On October 29, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, John D. Ehrlichman, White House operator, George P. Shultz, Manolo Sanchez, unknown person(s), and John C. Whitaker met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 3:20 pm to 5:16 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 302-018 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
You ready for me?
Yeah.
He's really trying to cooperate with all of us.
He wants to make his trip to be successful, therefore wants us to live in Surgeon Act before he goes on Latin America, which is correct.
We should try to do it.
Oh, I've got a bunch of just cats and dogs here.
All right.
But cats and dogs have to be handled.
Kunzik is, as you know, anxious to be a federal judge.
Oh, hell of a loss.
Well, I've held it up.
It's good to be a judge.
Yeah.
I've held it up.
There's no thing on the court of claims that you get his tongue out a mile.
And I've asked the Justice Department not to give it to him.
You want to have him come in for me to tell him that I just need him in the other spot?
Yes, can you do that?
I will give him, frankly, that he has an absolute commitment, but he can be mentioned in a court of law.
He's very able.
I have total confidence in him.
You bring him in, I'll tell you.
You trot him in on Monday and say that I want to talk to him about it, and I'll say, no, you kind of let me know about this absolute commitment.
and get them judged at all.
We would do it at a time early enough that we'd get it confirmed before the election, too.
Well, that's obviously his concern.
Well, how long do you think it would take?
Well, there's a lot of folklore on this, and I don't know the answer to that.
The Justice Department board is saying we can't get them up this year.
They may not be able to get any confirmations next year because of the political ones.
Oh, boy.
I mean, that's maybe his problem.
Well, I wonder if you can't put this on another basis.
that his being at GSA may make the difference in this election.
And I believe that.
I agree.
We're going to have to put some money over there.
And that win, lose, or draw, you're going to look out for him.
He's fast enough on his feet, I think, that he'll recognize that you can influence his future, whatever happens.
He knows pretty much he can't do it, although a lot of you live in Texas province.
I understand that.
As far as you can, I think you'll still be able to shoot one or two silver bullets, regardless of who takes them.
But I think it's often important.
Oh, yes.
There is certain power, don't you think?
Yeah.
There are certain appointments that you may have to deal with instead of cutting.
I realize that.
And also that he now feels there's a chance to work with an intercutter when they turn.
I talked to him about this once before.
They didn't print the approval form, but they did, don't they?
They waited.
They waited, yeah.
He said that they waited a couple of days.
I think they want to send Muskie.
They must have made, what my view is, they must have made a command decision.
Maybe Muskie ain't going anywhere.
And, and, they must be looking for somebody else.
No, I wonder.
Maybe they'll get him a Lindsey ticket.
Maybe see Newsweek and have Lindsey in the cover.
They're crazy enough to do what they want.
Lindsey's going to be nominated now.
Don't you see what I mean?
Yeah.
They, uh, they just might sit there, I can call them and just put this, put them together and I'm like, yeah, all right, maybe Monson's gonna go, let's get somebody else who's gonna be, can't be helped in the alley, maybe Lindsey, maybe Teddy, you know, uh, I don't know, I don't know how the post-conflicts are gonna take it, but, you know, it's not bad, I'd say, on the fine line.
He does very well in the social section, but he doesn't do very well in the news section.
Yeah, it's all right.
I don't know.
Anyway, it's about their earning of the coal, isn't it?
Yeah.
Don't you agree?
Absolutely.
I'm going to see Gene Patterson.
He's gone from there now.
He's not the managing editor anymore.
What the hell happened?
Well, he left, and I don't know why, but he's down at Duke.
Duke?
Yes, sir.
He's teaching school.
He's teaching political science.
Oh, great.
Well, he's smart as hell.
Gene Patterson has left?
Yep.
I said, that's the reason I'm going down there.
I said, look here, you know, we know you don't like us, this and that, but you must have respect.
And we'd like, you know, a little, would you like to be in administration?
How about that?
I'm going to see him in a month.
I've been corresponding with him.
I wrote to him when he left, and he wrote back, and so on.
And he's invited me to come down, spend the night, and talk to these students.
Good.
So I'll see him the first week of December.
When did he leave the post?
He left about two months ago.
Was it a shake-up?
Well, it was very quiet.
There was almost nothing printed around him.
And I've never had a chance.
He left town just like he was on the run.
What if he had a fight with the old woman?
That's my hunch.
Now Ignatius is out.
Who is he?
He's the president of the corporation.
Paul Ignatius.
What the hell did the running post say?
Well, I think Ben Bradley did.
my secret hunch.
Well, Ben Bradley is very close to McKenzie.
Well, I want to see Patterson, and I want a chance to sit with him and find out what's going on.
And my best chance of doing that is to move out and create some of these housecasts.
And, uh...
Pardon me?
Yeah, I can't work it in, really, for an overnight until the 1st of December.
That's a very good idea.
That's good.
Thank you.
So I like the idea of going to a college campus to a few of our people.
We may find that the Chinatown and everything now and up here, I think, well, I sense that we've got a college youth, of course, but we, as a result of Chinatown, are doing better among that group than we were previously.
You notice the age breakdown and that must be full.
I'm surprised.
Biggest inroads were in the low brackets.
You mean low age brackets?
Yes.
Not low income?
Oh, no.
Oh, low age brackets.
Yeah.
Low age brackets.
That's right.
That's where you pick up the molar.
Shit.
That's probably...
I would assume so.
And they probably figured that... Or activism, or activism.
Well, you and Muskie are about to push on most domestic issues with Leon.
And that Negro thing didn't help him a bit with Leon.
No, they would think that... That's right.
They're all offended.
All across the spectrum of the political persuasion by his saying.
That helped him a little with the heart.
I noticed he picked up the labor... A little bit in there.
He knew what he was doing.
Well, anyway, I will sound off Patterson.
Good.
That's a hell of a shift.
Yeah.
Well, I think gravity has made some moves without knowing.
I say this after I see Patterson.
See, you know, when it comes off, it's not like it matters to me.
You know, there's a good constitution out there.
Washington Post.
And then to be a teacher at Duke.
A teacher at Duke's not a bad place.
It's very well, you know.
It's a nice house.
But it's out of the sweat.
Oh, any teacher's out of this, man?
Teachers at Harvard are out of this, too.
I think we know.
Well, anyway.
Okay, so that's Kunzik.
H.R.
1.
Before you leave that part, I'd give you, since you've covered it, how do you handle Eddie's stuff?
Just tell him to get the hell out of the way.
Right.
Well, I didn't talk to him.
I talked to Kambach, and I told Kambach to get him out.
And then I called Dan Adams and asked him to give Eddie a job.
Got Eddie a job?
Yeah.
We put him in the environmental.
They've got a new environmental department.
And...
I told him that that's where we wanted it because Herb told me that that's what he was interested in.
And I said he would.
So he certainly qualified.
Yeah, no problem.
And, of course, Dan knows him and likes him.
And so it was a match.
That, I think, is on the track.
We still know him.
Yes, he's still on payroll then.
We're going to go.
Long is playing the same game with the Democratic leadership on welfare reform that he's playing with us, which is that he won't tell them what he's going to do.
And he's now got them talking to themselves.
Mansfield probably had a deal with Long, so he announced that welfare reform would be the first order of business on the floor when it came back in January.
Long is now telling the papers that they'll be willing to get the bill out of committee by March, which means he's good.
Yeah, in fact, I think that's about right.
It was March.
Well, I don't think it will come out.
Now, Rivikov has an alliance, was in the paper yesterday, an alliance with 13 governors.
And they are calling for a $3,600 minimum going up to $4,250 over 30 years.
And while liberalization, Elliott was quoted by the New York Times yesterday as saying, well, we'll have to take a look at it.
But I called him and said, that was the wrong thing to say.
He said, well, I didn't exactly say that.
