Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Watergate investigation and Senate hearings

NixonWell, tell you, we have to fight back in Washington, get the sun like you know.
HaldemanThat's cold though.
NixonI know.
HaldemanI know when you got the sun, it's—it's beautiful.
NixonIt's great when—weather.
HaldemanThey are having that out in California now, though.
NixonHow are they?
HaldemanDown in the south.
NixonGood.
HaldemanIt's 80, 75 to 80 for a week.
NixonWell, that could be there though.
HaldemanThat's what I heard.
NixonWe hope. I know, but well it is February, you know, could go to March.
HaldemanYou never know, though. This time of year you get it, and then you get a cool period after that, gets cold as hell and rains. That turned quite nice yesterday.
NixonThrough March.
HaldemanYeah.
NixonWell, we've got Sammy Davis I understand for the first evening.
HaldemanYeah.
NixonI'd love the astronauts to be there.
HaldemanThat's a good one to have them to, I think.
NixonYeah. It's Well, if anyone's right, the young the young fellows'd enjoy that.
HaldemanSure, they'd enjoy it, and be a big thrill for the other people to see that, you know, with some of the astronauts.
NixonBe a big thrill for Sammy Davis. He'll get a kick out of having them.
HaldemanSo, kind of would get that off the site. I hope that they do.
NixonFine.
HaldemanYeah, terrific.
NixonI was thinking, and I guess it's a bad idea, maybe they could- No. That maybe you could combine uh Irving Berlin and Lawrence Welk.
HaldemanWell, could Welk do it? They could have Lawrence Welk be the orchestra, but then you'd be fearful that they'd be being a very, very critical of that.
NixonMy god, they turn down- they've made the critics had had had a field day with the inaugural, but it didn't bother people.
HaldemanWell, see, the orchestra wasn't Welk. The orchestra was Les Brown. And it was good.
NixonYeah, it's a little It's just real brassy, it's brassy for Irving Berlin type. But uh,
HaldemanLawrence Welk, why don't you have somebody ask him?
NixonI don't think we want to get him, if you've got an entertainer's back to show. I thought if you could get Ethel Merman to sing that night, that's what I'd catch him on.
HaldemanYeah, a great Berlin woman.
NixonYeah. Probably could. You know, you have Ethel Merman with Lawrence Welk and that'd be make it a super. [pause] And having Welk did the orchestra for that night.
HaldemanAnd then they'd have Ethel Merman and Ray Bolger and all. We all know Ray Bolger.
NixonThey're all- We just each has got to do a one one song. One number.
HaldemanIt'd be great if you get the- some of the old Irving Berlin stars.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanHe said he's working on it to try and get that, and that it's not broad like that.
NixonIs it- Are we leaving it to Steve to work it out or how is it?
HaldemanNo, no, uh, Carruthers is working on it, our producer types. And Carruthers is the best we've got now.
NixonCarruthers Carruthers, that's all right. Just so the bad weather comes on. Carruthers is fine. I have every confidence. He knows the stars, too, you know.
HaldemanYeah.
NixonWe don't know who has should be added.
HaldemanWell, those evenings, I can tell, these and terrific things for us.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanIt draws attention back to the dinner.
NixonThis is the church and all the little things, you know, the things that we have, they give a round here will perhaps not be long remembered.
HaldemanWill be longer remembered by the people who appreciate.
NixonSure, and at the time, you know, they really it builds Every press feature on the chiefs in the White House, the best feature of White House. Also, church service is probably the worst.
HaldemanAnd it's quite likely that uh in every inaugural
Nixonproblem in that you73 didn't they just, what happened is, you had the [crosstalk] 100 contributors
HaldemanIn the era when we just have a few fat cats, and 100 of those fat cats can come in. Now, we've got 150.
NixonYeah.
Haldeman150 gives gives you a name only for the persons, and the fat cats feel like they're dropped into church and into,
NixonFine.
Haldemanand you've got the fat cats who will look at you, look at, uh, you know, that's what, church,
NixonWell, we could even do it with 200 fat, come on.
HaldemanWe could take 100 of the fats.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanAnd just scatter a few of that sort.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanWe could get 100 special.
NixonSure.
HaldemanWe could get,
Nixonjust for church.
HaldemanSo,
Nixonall of the fat cats.
Haldemanfine.
NixonAnd wait to follow up on your plan.
HaldemanProbably,
Nixonyeah.
HaldemanYeah, it's good crack, sort of that, February and March, right through Easter and that sort of stuff that, you know, wouldn't catch.
NixonWell, I want to look at the schedule for February, and then the.
HaldemanYeah, and they can go from Dean and his outfit with this stuff.
NixonYeah. The, uh, I see they got to you through the water.
HaldemanNo, they got to him, all right. That is true. It wasn't one of, they didn't get any in the curtains they had on the first.
NixonFirst.
HaldemanThis guy, uh,
NixonColson's stuff. It's not going to be good.
HaldemanExcept Colson's.
NixonWhy didn't my boys phone?
HaldemanYeah.
NixonWell, I think they're off.
HaldemanYeah, we are.
NixonYeah, as of now, although you can't say, or even breathe the word, but it looks as if we got, uh,
HaldemanColson's staff.
Nixonthat IRS, George Webster.
HaldemanGeorge Webster anyway. Howard Baker knows him. He's from Tennessee originally.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanNow we really don't need, actually, a counsel for us to force all that through. That's what Dean was saying. That you know where you go just Look at it, what we really need is
Nixona guy who will, who'll cross-examine the other side, so that he'd be an Howard and Howard-
HaldemanAn- who's That's right, who has the guts to weigh in.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanDean, I mean, uh, Baker's got some guy that's assistant U.S. Attorney out in Tennessee.
Nixon[sighs]
Haldeman30 years old, and he wants to bring in, and Tim talked with him. He's That's who Howard's talking to tomorrow. Bring him in as a second-
NixonWell, that's what they may do. The Tennessee boy-
Haldemanthis kid would be so totally dazzled by being brought into Washington that he'd be completely lost.
HaldemanNow, Howard Baker has asked to meet privately with you on an unannounced basis on the Watergate thing. He wants, wants guidance.
HaldemanAnd Timmons passes it along saying it's a call that he can't even make a recommendation because he shouldn't make a recommendation on it, but it's what the Senator would prefer. Now Timmons thinks you
Nixonought to see him.
Haldemanon the basis, well at least ought to consider it, on the basis that
NixonAnd he won't tell people he saw me.
HaldemanWell, that, if he will, then you shouldn't see him. I mean, if there's any thought that he might. If he won't, and he's made the point that he wants an unannounced, back door, uh, meeting. Uh,
Haldemanthat he, it's the first open hand of his seeking some guidance from here, and Timmons thinks he does want guidance, and that all you would want to do is say you don't have any,
Haldemanuh, any knowledge or involvement yourself, and you can't give him any guidance except that he should work closely with John Dean and Wally Johnson, who are the two guys here who can be
Haldemanhelpful to him, and who represent you, and will, uh, know the White House side of it, and he can confide in them, and whatever, but, something like that.
NixonWhat about the Georgetown fellow? I'd better leave him--
HaldemanDean--
NixonDean?
HaldemanUh, he may have ties. Apparently Dean says that he thinks he's tied to Kennedy. That's not direct,
Haldemanif he has ties to Kennedy. We'll probably know instead, man.
HaldemanHe's, they're pieced Dean's already launched a research project on the guy. And, I think Virginia, uh,
Haldemanthey're working on that, and and they're going to try and get some public stuff out on him. The question, then,
Nixon[unintelligible]
HaldemanI wondered if, if, uh, hell I think, alright well the question, would you want to hear, what do you want to get together with, with Dean in the early one?
HaldemanAnd what all the sayings be, what we're doing here. There are a couple, the, things that he that I think we,
Haldemanyou need to be involved in early. So that, I don't know, I'm not sure you want to do that with, with other people. Yeah.
