Conversation 309-001

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Well, I, uh, hit me on this, I don't know, yesterday.

And, uh, the other office we got last night, Blockstaff and Barrow, who, you know, Walter, he closed the office and moved out.

Well, hey,

called David last night and indicated that he was very concerned about the quality of the evidence.

I was afraid that the admiral was being jobbed on circumstantial evidence.

So I had Henry and Al up this morning and I played the tape for them of the Welchers interview.

And they were both

And they both now are in crisis.

They're just covering up here as well.

Now, I think Al genuinely was concerned.

He at least has now sold me that he's loyal.

He and Henry both agreed in very strong terms that Mortar should go.

They're both now satisfied that Mortar is heavily indicated.

doubly concerned because they've been using Moore's back channels for all kinds of communications, and they're afraid that they can compromise for whatever problems that raises, and I don't know what the implications are there.

But Henry, that treated me to a half an hour monologue of Rogers.

No, not just Rogers, but just the whole, the whole

and then came down, very strong, said he would never mention this to you, and I would never mention this to you, like that, but he wanted me to understand that their very strong vision was a good pastor should replace the word as early as possible, that their ability to work with a man like him was impaired from time and on and on.

So, I don't know, this is not likely to be really more, well, this whole thing has been that way.

The Admiral Juan Guerrero, he owned them, and more is too good a man, more is too good a son-in-law's son-in-law.

I don't feel any more.

This other Admiral, the interview Monday, is from us.

But I'm now convinced, and Al pretty well corroborated this, that he is probably here now,

and being prepared for this.

Incidentally, wasn't it started before Martin came?

That's what I want to know.

Well, that's something that Robinson might be able to shed some light on.

Laird, of course, indicated to me that he had used this tactic a few years ago in the Kennedy and Johnson case.

Laird had?

Yeah.

When he was on the appropriations committee.

Well, I just don't know how to have more of them.

You can't, can you?

No, it's just God.

Or it's turned up in June.

Is Henry surprised?

Yes.

Henry Dalfoy, he realized it was the state that I was going to want to release him.

He didn't say anything about state leaking.

He, of course, gave me the whole chapter and verse on Roger's press conference and all that kind of thing.

What did Roger do wrong this time?

Well, he denied that there was a Kennedy-Pakistan undertaking and what else?

I forgot.

I didn't get much of that part of it.

But anyway, he got ahold of it.

And he's very well-to-do.

Thank you.

He's very emotional.

And it doesn't make a lot of sense on some of this, at least to me.

But I'm very intimately familiar with his power over his problems.

And he always had this power.

And we were quite glad.

We expected him to get on with his form.

And the American man, John, has come out with a lot of money.

No sweat.

Well, you've got your losses there.

And he thinks of the whole world.

He's failed, and we've failed, and so forth.

That's it.

Bullshit.

I agree with that.

That's what's important to you.

Do you think there's that much to be considered in his case?

Well, Henry Carsey, his reputation is sort of a reputation for the age.

the sort of metric income of 60s and 70s.

We don't want to make mistakes, no mistakes at all.

For the steel.

So that's the one.

Of course, Rogers should not have that kind of comment.

Is that his main concern?

Yeah, his main concern was that the State Department was putting out the line that India is our Cuba.

Yeah.

made it terrible in the state.

Don't, don't, because I don't sympathize with him too much on that.

I would always, if you will, you know, you just beat Henry's fire when you say, you know, Henry, that's right.

I just don't forget it.

I had a very defense in that.

I just said, I don't really follow.

So he said, yes, I know you don't, but you're a friend of the president and you should, you know, and what he's doing, he's fostering himself now out of the administration.

It's kind of interesting.

He says, you fellows this and

the president this and that, and the president of his cabinet this and that, and taking a disassociated position to where it was on, specifically India-Pakistan.

So what is his position?

Well, he's saying how the administration is being charged with this mistake,

the president should disappoint his secretary of state, the fellows in the administration should back up the president, and that, you know, it's a sort of a detached disassociation kind of a position, which I think is concerning.

I'm tired of being confronted, as you say, confronted with the charge of having made a mistake.

And we've done so many, and that's the mistake, and we've done so many, and it's a job for Christ's sake.

You can't keep them in the perspective.

He's only concerned about what Joe Kraft or Martin Polizzi or the Archivist out there might think of him for the Archivist as like an actor.

They think of him as doing pretty well.

I mean, that's what he has to realize.

I can read the Rogers' lead during his press conference, John.

The lead was, Rogers was very strong on saying that we would continue the bombing of North Vietnam.

Did Henry mention that?

Oh, yes, sir, yes.

I've got an advance on this water quality thing that I need to talk to you about sometime and we can do that personally.

I'm sorry.

Let's say on this one, I think we've got to do it in a case.

We've got a fundamental job we're working on, and it's a very patched way to do this very good.

It's one of those jobs.

For some time away from that, I must say, I don't see my way where I'm going to look to do this job.

Yeah, I think that's who's proud of it.

.

They've never had a better time.

That's why I said it.

You tell people, told more of us, except for the stuff out of the briefcases.

They've never had a better time in my office than I have.

As John will tell you, that's what I told John and Mitchell when they told me about it.

I said, for Christ's sake, it doesn't make any sense.

It's the wrong place.

I told them everything.

And I told him, as I said, I would have given Maura all of this information, except for the briefcase notes.

That's an excuse for me.

There's nothing that Maura couldn't get past.