I said, Elliot, within the next five days, you've got to make a speech on this, in which you stick with H.R.
1 and you repudiate Rubicon.
And it was a long pause.
But he said, all right.
And so it's hard for him.
But he knows we can't go for that.
That's his reality.
Because for that matter, it would be worse than having to be told.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It'd be a delicious symbol if we could get one down here that's a giveaway.
I'll say it's putting a lot of people on welfare roles.
A lot of people that work hard to get this amount of money are going to be penalized.
Yep.
Anyway, that's where that is.
And every day that goes by, along goes something a little bit.
It's just a possibility to keep a hand on.
Government reorganization.
We've got some chance of getting the Department of Community Development.
In order to do it, we're going to have to woodshed Romney, Bolby, and Hudson, and get them to get them to reach down into their bureaucracy and really take hold on this.
As it is now, they're all leaning on their oars.
The White House is doing all the work.
So Krogh's been following it.
I have a mental.
He'd like to set up an appointment for the three of them to come into your office for Krogh and me to explain to them what they have to do.
He's sort of in your presence.
That's good.
Give them a reason to come in.
And they'll be in.
And then we'll program Colson and McGregor as to what they can do to help this thing.
And we can at least move this ball some.
If we don't do anything, it's just going to lie there.
Fine.
Before you go from that, can I get back to the heart of the thing?
It seems to me that if we could do it, if the other guys could stick around, the best choice is the 40-year-old.
I have a feeling that it's so unusual, and it's a young guy, and you've got a lot of friends, but I'm afraid, what could you tell a tall man?
I don't know what you'd tell Pompey.
You'd tell Campbell to help him when he goes home.
That's right.
Pompey might quit, I suppose.
I don't think it would make a room.
Would it make any room?
Is it all that bad?
No.
I don't think so.
The department's working on it.
Actually, you tell the others that you want him to assemble a fine young team and shake up the Department of Agriculture and give it a new modern image and all that sort of thing.
It ought to be.
See, my problem, John, with Pompey, you know,
Well, first of all, the southerner won't do it for others.
Palmby, Palmby won't do it because I think he's smart, able, all the rest.
And I wouldn't mind having him in if he's going to stay, but I think he's going to leave.
But I think Palmby, as I said, he's more hardened without hardness style.
Well, it's like having the smartest guy in the world with a big facial disfiguration.
No matter how bright, how able he is, he isn't going anywhere.
The reason he isn't is that people just don't like his appearance.
And I think this guy is kind of in that boat.
He looks, he just looks negative.
And that's the problem.
That's the problem.
He looks negative.
Yeah.
Now that'll fit with a lot of 65-year-old farmers.
But that isn't what we need there.
We need a guy out around the country.
A young guy.
Out in the roster.
And this... Now the other one is that I...
I like Johnson, too.
Yeah.
I could buy him.
Which of the two would you take?
The young guy.
All right.
Go for the young guy.
Johnson is more of the same, in a way.
Yeah.
He'll fit very comfortably into that bureaucracy.
He won't get a play.
He won't symbolize anything.
He doesn't have any pluses to him.
You see, the thing I like about taking these young guys and pulling them up, it's sort of like the Rehnquist thing.
I like to take unexpected ones.
Now, that's another thing I wanted to tell you.
I have very definite ideas, John, about what we can do about the court appointments after 72.
In other words, then we can take unknowns.
I mean, people are working for great confidence and young guys.
And for that matter, I don't know if we'll ever find a gal.
But I want you to do one, an all-out search
Do it now in case something happens for a woman.
I don't know if there's any other one.
But more important, I don't think I'm going to have a woman.
I want to have on salvo the guy that we can have now.
Smith, of course, has got to be on that list.
He's a possibility.
Or it's another corporate lawyer.
But you must, I want you to look around the country.
And frankly, in the administration, there's somebody else who meets the quality of excellence and so forth.
But I mean, let us suppose that Douglas Keels holds down.
Right.
Let's be ready to go.
And I think the experience shows and maybe, you know, .
Oh, I think .
Oh, he's going to make it.
He's camping out up there now.
He's sitting up in the vice president's office in Kaplan and seeing senators working full time at this thing.
And Garland tells me that his civil rights friends are fading in their opposition.
Well, no, this guy's not a racist.
No, he just can't make the case.
He's a conservative.
He's a dad.
Well, then he has a right to be.
Well, that's the point.
That's the point.
That's the point.
Don't we have a right to have a conservative on the bench?
He's not a racist.
And of course Powell, nobody's really fighting him.
He's just going to be.
Everybody's afraid of him.
He's playing it very key.
He's writing letters to Bert Bayh.
He's releasing news stories on his portfolio.
He's getting all this out ahead of him.
And today's story was he has a half a million dollars in stocks at box.
No attribution to the story at all.
Just, there it is.
And by the time he gets up before the committee, there's going to be no surprises at all.
It's going to be an all-out event.
Well, God, if he doesn't have half a million dollar construction costs, he's not worth much of a lawyer.
I'm surprised it's important.
Really?
Now, let me know.
Really, I've got it.
Richmond is not a big town.
True, but it wasn't your right to direct.
In New York, we would think that was nothing.
That's right.
Good God, you could think it was nothing for a man that's practiced that many years.
Take Seattle.
The top paid lawyers in Seattle probably, there's one billionaire in a whole bunch.
I see.
They don't make that kind of things.
Well, of course, the New Yorkers are all tied into corporate stuff.
That's right.
I see your point.
Otherwise, it doesn't particularly create millionaires anymore.
No, it does not.
So lawyers are underpaid.
The only time that they'll do well is if they can get a license and activate.
So many of their law firms don't do that.
But you see what I mean?
I want you to have, I want you to have a name ready for Douglas.
I want to have a name ready for Marshall.
My candidate there is our young guy from Philadelphia.
But there may be a better one.
There might, incidentally, that's what would really be something there.
Because we've got to take them, anything to them.
I understand there's a very outstanding woman Negro lawyer in Chicago.
Look her over.
Now that we draw a Negro, you know what I mean, there ain't got to be an opposite.
You see what I mean?
That might be the way to get our woman.
If we've got to have it, let's have it.
See, I'll be a black woman.
See, justice in heaven.
Would you rather do that than have a Negro and a woman?
Yeah, that's the way to sell them to.
All right.
All right, but I do want you to do this.
I've got some ideas about the court.
As a result of this play on Rehnquist, which was my idea, I think that we have overlooked that possibility.
If a guy has got...
That guy's really got it.
God damn it.
Let's be fair.
I think if you start down the road and the judges arrest you, it's a tough thing you're going to sit down.
You don't have that many good judges.
It's a real mixed bag.
The really good ones on the court these days, the really flashy ones, their reputations are little.
Yeah.
Is that right?
Yeah.
The conservatives are pretty down for this.
and be ready so that we can...
It looks like one guy may keel over.
We'll put together a working farm and just keep it up to date.
This guy, Young, who worked with Dean on this, could take that over.
Good.
The only other thing I had that was kind of an interesting footnote comes out of this research and development work with the burgers.
It developed.
You remember we went through this desalination business and we were told that you put these things next to nuclear power plants and the two of them together do the job and keep water.
Turns out to be a bunch of baloney.
And we just very narrowly got ourselves sucked into a very... Well, there's no technology to support it.
It would cost three times the
permissible cost for water to do it this way with any known technology.
But our Office of Science and Technology here got us kind of out on a limb on it.
Fortunately, this little guy, Will Kriegsman, who has quit since and gone, is the fellow who threw cold water all over it and caused me to slow down on a thing.
But I think we have to be just awful cautious about this technology business, because if you get it, it's like anything else.
John, I remember when the thing was made.
Just to be sure.
Is this the result of our man across the hall?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because he's making everybody prove everything.
Is that right?
Yeah.
That must be unusual.
