.

But tell him, keep a low profile.

That's the main thing to tell Pete, right?

Keep your profile low, et cetera.

Because as I told him, I said, Pete, time is a great healer here.

Let's suppose he stays in that thing for a year.

I would not then have the problem of having him go up for something.

But you can't do it when it's so fresh in their minds.

The scandal thing is too fresh in people's minds to just throw down the gauntlet to the Senate right now.

That's the trouble with Colson, Bob.

That's the trouble with even our younger White House guys, and it's the trouble with Flanagan.

Throw down the gauntlet.

That's my feeling, at least.

I don't quite know after that experience if you want to say anything.

Well, this morning was fine.

That's done.

Well, what are you going to say to her?

First of all, to the lunch.

First, I think the way I would start is I would suggest, and let me just get my thoughts out here.

I'd say, Kurt, we are

The President has reorganized the White House staff.

The campaign is over in France.

He thinks that – he believes that looking back over the past four years, we have had an impossible situation with the Office of – what do you call it – communications and the press office and so forth.

You can only have one person in charge.

That one person, the President decides, has to be the press secretary that is going to be sitting there.

That means that the Office of Communications

will be retained, but on a completely slimmed-down basis.

Don't tell him Colson's leaving.

Just, oh, I guess you can't.

I think it's better to tell him.

I tell him, for example, Colson's going to be leaving.

He's going to have to finish this up, and we're getting that office out, and we're getting this office out, and the communications office basically is going to be

Just that.

I understand.

We can then make it something different later if we want.

You know, if you hear idea bringing that high-powered call from Frank Dale, who Frank Dale is supposed to be talking about.

Right.

Okay.

Now, Herb, under the circumstances, you should not stay in this thing.

We've thought of the whole thing.

There's the cabinet position.

There's the bill.

But Ambassador to Mexico is the president's job.

In government, the president would want to stay.

On the other hand, I'll be right there.

On the other hand, if there's anything you want on the outside, you can have it.

Now, I don't know how Broker handles himself in these situations.

I haven't, I didn't go around for it before, you know.

Very difficult, but I'll go through that.

What do you mean difficult?

He'll come up with a lot of, he's a marshmallow.

So, you know, you get it all set and it squirts out over there.

Just say, yes, I heard it's been decided.

And frankly, it affects a lot of other people.

You say, what are you going to talk about Flanagan?

It was going to make a better story if Flanagan were leaving and Finch were leaving.

Well, you have quite a few now.

He won't care about it.

Don't even go into planning it.

He won't care about it.

But Colson will need something.

He hates Colson.

And Colson will be leaving.

We're not going to bounce Colson over.

That's a private life.

He'll be leaving.

Now, on the date of his leaving, what are you going to do?

You should make this as soon as you can because it should be at your initiative, not the President's.

And the thing we ought to discuss here is how to do it, not whether to do it.

And incidentally, the President is going to put in the new organization on January 1st.

Just say that.

January 1st is when it's put in, not January 20th, before the Congress opens, so that everybody will know.

Now, you should not let us say December 15th, because that's what we are doing.

December 15th, the White House organization.

Okay.

You know, I'm just going to say it's done here.

Yeah, I'll listen for a minute, and I'll say don't put the President in a position of argument.

I tried.

I tried because he's appreciative for that.

And frankly, because it is the President.

The President thinks that you should go.

He personally thinks that you would be very, very valuable in government as ambassador to Mexico, because we need a good ambassador.

We're going to put a new man.

But if you don't want that, the President thinks you will be, rather than a disposition and a downgraded position, which it is,

Which it has to be, because he's not running anymore.

I wouldn't offer the National Committee crap.

I don't think so either.

Yeah, but he is.

But he would be, he figured that you should be on the outside.

Uh, go to high school, or work with you online.

Good luck.