Yes, we used .

I know.

There was nothing.

On the other hand, we had to realize, Henry, this was set up long before Maura .

There wasn't such an office we set up that .

Well, the office wasn't, but they had the channel.

Innsburg before.

Yep.

That was never the way you did it.

Well, we set it up.

That was one of the good jobs.

We had a special channel.

I know.

Yeah, we always tried to see the future with great technology.

That's what we had.

That's what helped us.

I don't know where it was.

Actually, until we finish the drops.

Could be.

He's going to be in a very tough position.

That's going to be an interesting challenge.

I'm worried about it, but that's the major point.

I'm not sure.

Aren't you going to go?

You're going to do it.

I'm going to do it.

I'm not sure I can get it.

In fact, I think the most innocent of the bunch is the president.

I think this thing has been going on for a hell of a long time.

We have a source.

back into New York from the embassy that we're going to try and tap for information on.

He's friendly.

He's friendly and we're going to try and develop from him.

I don't want to know any description of what operations existed back then.

So it's important for us to know.

Well, you think more has to go.

And that's when we'd have to do it more.

We blew it now.

You may as well start a prosecution.

You see my point?

You can't outlaw that.

The problem I have is that that's the problem.

You see, Henry, if you were to throw more around now, you'd have to do the shit that's going to hit the man.

And that's going to hurt us.

It's our deal.

Nobody else would have happened while we were here.

And you get blamed for it, and then you go, you can't say, well, this is not together.

Or we could see institution.

Did we consider the voluntary institution?

The only hard-line institution in the national government.

On the other hand, the man knows.

Sure.

He knows what he is.

It just seems to be going to say Laird has to be a party to whatever decision the president ultimately makes.

Laird has to make his idea and he has to be committed to it.

All right.

I have to say, I've been thinking about you for years now, and the rest of my life, too.

I've been thinking about you.

You may not think that, but from the outside, the appearance is very strong.

And that larger canvas is really not understood by the average guy to be all that important.

It's a bunch of unwashed evens that are picking away at each other over there.

Either side would have been the wrong side.

Well, this took a lot, and this took, completely independently, nobody from the D.C. County.

I know because I wasn't.

Go back and read the Wall Street Journal editorial three days ago, three days ago, and we'll see exactly.

Because they make points of view, and they get old, and they have to go.

Oh, thanks.

I don't think we're going to be able to do that.

That part of it doesn't concern me.

What concerns me is the way the systematic attitude of the government

But not by the war.

And that's the point.

That's where the major problem is.

You see, if you're doing the job, you see the problem is that you die in the care of the borrower, the kid, you know, and you cannot leave him.

And part of the outcome is that we're a philosophical region that supports you.

And we can't do anything about it.

That was particularly in the giant cheats.

The military received a global issue, and they recovered.

We can't do it.

We must survive.

We'll see what they...

This is not the place to do this.

We're not going to take care of the illness.

I don't know what the hell... You got any ideas?

Yeah.

He just wanted a drought that didn't take such long hours.

That's what I think.

I think it would be unfortunate if I wish to kill him.

Okay.

It may not be that awful.

The water is still secret, Doctor.

... ... ... ...

I probably didn't have my briefcase with me on my shelf.

But I will hurt you.

I have been sent home on the trails from West Virginia.

And I've always stayed in my seat.

So if I've gotten to go through a briefcase before, and they go, and they have good messages, and they go through a briefcase, it's very bad for consent.

I think it's a very important, very important point.

I regret it.

Is anybody talking to him at all?

Is anybody talking to him?

I'd like to have him closer to...

where you've got the FBI or your own organization.

That's one thing John and I have discussed, is the possibility of just keeping him here under surveillance in the hope that we catch him in bed with Jay Anderson some night.

Exactly.

Well, that's my view about it.

I would not send it to the Pacific.

I wouldn't say they have nothing in Brooklyn, California.

I mean, there's pretty much over there, you know, there's thousands of jobs in the Pentagon.

And I was seeing some newspapers that they announced a new series with, by this guy, how I stole military secrets for the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

That's right.

It's just that, well, that's the reason that I wonder if you can be restraining from letting them know that you're

Well, there again, it's dangerous, John.

Yes, but I agree that the way to do it is just to have the guy in there.

We're going to keep the presence.

We feel that you're doing it.

Do you understand?

You're guilty of a crime.

Well, I think we're going so far as to say now, you're going to be stationed here.

I know your possession is a tremendous number of secrets.

And therefore, I'm going to have you under 24 hours of evidence.

Good.

And just let him live in there.

That's right.

I'm going to have him stationed here.

And that's one possibility.

Right.

That's my solution to it.

Given to you, Henry, you could have him for your secretary.

Yes.

He's already used to doing that.

He's apparently very good.

Well, I'll tell you, you can't trust a young man in the Navy.

You've got to ask who you can trust.

What?

Who was good to us by the chance, you know?

I know, I know.

There's more I've talked to you since the beginning.

Talk to me.

What?

There's another who's good.

No.

I'm just saying, let him ride.

I detached myself from him two days ago.

It's up to the security people now.

We go forward and work on it every now and then.

We've got to do it in the future.

And I just know that we're going to be driving ourselves crazy thinking about this and about that.

And there are other problems in addition to that.

Take me to the day before Christmas.

I know how it works.

I know.

I don't think I can see this.

.

Do you think we can keep this away from anybody else?