NixonYeah.
NixonNo. Oh, one thing I want to tell you on this morning, uh, this conversation I've had with, we got into the name, talking to Ehrlichman about it. Uh,
Nixonwe, uh, Henry did talk to them about, uh, possible, in the future. He would comment, and he would probably know where Mike is on the thing, desired, and uh,
NixonI called, so you sort of throw that off a little bit, but Henry, uh, did light a fire, and the right people find the hostage thing is off, for sure, the hostage there,
Nixonwhatever. And they will, uh, they will see walk. So what I have, with all of them, it's frankly up to you and Jerry to work it out. You and Jerry and, I'd say,
Nixonvery close to the whole place, it's sorrow. Look over all of them, uh, and we'll see that the House fixes it, and is the right sheet on it. So, I just want to pass that pass that on to you.
HaldemanOkay.
NixonYeah. Fine. I'll do that.
HaldemanWell, I don't know whether you want to or not. The things that, well I have a Dean memo, things that would be covered at a later, the question of Baker being The Baker meeting I'll do.
HaldemanThe question, okay, and uh how, how are you to steer it?
HaldemanWell, that's the other, first, whether you see him alone. I think you should.
NixonI'd better see him alone, so nobody knows [unintelligible]
HaldemanSee, what they have the feeling, and I think it's properly made sense, is that he'll work with your staff, but he's concerned that your staff,
NixonMaybe, does he get a bite of someone, John or anybody else?
HaldemanThey're, they're involved. Yeah.
HaldemanAnd, uh, I can talk to him because I conducted a thorough investigation, and said, "There's no"
NixonYeah. "there's no problem with the staff, they're clean." Fine, I may, and I had nothing to do with it at all. And uh,
Haldemanthe thought was that you might want to do it just before or after this thing this afternoon, because he's coming down for the support people.
NixonI think I think that, after, the four o'clock thing in the office, I think it'd be shorter.
HaldemanOkay.
HaldemanYeah, and he'd ought to, not come in at the same time. You should get in here, like it would be in here at 4:30, wish.
NixonWell, you don't have to see him very long.
NixonI don't want I don't want to be that close to 4:00. 4:00, yeah, special. I had on the road then.
HaldemanOkay, we'll tell him. The question's whether the sense stands up for confirmation.
HaldemanAnd the strategy of whether we want to do it, well let's do it wherever you're looking. We don't know if Simms
Haldemanwants to do it at this moment. You shouldn't do it unless he even wants to.
NixonEarlier, he did want to.
NixonWell, what's the consensus?
HaldemanConsensus is to do it. Okay.
HaldemanThen, Bob, uh, the President will see Howard at, uh, 4:00 if he can, right back at the EOB office.
HaldemanAll right, and he'll see him alone.
HaldemanAnd, I would say, on an unannounced basis.
HaldemanOkay. Very good.
HaldemanUh,
HaldemanConsensus is that it that it's a good idea.
HaldemanAnd, we, we'd move it quickly. Get it get it up there. So, then if it doesn't get done before they ring the bell, right?
HaldemanMy feeling's yes. I think, for the sake of Simms, asking him to go back door, instead of going through
NixonJust like Gray has said [unintelligible] as clear as a whistle. Yeah. [unintelligible]
HaldemanNext one is, damn crook. He's had a problem with him, and then we've got to keep him on an even keel,
Haldemanbut he he is just totally determined, he's had a lot of soundings and all, that he's got to get back in the government to work somewhere. He thinks he's completely cleared himself,
Haldemanwhich he did, he did a hell of a job in court, and and he's going to do a hell of a job in the Senate hearings,
Haldemanthat Dean is very concerned about keeping him on balance through this.
Haldemanthree leaning up to a triple. And what he wants is to is to have a staff job at the Bicentennial. But we come up with an idea, is to make him a consultant for the Bicentennial project
Haldemanon an interim basis while it's being torn apart and rebuilt, structured, which we can do so that he's not on the White House staff. It's a fairly natural transition for
NixonThe Bicentennial Commission.
HaldemanYeah. Let them retain him as a consultant. And just be working there, which would buy his time through there. But we got one problem is keeping him on on tap during that time through the hearings. He's got, there is a hell of a problem. A guy
Haldemanlike Magruder, he can't very well go out and get a a job at at this point, which he doesn't want to do anyway. And what he wants to do is stay in the White House.
NixonIt's very hard, isn't it? Well, we have to clear our decks anyway.
HaldemanAnd, it's clear he's not on the White House staff. All right, then. I don't think he should be on the White House staff. I agree. We have to steer through the dart, so she's not. I can't be in the White House. The Bicentennial is a government commission, in a sense.
NixonWell, but, I mean, if I don't if I don't appoint him. If you don't appoint him, they're nothing to do with it.
HaldemanAnd the other thought was to take the real bowl away, put him up for confirmation, too, for another job that required confirmation. He come, he'd do well in it. But the problem is after he's done well, they confirm him in the job, he could still get sunk
Haldemanat the hearings. Sloan is, he is still vulnerable in a sense because of Sloan. If Sloan blows something, he could he could hang Magruder. If he hangs Magruder, the whole house of cards starts tumbling down, then. So, does Magruder hang Mitchell?
NixonHang Mitchell? Only place I don't think he would, though. Sloan wouldn't hang Mitchell. But Sloan would hang Magruder, and then Sloan
HaldemanAnyway, yeah. Nobody knows for sure, what's, you know, apparently, does he use And he can't, in a way, he can't hang, they can only hang Magruder circumstantially, apparently.
NixonWell, it's circumstantial to part of that.
HaldemanThat's why I think the Bicentennial is the way out, it's what he wants, so that it's also a way to keep in at it.
NixonWell, keeping him happy in his frame of mind today, is important. It's quite fine.
HaldemanThen, the other thing that, by that, or another thing that we've reached, the question I raised to you earlier, the Hammond's observer-spokesman, and you know, didn't want Colson is not the right guy for that, because he is is a witness, and a potential, uh, you know, he's is involved, but then he's not, but he's viewed.
HaldemanThe argument, one is, we can't is that is that they're so they want public to perceive the same critique Colson [unintelligible] back off from this. And the basic question is whether the White House is going to sit quietly and take the unwarranted abuse that comes out of the hearings, and the press report.
HaldemanAnd, we can't run a secret PR effort, so why not do it openly? And do it respectfully, in the manner of Buchanan. Calls the press to task, and you know, make certain that whatever partisanship is is there, is brought out, and praise some of the work that's done. Take a look at that, both sides, of course.
HaldemanThere's it's a I I it's a real risk here, I think. Is Colson right? I don't know whether we'd gain more, or lose more by it. I'm afraid that you'd lose more, potentially, then. Haven't talked with Buchanan.
HaldemanSo, I don't know what his views would be, on that.
NixonSeems to me it's better to let the spokesmanship come from, inadequate though it may be, whatever is is maintained at the 1701 thing, let them do it, the partisan whatever.
Nixon[unintelligible] just don't believe you do, I believe it has to be done, but I don't think you have to be that close [unintelligible]
HaldemanOkay. All right, I don't can't argue that. Better than finding somebody that's up, you know, like a [unintelligible] party.
HaldemanThen, the other question, which is he feels Kleindienst, of course, is a potential mess. Getting the AG back on the reservation. The problem is that Kleindienst is is angry, and bitter about using his time,
Haldemanin their view, doing their job. And, getting ready to go out.
HaldemanBut, he has total loyalty to you. If he's asked to take an active concern in the fallout of the hearings and the hearings, he will do so. Otherwise, he will say, "This is non-substantive. It's a PR area." And the view is that he should be asked to stay in office one full year,
Haldemanin other words, until the hearings are past. Which would be the fallout, because the hearings may well result in a request for additional action by the Justice Department. There shouldn't be a new AG in. And that
Haldemanhe can get Henry Petersen to handle sensitive problems Petersen has total loyalty to Kleindienst, and has done a superb job, and knows all the stuff. And, each ways, we can't afford bitterness in the Justice Department, and can't risk a new attorney general coming in, to grapple with some of the problems.
