Conversation 283-015

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How are you?

Well, I wanted you to know that I was in Florida trying to vote, but I just thought that was great.

And you said you'd come through, you know, and I didn't think you'd have to get all those votes, but it was a tremendous job.

Right, right.

Well, I'll tell you what, we've got the federal one, and I'm going to call Scott and really read it to him on it.

or the one that they can talk about over there.

Yeah, they should.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, I know you suggested it, and I think it was just a great idea.

Tell me, Jerry Porter was telling me that you knew that that bird could hit you.

Tell me.

What, 20 or 20 or something?

Oh, yeah, you have that.

Good, good.

Well, if there's anything down there, if, you know, there's a few, all the time, let's do it.

Good.

Right.

Tell them that you might even have kids.

I've asked about that.

And, uh...

I remember a lot of fellows from North Carolina when I was in law school.

It's really like speaking on a more important subject.

What do you think about R2 North Carolina?

Can you go to North Carolina?

Did you notice that?

Stanford, I couldn't believe it.

Couldn't believe, you know, Stanford's a powerhouse.

All right.

Get my airplane, take you down.

Fair enough.

I haven't been back since I left school.

You know, for a game or anything.

We'll do it.

But anyway, I do appreciate it.

This is worthwhile.

And I'm going to be, for your information, I'm going to announce the basis you need probably tomorrow night.

You'll keep it in your hand.

You haven't yet made the final decision.

And so that will make you realize that we're still staying to our guns.

Yeah.

Good.

I appreciate it.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Well, we couldn't have done it without you, believe me.

Okay.

Bye.

Senator Scott, please.

Well, the, uh...

How would your things play if you got the strong bench and all that?

How about the television?

I don't know.

But I think it's part of the, part of the operation.

It's just trying to keep them right out there waiting a while.

I don't think it's a hell of a day.

It's a big story.

It's a big story, yeah.

We can hold it.

Right.

And that's just right.

We wanted this to be played a little more.

A little more.

Right.

But I can tell you, it doesn't just have to be in the country.

It's in the country.

Everybody.

Harry was not in the country, so I'm thinking about how much he was for the trip.

But why does the president go, why does Rogers go, why does Lucy go?

Harry was in the country.

Well, they said, well, they could have said, I have a hell of a lot of experience.

No, but I mean, they said, well, they could have said, I have a hell of a lot of experience.

I had a couple of thoughts, Henry, that I want you to follow up on.

First, on this textbook thing.

I got a report today that very definitely

The juror came back and says he's got Taiwan.

And he's got the Japanese 90% lined up, but the State Department says they're now undercutting him by saying that we're not going to do anything on October 15th.

They shouldn't say that.

Are we, have we told the state to say such a goddamn thing?

You know, the point is, we are, we're going to put the AA in or something.

Who the hell tells them such a goddamn thing?

Those people are totally out of control.

I saw this today when we were leaving out in New York.

We know that this is just going to kill us in D.C. You're explaining what?

The two-china policy.

That's it.

They know us, but they think we're taking a breeze out of them and that we're humiliating them and that I'm going there pretending that they're angry at me.

Why don't you get a word to Walters?

Go ahead.

I guess you hate me for dying about this trip.

This is the place you travel to.

It's not an accident.

This is not probably there to be a day without somebody or some story on it from you.

It's probably just time to take a better look.

Kill their China thing.

They don't have to kill the trip.

They can just make it so unpleasant they can start letting in correspondence again.

They can start letting in Democrats.

They can screw up in 50 ways.

They don't kill the trip.

They start to kill the whole atmosphere.

This they're going to take in combination with all the other things they've already done as a deliberate campaign to show them off.

They can't take a present patient's benefits.

They asked me the other day to announce that I would go early, and I said, we can't do it until we've got the approvals, but they put out, as I told you, four to nine days.

They are very vindictive.

It's never broken the slightest understanding.

I wouldn't have told them.

Don't tell them anything.

Don't tell them about anything.

You don't want to get out.