I hate to have this get around to, frankly, I wouldn't want Connelly to know, and I wouldn't want Agnew or people like that.

Anybody else know?

The only people here are ten and a half young.

You ought to remember that there are a lot of people who would like to get on the show.

So there's no style, and that's the legal thing now.

that he should be told that the bi-mention, that the bi-mention has got to understand our decisions.

He's going to look very bad.

He cannot separate himself.

No way he can.

And that he's going to look bad, and that he's going to change his head, and that he's not going to be told necessarily all the time.

But I think Mitchell should tell us the money he has.

Larry will play.

Larry's better than he is.

But he is responsible for all the cheaters out there.

I'm not concerned about weeks from here because nobody knows it in here.

My secretary doesn't know it.

Nobody knows it in the staff apparatus except John.

That's right.

And he won't say anything.

Correct.

Now, outside of here, it's Laird and his investigators

His general counsel.

All right.

And they've only once known anything about a grand chief's angle.

The client needs to know about the ailment.

But they know about it.

They walk next to the jackhammers.

They will say, you know, Larry's your leaker.

Potential leaker.

But he won't respect your power.

And it's going to hurt him.

It's going to hurt the administration.

And we've got to say that.

And we've got to handle it this way.

And it's also going to hurt the uniform.

It'll hurt Larry personally.

It'll hurt the administration.

It'll hurt the uniform.

And that has to prevail over the other ones.

That's my opinion.

But if you would make sure that you have a conclusion, if you have anything else, take a week to think about it.

Well, I would call Mitchell now.

He's out west.

And have him call Larry.

I'm afraid of what Laird might do.

Laird, I'm feeling very insecure.

You and I have that other vision of riding with Laird.

I don't want you.

That's why I'm pushing it off here.

Let's just let John be the bad one here.

We can understand.

We've got to get off the top of Laird, but I want you both to pay attention.

Oh, yeah.

I know he isn't, but Larry is the kind of follower that would run into a story like this, and I just want to keep him from compounding it.

I don't really deal with talking to him.

I won't talk to him.

And on the other hand, I think we've got to maintain Henry.

We've got to realize, we've got to realize that the better it works, the more we're still in charge of the chiefs.

We've got to deal with that.

He will carry on what he wants.

But he's trying to turn it off.

No, that's right.

There, now you'd like to take a look.

Now you'd like to take a look.

But let me tell you, I will, you're going to find this out, I will bet that this is going to get going on for years.

They started it in Johnson.

But after the president moved back, I don't know.

I don't know.

You see, Henry, when they start something, they continue.

It just goes on and on.

I hope that the president, in fact, he has been able to do these things.

I don't know.

That's right.

Yes.

Well, I've stated that I'm going to do a copy of the stuff you were talking about.

You know, if you can't pull the sheets out of the water, that's my mention.

I'm going to do a copy of the stuff you were talking about.

Now, if they're going to drag their feet, now they just hate everything about us.

Now, if you will try and let them take it for my own health, and my own future, as far as the minister of country, as far as any existence, it's just a, it's just a, it's just a, it's a symptom of...

of Polaris, of all nations, of all countries, came into this situation.

So, you know, my knowledge, but I'm not here yet.

But I do.

I do.

Oh, I see.

Sure, of course, of course.

We did things well, and we did really well.

We tried to create the resources for the public and everything.

We did a lot of fun activities, and we were ashamed of that, and I think that we had to re-do some of that, and I think that probably I should be hiring some other people.

Unless you'll action on the part of another human being.

What was Holt's point?

.

Of course, the price is against us.

He wouldn't mind if you fired him, would you?

What did he guess that you were going to do about it?

You've got it in person, haven't you?

Okay, I'm here.

I've got to call Griswold and tell him to leave something around.

I've got my case, what's the matter?

Well, these cases are more than that.

These are old cases.

I'll be around, that's what I'm saying.

But I'm going up to New York.

I've got to go.

Well, I've got to go, Griswold.

Stay here and make sure that I've got my pictures taken.

I've got a 30-40 telephone call.

Now, you make it, Barry.

Don't let your kids see it.

Don't you let them see it?

No, this is nothing.

I'll make it.

Well, I know what you know, but let me say, you...

Oh, all these people.

Hello, Mary Ann.

Henry?

Yeah.

What I've said is this.

Remember the strong men.

You've got to remember we all have troubles.

If you want to remember every person who makes us all troubles, it's much worse.

So the strong people have got to go out and they've got to lift everybody all the time.

So just do that.

We've all got big burdens on ourselves, but if you just get out there... No, I know what you're talking about.

I mean, personal troubles with regard to these damn policies.

But what I meant is that don't let your concern, don't let your concern these next two or three days reflect itself on you.

Let those little kids have a good time, okay?

I think you guys are pretty well paid.

He gets back to the law on a mistake, and he's being criticized, and he doesn't like it.

He says he has no personal mistake.

Hell, he sees himself in history, and he has a big personal mistake.

The question about whether it's a mistake.

No mistake in policy.

Henry knows very well that if we did the right thing, either we couldn't back him, that he may attack, you see.

Or not backing him for the wrong reasons.

Or he should stand up and say, the hell with you sons of bitches.

Yeah, but he's under fire.

I can't tell you.

I was glad to hear him say, Jim, he's out of that now.

What?

He's out of that, Jim, in fact.

He figured that out.

The second thing is that he's got to work with more.

You know, one thing that Henry is doing, he isolates himself from everybody.

who is not a total yes-man.