He's been very, he's been very tough.
And some of these things just don't prove out.
When I got his list, I was about
preliminary recommendations, I didn't find any solemnization on it.
I said, the president's going to be looking for that.
Where is it?
And that's how it's all developed, how it opened up.
And he said, well, I threw that out.
And I said, well, you don't want to do that.
He said, well, you can't do that.
So I asked for the file on it.
And in reading the file, it's very clear what happened.
Going back to our briefing the other day, as you were gathered by Kennedy and Bush,
Have you seen Buchanan's memo yet?
Yeah.
The whole thing?
Yeah.
And I sent it to you.
I haven't read it.
Well, he went through all this and had a couple of hours before he went to Russia.
He did get a chance to talk to Sears.
And he's written a pretty cogent memo in which he tells you what he thinks is wrong.
Well, let me tell you.
Why don't you tell me what it is?
Well, basically it is that you'd be advocating attacks
in an election year, and he would be favoring education when he thinks most people don't favor education.
And he doesn't think that the real property tax aspect of it is enough to counterbalance this.
Well, he could go for direct aid.
He said, maybe you get knocked over by the court, maybe you couldn't get it through the Congress, but you'd be out of front.
And he said, well, I kind of like the great big
The very thing is bold, bold, bold.
And I don't think the parochial thing is all that good.
I don't have anybody else around here that agrees with me.
But I think that's a very limited market.
And I'm strongly...
But leaving the whole thing up and looking at Buchanan's arguments against the other composer, do you make some sense of...
Yes, you know, I'm afraid of this business of a new tax and an election here.
I think the real estate tax thing is a stronger factor than pathways.
I think the education thing is a plus.
He thinks it's a minus.
He thinks people don't like what's happening in education.
I think that's right.
But I think also there are some things in this country that people think a president has to be for, even though they're not for it themselves.
Like blacks.
Blacks is a perfect example.
Environment.
All right.
And education.
Wonderful.
And they will penalize a presidential candidate for views that they themselves wouldn't hold.
That's my theory.
I don't know whether that's correct or not.
It's the way I think.
I don't want to be too progressive.
I understand.
You've got to be practical at the same time.
But it's the Bowie Pulpit kind of thing.
uh... where and presidential leadership and it's interesting that this is a this is a growing uh... criticism of our administration that we're not giving leadership in some of these areas like education like education now this criticism is not coming from our friends it's coming from our enemies but nevertheless it's finding its way into the my god we're giving leadership
and health and the environment.
So we have to do it.
Is that on and off?
That's on and off.
We could never do enough for these people.
But nevertheless, I put down this education thing as a net plus for that reason.
And yet, it's a minor issue.
It's number four best.
Now, Pat does not discuss the budgetary thing.
I think there's a certain advantage in this whole thing, in being able to present that budget-based.
But do we, though?
Yeah, we do.
On one set of assumptions.
And I would like to go for the whole enchilada.
I'd like to absorb all federal education costs with that new Ag report.
So we can come up with an extra six or seven million dollars.
I tell you, I don't want to argue this ex parte.
I'd like either Cap or George to be here.
I want to say something about the budget that concerns me very much.
Cap and George continually say they can make a full point of balance.
The trouble with that is they're making certain assumptions with regard to cuts that I don't think are politically valid.
And I think at some near date,
We've had to sit down with their cuts and go through them all and just cross off the ones that won't fly clear.
Like cutting out the school.
Well, see, that's the kind of thing that we're talking about.
And every time they say, look, we can get you to a full and pleasant balance, I want to say, with what assumptions?
And I've asked them for their assumptions.
And Ed Harper and I have been through them.
And we've told them that some of them just will not go.
Provide a fill fire.
There's a question as to whether we should raise taxes in order to get a conventional balance.
You know, the conventional balance still sinks a lot.
Sure, sure it does.
You have to give a blood, sweat, and tears speech for that.
You'd come off it, you'd come quite close, though, and you're going to pull apart that balance, you'd come very close.
Well, you'd pay him.
You'd pay him.
Four percent.
Yep.
I don't know how much of it is.
I've got a guy named Morris who's a hell of an analyst.
And I've had him working on this to try and tell me just how significant this is as an issue.
he downplays it.
And I've said to Buchanan and Colson, look, here's this guy, and here are his polls, and here's his analysis.
Now, the burger proof shit, what have you got to say?
And about all I can come back to is that they feel it in their gut, that it's a good political weapon to be out.
We certainly know this, that it works with him.
It's an issue that has great appeal to the Knights of Columbus.
Well, the professional cat
How much they lead, I don't know.
That's the question right there.
Peter Brennan, for example.
All right, but the KSC gets up in their white tuxedos and they cheer in the right places.
But I don't think that tells us what we need to know.
You've got to get into the polls, you've got to get into the attitude studies, and I don't know how accurate they are, but they indicate that it's probably only about 10% of the Catholics
who are moved by this.
And that's not very many people.
Actually, I think you show 7% of those who say 10.
And I don't feel that we can afford to cut off the Billy Graves.
Oh, I know, I know.
Well, on the other hand, if we go for the whole education push, we get it both ways.
Sure.
But I think you can only make one Knights of Columbus speech a year.
And you've made that.
I mean, if you go around and make it every week, then pretty soon the Carl McIntyres begin to be heard.
So I'm probably more skeptical than anybody else.
There's nothing else that is a big play on the circuit.
Yeah, the R&D thing would be a big play.
It would be very good.
But the other one that, where do we get the money for that?
Well, I don't think it's going to cost very much.
I think when we get done with it, we can do it within what we're spending now for R&D.
We're laying out $16 billion now.
And Magruder wants a new billion dollars, and I told him he's got to find it within the $16 billion.
So he's got to fight David for that.
because we've established that science is very... You've got to try to take something out of MIT.
Yes, sir.
I have your memo.
I understand.
This son of a bitch is against the defense program.
Why don't he subsidize his goddamn teachers?
Don't you agree or not?
Absolutely.
And that's precisely where I think we get this money.
We can be selective.
We can be political.
And we can say we're not going to subsidize that or that or that.
It's a billion dollars and we're going to do these new things.
Now...
The other thing is the thing I mentioned when Price was in there is a New Towns plan that is quite novel, quite radical, and would put you into the urban picture on a very acceptable basis.
In other words, without getting all the model cities and stuff.
With a financing device, a bank, a land bank, that would go in and buy up land
on behalf of the Pope, get it re-sown, make a new city out of it, and then sell it to private developers.
And then use the profits from that turn to go and do it again in other places.
It would be a quasi-public, quasi-private corporation.
It would never pass.
You would never see it happen.
It would put you out at the frontiers of the new town.
and solve some of those congressional problems that we have actually in some of these lands that are breathing down our necks for, you know, 2,000 and that and that and that.
Are we getting that national growth?
So that will play pretty well as a cognitively difficult issue.
Let's say you can't hold it down.
And they're pretty good at it.
And Kennedy's pretty good at it.
No comparison.
Now, Johnson, sure, there's the Great Society and all that crappy stuff, but he didn't make the massive shifts in revolutionaries and revolutionary concepts.
Well, some of the organizations are revolutionary concepts.
So is welfare reform.
And our health program.
So when you say, well, we aren't getting any credit for it, my point is maybe we can.
I don't think we can.
Well, then what's the reason?
So that it's not a negative.
It will be a negative one.
I think... See, if you can, an argument would be, and it always is, you can't out-liberal a liberal, so no question.
No question.
We can...
It's like, as I said, it's like a spiel spring.
If you want that spring to point straight out, and it's pointing over this one, you've got to bring it way over here in order for it to go back to where you want it.
We have to do ten times more
in this administration than the candidates have to get the same kind of mileage in every field.
And I don't think that's all bad, because what's happening is that we are actually changing the molecules in that spring to some extent.