Well, he should have been told.

All right, let's come down to this, though.

On this end there, when Walters gets back over, he should go right in and see the attorneys and say, please ignore all this.

This is a goddamn thing to do.

Sure, he can do it, but still do it.

They have to testify on an act.

I know, but they don't see the government.

The government's

I've done a lot of night yesterday.

I made a very critical decision about what to do.

And it repeats that day after day.

We had a meeting.

I will be at the effect today.

And I saw the Japanese faculty yesterday and I said to them, I want you to know we will do something.

They're trying to make it slip.

They've got to keep their feet to the fire.

They're trying to get off the hook.

And we're going to try to find the evidence again.

You're in trouble.

We're not, but we don't tell them that.

Let them think we are.

Of course, it's our best pocket.

Get a story about what we are going to do.

That's very good.

No, we haven't done that.

We just have to... No, I don't want the call.

I didn't want to close that.

Get it on the wire.

Let's, let's, let's, let's go.

Okay.

All right.

How about, uh, you know, wires or anything?

And then the word from, yeah.

But I would have had it from a Japanese fantasy canon or some other thing.

I've been thinking about that Rhodesian problem thing.

Your thought is to call and purge.

You're going to do it.

I want to direct you.

I, of course, do.

My concern is, if it gets out, then why not?

I mean, on the substance of it, Spike would turn it into an absolutely unbelievable foreign policy scandal, and they would be hacking away at us for months.

I just wonder whether we could get to a decision.

The fact of the matter is that the sanctions are coming up in the British Parliament for the new ruling amendment.

They're also close to a deal, as you put it.

With either one of these terms, the sanctions would last anyway.

If the British renew the sanctions and if the deal goes through, then the third amendment would become relevant.

And then we could do it.

I think we've got to get the state turned around on this.

That means particularly just

My attitude is that I know the state in the past has had this African policy and for two reasons.

Forget all the goddamn principles.

One is because they are concerned about the position of the United States among the American countries.

The other point they are concerned about is the domestic American political situation

My view is one, that the domestic American political situation should be completely taken out of their view.

I make that decision.

This decision is not to be made on that basis.

For your information.

I consider it to be detrimental to the American people to go this way.

You don't get any votes from the blacks and give a shit what happens to Zambia, get it from the others.

You see my point?

Absolutely.

The second point is, on the other hand, I do not believe that it is worth our while to do something for the Africans as against the British or somebody else.

The third thing is that

It's in the interest of the Africans, and I always said the same thing, I did say the same thing to Mr. Carner in 1953, for us to guide them in the direction of solving their own internal problems and get their eyes the hell off of the problems far away.

It does no favor to the Africans for us to play their game.

In other words, for the Africans to come in and see the President of the United States as they did the other day.

and to waste their time and my time for 40 minutes talking about a problem that didn't affect their own countries is an indication of the problem.

Now, I want this understood.

I think this policy, this is not my policy, and I just got to get it out.

Shall I do that by bringing them all into a meeting and telling them that?

That would all leak all over the government, but that wouldn't bother me either.

But I think we've got to understand that I, we have the South African problem.

Let me get, let me get, the trouble is that without strong leadership over there, you shouldn't have to do it because they're leaving.

They don't mind cutting you up.

Oh.

And why, if I agree with you that the Negroes don't have that, then it doesn't do, we don't gain anything by making a critical decision over there.

that we need to remind the women of how much it would cost us to mend.

And how much it would cost us.

Well, not just it would help to mend it, but when they try and amend it, that's where we should feel for them if we've done too much.

I just want, this is my policy.

I thought everybody understood it was.

But they come out and make a goddamn announcement on this thing and the Burger Man.

Now they should have consulted me on that goddamn thing.

They did consult you.

They were told you wouldn't do it.

What were they told?

Of course that's how the paper arose.

But did you pass it on to them?

I passed it on and what?

I said, I cannot do this without the president's approval.

I then wrote that memo to you on the show of these strong words.