You know, he says that Scali is not his one, but he is.

He thinks that he sometimes doubts Cade.

He's a great fellow about pushing, but he's just an idiot.

That's a lie.

He's just a great person.

It's all in the same way.

He's got a random situation.

He's got a head.

A whole group of enemies surrounding him.

He can't take everybody on.

He's got to work with more.

Hell, I don't care.

Some I like better than others.

I work with all of them, too.

You know, when I take this captain to practice, some of those people are asses.

You work with them all.

You isolate yourself over there.

Well, how do I handle it?

What do you think is the best way to handle it?

Yeah, this and either that or let him.

But I wasn't going to let him get into the rocket.

I think that was fine.

He's been going all the way around each one.

I think he knows goddamn well what we can do about it.

Well, I don't know.

I'm totally out of touch with this, except as far as I'm concerned.

Well, Rogers does behave temperamentally.

Well, I can understand some chance.

I can understand.

Henry was treatment.

Sure.

And we had the same kind of thing on the domestic side.

You just have to work at it all the time.

And Henry doesn't.

He doesn't give a damn why.

And they know he doesn't.

Treatment.

Absolutely.

And so it's open war.

And any time he's vulnerable, as he probably is in this case, because the press would love to have some ammunition, they're feeding him.

that I ordered bills, that it's a bureaucracy.

I haven't had a lot of respect for bills individually, and I'm really, I think he's able to do that.

And Henry has not paid COVID discounts.

This is not smart.

Bill is a lot more smart than Henry.

Bill is true.

It's not like he's beaten the shit out of us.

He's not really a

He is a tactician, definitely.

And also, Bill is a petty, personal battery.

And it's pretty, you know, personal.

And he likes to be so, he wears it on his sleeve.

He doesn't realize how obvious he is with it.

And therefore, it's a tatsy for, I'm sure they ask this as a statement, but she got no right here.

There's only a buddy, Eddie Vayner, that's on him.

Right, yeah.

But that's in his own way, and he feeds that in different ways, and Bill feeds his, and that's just a human being.

That's part of the problem.

Their vanities are sort of adverts.

But actually, you've got kind of an interesting combination there.

Because Roger is a perfect front man when he's performing.

And he can make all the right emotions, do all the right things, and get out in the press conference and handle himself well and so on.

My thinking on Rogers has changed over a year and a half.

Because I think he's now as much as I have come to think that he's an asset.

Which Henry could use, if he would.

Christ, I've told Henry a dozen times to use Rogers, but I don't think he can do it.

In getting our environmental package ready for this year, I've got to have the help of the Treasury.

And Connelly's out of pocket for the next two weeks, so I'm taking the mode of writing to him to say that we need help in finalizing some tax work for the taxpayer, and I'll be sending him paper and glass.

And I wanted you to know I was doing that before I did, because I'm taking your name in vain.

We were telling them we didn't want to bother him, and so forth and so on.

The note just says, uh, uh, the President's generally in favor of this proposal, subject to any reservation that you might have.

And, uh, it might be worthy of mention to the State of the Union.

We'll quickly throw a stand for operation, and, uh, send that over to the Treasury.

The other thing is this damn water bill.

We've made some fairly decent progress in the House in getting better house rules.

You said I had to sign it.

Well, I think you do, and I need your signal now as to whether you will sign it or not, because if you're thinking of detailing it, we have embarrassed our position.

What if the news was right, or what?

No, George Shultz says that there are great, big, huge budget problems with it.

And that you should not dismiss a detail out of hand, even if you get the best possible outcome from the conference.

But he's pretty soft on that, actually.

He says he recognizes .

Well, if you feel that way, we'll work very hard to get the best thing we can out of the conference.

So there's no sense doing that if you have any reservations .

Then, I agree with you that we're struggling with the issue.

I've been dealing with Colson and Moore and Scali and all those colleagues on this value as a tax school operation.

And they're all much more anxious about the way that, and it is a view of Secretary Conley and I, and they feel that there's a real danger of not meeting with somebody stealing legal property issues.

So there are several things that want to happen.

They want to exploit the real estate package before .

So I want to raise it with you.

And I will talk to Secretary Connelly more about this, because I realize he's got to look forward to any decision that's made.

But I wanted you to know that that was the recommendation for PR working groups that have worked on it.

They feel that there's going to be a lot of attention on real estate taxation.

Now, I've had a public wall, and he's the Catholic on the McElroy.

I had a whole head and a whole story, and asked him to go talk to the Cardinal Institutions about it, and get back to me with their reaction.

And I've met Berudi, and I'm going to have meetings with Berudi and some conservatives in the education field on Monday.

And what I'm doing is vetting this out on very discreet basis about infrastructures that we might otherwise not get.

the like of conservatives, handing down the four reactions.

And then I'm going to move in on John Burns and some of the congressional types, Ferguson, also.

But I really don't know yet how to evaluate the Colts and the Maynards' fears that some of them still was issued from.

But they were very real, and I pressed very hard to put you out front.

on the real estate tax.

They'd like to have McElroy come in and put on quite a show of reporting to you before the state meeting on how his commission came along.

So if you can refer to it at the state meeting and say, I've had the chairman in.

I see the direction they're going.

I think he's doing this whole thing through the state taxes.

I've got a secretary that's very hard at work on this.

And so I'm glad this year we're going to be coming to the nation with this proposal.

We're making pretty good progress on these messages and so forth.

I plan to go out on a roll call.

