Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 229 › Conversation 229-012

Nixon phone call with Ehrlichman on Donald Rumsfeld

Tuesday, November 21, 1972 · 10:35 AM–12:44 PM ET · Camp David Hard Wire · 6 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Ehrlichman, John D.Conversation229-012 on Tape 229StartTuesday, November 21, 1972 at 10:35 AMEndTuesday, November 21, 1972 at 12:44 PMRecording deviceCamp David Hard WireSourceNixon Library record for 229-012 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and John Ehrlichman met to discuss staffing and organizational plans for the upcoming second term, focusing on personnel management and political maneuvering. The two men criticized the recent conduct of Donald Rumsfeld, labeling him an opportunist, and evaluated the power struggle between Henry Kissinger and William Rogers. They also coordinated strategy for an upcoming meeting with Nelson Rockefeller, with Nixon emphasizing the need to limit the scope of discussions regarding the State and Defense Departments.

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Also, let me tell you that it's good for them.
People are going to have a letdown when they're longer in the battle.
We always do.
And they'll enjoy it.
Well, it's good for their husbands, in a way.
Right.
The thing I was trying to say is that... Oh, that's right.
I really thought Rumsfeld's conduct was really quite surprising.
Well, I apologize, Steve, for that.
I'm sure Paul, I forget I was around and everything.
I opened up by saying, I'll support you for dissent.
And the son of a gun starts to say, well, I think all of me and the kids have been down and hurt.
You know what I mean?
Well, and what goes on?
It was 180 degrees from what he said down here in the warm-up.
I couldn't have been more surprised.
What do you think he's up to?
Actually, he's an opportunist.
And I think he just saw the whole thing and he jumped into it.
It would be damn nice to him.
Fortunately, he doesn't get anything.
There's just no cap at all.
So Peter's kind of like, what's this going to do?
Well, he has an unblemished record of disappointing me now.
That's right.
Damn.
Well, I just thought that was a pretty sorry performance.
It really was.
Because I picked particularly one.
I said, all right, I'll support you.
And then I'll offer him a cripple, bro.
Yeah.
That would be a terrible mistake.
Terrible mistake.
Well, that's it.
We went through this whole routine hunting down here.
I know that he just really took me by surprise.
What do you think you should do with the person?
I should have gone with the person.
Well, I think you should have said, well, it's obvious to me that the staff work hasn't been done on this.
Why don't we just, during this meeting, you get with the staff and let's see what the
You can usually work out his suggestions and then just kick this the hell out of him.
He isn't going to get any.
I'm not going to give him anything.
What the hell is there to give him?
What do you think, man?
Son of a gun.
I think he's been extraordinarily open-handed with it.
And the president, he consistently operates that way.
He's dominated the government.
He'll cut his nuts off.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
People see through that.
That's right.
Political people.
That's right.
Well, the idea is when I heard he's got a bunch of citizens to work for a year and put up a lot of money and then he'll make his mind up a year from now.
I told him he had to make his mind up in his own mind right now.
And I know I'm right.
Well, I know.
I can't imagine people working for him for a year on a contingent basis.
You know, but if somebody like Clem Stone or somebody's being asked to put up money, he's entitled to them now.
Yeah, what he wants to do is to wait, take a poll, and see what things happen, and so forth.
Well, he does that.
He's troubled.
We've dumped Don now.
I mean, he can leave.
Okay.
And he doesn't realize it.
I mean, I think some of these fellows must think that, you know, they... And we need them.
So the seller's market is kind of a...
Do you think we're doing that?
Well, on Rocky, just the main thing, don't have me bring up anything on the state or defense or anything like that, because Henry is, you know, is acting like a goddamn fool here, trying to tell everybody what we're going to do.
I see.
All right, I just don't want that.
And mainly, if you could just keep Rocky nailed down to...
something.
I don't want this new federalism that he wants to talk about.
I think you could spend the time on that and then send him on his way.
I'll keep him off the defense.
And I'm just not going to get into that anymore.
All right.
All right.
Just stay on the national security thing.
We're... Bob was telling me that it's good that it turned out that you don't want Rogers to move from now.
So I think
But I'm convinced, John, that Henry's own conduct at this time is so curious that just as well that you see that when I really analyzed both him and Rogers, they were both wrong.
Rogers really wants to stay on until Henry quits.
And Henry wants to stay on until Rogers quits.
I can throw it home and home.
Don't you agree that's really the heart of the matter?
Each wants to win.
And Peter can do it that way.
And Henry said, well, I'd rather you fire him.
Now, would that help us?
What is your view?
In the public, what is your view?
Do you think we can, Rogers?
I can do it.
I can tell you, Bill, I just don't think it's going to work.
Well, I have a story that somebody's a winner and somebody's a loser.
Basically because Bill is going to cooperate on the reorganization department.
The main thing is Henry is the worst defender in terms of picking people.
Look at his goddamn department.
The leaks have come from him.
But I really am disturbed about this conversation.
Well, I think this will evolve.
I think the Henry thing will evolve.
He's going to take care of himself.
I talked to Bush this morning again.
Yeah, I heard.
Bob gave me a report on him, and I think it's fine.
Okay, well, he's talking to Mitchell now.
He called me back and gave me an answer this afternoon.
Well, Mitchell should get him.
And then, of course, there's another one that is a curious thing to me.
No, but he's acting totally irrationally, and I think it's because he loves the Cadillac and the travel.
I heard about that.
One wants to say, you know,
It's most of the thing you could do.
Yeah.
I'll bring Rocky back about noon.
Yeah.