HaldemanDick said that we agree to keep him on for a while. He's got to agree not to stay on a while longer. And he's got to coddle his fucking ass. I think that's worth big stuff to you. I think you might put an arm around his shoulder.
HaldemanNow, those were the things that John I don't think you're up to a final round.
HaldemanProbably, because you get the same factor there, that you do with Baker. I think Kleindienst wants to sweat. You know, if I get into it, or John, or Well, you can't have Dean, who's your counsel, to work with him. Well, I wondered if you if I talked to Kleindienst, he's going to stay, though.
HaldemanIf I just hold off, that's right. I can shoot that
NixonThat's right. One likely in the article which Haldeman talked about, I wonder if you
Nixonknow, in a way, why the hell would I require a guy who wanted to be who wanted to be in the middle of a Watergate deal.
HaldemanWell, the the article specifically mentioned Watergate, which [unintelligible] right?
NixonYeah, he is an expert, [crosstalk] a guy whose water broke.
HaldemanRight.
NixonHe should be. Well, they have no confidence in the way the press and the senators are going to go forward. That's fair.
HaldemanThat's right. The reality is that he's the guy they have to deal with. He is actively concerned.
NixonRight.
HaldemanCan you handle things?
NixonI don't mind you writing, that's fine if you can. Yes.
HaldemanWell, I think the fact that we can do that a different way. Pat can do this, especially if they're televised, he can sit and watch it on television and see how they act. And be a strategist. Back up, don't let anybody know it, but let's then have, have Shumway over there come out and say whatever he can and wants to say.
NixonI think that's it. Make sure that they can hang this to the Democratic.
HaldemanAnd he speaks, in other words, he's the he should be the command post. That's what, let's start making him the command post of PR, more and more, and let him have Shumway.
NixonDeep breath.
HaldemanYes, sir. I'll get that.
NixonThere can't be in the hearings.
HaldemanI don't know who will attend.
HaldemanIn a way, it's more important to watch it on TV, because that's the way that people see it than it is to be in the hearing room where you see
Haldemana whole lot else, but the pieces of
NixonI'm not sure we know, how about,
Haldemanthe cameras, we'll run 6, 7 hours a day if network covers this, right? They won't gas for it.
NixonNo, surely.
HaldemanMaybe kinds of stuff, and it'll be a whole lot more entertaining than soap operas if they have the sense to show the thing.
NixonRight.
HaldemanOh, I don't think so, because we're just going to try to cancel the show for that period.
NixonWell, of course, what it is, basically, is so much Watergate [unintelligible].
KissingerDr. Kissinger, come in. Come on in, Henry. Go ahead and sit down.
NixonI was sitting with the Vice President.
KissingerAnd, uh, uh, just mark him down for to see ya. [laughter] [crosstalk] Uh-huh. Uh, but, uh
HaldemanHe called me and said, "Well, I thought you were doing him separately?"
NixonHe called me and said, "Could you explain to me why I was excluded from the leadership?" And I said, "Mr. Vice President, you are not excluded from the leadership. You were not included because this was for the specific leadership, for Congressional leaders to cover a subject that only leaders covered. But I told him what you said. That's, uh I said, uh,
KissingerMr. President, that's what I said to him, too.
Nixonyou had asked me to come over. That's In fact, I had made the appointment with you before I knew about the meeting. I had to react quickly.
KissingerSo, I called him this morning, uh, at 8:00, and uh, let let's be fair, he was fine. So, uh, I think you wanted him to get a quick book and I just described what I did. And he had only good ideas to express. Uh,
NixonYeah.
Kissingerhe had this good, but it's not the fact that he was excluded. We have one problem, Mr. President. After the ceasefire,
NixonYeah.
Kissingerthe North Vietnamese took a town in Laos. And Souvanna has asked us to bomb it. I think we should. I think we have to tell these, uh,
NixonYeah.
Kissingermake clear to the North Vietnamese, we're not we're not that eager.
KissingerIf they get away with this thing, they're going to be pushing at the edges. Now, what about the,
Nixonyou know, does the ceasefire apply to Laos?
KissingerCeasefire went into effect at noon today, their time, which was 0:00 last night. And we've had a few little skirmishes, but I think it's better
NixonWe're yesterday's violation.
KissingerI think if we hit them, no, how about the truck plant, there? Well, that, too, but I think that we should hit that before um to hit the truck plants is another thing.
NixonThe tracks the big
KissingerAnd bomb the areas which they take, so that
NixonWhat will the effect of this will it be hell for
KissingerNo, they haven't because they haven't even used people to produce an attack.
NixonI'm sure. Right. My feeling is, I read, I noticed this morning, something like 13 miles.
KissingerSomething like that. Uh-huh. Well, they had three days to take that. They didn't take it until after the ceasefire.
KissingerThat's. But I think if you put strikes in Cambodia and strike in Laos, which
Kissingerand that's easier for us to do that than to do it in Vietnam.
NixonAnd we don't want to go to Vietnam unless the violation is shit, but we can do that. Right. We could bomb into Laos, well then the
KissingerWell, and I think we tell them,
KissingerAlsop is beside himself. He says, he thinks what you're pulling off is one of the greatest things, game of chess. Yeah.
KissingerIn fact, he had already devised this, that you're playing the Chinese press. He's had premier press. Oh, god. What did he think of it? He wants to do it, to heal the rift with the press. Well, he wants to do, he says, he was with a host of forty of others.
NixonYeah.
KissingerAnd he said Phil Geyelin and Meg Greenfield acted as if they'd eaten oysters with lemon juice.
KissingerWashington Post, they're like sourpusses. And he said all of them were jaw and they said, well, everything is working. [laughter]
NixonDid he say that?
KissingerHe just had absolute pleasure. He said he was depressed, but everything you were doing is working. And that he is against everything everyday.
KissingerNow he would like to do a column slamming the liberals on the aid. But he
Kissingerhe would like to do it in a way in which he claims that this is a report from me to you, that it is factuous.
NixonNo.
KissingerYeah, that I have, in fact, reported to you. Uh, I'm afraid that if we got it all back together we've got to make it, perhaps, easier for the liberals to come back.
NixonYou know what I mean? Neither, some of them are got to come back.
KissingerI don't I don't know what I think that's right. I don't think it's good for Henry to write it.
NixonThat can't be tied to you. Just think of that. If he was
KissingerIf I If I want to attack the liberals, I want to do it myself. I could do Joe Alsop. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, he's going to have to call Ziegler and ask for permission, but could you please tell Ziegler not to give permission.
NixonOh, yes, and Henry's direction is that this is was, in fact, a report that I gave to you and we can all together in December.
KissingerYeah. But I think it's bad for Scoop, too. Maybe, we don't think maybe you shouldn't tell Terry Townsend everywhere. I think that Henry's got to clear your mind. Oh, no. I understand. Because this so sick that you cannot understand.
NixonWell, it's bad. I think I agree. I think getting you into, you got to be able to talk to Scoop. I think, but he is absolutely, he says this is the greatest foreign policy
Haldeman[unintelligible] I mean the, you know, the close people have always handled it that way.
KissingerNow, they kind of have 15, 20. And half of the 100 people are gonna have 11. And the rest kind of heard it. And after the briefing, I'm not that the other people didn't know anything about the briefing.
HaldemanIt's packs together.
KissingerHe couldn't have had a better press for you because plenty of members of the press had already had the briefing, [unintelligible]
NixonYeah.
Kissingerand uh you've got that awful Democrat, that fellow from Oklahoma, who's been a real stinker on this. Now, he's saying that the President had a great day.
HaldemanThey psych him out.