And look what the Congress is debating these days.
They're debating all your stuff.
We've shifted the battleground.
That's true.
Now, we haven't had a lot of successes in the sense of bills to sign that have been in your program.
But an awful lot of stuff has shifted here away.
And this is almost the only way you're going to get your gratification out of this is in history.
But it's actually happening domestically.
When history is written about this administration, all the stuff that you've done in the environment for which you get no credit will be
I don't know if that's any satisfaction to you.
It isn't translated in political terms in 1972 very much, but maybe some.
But certainly, if you look at it from the standpoint of what we should be doing in the administration,
I think you're setting a pace that's going to be damn hard for him to succeed.
The Buchanan approach, and I'm glad to get his approach, is normally a negative approach.
I mean, he gets everything.
So I thought, well, he studied this.
He took time with it.
This isn't a snap government.
And then I've got some stuff coming from Colson.
Interestingly enough, Colson's four of us.
He took the opposite path.
Oh, I know you, but I don't have his reasons yet.
I think he sees this in terms of the buttons he can push for this thing.
The Catholics and the property associations and, you know, the different wads.
The chance of getting his hopes in the NEA and some of those things.
But he's got a paper in the works.
Conway, of course you've heard from him.
I've got to find out.
Grumling tends to be for almost anything.
He does.
Yes.
He tends to be very, very much for the big one.
Yeah.
I think that's it.
Like a reorganization.
He likes to move the furniture around.
I have not yet asked Mitchell for his opinion.
I sort of had him there on the basis of a stop on him, you know, just so he was in on the launching of the... That's something that we've really got to get at.
I agree.
We cannot go in there with a jackass budget that's going to make us politically vulnerable.
Issue after issue after issue, we're cutting this, we're cutting that, we're cutting that.
Well, I'm trying to force the issue on that.
George is going through the budget reviews right now with the departments, and when it's done on that, we're going to have a much clearer picture, and the same is going to be allowed.
These guys have, McGregor and his bunch, have come to the conclusion that we're going to have to domesticate NASA
They started out in that direction because I told them to, and they got off of it and figured, no, we've got to do it a different way.
Now they've come full circle and are back to it.
The NASA's the best way to do it.
So with all of us, we'll be directed by this law.
National Applied Science.
That's a great idea.
Yeah, look, if it works.
Well, we think now they know how to make it work.
So we'll be coming at you as it happens.
He's got these guys working nights and weekends.
And we'll have, I think, a good enough change for sure.
You have your problems, your capital issues.
Henry has his problems, right?
My capital issues.
A real quick thing.
Not in such bad shape.
It's a 727, I think.
It's a safe one.
It's good.
It's got all kinds of...
727, beautiful plan.
All we've got there.
That should be an apartment.
Jesus Christ.
And think how hard Johnson worked.
He actually had a lot of blue chips in the transportation.
Really?
Oh, that's terrible.
Down the bottom.
He was bloody.
He bought that thing through.
That's terrible.
It'll be, uh, the design standards of the other committee, and, uh, on the floor of twos.
Well, they're not judges, so you don't have any conflict with Englishmen.
Well, Renfrewish, the government's got a right to make money.
Renfrewish doesn't have anything except some land in Colorado, and he put his stuff in
trust when we came in, when we had, and how old we'd have to take away without finding out.
As far as ancient history and so on, I don't know.
As the FBI reports have spurred, the most thorough FBI checks the Bureau has ever done
It seems to me that the Taiwan being kicked out is not a good time to do Uber.
Yes, sir.
I actually think the time to do Uber, John, was the 3rd of January, the 3rd of his birthday.
For that time, a lot of flack located.
you will survive it, you know, but we'll be up to some other things.
And that kind of thing, everybody wants to see what it's up to.
So, that lady will be able to help us out with some of the things we did last year, and I'll just let her know it.
Now, we're, we're, uh, I, uh, see you on the podcast.
Yeah, sure, sure.
That's right.
That's right.
Click.
We're surviving that around here.
Right now.
That helped, that kind of reaction.
I think it came from what?
I think it was from Cole's field, the issue in Taiwan.
The letters and their conduct.
A lot of people, it's the issue in the UN.
Scott's got a brother, and he's putting a word out on them.
Which could they as well do, you know?
Oh, sure.
The fact that Israel's not complied with the decision to sell the revolution.
I see, yeah.
Well, why not bring them out of the work a little starry and decisive, sir?
Wouldn't that be great?
Yeah.
Of course, for legal, I'm just going to make this.
They'll certainly go after South Africa.
I mean, they said, just because of the blacks, they're going to put a spell there.
And the more that's going to happen, I don't know.
Everyone needs to be in a greater place to say, no, we're not going to stop.
We've got to just draw.
We shouldn't explain that.
We've got to do it.
We've got to do it.
We've got to do it.
We've got to do it.
He's fine.
Yeah, Stewart is the one that's been very helpful.
Well, I know that Joe is sick, too.
I maybe didn't tell him.
He didn't tell me that.
He said Stewart's had a miracle recovery.
His body counts are all correct.
He's within about 5% of being totally fit again.
He was on a drug, and they think that this cancerous business was the result of some rare chemical
interaction with his body and his drug.
And they can't explain it.
But his doctor took him off the drug and was giving him symptoms.
And then he had another kind of an illness, which created a lot of body resistance.
And that kicked him right over into practically normal recovery.
So Bill was feeling very happy about that and said if it weren't for that, he'd commit suicide because he's convinced that
Russians now have us right where they want us, and so on and so forth.
He's an interesting guy.
He said, now last year I wrote a story about value-added tax, and I haven't forgotten that.
You fellas are going to go for a value-added tax this year if I haven't vetted the money.
And he said, I think it would be the smartest thing you could do.
And then he said, if you're really smart, what you do is you couple it with a reduction of real property taxes.
You figure out someone to do that.
And he said, I think you made yourself a sure winner.
And I said, Joe, you don't really think the president would do taxes in an election year, do you?
And he said, yes, I think Richard Nixon is now addicted to surprises.
And that this is just the kind of thing he would do.
So that was about all he said on that.
I thought you were right.
And then what he really wanted to talk about was Conley.
And he was very high on Conley.
He's totally without scruples, but he's very ambitious, very brilliant, just the kind of man who should be in the federal government.
And he said that he felt that
The Evans and Novak story the other day about what Agnew said to Sam Devine and his group about bowing out would prove true.
Well, it's true.
It's a story that Agnew had a meeting with Sam Devine and the conservatives, and that they were expressing their confidence in him.
And then he told them that he felt that
if things continued as they were, that he would not be on the ticket.
George Shultz.
That he would be more of a liability than the asset.
That he felt he would be more of a liability than the asset.
He felt the conservatives had to be realistic about this and so on and so forth.
And I said, no, no.
And he said, well, I'm just telling you how I see it right now.
Alsop said, I think that that's a correct story.
I think that he does feel that way.
And I said, well, of course I do.
What does he think about that?
He thinks that he's a very nice fellow who's out beyond his depth.
Really?
Rather than he doesn't take him on with the typical liberal?
Yeah.
Yeah.
uh you wanted to go over some things that john and i just they're finishing in this department you're free now all right don't break anything up because i can do it in a half hour well take your time to finish your meeting because i'll be i'll be here all these guys walk on a medium
Well, the Agnew thing is, what's he think about that?
He really thinks that Agnew, in other words, is an awfully nice guy, which he is.
basically that it's too big a job for anybody.
That's what he argues now.
He's very high on comedy in a kind of a co-brethren mongoose relationship, I think.
He admires him for his brilliant political practice.
I think he's tired, Manolo.
When you talk to Alsop, he takes his great experiences out into the world.
Yes, that's right.
You hardly have to say anything.