Great.

Well, it's really the reason I want to go is to see them play.

So I'll be out there by the time you get there for the software business and maybe after that we can tour the state union and you can get some feeling.

But I've seen the way you should be distracted between now and the time you finish the software.

Let me ask you a question.

I agree, I agree.

With regard to your value added and the rest, I didn't think we should go.

The problem we've got is, of course, the common ground.

And you've got to work out how to keep the economy lower.

The economy, of course, is being influenced by coal.

There's people who probably don't like the idea.

And they're waiting.

You know, if you don't like something, there's always the delay.

Now, my view is that

All right.

So anything you say on this, say that the president says

I've emphasized that with these people that I'm talking to, and also with this PR group, but some part of the economy has got to take the platform to start speaking out on this.

Because I can only plant that so much, and then it doesn't become believable anymore.

Elliot has come out of a mile of delights.

I'll tell you what, the president tells Donald Trump that he wants him to take the lead on it, and that he should say something on it soon, so that others can say something on it, and that maybe we should put him in the position.

I don't know.

I don't think he's quite ready for that.

Well, he isn't ready in terms of our having

But not only is he like a dentist, he can't get an appointment for a month, you know.

He's down at the ranch now.

I'm ready in the sense that I'm going to keep going with the contact that I'm making on a very discreet basis.

And around the 8th, if you decide you want to put him in the stadium, we can go back to two weeks virtually.

Actually, very nicely done.

When you heard the telephone last, I had a powerful vision for Colorado.

The idea is, he came up and said, Merry Christmas to you all.

And he stood up and said, Merry Christmas, and I had a name on the defense board.

Why?

What's happened to you?

Well, we were settled with the Department of Defense.

We settled in pretty favorable terms with the O.M.A.

because people are happy with it.

That's great.

He thinks you wanted him to go heavier than he went.

No, I just want him, the price was to get layered support.

All right, that's fine.

You could strike a rip-roar for freedom here by indicating that you were pleased with his performance over here and how much confidence you have in him and how you're, you know, so forth.

Because he's wondering at this point.

Well,

Well, he's probably tired.

Oh, you know how it is.

What happened is that we had this problem with Blair going around our back to our job that's not an app store.

And I said to George, I said, George, the price eggs don't give our people an issue.

Well, right from there, you know, the great thing here is, do I have the person's account?

So he's in the dumps.

So you can go to that point.

You would.

But you just said so many words, and I'm glad you got the defense.

Shall I tell him you told me?

No, no, just something that Henry told me.

Yeah, yeah.

Because he's been meeting with Henry every day this week, and I think it's a real shame.

Okay, back to Henry for a moment.

Just take a moment before you go.

What is the...

He is extremely valuable to us.

He is indispensable at this time because of the China Hill trip, right?

And the lessons learned from the trip.

Rogers is not.

But the point is that we cannot have Henry have an emotional collapse.

He's a kind of fellow that could have an emotional collapse.

I think.

I agree.

Query.

The only thing he could do is

I suppose he may be gone.

He should have just dropped by on the way off and said, I'd like to report to you and remember that you got the copy of the man that just described this to us truly beneath on the hill.

Well, you know, you shouldn't be worried about it.

You have his family.

I shouldn't be worried about it.

I'm not worried about it.

He's a very complex, insecure guy.

Pretty good.

And you see, he's really stable.

He is, and he is an individual who can not stand a single rebuttal.

I'm persuaded now, having watched him for three years, there's nobody more arrogant when things are going great.

He's impossible.

When there's any kind of a setback, which there always will be, he's cool under fire.

You know, when he's making decisions and calling shots.

But then the actor is just told to depression.

And, you know, we've talked about this before.

We've been through this before.

And Wallace, another guy, he goes and has a depression.

He just had to get into substantial therapy back in Pakistan.

But Wallace was back, too.

Oh, Laos had a hell of an effect on us public opinion-wise.

India, Pakistan, is that affecting people public opinion-wise?

Is it like Laos?

No.

But see, he's not interested in public opinion.

He's interested in what Marcus Childs writes and what Joe Kraft writes and what Weston thinks and, you know, that kind of stuff.

And because that's Henry's world.

He has no family.

He has no personal life.

And so that's his cosmos.

But you have to kind of, you have to kind of, well, I think we've done very well.

I never thought it would last this long.

We really have.

I spend a lot of time on it.

Well, you have to.

I think that's really the price you pay for what nobody else would have done.

How long would he have lasted with John Connell?

Far from downstairs.

Yeah, he was heading out of here two weeks after he started.

I think he was.

First time he had one of his little hands turned out.

He said, I'm up here.

You're not up here.

We're going to shave on the way out.

And you've got a whole building full of guys here who don't need it, who go on and they do their jobs every day and they're glad to be here and excited with what they're doing and all that.

But they have different kinds of...

They feed their eagles other ways.

Their wives tell them how great they are when they go home at night and they show this to all their kids.

Sure.

But this guy doesn't have that.

Well, what's the trouble with Rocky's name?

Well, his wife tells him he's great.

Yeah, yeah.

His dad tells him he's great.

Why the hell does he have to have a constant with his eagles?

Unbelievable.

And that one says, yeah, that's a hose in there.

That really was his dad.

Yeah.

He's always been that way.

I have to really realize that when you hear him, you see this very personal character.

But if you look around you, he's got an anger about you.

You don't want to get into an argument like he did back then.

Maybe he had some questions.