KissingerIt's marvelous.
NixonNow, you know, I, actually,
NixonI think if I had thought earlier this morning, I might have had Agnew to it, but I do not have him in those full groups.
NixonMy very real [unintelligible] Mansfield and Scott. I don't have him, on purpose.
HaldemanWell, I almost raised yesterday the question of whether you wanted to add him to it, and I figured, "No, you didn't."
NixonWell, but you didn't because it, it'd do no harm, but I think what it does though, elevates him to a different plane. There's a risk of harm in that because he asks
HaldemanWell, but just in front of the leaders, if you don't want to, you don't have [crosstalk] to raise.
Kissinger[crosstalk] Or, you might have told him to go, he's interested because he works in the office of-
NixonYeah.
KissingerBecause he says to Harrod, you'll be quite interested to find, and so forth. Trouble is, a guy with a little bit of foreign knowledge knows a hell of a lot.
NixonAnd Agnew, like with the little bit that he knows, why he'll spit it for whatever it's worth. See, Agnew didn't have the experience that I did. To stop that, they stole mine.
Kissinger[unintelligible]
NixonWhen I was 33 years of age, I could, I took this long trip to Europe right after I had served. I had the experience.
KissingerHe does have your brains. He doesn't read.
NixonWell, he made a good report, I must say, of the trip, but the trouble is, it's superficial. He makes great, that's it, he makes great,
KissingerYeah.
Nixonhe's observant, he reports, but he does not understand, yet. And that isn't insulting, but he doesn't know the simple, you talk to him, and uh you indicate that I told you to brief him.
KissingerYeah.
HaldemanOh, yeah, no, no, I told him you had asked me. Yeah.
KissingerI, it occurred to me this morning that stupid this thing this, earlier today to give him a call, and I said,
NixonWell, but he called after the breakfast.
KissingerI called him right after my press briefing [unintelligible] I was, I said I would just like to know Mr. Vice President if at any time you'd like an idea of my trip, I'll be delighted.
KissingerHe said, "Well, this is too good." And I told him then that he picked up on the fact that he was when I was [unintelligible]
HaldemanI don't remember if you told me before you had a matter [unintelligible] I thought you called him afterwards.
KissingerBefore that.
NixonWell, anyway, I mean it's after that so, it's, it's a small matter. It's a small matter in the sense that uh, it's uh that uh that uh, it's a very small matter.
NixonI think, for example, look at this damn thing, my God. You know, during the entire all the years I was vice president, I came to the White House. I what I mean is,
NixonI came I came down, I sat in Jerry Persons' office or I sat in Sherman Adams' office to discuss it. I'd haul up there to talk to him. He never comes to your office.
HaldemanNo.
NixonIt's unbelievable. We made him send a wave of reporters up to his office.
HaldemanYeah.
NixonAnd always keeps us waiting.
KissingerDoes he?
NixonYes.
HaldemanAlways. Used to be.
KissingerWell, that is, it would be funny as long as-
HaldemanHe always makes, and there's never anybody in his office, but it's it's so much of a pattern that they make you stand around.
KissingerOh, so that you know he's, you know, respected.
NixonNow, my gosh.
NixonWell, anyway, you brief him, but tell him the announcement he and uh-
KissingerTell him that he didn't know that I called. If he asks-
NixonOh, I, I indicated, no, no.
KissingerNow Bob did call, that was all right. Now Bob did mention the press conference. He didn't say who called him.
NixonYou see, Scott said, he agreed that uh [unintelligible] or to Pittsburgh, which was, they asked a question well frankly, we didn't understand.
Kissinger[unintelligible] asked who was Scott? Or that, couldn't he have Yeah. one violent question, [unintelligible]
Haldeman[laughter]
NixonSo, aren't these sentences-
KissingerI mean they think doing a bad show that is, uh
KissingerWell, I get a whole flock of uh Bob Hope can put tens of [unintelligible]
NixonHe just, he, he gives his life to Bob Hope.
KissingerThat is, that, oh, I didn't catch Bob Hope.
NixonThat's his life drink. He goes,
KissingerWe've got to be glad that he tired, though.
NixonHuh?
KissingerThey were trying to find an entertainment and whether they could find Bob Hope. They wanted these two things: they wanted the film on high and Hope.
HaldemanNice show.
KissingerOh, that's not for Shan-gri.
NixonThey'd be glad to have Bob Hope, I bet.
KissingerThey want to see what he is.
HaldemanOr, the next, whatever it is. All right, and uh
KissingerIt's too late. I'm going to pass Bob Hope.
NixonNow, will they ask, not going to ask Hope?
KissingerNo.
NixonIt's whether they need to supply Bob Hope.
KissingerNo.
KissingerHe doesn't want to perform there. He just wants to go as a pastor and uh take this on.
NixonWell, I'll tell you Henry, that you just simply follow what is awful. Go on in, rest.
KissingerWell, on Agnew, that's uh, that's the case where we just have a constant problem, unfortunately.
NixonHow did he explain the about that?
KissingerHe's just not sure what his plans are.
NixonWell, did you, his plans are, he's just sure what his standing is.
KissingerStanding is.
NixonThat's right.
KissingerStanding, he has more opportunities, he's been treated better, far better, than any vice president in history, Mr. President.
NixonI have never seen a vice president treated like this.
KissingerWhat you did for him at the convention, what you've done for him all along,
NixonWell, I I think that's fair. But, I do think this, that the way the way it would've been done with me when I was Vice President is that I would've heard about it, not that he came back
Nixonlike that Dulles, what place can Kissinger, or Dulles, very nicely, wrong,
KissingerRight.
Nixonand there'd just, you know, I'd, Dulles would make his report, I'd sit there and listen with everybody else. I didn't deal with the Vice President. I had to have him in the crack. He would never report to the President, he'd report to the Vice President.
NixonOr, they'd send some little sad man to your office who'd sit down after you finally got a sad man, that would've been, and brief, brief a question.
KissingerYeah.
NixonNo.
KissingerWell, it's better for you to do it, I mean and uh-
NixonWell, I ordered those strikes in Laos.
KissingerGood. In Laos and Cambodia, Mr. President. I think you should do it.
NixonRight.
NixonGet him back to the U.S.
KissingerThat's right, to make sure he sees what it is.
NixonI guess we won't ship turf today.
KissingerIt got pretty bad now.
NixonWhy's he took so damn long?
Haldeman[unintelligible]
HaldemanHe said the next need is about the hearing thing. I think the Watergate thing is extremely dangerous, and also I think they have a problem.
HaldemanAnd caller to caller among them there would be appeals for [unintelligible] money. I approve the hearings for the exchange to get together.
HaldemanHe's ready. That's right. That's where they're at. A funny thing about there's not been any investigation spirit.
HaldemanNo, he's still worried. Working to secure people. This one Dean can't figure out. Because he has, we all have the same feeling, that's what they're gonna play with.
HaldemanI mean they're beating on Watergate, aren't they?
HaldemanThey're not doing a hell of a lot on that except trying to make sure to get a hold of it. First, they got their staff, but, you know, they're going to count them. They're not going to start their hearings, apparently, till the end of April. That's what I heard. Oh.
NixonWell, it'll go on and on, then.
HaldemanYeah. It'll cross their ear, right?
NixonYeah. Yeah.
HaldemanHello? Todd, would you, uh, see if we are not connected in California?
HaldemanYeah. See if, uh, er, [unintelligible]
HaldemanFine, fine. Uh. Uh, no, I- I got that. Yeah.
HaldemanUh, yes, they want to discuss, uh, our kind of er, uh, program. Well, I want to talk to them also. Yeah.
HaldemanNow uh, each channel, you can tell. But the, uh, things are fine out there.
HaldemanHe said, hey, and sit down for me. Here and, uh, be at the office. What John would like to do is have them meet first, without you, thinking that spend their time, huh, and, uh,
Haldemanbut at 5:00, then meet with you at the end of it for an hour [unintelligible]
NixonIf- if at all. Yeah. And it's probably just me and you.