NARA Description

On November 21, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 10:35 am and 12:44 pm. The Camp David Hard Wire taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 229-012 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 229-12

Date: November 21, 1972
Time: Unknown between 10:35 am and 12:44 pm
Location: Camp David Hard Wire

The President met with John D. Ehrlichman.

       1972 election
            -Women surrogates [?]
                   -Post-election let-down
                   -Husbands

       Donald H. Rumsfeld
            -Recent meeting with the President
                  -The President’s recent conversation with H.R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
                  -Conduct
                  -The President’s support for Senate candidacy
                  -Interest in Cabinet position
                  -Previous meeting with Ehrlichman
                         -Change of statements
                  -Opportunism
                  -Cabinet position
                  -Peter G. Peterson
                         -Rumsfeld’s relations with Ehrlichman
                  -Foreign trips
                  -Previous meeting with Ehrlichman
                  -Tone
                  -Job offer
                         -White House staff work
                  -Politics
                         -Gubernatorial nomination
                               -Chances
                         -Supporters
                               -Fund-raising
                                     -W. Clement Stone
                                           -27-

                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                           Conversation No. 229-12 (cont’d)

                       -Poll
                  -Departure

      Second term reorganization
           -Forthcoming meeting with Nelson A. Rockefeller
           -State and Defense Departments
                 -Henry A. Kissinger
                 -New Federalism
                 -National Security
           -Kissinger
                 -Relations with Rogers
                       -The President’s recent conversation with Haldeman
                       -Rogers’ retention
                       -Rogers’ departure
                             -Timing
                       -Kissinger’s conduct
                       -Source of conflict
                             -Departures
                                    -Timing
                       -Rogers’ departure
                             -Firing
                       -Press relations
                       -Rogers’ cooperation
                 -Staff [National Security Council [NSC]
                       -Leaks
           -Kissinger

******************************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

            RNC
                  -Bush
                       -The President’s conversation with Haldeman
                       -Mitchell
                             -Conversation with Ehrlichman
                       -Departure
                             -Resistance
                             -Benefits
[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
                                             -28-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                                Conversation No. 229-12 (cont’d)

******************************************************************************

       The President’s schedule with Rockefeller
            -Timing

Ehrlichman left at an unknown time before 12:44 pm.

Also recorded on November 21, 1972

  • 155-022 9:10 AM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 9:10 am and 9:24 am.
  • 155-023 9:24 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Thelma C. ("Pat") (Ryan) Nixon talked on the telephone at Camp David from 9:24 am to 9:25 am.
  • 229-010 9:24 AM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Thelma C. ("Pat") (Ryan) Nixon met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 9:24 am to 9:25 am.
  • 155-024 9:25 AM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 9:25 am and 9:28 am.
  • 229-011 9:25 AM · 1 hr 7 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Camp David operator, Rose Mary Woods, John V. Brennan, and unknown person(s) met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 9:25 am and 10:35 am.
  • 155-025 9:28 AM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Rose Mary Woods talked on the telephone at Camp David from 9:28 am to 9:32 am.
  • 183-003 9:33 AM · 1 min — H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Camp David operator, and Lawrence M. Higby talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 9:33 am and 4:41 pm.
  • 155-026 9:43 AM · 4 min — Rose Mary Woods, President Richard M. Nixon, and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone at Camp David from 9:43 am to 9:48 am.

All 13 conversations from November 21, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 229-012, November 21, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/229-012 (accessed October 9, 2026).