On February 22, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, White House operator, William E. Timmons, Carl B. Albert, Henry A. Kissinger, Stephen B. Bull, and John W. Dean, III met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:35 pm to 4:04 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 411-018 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
That's true.
That's 80, 75 to 80 for a week.
Well, I like to be there sometimes.
That's why.
Well, it is definitely.
You never know, though.
This time of year, you get it.
But you get it for a week or two.
It's cold.
It's always raining.
That hurt the way I did yesterday.
Yeah.
That's a good one to have that too.
Yeah, that's quite a good one, right?
Yeah, but they'll enjoy it.
They'll enjoy it.
It'll be a big thrill for other people to see that.
So it doesn't have to be a big thrill for Sammy Davis.
He'll get a camera.
So we'll get that out in a second.
I hope that they're going to have it.
Yeah.
I was thinking, but I guess it's a bad idea, that maybe you could combine Irving Berlin and Lawrence Welk.
Well, who could still have Lawrence Welk be the orchestra for the evening of Irving Berlin?
In terms of the archipelago, it's a little less brown.
Yeah, it's a little, it's just, it's a little grassy.
It's grassy for Irving, but Lawrence Welk, why don't you have somebody ask that?
In other words, we're going to get him, but you've got to have entertainers for that, you know.
You've got Ethel Merriman, the same guy, that's the one that got you.
The great Irving.
You're probably going to, you know, you have Ethel Merriman with Lawrence Welk, that guy's amazing.
So I go, well, did the orchestra for that then.
And then they had F.O.
Herman and Ray Bolger, and I said, I don't want Ray Bolger.
I said, no, no, no, no.
We just, because each has got to do a one, one stand, one number.
It's great if you can get the, some of the older New Berlin stars.
He says he's working with Sue Torok.
That is not broad enough, right?
I guess they're looking at the state to work it out, or how is that?
No, no.
Carruthers is working on it.
All right.
Introduce your thanks.
Carruthers is the best we've got now.
Good.
That's all right.
Just sort of at the back level of the top line.
Carruthers is fine.
I have read the pre-accomplice.
He knows who's the star.
We don't know.
I don't think there's going to be a...
It's a terrible thing for us.
It's a hell of an invention to be able to do.
This is the church's development.
The things that we've innovated around here will perhaps not be long remembered.
It will be long remembered, but it will be appreciated in time.
Sure.
But in time, you know, they don't do it.
They'll repress the future on its own.
You know, I don't think that's the future that I have.
Also, the church serves a problem in worship.
And there it was, we just had a few fat cats.
In other words, a lot of them were fat cats.
No, he ate 150.
And 150 of them killed me, mainly.
I think you can even do it with 200 baths of water.
That's a big 100 baths.
It's beautiful.
I mean, I mean, if you're scanning it through, that's all right.
I'm going to switch it.
Here we go.
Well, I want to go over the schedule a little bit.
No, they got a different guy.
It wasn't one of those.
They didn't get any invictories.
And this guy, it's not going to be good.
Why didn't our boys go?
They're not getting their own?
Yeah, we have.
And as of now, although we can't...
So you can even read the word, but it looks as if we got closest back.
That IRS, George Webster, who lived in California, he said, Howard Baker knows that he's from Tennessee, really.
You know?
And you really don't need to actually get a concert with him, of course, in the West.
That's what Dean was saying, that, you know, we're just going to look at it, but we really need to use a kind of little...
program with us, so that we can be a homeowner.
And that's right, who has the guts to move in.
I mean, Baker's got some guy that's an assistant U.S. attorney out in Tennessee, 30 years old, and he wants to bring him to do it.
And Timothy's talking with him.
He's been sitting there an hour talking for a moment.
Oh, that's what they may do.
Timothy, I don't like that this kid would be so totally dazzled by being brought into Washington.
Now, Howard Baker has asked me privately with you on an unannounced basis on the Watergate thing.
He wants guidance.
And Jimmits passes it along saying it's a call that you can't even make a recommendation because you shouldn't make a recommendation on it.
The point is what is heard.
I don't really think you ought to see it.
On the basis, well, at least I don't know.
Well, if he will, then he should say it.
I mean, if there's any thought that he might.
If he won't, and he's made the point that he wants an unannounced backdoor kind of meeting, that it's the first opening of him seeking some guidance from here, and the lieutenant thinks he does want guidance, and that all he would want to do is say, you don't have any...
uh, any knowledge or involvement.
Right.
So we can't give him any guidance to accept that.
He should work closely with John Dean and Wally Johnson.
Or, uh, the two guys here who can be helpful to him and will represent you and will, uh, I don't know, work outside of it and be cooperative with him and whatever.
Well, rather George, not Paul.
How bad will it be?
Apparently, Dean says that he thinks he's tied to Kennedy.
That's not directed, but he has ties to Kennedy, and it's all probably why he's there.
Dean's already launched a research project on that.
Good for Dean.
They're working on that, and they're going to try to get some public stuff out of him.
I have a question.
I wondered if, I don't think, what question would you want to get into?
Where did you want to get together with Dean and Earl and where all those things, what we're doing?