He began telling me about Lyndon Johnson and Bobby Kennedy and their relationship and how Jack came to choose Lyndon for the ticket for all the obvious reasons.
And that Lyndon really liked Jack, but it was Bobby that he hated.
And how Jack used to call Joe Alsop in, just had to heal the breach between Lyndon and Bobby.
And how Joe would have them both over to the house, and they would have long talks, one and then another, and get things sort of patched back together again.
Later on, Jack would call him in again and say that he had to do it all over again.
Oh, yeah.
He said that it proved to him that neither one of them were really top-flight politicians.
He says that a good politician is like a plumber.
He has to make things work.
And he said, isn't there something really to be said in that respect regarding the Russians?
I was talking to all of them about it this morning, you know, here we've got this China thing, which is terribly difficult, you know, it's going to be a tough take to work this thing out.
The most, Henry Breyer once said, of course, that the most important thing about China is not what we agree to, but that we're going to death as it changes the game of Russia right after we go to Japan.
And a hell of a lot of other things that it needs to be done.
On the other hand, Rogers has this
Unbelievable.
I knew that he had this sort of personal vanity, but then it just beats anything.
I understand why Henry gets a lot of publicity, but the problem is that neither one, Henry tries, he says to George, but he has such contempt.
for Rogers, and Philly, and the state in general.
And he shows it.
Henry is not one of them.
And Mast is feeling very well.
And Rogers does the same, totally.
It's just absolutely ruthless.
He wants to bring down the whole castle on himself.
I am out of touch with that.
I don't know what's going on.
Don't get it, because you've got enough problem.
But the same problem, I think the same analogy with the whole, I think with Kennedy
Both Kennedy and Bobbitt and Johnson hated each other so much that they were put back ahead of their own government.
That's exactly it.
They can't do that.
Politicians have got to get along with the people they need.
Well, is that necessarily his argument about Connelly?
Because you'll never know what Connelly really meant.
He was being mean.
Because I was saying, well, he's been a while, he's been an overnight team player and so on.
He said, I don't think you'll ever know what he really meant.
He says, that's a mark of a good politician.
He's making this work.
And then he shifted over to his contracts.
And he said, that dude just ate away at John Cantor.
And at his ability to get anything done.
The Jew would be good.
God, yeah.
John Cantor.
Garbage and money.
I think it's really too early now.
And I, you know, I thought it might work.
Well, I think he really pulled himself out of that acronym problem in good style.
Yeah.
And I think he's got a, he's got a sort of equilibrium of things now that could go more or less indefinitely on his face.
He's got to clean things up.
So how does it all work out then?
I don't know.
I don't think any of us know.
It's too soon.
Maybe you'll keep your balance and just be prepared to go in any direction.
Dr. Schultz.
Well, okay.
Oh, that's it.
That's it.
Yeah, yeah.
Manola is out there having to come in right now.
I wondered how you were coming with your problem.
Oh, one thing I would like you to do is call Rockefeller on the phone.
And he's got a strong feeling that before Finch goes to Latin America, we should announce the surcharge on Latin America, if we possibly can.
Or if we can't, that Finch should postpone his trip until we can.
I think he's probably right.
And I told him, I don't know about our setup, but we were thinking, you know, about trying to work something up in our industry, et cetera, et cetera.
And I said, you're working on it, and you'd call it.
And that sort of listened to him in terms of, this is a great idea, and so forth, and they're working on it.
I told him he had a special problem with the Canadians, and he had to fit in with this whole pattern.
And that's what Dave was going to do.
So he fit in, and we talked about it the other day.
I wonder if we couldn't, in a sense.
It seems to me that the Latin American and the American is the same.
Just thinking in a different way, the context of the American and Canada, and that's the point.
Canada, not America.
We'll be sure to let Jonathan back in again.
We have some straight-forward questions, because we can get to the Canadian.
It could very well be that we were to have things for the Latin America, not that I'll let you know.
that it would, uh, so show our hands that we definitely asked the governor to have it done.
Well, we may have to think in terms of Finch, uh, doing the post-homelands trip.
I think Rockefeller has a good point.
Rockefeller, of course, caught Mariel on many of his stops, and Finch thinks he's going to give a hell of a rough welcome.
Well, he goes down there now, higher in full time than he did on the mountains.
Now, the other way in.
Who would look into it, George?
Get Rocky Spiel, maybe you could talk to him.
And then talk to him to see if you could postpone until... Or we could see if we could do anything with the program as such.
Yeah, I guess that's where the pinch could be.
Hopefully seeing you still listening.
So the pinch really shouldn't go down there, and the idea of getting a big public reception kind of thing, it shouldn't go down.
Unless you can talk to...
I don't want him, but you see, it would not be helpful to the administration to go down and run the antagonist's demonstration because he's a champion.
So that's going to be checked out.
So maybe there was a way that, uh... Shrugger removing it.
That's the whole point.
Whether there's a way Shrugger removing it would indicate in advance that, uh...
that we were considering or believing.
I don't know.
We're not looking for any particular concessions.
I know.
They're different.
They've been going to Mexico.
Yeah, it's the last stop.
It's the last stop.
That would be one of the first things we ought to remove.
Yeah, well, yeah, we want to tell us your area.
Do you have a special name?
Well, I think he's listening to, uh, Miller.
Yeah.
And, uh, well, uh, Morales, certainly, he's got a charling, but, uh, he's gone.
He's sort of taken over this, this thing here, and, uh, the bullies, and also the Golden Inver, which is quite, uh, cool and fun.
He, uh, after listening to all of that, because this is quite great, I'm worried he's going to die.
The point they make is that it's hard
the cost will get more expensive and one could expect that perhaps the market will come down in value a little bit as long as something is done in the French, the only way to do anything in the French is through gold.
That's the argument.
And even they are quickly driven into proposing some kind of limited convertibility.
Sure, that's interesting.
Well, Archer came out badly for that when he finally kicked off what he was for, right?
And it seems to me that we should avoid that by convicts due to a certain structure of the system.
So if you've done that, even if at some point in time we're going to get pushed into that, we close the action off by doing that in this initial round.
There's the round of settling the circuit arc, and then there's a lot further on.
I think I'd like some coffee, please.
Thank you very much.
All right.
Well, we'll leave this, George, with you then.
I'll hear all the questions.
I think you and Henry have gotten to have a damn good talk.
at some point about the European situation.
Henry may find that we have some political struggles in a couple of places, but Arthur doesn't realize that we have political struggles.
He thinks so, but I don't want to get into that.
I don't know.
He doesn't think it's all that.
He doesn't think it's quite as big as all this is.
And yet, the very issue that we've come upon right now
After our meeting, I gave John a little note that I had tried to talk to him about before we crossed the Andes, and he didn't have the chance to learn a lot of it, and I don't know whether he talked about it perhaps on his visit or not, but the suggestion was he could have
Yeah, I saw your four points.
Would you, yeah.
I was trying to say, would you do this, would you make that a form of a memorandum for the president?
I saw those, I saw that.
All right, you would like this as a memorandum for me to use?
No hell of a memorandum from me to the members of Columbia.
And all the people that were in that meeting.
After our meeting, and so and so, these are my conclusions.
And I just take what you've got.
One, two, three, four.
And I'll end the damn thing.
The main purpose of that is to get a guard.
Well, I'm cracking the key.
You're not going to talk.
Now, he has
I've moved around.
I've spent a lot of time with him after our talk.
He will be beginning to fuck Arthur Paul with the bear.
I know the bear.
Which was a surprise because I thought he was.
Well, he was.
He was.
And I've been trying to just sort of arch him around and get him into a little bit of a place.
And I would take this.
You know, we've got to save the peace now.
We've got to get going.
What about Germany?
Exactly how are we going to handle that?
Those are the kinds of programs that the President needs to have in mind.
And, you know, visit Treasury people and how they're doing in Canada.