And as I say, I didn't read the stuff closely enough to let you know.

But my very cursory reading, which is what I just gave at the end, I don't think that section of the Rodney and Chris Conker's got much vanilla.

Am I wrong or right?

That's my question.

Henry obviously read the transcript and didn't know it at all.

You read the new summary, didn't you?

I read the new summary and I read the New York Times.

And what did it give you?

I thought he was talking about other things.

I didn't get anything out of it that was treacherous on India and Pakistan.

And frankly, I missed the whole point of the Kennedy plan.

I didn't even see where he denied there was a Kennedy plan.

But Henry, he had questions in the way of whether or not the effect of the presidential demarcation could be dealt.

And of course, he had no legal impact.

Yeah.

But that's been kicking around for a week.

That was it.

That's how he knows my dad.

He's true about that.

He's a private citizen.

He said, well, of course, he's got his mother.

But anyway, he was, Henry was playing it through.

Well, you know, you're in a situation of having a wagon pulled by a dozen very spirited horses.

And somebody asked me here a while back, it was this time magazine here, and I said, I thought one of your very strong points was personnel management.

And really, you spend a hell of a lot of your time in personnel management, therapy, what did I just say, just short small call is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

And really, that's a very large part of the president's job is keeping all these people harnessed and moving in the same direction and keeping them from curbing all over each other.

And we've had, I think, as administrations go, rather our good and little, just act like we've done.

And it's because you've spent an awful lot of time.

But frankly, Henry is our major problem.

Because Henry gets in a lot of relations with Mary the Terrible and George the Terrible.

And she's been over that.

And Henry's driving high and he's in the summer.

And when he's driving low, he's constantly back.

He really is.

That's right.

They all have their problems.

He just can't be cool.

When you say he is cool, it doesn't mean he's right.

It's whatever he tends to be.

But as a gardener, he's a juvenile emotional reaction.

I've got a few problems, too.

Well, you see, other than this one, that's the ludicrous part of the project you're hearing.

Here's a person in the United States propping up this guy.

It shouldn't be running any other way.

We've got the family on my hands.

We've got domestic counseling problems.

You know what I mean?

We've got a lot of other things.

We've got political problems that we've got to talk about.

that Henry's barometer goes up and down and sort of

I just had to work at it every day.

And I would have talked about it before, but right now, it's very emotional.

He hadn't been this way before.

Oh, yes.

Actually, I remember the conversations like this at times

And it's crises before.

Israel, remember, the Mideast was aflame, and that was going to have us all in war in a week.

And it was stupid and so on and so forth.

We went on through that.

It was a lot.

Right.

Isn't that the way to take it?

Absolutely.

Rather than to say, well, my whole shit is dead on the charts, it's seven points we've re-drawn.

The old is really the best.

You've lost my perspective.

And this is the thing, and it was interesting.

Al, this morning, kept bringing Henry back to that.

He said, Henry, you've got to see this whole thing in perspective.

You've got to see where it fits in the big picture.

Which Henry is not willing to do.

But how did Al do?

Al was playing a good role.

He was pretty good.

He was really pretty good.

You have to think about where Wellinger is in this whole system.

Instead of focusing on just Wellinger, let's see, you know, what's his relationship up and down?

And we'd see that he's a victim of the system.

He's a victim of some precondition.

And then he got on board.

He said, well, let's see what the things are.

Again, let's see the perspective.

What about Moore?

What kind of roles does he have in the military?

And so on and so forth.

And they, they say, well, Henry refused to admit.

And I know, I know that I'm in question.

And he said, well, Gettysburg is probably the worst.

Well, the worst.

That's probably when it started.

I've got a guy.

You know that.

I think he's going to give me the lowdown on the Gettysburg operation.

Well, I've heard that this young fellow is not going to hand in here at the end of the day.

We're all connected.

And I can see that he's got a thought in the old NFC apparatus.

We're around here now working in some government operation.

And so he contacted me in the schedule and he talked.

I've got to put up somebody to keep me up here.

Well, put him in.

They don't have to, they don't have to do something.

These are superb quality.

A property, he's talking about leaving, he must have been, he's got a whole question for you.

Yeah, he's had a few, anybody that's great, he does something, he's got to do something.

I thought I'd have to tell you, other than I said, which I regret,

I said, it's never perfect.

I said, there's no perfection in life.

And there never will be, because it helps the nation and the world.

It's never totally perfect.

But it's better when that's the main thing.

So it's better in a national way in order to avoid it coming home and so forth.

The chances that you see a better home, if you have a better relationship with your brother, your children from our society, the economy is better than your brother.

So America's a better ship.

I think it's a good thing.

And that's what you've got to keep in mind as far as everything's there.

There is no perfection.

That's the trouble with the intellectuals and intellectuals.

There is perfection.

There never was and there never will be.

This is the problem, too, with people.

This is the trouble with all intellectuals.

Intellectuals, you know, reject religion.

The reason they reject religion, they put themselves back in a way at the top.

Whereas an individual who accepts religion recognizes that he is not religion.

The man cannot be perfect.

You see, the original, the liberal of the lecture developed this idea of perfection.

It's impossible.

So the idea of the other way around, of course, is coming from those with various vulnerabilities.

People are not perfect.

Henry would never accept that proposition.

You know, that the human mind cannot develop perfection.

that he would be much more appreciative of himself.

I think that's his problem.

Do you agree or not?

Yeah, I mean, he said, he's very incorrect.