HaldemanThey probably, actually they don't, they don't need to, they can have their first meeting today. But I would say, at that point, probably you need, bring in, uh, a couple of others.
HaldemanYeah, and what he thought if you were going to go up to Camp David later, it would be better for them to go on up, meet up there, and then meet with you at the end.
NixonI will, I already went to Camp David, but, uh, I turned off another reason I picked that this program. We're having to go 1/2 hour later. Three-quarters of an hour can't go anywhere till then. We've got 20 hours
HaldemanHe's- he's got to do it then. Huh. He's got to do his program at noon. And Shultz has a, um,
Haldemanpress conference, lunch at the, they couldn't leave at 12:30 anyway. They can't go until about 2:30. Well, then we could go to Camp David early if they want. And they could go on up about 2:30 or 3:00. Fine.
HaldemanFine. And then they could, or then meet with you at the end of that to tell If you're going to go up, if you want, it'd better be a little later so that they can go up.
NixonYeah. Then I may, well, I don't want to go at that time. 2:30 or 3:00, probably not. I don't want to go that early anyway. Okay. I might. I might. I might just try to go that early. Yes.
NixonWait. Then, come that over, and come to the other. Yeah.
HaldemanSee, that would get 3:30, they could meet from 3:30 to 6:00, or 6:30, and then, then, meet with you at 6:30,
NixonI don't want to have dinner with them, though. Okay, then. See, that's why I I've, I- I've, I had only suggested that because I thought it would be a good fit. I don't give a shit.
HaldemanIf that's, that's, a good idea. It really is. I agree. I was surprised you suggested it.
NixonWell, I suggested it because I wanted to get them back out of the way. Huh.
HaldemanWell, then fine. Then they can meet with you at 6:00, and they have to leave at 7:00. Meet you at 5:30. 5:30, and be through
Nixonby 6:30. 1/2 hour would be plenty, 4:00 is better, better ample, for 5:30.
NixonAnd I have some other things I'd like to talk to them, too.
HaldemanOkay.
NixonWell, it's, it really got down to shit. Oh, oh, oh.
NixonThat's sort of a, an odd cross of the, of the parents.
HaldemanWell, they expect the hearings to go for a year. Hell, they count they have a year. See, they have to report no later than February next year.
HaldemanNext, uh, they don't expect it today.
HaldemanDick Helms called, said you had said you would, uh, like to see him prior to the prior to March 1st.
HaldemanYeah, he just called me about the, well, any time before March 1st, so he wanted to know if we could set up something, you know, whenever you're [unintelligible]
HaldemanAnd, the Executive Privilege statement that you were going to release tomorrow, which was to have been after your press conference, you indicated that, you know, you wanted it out while after the press conference question, do you now want it held
Haldemanuntil after your press conference next week, or go ahead and release it tomorrow?
NixonNo, I'd rather, John has to get it released as soon as they can, but it can be held a few more days, well, there's a, I think on the balance, it's better for you to do it after the press conference,
Nixonbecause, like I don't want to get, be questioned on, well, will it cover this and that and that. So, I'd like for them to release it uh, on Wednesday.
HaldemanWednesday? All right.
NixonHow about that? Might get the question on, well, how I'm saying that out of that time. Yes, then, I'll say, I won't comment on that, because the whole matter is, it's not,
Nixonit isn't something that I want to be bagged about, like uh, yeah, they're on call every time, in all the different perspectives, it's like this.
HaldemanThat's better for you. Bush called, wanted to be sure that you knew
Haldemanhe'd heard from you, and Carey, uh, that there is a possibility, and she seems to think it's fairly good, that that Bob Michel is going to make a move to that Bob Wilson's job.
HaldemanBob Wilson steps out rather than risk running and going to the rounds. If that If that happens, Michel will get it, he'll beat Brennan and all the five.
HaldemanAnd Brown, he thinks, will stay on as the campaign committee chairman, and, Bush's view, we should just stay out of it and let that happen. He says Michel is
NixonTotally acceptable.
HaldemanFine, that would be just as good, and he'd still have Brennan for recruitment anyway, so you could have Michel work on two things. That's right.
NixonMichel. That's right. That's fine.
HaldemanHe just wanted to be sure you didn't want him to get into doing anything on it.
NixonWe've got no commitment.
Haldemanit's not our fight. I know, Paul, stay out of it. He also raised a question of what to do with this new, uh, with this left-over money.
NixonFrom the campaign?
HaldemanPart of it's from the campaign, yeah.
HaldemanWell, except that he, he's sort of worried about it, all this, that you're a political guy, and
Haldemanyou know, what, what do you want done with it?
HaldemanHe's just uh, wants to get into the space. Well, um, he, he thinks the best thing to do is- is go use it on a, on an illegality
Haldemancampaign for Congress, and set up a, an all-out, congressional
Haldemaneffort for the, for majority in the congressional districts. And, uh,
Haldeman[unintelligible] trying to put put something like that together, rather than giving it to the staff.
NixonWell, I can only make one suggestion, Bob. I'm too [unintelligible] based on our campaign experience. Bob, listen to what I've learned.
NixonThen, not one goddamn cent for staff.
HaldemanYeah. Well, you know, we just
NixonWe spent, God we spent we spent, perhaps of our $48 million, we spent $25 million for staff. It doesn't make any sense.
NixonWhat I'd like to do is this: this should go into districts on a case-by-case basis and have cold cash in the districts.
HaldemanWell, now, I don't think they'll they'll need to pick up the bills in the district. You don't give them cold cash.
NixonAll right, well they shouldn't give it in that thing either. We will pay We will pick up bills in districts, and that's the way that you do it.
HaldemanWell, I can make that at least, that's the that's a back that the the Nixon administration anyway.
NixonOh, well, it's a campaign, and it's not to be and it's it's not to be sorry that it's distributed among the Senatorial Campaign Committee and the Stennis—the Scott-Tower
Nixonsome of them are running for reelection next time. Some may take pride that Brock did, something like that. Tell everybody. I can't say how about that, too, I mean, I want Brock to get into business, but
Nixonthe point is, I think you'd better get to George on that. Sure they don't, it doesn't go to staff, it doesn't go to Beall, then.
NixonYou know, and all that sort of thing. George is an old minded, this Beall method won't do it. But, just let them raise that for other purposes. I think this money,
Nixonso far, really ought to go directly into into campaign. Don't don't make commitments of hurry out of $200,000 to, right, to candidates and then goes to managers again. See what I mean?
HaldemanIt will, for certain districts.
NixonI'd say we can listen. We We can set up an advertising campaign, a mail campaign for the candidates.
NixonOurselves, for a limited number of, in all new districts.
HaldemanRight, make it clear.
NixonNo money for Sorry, this, for, new targeted districts and new targeted states. How about governors?
HaldemanMaybe.
NixonHuh? Maybe. If you got If you got fairly clear incumbents
Nixonthat I would say all new. No incumbents. The incumbents must raise their own, back their own, and pay it.
NixonAnd uh no other hand outs to be allowed. Okay, that's what uh
HaldemanNow we're going to push, but you ought to just be aware of it, we're going to push uh [unintelligible]
Haldemanwell, Elliot, as tough Jack Marsh, you know, as their as their congressional guy. [unintelligible] congressional, Chris. The best candidate Chris, he'd be just superb. He didn't get the Democrats.
NixonElliot thinks he ought to have a liberal.
HaldemanOh Christ!
NixonWhich is absurd. But we've got to get the Democratic hawks.
HaldemanElliot's got to get the HEW budget, then Stennis, Stennis cut these all worked out everywhere except defense, and Elliot's trying to get his back up, so we're going to have [unintelligible]
NixonHe just what's the, I can say that I've examined this, and I've worked with this for years. We can't get liberals on defense. It cannot be done. There are no votes there.