I think I'm trying to say that the president's board has started to slay the hell out of this one.

And then they put out the word that state is for it and the White House is against it.

They have a story that's out of context.

The book is to use God and a lot of other people.

Then Rogers called to use God and said, no, everybody is against him.

Once you get the word to the government, I guess I'm going to be busy today, but I don't want this to fall between the students.

For us to really irritate the conservatives, we don't have to.

Are they going to be irritated by Taiwan?

Are they going to be irritated by this?

I'll talk to them.

It's a matter of all the news stories today say that this actually helps.

the UN vote.

And this is supported by the fact that he helped make it.

It would be very expensive speech to say, this cannot affect the vote one way or the other.

But if he says that, it must be up to God.

He helped make it.

He may have helped, but we, of course, you know, we're walking on eggs here, because if it helps us too much, the Chinese will think we didn't deliver on the other day.

That I don't mind, because they were disciplined.

They don't mind.

I happen to believe they're not even going to get it this year.

I don't want to...

They don't mind.

Is there any way you can get that message to them without having Walter carry it over to them?

They don't do that.

They don't want to do that.

Well, this thing I... Just to point out, I think the memorandum should go, let me suggest this, that the memorandum should go to them.

The President wants Joe and I to know.

that there will be massive speculation about this, that there are, that we are keeping our own plans very closely held, that we are, that we and our commitments will be kept to the letter.

You know, our, our understandings will be, will be honored to the letter by the, by understanding, we'll say understanding regardless of this trip.

I have to look for an understanding about something else.

But that we

that we know that he will know the American scene and reports from other government agencies with regard to the American position must be totally disregarded.

This is something that is not possible to control under our circumstances.

Yes.

Yeah.

Hi, Hugh.

Hugh, I was wondering on this vote today, on this pay thing, it appears to me that we really can't risk going forward with the, you know, with something to lose, because I'm going to announce the base due date this week, you see.

Now,

Isn't this one you can talk to death?

It seems to me you've got to have enough guys over there that long.

Yeah.

Well, fine.

Good.

Well, you talk to Tom, and of course, use your judgment.

But I can tell you that it would be a very, very bad blow just before I go on, say, tomorrow night, phase two, if the Senate slaps it down, you see, because it blows the whole thing, you

This is a very, I mean, the House acted, and it would be a, it would be a really, it would have a terribly shocking effect on the labor unions to get out and go run amok everything.

Oh, I know, I know, that's right, I know, I'm talking, but I, and I think they're fighting exactly right, but I just, I just tell you that because I'm going to go on the basis of tomorrow, that's the present plan, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll,

I saw a couple of your friends yesterday

I went over to this finance that, you know, there was a national group, such as Rollins gave to the people who were doing the dinner, and there was a state senator, a big tall fellow from Bunch County there, a good man, a great money guy.

Yeah, he was very impressive.

And then, and then, then Hilsum, Hilsum, you know, the National Committee of Finance is one of them, what's their name?

Dover, yeah, from, well, yeah, I guess that's it now.

Yeah, now there's another one from Pittsburgh.

Hillman, Hillman, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Hillman, Hillman, Hillman, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, well, I don't know how rich she is, but she's good looking.

Let me tell you what happened, they escaped.

But it came up to me proudly with her on his arm and said, I brought her over at my place.

We've made up.

And I said, my God, that's the day when you two make up.

So isn't that wonderful?

Did they?

Great.

Well, you know, she is an attractive girl.

Attractive.

Well, if you could, if you could.

Right.

Yeah, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does the, how does

He's a good man.

Well, yeah.

Yeah, an inspector's a man who's campaigned.

Well, inspectors are a great time.

Right.

Well, if you can handle this, Hugh, I would appreciate it.

I'd appreciate it.

Yeah.

At least I was sitting here talking to Henry.

He told me he was able to get you before the announcement.

That keeps him on the back toes a little bit.

Yeah.

We'll keep them on their back, though.

Okay.