As far as that's concerned, he has no correct information in there.

What do I know?

So it's all very self-centered.

If you ever found any very great intellectual degrees, that's what they do.

That's why universities, colleges destroy you.

That's why it's bad.

Einstein.

It does.

Sure enough, it became religious.

At the end of his life.

It became what?

Religious.

At the end.

Some of the great scientists, you know, as they look out across through the eternity and they see, well, no other explanation.

We don't.

Well, what is the final answer?

It isn't in man.

It's something outside of man.

And Henry had just never brought himself to do that, you know.

I think one of the things Henry Doe has got to appreciate, John, and I don't know whether somebody in this hometown, somebody, when he's in a more rational frame of mind, has got to say, John, Henry, you're goddamn fortunate that the president stands by you and holds your hand and all that sort of thing.

You see what I'm getting at?

He's got to see that somebody, if he gets thinking about somebody else, maybe he'll do better.

I think he appreciates it, but

Or does he see himself really carrying his government around on his shoulders?

Yes.

Yes, I suppose.

I suppose.

But it doesn't matter.

He should be able to be an expert in our own self-centered individual.

I thought it was good.

I thought it was good because I was relieved.

I hadn't read it.

I just read the newspaper stuff.

But I'm not sure.

You know that Kendry was a businessman, wasn't he?

I didn't say no on everything.

Did he get carried?

Yes, sir.

How do you know that?

Gee, I went out to get a physical examination.

Well, it's all over the paper, but it was all on the television because of Kendry.

No, Kendry hardly showed up.

It was the crowd shot.

The whole audience was there, and you speaking, and you signing.

When you gave Schmidt or somebody a pen, that was on the line, so.

And Kennedy was served in the background.

He got a mention on the voiceover along the run.

But it was a big one.

Well, the other remarks were carried for 20, 30 seconds as part of that most important thing this administration has ever done.

Maybe, yeah.

Yeah, we can, yeah.

But that it's, you know, that's a good one.

Did you see the movie Pickle?

Pickle, Brian's song?

No.

Get the, we've got an hour and a half.

We'll put it on Channel 2 for you.

It's an ABC show.

The story of Dale Sayers and Brian Piccolo.

Brian Piccolo died of cancer in 1966.

ABC made an hour and a half movie out of it.

I saw it last time.

It is, of course, many consider that as a foolish point.

But it's probably the best thing that's been done for race relations in years.

They've had to move, most of the movies they've viewed, their kids have said they're going to cry.

A lot of families have said that's a ridiculous joke.

Brian's songs.

Did you see that film?

I'll tell you what I will do.

I saw it in the film.

But when you get back, when people get back, you just put this down as a note to follow up on.

I will have a show in it for all the White House staff who do not see it in me.

By Fisher.

on a big screen to make a movie in the morning.

And it is fantastic.

It's that good.

All right.

You want me to leave the earth and leave the church?

And move to God?

No, I won't leave until 2 p.m. And I'll probably see you on Monday night.

All right.

That would be a hell of a thing for everybody to see Monday night for Christmas.

All right.

Want to say something?

Sure.

Be glad to be sure that I'm all done.

All right.

I've heard it.

It's very good.

It's dirty.

You don't see me because these cops talk just like they talk.

But it's a very interesting picture about the government.

And they tell me it's like...

Mafia is a family.

It's also a clan.

No, it's better.

It's better than that.

It's much more realistic and, I think, more interesting, more exciting.

It's quite true to life.

You see, if Henry were in perspective, you'd see another thing.

So India, Pakistan, we had a great, good fortune in my view.

In terms of the presidency, I think people see that out there as a sort of condition as to which we have no control.

It's incidental.

Yeah, sure.

Because of our Jewish population, not a lot of people feel that way about the Mideast, you know.

The Jews don't, and so the media carries it up front as being something that concerns us.

But India is, you know, it's totally disassociated, except for the real sophisticate who Henry is so involved with.

And if Indira Gandhi hadn't come here when she did, we'd have been even farther from those times.

That's really a minor play.

What Henry says when he talks about his China trip, I'm really curious as well.

See, Bill Sullivan made a crack, from the State Department, made a crack to Henry yesterday in the context of Henry criticizing the State Department for something.

No, he told me about it this morning.

Henry criticized the State Department for something, and Bill was stunned and came back and said, probably you, Henry, if you're afraid this will disrupt your damn China trip,

Henry can dish it out, but he can't take it out.

They shouldn't revert to it that way.

Rogers is very jealous about the China trip.

I can imagine.

Yet the China trip is the most important.

It's a much more big play, an effective play, than the Russian trip.

The Russian trip is more significant because you can read something.

Don't you read the China trip?

It's dramatic.

Marco Polo aspect changes the world.

They don't have them halfway out over there.

No, but if you have them, justice will be added all over.

Sure.

In every place.

It really hurts, because you get something going, and you're working on something, and they sabotage it, or they turn it into a lousy work product, or they turn it into waste, or they, you know, leak it into some damn thing, and it's just a daily struggle.

But life's too short.

You just cannot, you know, you can't split the list every time.

If you're a rat, it's always funny.

I mean, this person might work for me.

They were all hired during the Democratic administration.

Who the hell goes in the government?

People in their law classes.

Who the hell goes in the government?

They're predisposed.

The guys in the conservatives go in and make money.

And the liberals go to government.

You know that.

That's why there's so many Jews in government.

Well.

He must not see it in personal terms.