HaldemanAnd we got to hang onto our [unintelligible]
NixonElliot's gotta work that side of the street. He hasn't needed, you got to Marsh is damn [unintelligible] not bad for a liberal either.
HaldemanAnd we've got to do it. We We gotta pull Marsh into that thing.
NixonRight. And then Elliott the guy who speaks, right. He promised we owe it to Marsh for this one.
HaldemanMy idea is that uh Timmons and Dean head up a meeting with Baker,
Haldemanand also, we've got the research Oh, they got your executive privilege statement periodically, if you wanted to get into that album, but I don't think you want to, anyway.
NixonOh Christ, no. I'm not worried about that.
HaldemanNo, okay. You make it in a press conference.
NixonWell, I'm glad Timmons is talking to Dean about it. We've got to see what That's right.
NixonWhat does it just for my guidance, what does my studies say on that, though? They won't watch this thing, very definitely. But I'm sure that we can't state at this time whether we'll provide witnesses, that's what, that's our policy.
HaldemanRight.
NixonIt may be it will compromise for the sworn written interrogation, right?
HaldemanOur general guidance is the same: see if you get them to hold as quickly as possible, because they really are a potential witch hunt.
NixonUm-hum.
HaldemanAnd the appearance of this, apparent in all government officials and the government itself.
HaldemanNeed procedures to protect their rights, and should protect rights to minority members,
NixonAll right.
Haldemanand all that kind of stuff, who are liable to hurt. Be sure to get a tough minority counsel, who's aware of the way things operate in Washington, and who can handle a guy like Sam Dash, the majority counsel.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanWell, Baker's appointed Fred Thompson as minority counsel.
NixonA tough kid?
HaldemanI guess so.
NixonA good lawyer, though.
HaldemanYeah, well, that's why they felt you ought to see Baker, but he is too late, and so forth, and uh, well
NixonYou got to want to have Dean call.
HaldemanYeah. What Dean preserves our posture on executive privilege, which is good.
HaldemanWally is his initial contact point, but he can always go up to uh to Kleindienst.
HaldemanHe may feel more comfortable dealing with a congressional guy than with a guy, so I'd leave it up to him. From our viewpoint, either one is fine. It's whatever
NixonWhatever works. Harley is better, but he knows Wally, and probably
HaldemanAnd he is an honorable man. From our viewpoint, dealing with the people in the party, it's good we can add
NixonIt's too bad Howard didn't check that, because uh you never know who these people. I guess that's the kid. I couldn't say.
NixonHell, is this Fred Thompson the young guy from Tennessee?
HaldemanYes.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanDo you know him?
NixonYeah. Yeah.
UnknownYeah.
UnknownYeah.
UnknownYeah.
Haldeman[unintelligible] that would be good.
UnknownPretty good.
HaldemanYeah.
HaldemanYeah.
HaldemanOkay. Very good. That is a good name, [unintelligible]
HaldemanRight. Okay. On the basis [unintelligible]
UnknownYeah.
HaldemanRight. Okay. Do you want [unintelligible]
HaldemanNo.
HaldemanThey already have. And they they were going to The little problem was they were going to hold up on this and work out a deal where the two of them, you know, this co-counsel or associate counsel or something like that. Right. So, says they still say they'll they'll approach Webster on on the basis of associate counsel.
HaldemanWell, then that's all right. Webster'll automatically, you know, he's only associate counsel, override this guy just by weight. Yeah. Go with Thompson. Although he says,
HaldemanBaker and his people are very high on this this Thompson guy. They think he's a hell of a guy. Well, you never know. A real infighter. But he it they say he is a real infighter, you know? Maybe he'll
Haldemancome on very good.
HaldemanIt might be all right with that.
HaldemanI wanted to go ahead here as as he said,
Haldemanyou assist us [unintelligible]
HaldemanHell, yeah, let them get that out, too. If they would, it would be a trigger. It's
Haldemansure like throwing meat, he's icy shed.
HaldemanI think he shed. I'll see he gets a couple.
HaldemanGod damn.
HaldemanFollow up.
HaldemanYeah. This uh fact sheet doesn't say anything about the [unintelligible] sure we push this to cover all the stuff the Democrats find out. That's a good piece of [unintelligible]. He's one person who should raise that [unintelligible].
HaldemanDon't get into that yet.
HaldemanYeah.
HaldemanRight.
HaldemanThey just started.
HaldemanOkay, fine. And and that and that, obviously, they should push their people that way, too. But they don't have to just rely on what we can find.
HaldemanRight.
HaldemanRight.
HaldemanRight. Okay.
Haldemansays that Shelley's that we just haven't turned over, and, on the on this thing, I don't want George Bush to feel that he, as the he's the national chairman. He's not the next chairman. I don't think he should feel that he can select the districts. I really believe on this we focus on districts.
HaldemanI already promised him that money.
HaldemanAll right, okay.
HaldemanI just don't, uh, yeah. I, George will do, you know, No, don't drop in. Just say that. Just say that, you know, and I don't want him to tell Brock. I mean he can say, they can recommend, but just say,
Haldemanat first we just say, "Well, we have some, we have some funds they could be used for certain target districts and a few Senate target districts where we'll go all the way"
Haldemanno obstructions, but, I mean, maybe two to four in there, and four in the other, we can get down, because I, I know that this, this, this is the way, and the 70 million that we have here will bounce back into someplace else. You have 11.
NixonThe essential deal is that, kind of a natural pitch. Yeah. Pretty good. Yeah.
HaldemanHe said he'd call her today, and see if he could he'd get her to Washington as soon as he could. And he also gave me, uh, a lot of interesting background, which, uh, leads me to concur we made the right decision, on it, which is that, he said, well, first of all, she wasn't terribly concerned about the, I made the pitch about action, being, uh, chopped up and everything, and on that was the wrong place to go.
HaldemanAnd that, as far as, you know, that that would be doing, you know, tiger in the in the middle of a they'd take the heat, for everything, you know. And somebody's not going to make any glory out of this. It's going to be a tough problem, name drop, making her, and she shouldn't be put into that kind of a position. It would hurt her, and hurt us because of her, and all that. He said, well, I've been concerned, too, because she didn't, she wasn't planning to stay on for very long. She just wanted to take it for eight or 10 months because her real interest is in running for statewide office.
HaldemanIn California. She wants to get back back here. And she just wanted that as a a point, a base so that she'd get out here and make some speeches and all. So, she's just going to set up, you know, a hitchhiker operation. Where she went, speaking around at Rotary clubs. How about that surprise? And, uh, I said, "Well, if she" And he said, "She really wants to get back to California anyway, so I don't think there's a problem." I said, "Well, how about if she wants to run for public office"
Haldemanin California, she's infinitely better off coming back there as the former assistant secretary of state of the United States than she is as the director of Action.
NixonAfter sinking-
HaldemanAfter sinking. Where, and as a secretary of state job, she's over there doing uh, these public programs. She brings people in from around the country for briefing. She runs this, this, you know, it's a domestic job. It's not a foreign policy job because it's promoting the president's foreign policy. And I went into that. "And, you know, we're going to make a big announcement on China tomorrow. There's a lot of changes there. The president had in mind, how effective she could be in in uh going over to China, uh maybe later on the year, and that that would be something-"
NixonShe can go to China. And traveling around here, talking about what the president's accomplished and all that, which she is superb at. She'd be totally wasted. Some place, he said, "I understand." And then I put it pretty cold. I said, "Well, look, this has been a tough one for the president because that he's been put on in a rather extraordinary way,
Haldemanuh, on a very personal basis, which really isn't fair in something like this. And now it's up to you-" He spent an hour on her.