Try to get that straightened out and tell them to share a piece of it about that before we get out there and do something.
And we could also do something
I've been ready to go.
I've got a lot of work to do.
By the time John gets back, we should have any fairly detailed plan worked out of what to do with that.
I think it's going to be done without a review of it before we make a particular decision.
At the same time, we can make business decisions.
We might be able to do anything about it.
You can make a really more meaningful trip if it's worth it.
You can say you're going there and you don't mind, you don't talk about it, and announce it after.
It's sort of something that you can accomplish.
So to raise that one, Rocky, have I given you a token of that, of your attention to it?
I told him that what we were planning to do is that we would like to move all the Americans.
But once we got the Canadians in, the Canadians didn't know what to do.
I said, well, we're not yet ready to do it.
I said, we've got our plan.
We'll separate it out if we could.
But he knows that we're planning, but I said, we're not ready yet.
That's when he said, okay, we've got to move on.
That therapy's already on board.
Rockets do the work.
And then we get down there and bend around a bit.
It doesn't want us to be in the administration for a long time.
It's just a cold connection.
I actually asked him to meet me the other day, and he said he's right over there.
And I said, all right.
And I said, all right.
Yeah.
And I said, I'm going to show you this strategy.
And I said, well, I'm going to tell you what I did.
He didn't spend much time on that this morning with me.
He showed me a couple of charts, and it was a little southward from there.
You know, we were hailed salesmen, you know, never reading a good series, and they have had to try and get it.
We didn't do so much, though.
26.6%.
That's what he said.
It doesn't seem like it's going to change the third quarter.
It doesn't also change the second quarter.
And it's discouraging what the statisticians are up to.
Because that doesn't seem like a figure that's reliable.
Thank you.
It doesn't fit the sense we have of what's been going on.
But on the other hand, I just said, well, I don't know about all of you, but I just put my heart on the argument that I was going to argue.
I recall that a little bit.
I've done it several times.
But I just wanted to remind him she was the guy that bitched about the bid in 1960.
I said, now you're in exactly the same position.
That's a good lesson for him.
That was good.
A good lesson for him, and that's a good thing for him to hear.
The thing, the way I think about our group is most likely, I think he has a tendency to say no when we talk to him, and then order to go out the door.
And maybe, I think it was a little while, he knows we're watching, and really, I think he can squeeze it.
It means nothing now, but it did mean something in 1960.
Now what the hell's the difference?
Milton's feeling is this.
He fell hard and went too far earlier this year, not far enough now, correct?
His idea is that he should be steady, but steady policy rather than... And off and on, obviously, with Archer, he agrees to that.
But he's overconfident, he says.
Well, he's overconfident because Archer is publicity conscious.
And he says, well, everybody was saying the Fed was running wild, as he said.
And that got to Archer, George.
That's exactly what happened.
So I think he went in with another board.
The board was going to get away from him.
So the fed decided not to run wild.
He wants the fed to look good.
God damn it, he's got to make the company look good.
I'm beginning to wonder if they were too smart to put him in charge of this committee.
Oh, Jesus Christ.
I'll tell you what, George, that's his committee.
When he brought it up, I thought, oh, God, he's made a horrible mistake because he's got to keep it straight.
dialogue.
We're going to hit him again when he gets back.
We should have another meeting in the park where he has
just very soon after Conley gets back to Oregon.
And we do get that, and I think they should be able to break it into two parts again.
We'll get the international thing, and then go hammer and pound on this other project.
Would it be agreeable with you, out of the international business, to first back up with Henry, and get Peterson first?
Then perhaps have a three-way meeting with Henry and Peterson,
Yeah, I know, and he doesn't, he doesn't mean anything.
No, that's the problem.
That was my fourth time through that, which was about two hours the first time.
I haven't heard from the school that I'm here at this point.
I haven't been here a chapter.
Even so, I thought it was good.
I think we've got to get him something to do, but I don't really think that he would come in and advise, frankly.
I don't really think that Peterson has enough balance to advise what to do in this case.
I really don't think so.
I think he just, because he doesn't, he isn't like, well,
I would rather, frankly, this.
I don't, I just really would rather, because of Connelly's concern,
I would rather not have a meeting with Peterson about this subject until Connelly determines it.
I really don't think I should.
I think Connelly is goddamn sensitive about it.
He's learned about it through poker, and that's not good.
I think, however, Connelly's...
I think the view of Peterson
And that's saying how people are going to wait on how they're going to get everything in a row.
Because I really want to hear it all when I hear it.
And then we'll have another meeting.
But you are enlisting Peterson on the side of the... What about Connolly's point that does he go too far in saying that we've got more to lose than they have?
He's not so concerned about this international reaction, European reaction, and so forth.
Of course, they raise hell.
Maybe he's right.
Connolly, thinking of the domestic political situation.
Wait it out.
Wait it out.
When you and John and I talked here, John's view was that we should go ahead and make a big deal.
Yeah, yes, on Japan.
See, but as I would gather, as I would gather, his deal was to make a deal on Japan and the underdeveloped countries, including the Americans.
Right.
And then to stand up to the Europeans.
Right, well, by the time we say that Japan, Canada, and the underdeveloped world, that's most of the world now.
Except for Europe.
I understand.
And then our problem is, you know, I can't help but believe
two of them, to work out some way to get rid of them.
And if we have that, we can isolate them in France.
And France is not going to hurt you that much.
If you've talked to Henry Baldwin, I haven't.
No, I haven't.
I haven't had the opportunity to talk to him.
Well, if you go on with your other subjects in this one, I'll get Henry over here now and let you whack up the Germans in Iran a little bit.
Would you like to do that?
to sort of get into it because he's, I want him to set his mind working on it.
He knows, you see, Henry's got more strong belief in the architecture, you know, he's got enormous influence, the so-called central bankers.
They've got that, Brown's got more influence than the central banker in Germany about what's going to happen in Germany.
Right?
Right.
So Obama knew that, and Brown knew that.
All right, come on over here.
I already told you.
I'm sorry.
It's a great thing that occurred to me the moment I heard it, too.
I was looking at that for the wrong person.
But here's the thing.
I think that's going to work out all right.
I think that the economy is going to understand.
I do, too.
And, yes, definitely, interest rates will come up.
And there's nothing anybody's going to be able to do to hold us down.
Archer's going to try.
Archer's probably going to make a wrong decision.
He claims that he is not as bearish on the economy as the council in Tahiti.
And the Fed's usually just the other way around.
The Fed's always bearish.
I don't know, maybe they're bearish when they want to expand the money supply, and bullish when they want to contract it.
You know, I must say, I make less and less confidence in people when they come in and say, well, let's do it against the Fed.
Yeah, they can literally try to rationalize what they're doing.
Well, the Fed has traditionally judged everything by what's happening in the interest rate.
Is that right?
And they feel if the interest rate is low, it's fine.
They don't need anything to price it by.
I was thinking a little bit about this question of people twirling things.
And one of those things he heard was some of his music.
That would be a cruel but good artist.
This rough guy couldn't control me.
Couldn't control me.
I, uh, I, uh...
The other day, I was thinking about this thing.
His name occurred to me last night.
I was just thinking of the administration.
That's where the only guy that's...
It really is just tough independence of organizing.
It's fine.
It really is.
I don't know what his views are over money supply.
I don't know.
He happens to be a leader and very important.
And he'd stand up to Arthur.
Oh, he'd stand up to Arthur.
And he's as smart as Arthur.
He's very smart.
See, the difficulty with Arthur, Arthur gave me some names.
And Connolly, of course, was, as you know, Connolly's a guy that's very deep.
He'll tell Arthur, that's fine, that's fine.
At some point, Connolly will say, I won't do it.
But anyway, Arthur was still abused, and he had sort of the right to accept defeat.