Goddamn, though, on this, uh... Well, the contextual thing is one, and the staffer thing is another.

I just, just burned my tail every year.

They know damn well what we're trying to do.

Their strategy is when they know, when they disagree with you.

What was the president's strategy?

Then they try to wear them down and they keep coming back and back and back.

It is the most disloyal department.

I don't say this out of bureaucratic.

I don't borrow it anymore because we are doing, we are running these things now without

and just nitpicking away now at the trenches because of the big things they don't know about.

When you talk about a directive on China, what do you want to say?

Why don't I want to be the sign-line?

I think we should say that there's no speculation as to the subject's government.

Because of very sensitive developments that may occur.

There's no speculation.

I think it's vitally important that there be no speculation.

Oh, shit.

All of the crises.

Well, now they think we're done.

Not just quickly, we're done.

You've got to get that knocked down fast.

I think that's the best way to do it.

All right, I'm heading knocking down.

I'm planning to fight you.

This is absolutely not the case.

This is your preference.

Well, I don't need to build it up too much.

You should do it.

You're all speculating.

One of my discussions.

You're all speculating.

It's totally unwanted.

I wouldn't get into specifically any of that, but then they'll say you're trying to discover Peter Lee and stuff.

It's indelible.

But they can only think that either way, I'm a tribute for the people not in control of the government.

Either way, they look bad, they make sure they're going to try to counter it.

I could have him sit right on the seat.

Maybe you have to do it more directly.

Any tactical situations, that's right.

President's trip and nothing else would be a subject.

Any current tactical situations?

put it that way, any current technical situations.

Any current technical situations.

He's going here to discuss the President's trip and nothing else.

Good.

This speculation is totally without foundation, in fact.

I don't know.

Walk out, and without waiting for a question, you often should say, I have another story here, and deliberately knock him out.

Don't you think you might do it that way?

Certainly speaking, it seems to me that your story played a whole lot of beauty.

At the right, you don't see God.

exactly what I told, not as hysterical.

Next week there's supposed to be a sensation, which will go on about everything.

But this one, you know, will happen.

It's going to be a long day.

We have to wait.

His idea is that once the president goes, the son of a bitch was to die.

I'm not going to text him.

It's the president.

Kennedy and I had done a tent of this.

Harriman, uh,

It would be uncontainable.

But I think what LaBrie said the other day, you are doing things that Kennedy was dreaming about, what he was dreaming about, what he wanted to do, and never managed to bring on his diplomacy on a grand scale.

And he said, the President is doing things that Kennedy was trying to do and never brought up.

It's like they haven't even shown anybody's presence in American history that he's achieved.

Because now we're going to be able to read some truths that are going to get us all to believe them.

Assuming it's a very delicate construction, any of these drums gets knocked out, the whole car, the whole car is going to fall down.

We have in the Chinese, the veterans, we have in the Russians,

I want him kicked.

I don't want him to goddamn sleep in part seven.

I'm talking to you this afternoon.

He needs to be kicked right in the ass.

I'm seeing his body minister today.

He's been killing for many years.

.

If it does not go, I will publicly back

And the other thing, as a subsidiary of Harry, is the fact that he put in two or three votes from the blacks all day long on the Taiwan thing.

Let me get it out of the way.

I think I know him quite well.

Right, sure.

I'd just say that we've appreciated his great support, Harry, and that I, and that as a matter of fact, you can just say I want to tell you privately that the president was very disturbed when his statement was made by Stump because he would say,

And please don't put this up, because we don't want to have a public fight about it, but I know that the president has told me, he said about Mr. Bergman, that it was the right approach here.

But then if you came, a little ill, he'll understand.

Right.

And if he doesn't, then by God, let's, we may just change the signals and support the goddamn plan.

Uh, I think it will go through to the opponent's report.

If we get out of the way, from the middle of November on,

I think there's a pretty good chance of that.

Well, then, then, then, then, but I mean, I'm afraid right now they may bring it up still.

No, no, no, he may withdraw.

Okay, good luck to him.