HaldemanYeah. I said, you know, it's damn hard to put crunch put into a crunch like this on someone who's an old personal friend and and all that. And, uh, especially when she's asking for something that isn't the best thing for her anyway. So, I said, "So, it's up to you to to try and turn this around." He said, "Well, I'm not sure how much you're going to be able to convince her of, but I'll certainly talk to her today, and I'll I'll talk to you-"
NixonI believe she's stunned.
HaldemanAnd it's very Also, he said I said, "Well, if she goes back to California,
Haldemanwhich is what she wants to do anyway. Uh she doesn't, she has no intention, what happens to Bob? He said, "Oh, it'll just happen if he come
Haldemanback this, you get his retirement time. How many, well he has just certain number of months he's got to finish out for
Haldemanhis federal retirement program, and then he's, he wants to retire anyway. So, it's supposed
NixonI think they're playing pretty much a very damn slow game. Well, that's what I now see. This this is the yeah. The thing I'd like best then, is stay on it until all [unintelligible] And of course, the other thing,
NixonI did think that all stuff about being a small temperance, we should have made [unintelligible] showed that it was because
Nixonthe fact that he was outside [unintelligible] probably thought that she would get the counselor in there and get this shot down [unintelligible] Well, let me say this to you.
NixonI don't believe that you get anywhere with Rose, and she may not know 10,000, 12,000, 15,000 about this. There are always two sides to each case, and that's that's more than I, that's what I'm afraid of. Yes. In what else? Can't help it.
HaldemanIn what else? Have doubts because, yeah, she's an old friend and they had that. Well, frankness won't cost it, though.
NixonWell, that's fine. Well you know, the trouble is, all this stuff, huh? [unintelligible] How many more problems?
NixonIn the sense, together. What they have to do, you got that hearing over,
Nixondidn't they? And the idea to delay and delay and not do it. I mean, that's a terrible thing to do. Well, the strategy is delay in starting, they,
Haldemanthe longer down the road it is, the better. But, once it starts, then it ought to be finished as quickly as possible. If, for instance, they could get a delay on the basis of holding off for the trial, that would be
Nixona deal, that they can really knock it out for a while. Well, what's going to happen there? Are they going to try this business of joining it?
HaldemanApparently so. Yeah. That's the work to do in that Strange and that
NixonConnally, Connally is anxious to say what the real problem might be. I want it to be spread carefully here, because he is not a key. Is that the way to keep the launch in line?
NixonIn that connection, did we ever find what A.A. had told that paper night?
HaldemanI don't think so. Why?
NixonWell, all right.
HaldemanAll right. The only trouble is,
Haldemanif if you don't want to tell to do anything very, you know, got, see, that's it. He's got such damned secrecy. He wants to walk in with the
NixonYou know what, it might show or Right. What
HaldemanI just don't think you need him there and if he's in a petulant mood anyway, it's good not to have it. All right. Well, just as well, also, when he is in a petulant mood, then he
NixonHow does he function? He's a separate, worked in a separate office. He got to be in, doing a
HaldemanSaying back then. And he's just to be touchy, very touchy.
NixonWell, Connally's said nothing about this?
HaldemanNo. He hadn't invited you?
HaldemanI don't know. Colson's convinced he is, but Colson sometimes likes to think what he wants to think. Sometimes he's, you know,
NixonWell, could help. You're absolutely right though, it's a press event, but I don't mind the turnaround, that
NixonI can just as well uh do that after two, and then try
Nixonand point to getting the killer can wash. Well, Friday, they're trying All right. In fact, Yeah.
HaldemanYou know that he, in a way, you can use the press conference better next week than this week anyway. We've got so much, as it turns out, this week, you had very, very bold headlines on the Powell and then
NixonYou talk to Ehrlichman? [unintelligible]
HaldemanYeah. Uh, they're working on a speech. You said you wanted to see a speech before you decided. Well, it's quite clear I really lean strongly against it, too.
HaldemanWell, I do, too. I just don't, I can turn them off on the speech if you want. See, the problem, another thing is Atlantic City is pretty close to Belleville. Well, it is, aren't they, that part of it?
HaldemanThat's no problem. Uh not from them, no. But a lot of problems, it's in Convention Hall in Atlantic City which seats 41,000 people and there'll only be about 12,000 there.
HaldemanWhich means the hall is only one third, less than one third filled. There's no way we could fill it.
NixonNo.
HaldemanUh The argument is that if the substance of the speech is good, you do it on the basis that it won't be crowd opportunity at all, it'll just be an address to them and, then whatever TV coverage we get on that.
HaldemanWe had a hell of a time in Atlantic City uh have to go back and wasn't there any, the last time we were there. That was in June, we had a hell of a time. We had a major crowd-raising effort there and turned out, best we could turn out, even in June,
Haldemanthis place was empty. Part of that is because of Frank Farley. Now, the problem, he's not a state senator anymore, but he's still county chairman, so uh uh you have to deal with that uh
Nixon[whispering] Well
HaldemanThe one thing they suggested advanced it that they do with the tissues, we should do it on a short-notice announcement not set it ahead. Just say that morning you've decided to go down and uh-huh and speak in the afternoon. Can you shot at that? You can't do that and do a lead speech.
HaldemanAnd why did you weep, why all the way up to Atlantic City to screw school administrators? It's kind of Well,
Haldemanit's possible. And, that sort of fits. Well, in that you got your human resources message and uh and uh
Haldemanyou've got to deal with budget cuts. Dick Moore thinks it's great, and says it's your best speeches were on education policy and that you messed them
NixonWell, yeah, Dick has no judgment on that, Bob. Oh, the school that high school, in in
HaldemanWell, what he what he's thinking about is is that that, So, the Christ's sakes, now the Capitol talked to them like in November, he says, "Don't jump [unintelligible] at that, right?
HaldemanWhat this is, is uh 9,000 school administrators and 8,000 teachers, businessmen, and school board members. Association is mainly superintendents of schools, some principals,
Haldemanand presidents of some small colleges and universities. They are the responsible people, they are the most supportive of any group in the field of education for our program.
NixonI don't think it's in that way, Bob. In other words, I don't think [unintelligible]
HaldemanIt would be no problem going in the morning to meeting several hours.
NixonI would not encompass that. That's that that often hurts. I would not encompass that. I guess what I must say, I I would provoke somebody else in there, like
HaldemanRight.
HaldemanThe only thing that they invited you specifically to do the closing session. It's built in on that day.
NixonSo you can say you can't, but that will be better than never doing it. I haven't bet on that. Somebody else, do it. John Connally, Connally, will do it.
HaldemanYeah.
NixonOr Weinberger.
HaldemanIf Weinberger hasn't spoken.
HaldemanHe's in the higher education field, so he probably [unintelligible].
NixonI'm just trying to think of how we can do it. I think that might answer the problem they have. And have Connally, and if he didn't, I would not pride in letting anybody in, wait and cry and endorse honest honesty.
NixonHow about the morning? What time do they open?
HaldemanI don't know, it depends on what how early their sessions go.
HaldemanA morning session, I mean if you take it at the end of the morning, they may do the afternoon.
NixonWell, the point is it's too late now anyway [unintelligible] I could lose all
HaldemanNow
NixonI expect I'm doing this Washington problem, hell, accept it.
HaldemanWant to make the comparison, I could go fit in the afternoon pressure, I think it's getting higher cost.
HaldemanOr that that part is canceled anyway.
NixonNo, on this thing with the or whatever it should be, we have an afternoon I haven't spent 10 days there [unintelligible]. And double that in 2 days. I mean the church was like 11.
HaldemanOne thing they argued, and you could have a receiving line, aren't you? No. No, we're not.
HaldemanJust going to mingle with 200 after that, to murder your brother.
HaldemanThose guys are hungry, works so hard, it had never occurred to them.
NixonI know, huh? Yeah.
NixonNo. I might go in there for a while. Send them to stand around for a while.
NixonProblem is Washington and Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and [unintelligible]
HaldemanLast year
HaldemanThey came with cannon. And actually good, the Army budget.