He was told by Hunter that if he checked his name with Connolly,
They're all right with Connolly, they're going to be all right with you.
Yeah.
Take Connolly on the spell.
And Connolly says, oh, that guy's great.
All right.
But then he comes around and tells me, he tells all of us.
Then he's too soft.
Well, but he wouldn't stand up to him.
I think that, now, Connolly has this, the guy he's pushing is Earl Cotton.
Did he ever mention him to you?
Well, he's the man of the American nation.
He's with the World Bank.
He's not very smart, but he's going to do what he wants.
I'm not sure that's quite a Stein thing.
I'm not sure it's a Stein thing.
You can do us more good there than part of you.
Merv is a woman.
He had taken a job at the University of Virginia.
And I talked to him about it.
And he said, in fact, that after your first term was over, he would have come and gone and taken up that chair.
Unless there's .
But he says if there's something different, then it's good.
Then he would .
Well, isn't the Fed a pretty good job?
I think he probably would consider that a pretty good job.
The only other job that I would think would have any .
He's essentially a thinker, not an operator.
He's a very good thinker.
And he's a vicious worker in writing.
Why anybody would want to be a member of the Fed, I don't know.
I think that's going to be a hell of a job.
Does it have to come from some certain part of the country that's involved?
They are spotlighted around the country, and there has to be a distribution.
But I think we have two, and possibly three, appointments to make.
But probably that could be .
Our conviction is that you want somebody to manage the Fed's affairs, to just administer the organization, and .
Oh!
Well, like a law firm does now.
You know, the lawyers used to run, the big law firms used to run and have lawyers, you know, be their business managers.
Now virtually all the big ones, I mean, if they have 100 lawyers or more, you know, hire.
a non-lawyer to run all the business side.
Well, of course they should do that.
Lawyers aren't worth a damn running anything.
They don't know how to hire stenographers, people like that, you know, or even lawyers who do it well.
You know, hospitals have gone through the same.
It's a miserable job, George, you know.
I mean, management is an art itself.
Of course, doctors can't do it either.
Doctors have management companies, business managers.
We're not the hiring business managers to run their hospitals, but that's what Art Geronimo said.
He's a very good person.
He's from Chicago.
He's known as Jim Lurie.
He's an independent.
He's a very good person.
He's a very good person.
He's a very good person.
He's a very good person.
He's a very good person.
He's a very good person.
He's a very good person.
He's a very good person.
He's a very good person.
I've done awfully well, yeah.
My favorite sign on the field's to me because there's no opponent and no other problem.
Fight by kill.
Arthur really needs somebody there that will, uh, break his ego a little too.
He's got the sign.
I mean, he needs that.
And, incidentally, Arthur's got some fine qualities, as you point out, as I do.
But now that he just needs to be up and doing it, you know, starting to do it, there's no respect for him at all.
Well, we had an impact on our group.
We had an impact on him.
We had the most positive go up.
It was going pretty well.
You think we did have an impact?
Sure we did.
I'm not going to say we had an impact.
Again, all this time, I've been thinking, I've been thinking, I've been thinking, I've been thinking,
Yeah, and how do you see a hell of a lot on the money supply thing?
You see, George Hasson is, we've all been paying attention to this wage and pricing machine.
I know.
And we've been talking about it.
We're looking at it all the time.
And we're all suddenly sort of waking up to the fact that here it is.
And I've been watching it and worried about it.
And it hasn't been in a discussion long enough.
It hasn't been in a discussion long enough.
The thing I wanted to talk to you about was this idea of never answering someone about these kind of questions.
Oh, yeah.
It actually had slipped my mind.
I thought I had to do that.
I wanted to.
That's the way it should be.
Just like we do that in the NSC on sometimes on crew control.
Just got to send it out and it's only there.
It'll take, it won't take from anybody else.
Just go to everybody that's not going to be in there the day I'm talking.
You just prepare it and I'll sign it.
You know what I mean.
Another thing, and that's keep the Peterson thing on ice until two weeks from now.
But he can talk, you can talk, and the rest, you know what I mean?
or the Peterson plan.
Another thing I'd like to say, I'm always cutting in pressure so that Connolly doesn't deal with the White House.
Like Peterson, for example, who's just going to leave a high guard to come through it.
I'll be sure to pressure whether it's Canadian or they know what's going on as well.
Jordan, of course, will be doing it.
We have taken large amounts of new inspections and they've said we have not.
They're complaining, but they're doing it.
We've pretty much agreed
There's practically no change as far as the Treasury is concerned.
We tried to give the rules and our justice.
The defense department, of course, is the biggest thing.
If we are going to wind up being able to show that we've achieved something, we're going to have to achieve something with the feds.
And he followed in the road and noticed the cap and gave him not the office, but the feds as well.
They have nothing under their control.
We're now kind of in a posture where we send them our pictures, and they are sort of coming back to us in a little bit.
And I guess what I'd like to get is whether you want us to just relax a little bit, go along and push in at least to a moderate degree.
I think if we don't do anything, we've got to.
We've got to.
We've got to do it.
They have lots of reasons.
We've got to do it.
We've got to do it.
I think Tom must be relating pretty much to all this.
Well, there's a problem in carrying out the California truck traffic.
That will put it back two cars in general.
So we don't have to use that as a gauge.
So we've just got to push the company a little bit more.
All right.
Well, we'll push, but we'll be careful about it.
We have a review process.
We have to review.
That's going along pretty well.
We'll be pretty much through that process in about two and a half weeks.
We'll be in a position to look at the results of that.
And it may be that there's something between now and then that's going to go well.
I compared this month to look at some of those things.
And also with this protection and so forth.
Speaking of the assumption that we haven't told anybody this, we're carrying federal revenue sharing in there.
We're carrying $80 billion in there.
And we're just going along on the other thing.
We feel that if we wind up with no federal revenue sharing and carry along the lines of our respect,
We have defense centers from that.
I guess everybody feels that one way or another, we have to be able to say a good enough thing.
Let me ask you, what about meetings?
Yeah.
Hi John, how you getting along with Teddy Gleason?
Any progress?
Good, good.
Right, but you're pushing it with everything you've got.
You know this clearly.
Okay.
Right, bye John.
John Corcoran spoke to me about that, and I was just finishing a meeting when he called on that.
Oh, I see.
And we're trying to see if the U.S. is creating American bottles for oil for wheat.
Well, we're trying to find out exactly what that means and the extent to which it really means that we weren't going to import any oil.
Christ, yeah.
But anyway, we're searching that out.
That damn thing is so ridiculous, isn't it?
We're going to be appalled, isn't it?
I don't believe, what is it?
Probably it's the maritime woman, isn't it?
But it's the local German.
Are the Asians here?
They load the stuff, whatever, by the way.
Oh.
And the shipping meeting, which they are alive, and of course the shipping company, they have a direct stay.
Of course, of course.
So we're seeing what we can do with that.
Yeah, for the car.
For the car.
Yeah, well, we just got to get it over there, you know, to see what it means.
That makes a lot of sense.
And it has some of the values there, you know.
But you also have the part of New Orleans that's open now.
We have an old part of Philadelphia that's open.
That's going to help a lot.
New Orleans is the biggest of the agriculture shipments out in the same place.
So that's the plan to be put in place.
I don't think we can fairly say to people that they have assurance it will stay open.
we have this injunction and whether it will hold and how the bargaining there will go and so on, we just don't know.
But they are bargaining and as I said on this morning, it seems to be pretty tight bargaining.
Now come back to me if that's what you're, what about if we're doing wrong and we fight the game right.
I think that he is pushing very hard
to have the payments due under existing contracts paid.
I don't see how he could take any other position.
What other position could he take?
I have said, and I think I've said it to you all along, I think that those deferred increases are going to be paid to the state to try to set aside existing contracts
So I'm really sort of sympathetic to what he wants.
But I don't have an argument on that.