I'll get him a little one.

All right.

He said, I'm not dating the person I know, but that's not true.

That's not true.

And generally out of San Clemente, we socialize a little bit.

And I'll have been away for 10 nights.

We'll get a chance to have a drink and talk about this.

I suppose I should know.

I say what I do is not to socialize with that person.

That's what I do.

I've never done it.

There's no good place to start to stop that.

And also, they just don't want to get to the committee room.

I think that's one of the reasons that we don't have as much backbiting as previous administrations.

Very even-handed.

Yeah, that's right.

But it's a social thing that has the deep meaning around here, and it would be misunderstood.

I mean, a lot of these guys, you know, we make a living, and they're very profitable.

Close-up.

I've had an interesting time with your son-in-law's father in the last couple of weeks.

Which one?

Cox.

Where else did he get himself involved in the Dominican sugar pool game?

Well, I think we've got to scrape him around.

I've got to be safe.

Excellent.

I want him to renounce his fee.

I seem to be doing that to everybody these days.

What's that?

I seem to be doing that to everybody these days.

Tell me about Donnie.

Donnie is back.

I talked to him on the phone.

And he's gone home for Christmas.

He's not in Goldcrap, is he?

No.

Well, I'm not positive, but I don't have any indication of the problem.

His connections in Europe with Vesco have not proved embarrassing.

I had his boss in last week.

It was a guy named Sproul.

And Trout is moving him to the Bahamas, where their banking headquarters are.

So he's out of Europe.

And I think we've locked out.

I think we came out okay.

Why do they want him?

For the White House connection.

Well, you can't... You mean they didn't feel that... Just because they...

I mean, they use his name...

Well, yeah.

I mean, Stroud hasn't been to the White House to see me.

He could have not been if it hadn't been for the fact that he was a whore.

Vesco got thrown in jail, and through Senator Sears of New Jersey, John Mitchell got him out.

What about this fellow woman?

Well, no.

The jobs that he was offered in the state of Washington are all too low salary.

He says he's been long all right, not to worry about it.

This oil deal, this oil filter thing, they pan out.

And through the Pentagon, I'm going to get a report on that.

And I told him that if it pans out, that you ought to go ahead and get in it and make some money.

And he's basically

very decent.

Eddie would never do anything wrong.

Don and Cutter-Corner.

Well, Don and Cutter-Corner, not the maliciousness.

He's not terribly bright.

He's kind of greedy.

Greedy as hell.

Between the Marriotts and Topok, they're keeping a pretty good eye on our right hand.

We get ready for it.

He's clever.

And he has cut some deals for Marriott that apparently made him some money.

He knows that business, that fair service business.

So I think that's a pretty mutually satisfactory arrangement.

The trick is to keep him out of extracurricular stuff.

Yes, he's always got something to do.

Yeah.

And so that seems to be OK. Alexander and Guthrie are down.

And they left about a seven or eight page memo with some questions in it and a flow chart that will give you a very quick reference to their idea.

I would say after the SATO session, if you have a couple hours, we ought to go through it and get some answers.

And then I can sit down with the lawyers and we can finalize the memo.

Yes, I will see you in California when you get there.

You have a report on Sunday, aren't you?

I'll probably go Monday morning.

Oh, sorry.

Well, we'll have the messages and have stuff in shape.

All right.

I'm going to stop.

So if you have time to look at it, I would ask for it if I were you.

Thank you.

Well, I agree.

Well, of course, I've got a hell of a rest period now, but I can't, because I couldn't do that.

Yeah.

That's worth doing, man.

Substitute for the rest of my life.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Let it chuckle at you, you know.

You had a very emotional, personal piece on the radio this morning, CBS.

Yeah.

And you did a piece about the war.

And he asked us a good question.

Well, actually,

Actually, they outgained them and everything, but they took no chance, no risks.

And there were two or three times, well, there was one time, particularly with the trucker that made a touchdown.

He was running the ball.

And it was one of those situations where everybody went down.

Everybody went down.

He stood there and thought about it.

You could see the, you could see the weird with the wheels turning.

And so nobody was taking any risks or any chances.

Well, that may be right.

There's a lot of sure was right in the play for the other game.

So then he got hurt.

I was sitting with Paul Martin.

Oh, Paul, isn't he a nice guy?

He's a sweet guy.

Paul was going, throw it, throw it, don't run, throw it.

You know, I don't know if I'm wrong, you know.

And that was kind of a loss.

But I think they are going to make an exciting game.

Oh, yes, you know what they're going to do.

I think they're going to do, I think Brody's going to do very good.

but I think they're gonna force him to do interceptions.

Brody doesn't get sacked, but he does get intercepted.

And of course Kilmer doesn't, which is quite unusual.

The weather's gonna be, if they ever intercept, they intercept Brody and kill him.

The Washington cornerbacks are pretty good.

They're fun to watch.

It's a very interesting thing to watch them all.

Those guys really perform.

That little guy, those little fishers.

And Mike Vance, too.

They're really outstanding.

I'm not particularly a connoisseur of the game, but you get a game like that when you have the leisure of watching some of those guys.

I'll be, uh, in for your telephone, if there's anything I can do for you.

Uh, try not to go to the ball, please.

Feel free.

You take care of Henry, I'll let you know.

I will.

I'll do my best on that.

Uh, Captain Cole will be here.

Yeah, he'll hold down this end.

You know, I'm there.

Ray and I are going to work on that, on the stadium.