HaldemanThey can't flag like that, 37 miles.
NixonI think you should, huh, yeah.
HaldemanThe questions came [unintelligible]
NixonI think the shipped broad exceptions with that we could do the great [unintelligible] the press conferences.
Nixonhell [unintelligible] around with it.
HaldemanWe're on, another hole in this clutch, on VA appointment.
NixonI pissed, what the hell, a lot of stuff [unintelligible]
HaldemanYeah. Ugly, bloody battle between the Legion and the VFW. The VFW is making them their head is making them strong in their in favor of the chained dog. However, the VFW are fighting us tooth and nail on the budget cut. Now, and uh
HaldemanActually, the Legion is staying with us on the budget cuts. Now, Colson's candidate for the VFW is Rhodes, who's the deputy administrator now. Who is adequate, but I don't think he'd survive. We got a huge directorship like that.
HaldemanHe's not a VFW man, but he's a guy the VFW wants because
NixonBecause he can get rid of Johnson.
HaldemanBecause he gets rid of Johnson, yes.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanAnd, going around and around on it, where where I come down, and this is that we should give the VFW their man as administrator, but not give them, they want Gallagher.
Haldemanas VFW commander in as deputy. If you put that pairing in, then you got a real problem. It really satisfies the VFW. They've won totally then, but you got two lousy managers in charge of an organization that could really blow up if something goes wrong down [unintelligible]
NixonChuck Rhodes surely isn't a very strong man.
HaldemanNo, he's not.
HaldemanAnd neither's Gallagher.
NixonOh.
HaldemanNow, the options we have just don't work. Sampson, who we have who's from GSA, we could move over there. That wouldn't get into political benefit, he could run it. No, well, he knows government.
HaldemanStella, the Italian who we put in one place or the other is is a good manager. But, he's a Legion member, and wouldn't be received well by the VFW, although we might be able to put him in with Gallagher as his deputy. Colson says that won't satisfy the VFW either.
HaldemanBob Monagan, we thought, was a possibility, but it turns out he's not only a member of both the Legion and the VFW, he's paid his VFW dues, but he's sitting out there.
NixonThen, he ought to know what he's doing then, right?
HaldemanYeah.
HaldemanBurns strongly opposes taking a change, thinks you've got to keep Johnson here, cutting the VA down and Johnson will do what he's told to do, and fight the battle with us. The man's total loyalty and he said and is a good manager.
HaldemanThere's a big battle building now of support for Johnson. The Legion's starting out to
NixonMine is an inclination to keep Johnson. I just don't think Rhodes has got the job, frankly. Strong enough person, Johnson.
UnknownAnd in a way it's a it's a bad shot for the leadership because, uh,
Nixonand very, and they are, they are supporting us on the, on the budget, being a hawk, and hoping they support us on a lot of other—they have supported us on the war. But at least,
TimmonsYeah.
Nixonon the budget thing, now.
TimmonsSaying one of the problems, a couple of things they've complained about coming early this morning.
NixonIn order to come back to,
Timmonsthe Vietnam, before, they say, well, I don't see how the John missed that, uh, Schubert. What happened there?
UnknownThey say he was misled on that, by them.
TimmonsYeah.
UnknownOut of the VFW meeting.
TimmonsNo, OMB OMB got its wires crossed on the, on Capitol Hill staff. So that uh, on that, so we can back off of that.
NixonYeah.
TimmonsIt was one of the local spokes, spokesman on the bill.
NixonI think we compromise by keeping Johnson. If Johnson wants to stay for a few years, he can stay for a few years.
TimmonsYeah. What if he doesn't want to?
NixonPretty sure he will, cuz, uh, he wants to go back to hospital now.
TimmonsI'll say [unintelligible] that I think that, uh,
UnknownYeah, tell him,
TimmonsThey'd happen to have Roudebush [unintelligible]
NixonCan keep Johnson for,
TimmonsThey all feel that way.
NixonKeep Johnson through the congressional session. Keep Johnson through the congressional session, and uh the VFW, for sure.
TimmonsThey want Rhodes.
NixonYeah, but may maybe they'd be happier with their own guy Roudebush. I think, I mean, the thing is how did they get on their own men? We can tell them, hey,
TimmonsWell, tell them, hey, and uh that I am their candidate, if they prefer. Roudebush was their candidate. They gave her his name. Uh, but I would like to have,
Nixonafter this session, I would like to have a false, a strong demand [unintelligible] and Roudebush has a strong,
Timmonsand a VFW man.
NixonRoudebush has sell, sell through the back way. Now, who do we got that can talk to them? Hey look,
TimmonsI'll see Colson.
NixonColson's not here. Colson's the guy best, and uh I'll see you as [unintelligible]
TimmonsYeah. Well, Colson.
NixonI think that's the best thing to do. In other words, tell them look, I'm thinking, because they'd be happy to handle the, the [unintelligible] this congressional session for the for this thing. But they uh he wants the President wants the VFW man to go,
TimmonsRight.
NixonRoudebush. And uh he wants to point him that is, he uh Roudebush can handle Rhodes.
TimmonsYeah, and Rhodes and they definitely support Roudebush. They've supported him in the past.
NixonThat fair enough?
TimmonsYep.
NixonI wonder may maybe we should uh talk to them a month before Roudebush actually [unintelligible]
TimmonsWell, I almost did today. I just re-called him, but uh every time, sir, don't worry, we'll take care of it, uh, and we'll, uh, we turn around here and call him.
NixonYeah. It's like
TimmonsSmart.
NixonI think go back, wait a couple of days, go back and talk to him. Just say, look this,
TimmonsIt's sort of the Senator's thing.
NixonPublic relations thing.
TimmonsLet's talk about it.
NixonNobody Nobody can hurt you. You're creating this. It's the White House gag and the and the the uh debriefing. Getting him a briefing. He's skipping the damn briefing, and having lunch. Who the hell else?
TimmonsSee, he doesn't care about the briefing necessarily. What he wants he wants the PR, and follow-up being at that type of breakfast, which is
NixonThen, could you have a public briefing? Why not that?
TimmonsPublic, and call him.
NixonTell him to figure out
TimmonsAll that. Huh? That's that's a step, but they, no picture taken, for example.
NixonRight. No pictures. What's the public meaning? Oh, it's one of your serious congressional breakfasts that you have.
TimmonsYeah. He eats her,
NixonThese are private things that whenever you get involved and whenever we get, well,
TimmonsThat's a game you play with those leaders, yeah. Yeah, and how does he tell that like Scott, I have to go with the leadership, they're getting something special.
NixonAnd then say that, uh, the seeing that you asked that I press him into send in. He'll, also, be with us on the phone. Now, bullshit. That's difficult.
TimmonsPresident of the Senate has no legislative
NixonHe doesn't vote,
Timmonsand uh
Nixonand uh and uh Miss Pat Nixon This this thing this is a custom, and all Eisenhower followed, and I was never president
TimmonsHe is president, but he does even worse.
Nixononly in the formal meeting. I was formal meeting when Eisenhower was Just say that that's the custom, which is and
TimmonsAnd that was the point. You've done this for four years,
Nixonwe've been doing it for four years,
Timmonsand they haven't raised this before, so what's all the flap?
NixonAnd that, that, uh, whenever we had any bipartisan meetings or otherwise, he's in. You know what I mean?
TimmonsYeah.
NixonLike, whenever we have a formal review on Vietnam, you know, we, but you know, he was there. The, uh, when we beat the beat the peace talk, and so forth. But this was just private consultation.
TimmonsAlright, I'll,
NixonI think you ought to wait until you see Scott.
TimmonsI'm gonna see him, I'll see him privately, and also tell him, now, into a formalized, formalized way.

Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Watergate investigation and Senate hearings

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Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Watergate investigation and Senate hearings

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Transcript (AI-generated)

Also recorded on February 22, 1973

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