Well, what if he would like to see what he's held down for?
And if he gets some of the preferred increases in large, that's all there is to the problem.
That's all.
So what the hell do they do about it?
Well, I think that's where they
And that's where they don't really have a very good answer.
I might say I believe John Connell agrees with me completely on this, that the practical thing is what we want.
The practical thing is to get the damn thing over with and get these people squealed over.
And just hope that we can get your age on the increase in the future.
That's really all the proof there is.
If I were a public member of that board, the thing that I would be trying to do is bargain with me on a sense of saying, all right, we let all these increases go into effect, and somehow we're going to have to get the coal and the longshore behind us.
And then what are we going to do from then on?
That's what we want you to agree with us on, that there's going to be some standard of behavior that you're willing to
say is proper and justified.
And that's the position there.
And I think that, in a sense, we've put the public members in a pretty good position, because they have that to give.
And if they use it well, anybody talk to them along those lines.
Well, it's just impossible to get to whoever.
It's just impossible.
to abrogate a contract, in my opinion.
I don't think you can do it.
No, I thought I'd walk out and let the people over there, and they'd say, well, listen, this doesn't even go over.
We're only talking about a few contracts.
I thought the freeze did affect all other wages, which is correct.
But now we've got the, say, needing something, and the meeting wasn't retroactive.
You couldn't cut a deal on that, could you?
That's where there's a problem.
I didn't see that.
I was the person who tried to deal on that.
In other words, if we defer all, for example, we have a problem with our government people.
We unwrap all the briefs.
Then I think we have a problem.
And I don't know how to fix it.
I don't think he could put it all back in 90 days and say, all right, pick it up then.
But I don't think he could go back and unravel the freeze for everybody going, what the hell is going on?
I don't want to get very confused.
90 days.
They took it for 90 days, and they got their money.
But no one's having that correct.
Although that aggregates the contract, too, doesn't it?
Well, the freeze did aggregate the contract.
But who?
But only for that period.
I think there's a problem in playing too fast and loose with these contracts in a long-term story.
One of the things that has plagued the British in most relations is that the contracts really haven't met anything with the people in the shops because they didn't participate in making the particular deal.
So the wildcat strike problem in Britain is what's really killing them.
These labor people were, so to speak, out of control.
And they're trying to bring into the country a respect for the contract, whether it was agreed on or disagreed on, and then work during that contract period.
Now, we have that in this country.
And the important thing is not to lose it, and not to give people throughout the workplace the idea that somehow the contract doesn't mean anything to deal with.
We've got to get going on this, George.
We've got to get a deal cut there if we can.
But he ought to give on that one.
Well, he just can't go about and knock the breeze out.
He's looked at our government workers in because, you know, it's true.
We would have very, I think, to them,
You talked about postponing the increase to the people's next October to January.
It doesn't seem to me that we have a good chance of doing that.
No chance of that.
No, no.
Hard it was to get rid of it.
Oh, hell no.
There's no chance.
Also, it's probably been 10 months since we've worked with them.
I wonder, though, if we're going to keep the store.
I mean, there's no making a decision on this.
Yeah, but did the managing people agree that the wage increase should be made retroactively through a free spirit?
No, I don't believe they did.
That's the point that I would, if we could get on that point, I can understand.
The other, I don't see an abrogated contract.
Not on the damn line.
I don't think you can renegotiate a contract.
I don't think you can do that.
I don't believe him.
You know, you're absolutely right about that.
The management's right about that.
The thing that's doing this is look to the future.
We freeze for 90 days and look to the future for the rest.
That's the way I need to go and approach the whole thing.
What's he suggesting?
Well, he's very strong with the idea that you're on track.
Driving parties.
You think we can roll him back?
No, no.
He thinks we have to honor the contract.
Right.
That's good that he says that.
Milton has this great line that he used on other occasions.
He starts out, unaccustomed as I am, but then he goes on.
He agrees with him on this.
George, we haven't had a contract, but I think the contract can be attributed to the government for 90 days.
Correct?
Sure.
That's all we're trying to say here.
That's what we've done to everybody else.
Restricted everybody.
We've just said pause.
Otherwise, our previous is blowing right off the window.
But meaning is taken, and is his position adamant on this?
Do we know?
Or negotiable, or what?
I don't really know.
I think we'd better get at it.
Who's going to get at it?
Whoever.
I want to talk to whoever about it and find out what's going on.
Will you do that?
And I will do that.
And if you tell them that I am, it's well and actually it's terribly important.
And I think we should not wait until it's a month or two to get this damn thing worked out.
And we can't have meaning go out and crow it.
It's going to help meaning too much either.
It's a great big damn victory that labor got all these retroactive pay increases.
Jesus, that is going to just raise hell.
You can't do that.
You can't have this contract.
You can't do retroactive.
What is the situation now in the Price Commission people?
They're essentially conducting themselves well.
Both have agreed to meditate with themselves.
The chairman will be their spokesman, and others aren't going to talk about what they're doing from now anyway.
And I think that's smart that they couldn't get a spokesperson before to come and talk on the NRA program.
But I think it's a good thing for them to be showing they're setting their own procedure.
That is an orderly way to do it.
That's one program.
What they are deciding, I don't know.
I don't think they know yet they're still with each other.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
The importance of the wage price productivity relationship, and I think it helps to highlight the productivity of the sector.
The next part will be...
The next part is a little bit tougher for a while.
I wish we were rid of all that.
A little talk that I made today with these people last week, you know, with Calvin, the reform in New York next week.
But by way of answering the question, what does it make to make code-free machineries succeed?
But more than that, it makes a reasonable environment for them to start in.
And this is one of the few instances when this kind of thing has been put in place against the background of an economic program that has a problem
moving in the right direction rather than the wrong direction.
So that's one thing that they have built.
And you put a budget under decision to have less, then pull that in.
And then second, I'd say a background policy on the budget that keeps the outlays within the general limits of the tax system.
And if the whole thing gets out of control, the machinery won't work.
If it is maintained under control,
the president intends to do, and what he did with the federal pay and the personnel cutback shows that those are the two of the toughest things he can do, and he does those.
And we are going to maintain that kind of control at that time.
And then third, at this particular time, we need a strong extension, and we have the room for it.
And the reason that's important is that it's associated with a very
a rapid increase in productivity.
And that will affect heavily in some of your costs.
And we have that prospect in front of us.
And with all those things going for us, the machinery ought to be able to work.
We try to have them.
In a sense, the machinery should follow up.
But we still have those three things telling us.
Conway's point about profits was pretty good, because we were looking at all the data.
The problems are pretty dead.
The problems have been coming along quite well.
That's the labor voice that's been playing out.
The industrial plant was
A lot of the build up had to do with the war.
... ... ... ...
Inventories are still pretty low, and the things that account for business confidence are inventories and the best equipment.
And those are the two things that doesn't hang fast.
The silver spending is that we provide figures which are less good for the second quarter.
Especially with that, the consumer has been more confident in the business.
Revised figures showed an upturn for September that was just unbelievable, huh?
Yeah.
It's just so big that you can't come up with something that wouldn't be their risk.
When did they get the update for us?
Uh, you know, the day before yesterday.
But that didn't take much of a time.
The revised pictures would tend to corroborate our personal goals.
We hear this from people, you know, we talk to, right, and we comment, you know, on San Francisco and Texas and people around.
I think we think you're back.
I can hear it.
to be a part of historic people.
Fine.
Fine.
I'll just get it in.
It's an excellent idea.
I'll walk that program through.
That was quite a trail to see when that fell.
Quite a problem.
I think one of the legendary figures, ill-legendary figure, he's a mean man, 17 years with the Chargers attack.
Very sad Scott won't be getting flunked because he was alerted as a 55.
Very sad Scott just won't show us the daughter, being another lab.
Thank you.