There are a couple things that need to be, that I think you need to be involved in, or at least, I'm sure you want to do it with other people.
Yeah.
So, oh, one thing I wanted to tell you, I didn't want to get into it, but for your information, to talk to each other about it, we, Henry did talk to them about the possibility of a future people coming, and you probably know what my event is, which is the Irish World Camp, I mean, you don't know, so you're sure to know.
But Henry, as I told him, they will keep watering.
So what I would ask is that all of them get it frankly up to you and Jerry.
Jerry, I would say, very personally, always sort of look over all those things.
We'll see if the house gets the right kind of shape on it.
So I just want to bat that off to you.
Okay.
Yeah.
Fine, I'll do that.
I don't know whether you want to or not.
The things that would be covered at the Baker, the questions at the Baker meeting.
The Baker meeting, I'll do.
Questions?
Okay.
Ready?
I should see a text when you're done.
That's the other question all of you seem to want.
I think you should.
See, what they have the feeling, and I think it's probably made sense, is if you work with your staff, people that are just concerned with your staff, maybe if you just get an item or something, or John or anybody else, they're involved.
Yeah.
And I can tell you that he's been through a thorough investigation.
That's it.
He doesn't think there's any problem with staff there.
They want him there.
The main problem is that I'd rather have this, because I want him to do it alone.
And the problem is that you might want to do it just before or after this thing, this afternoon, because he's coming down for it, the support he's getting.
I think that after and so forth, he'll be locked in a short period of time.
I don't want to be that close to her.
I'd say four o'clock, four o'clock, and then I'll finish her in one and a half o'clock, one o'clock.
Okay, well, the question is whether the sentence stands up for confirmation.
You know, the strategy of whether we want to do it.
But let me do it real quickly.
We don't know if Stintz wants to do it this morning.
He should do it unless he really wants to.
He heard that he did want to do it.
Well, what's the consensus?
Is there one consensus?
No?
The President will see NARC at 4 o'clock if he can look at the EOB office.
Alright, then we'll see him along.
Okay?
consensus that it's a good idea if we move it quickly and get it up there.
It's no good if it doesn't get down to Florida Air.
So, right.
My feeling, yes, I think the decision is his.
Ask him if he'd like to go.
Just like Craig, I understand.
He said, Craig, let's play as a group.
You know, I'm not afraid of that.
Okay.
Next one is Jeff McGruder.
We've got a problem.
We've got to keep him on an even keel.
But he is just totally determined.
He's done a lot of soundings and all that.
But he's got to get back in the government works somewhere in case he's completely cleared himself.
Which he did.
He did a hell of a job.
He spent a hell of a job at the Senate there.
that Dean is very concerned about keeping him on balance during the period leading up to it.
And what he wants is to have the staff job at the Bicentennial.
What we've come up with as an idea is to make him a consultant to the Bicentennial project on an interim basis while it's being torn apart and reconstructed, which we can do so that he's not on the White House staff,
It's a fairly natural transition from the Bicentennial Commission to the present Commission.
We have time to do it.
Now they retain him as a consultant.
And just be working there, which is by his time, through the, we've got one problem, is keeping him on tap during the time, through the hearings.
He's got a, there is a hell of a problem.
The guy...
But over the docket, you can't very well go out and get a job at this point, which is just one of the many ways we can avoid it.
We want to stay on the public side on a step-by-step basis.
But we haven't realized it yet.
It's not a white-out step-by-step.
I don't think it's a white-out step-by-step.
I agree.
I don't think it's a white-out step-by-step.
I can't do it.
A bicentennial is a government position.
And the other problem was to take the real bull and put him up for confirmation, too, on a job that required confirmation.
He'd come.
He'd do well in it.
But the problem is, after he's done well, then confirmed to get the job, he could still get some at the hearings.
Sloan, he is still vulnerable, in a sense, because of Sloan.
If Sloan blows something...
Uh, he could, he could hang Magruder.
I'd be hanging Magruder in the whole House of Cards next time I went down.
So, if it was Magruder, he'd hang Magruder.
Well, he might.
I don't think he would, but it's only known in the process.
But it's wrong.
Oh, I'm wrong.
I think so.
I think so.
Yeah.
I'm not sure what it's supposed to look like.
Uh, but he doesn't know it for sure, apparently.
Apparently.
That's huge.
And he can't, in a way, he can't hang him.
They can only aim the booter circumstantially, apparently.
That's why I think the bison tending is the way out, and it's what he wants, so it's also a way to keep him happy.
I am happy in this frame of mind because it's important at this point.
Right.
Then the other thing that, by the way, another thing that was raised is the question I raised with you earlier, if you can in this, is your approach, if you know, if you didn't like, and all that,
Lawson is not the right guy for that because he is a witness and a potential, you know, he's involved, but then he's not, but he's huge.
The argument on using Buchanan is that, first of all, he's not publicly perceived as being particularly close to the president, and that goes back a long time.
And the basic question really is whether the White House is going to sit quietly and take the unwarranted abuse that comes out of the hearings of the press or not.
And we can't run a secret PR effort, so why not do it openly and do it respectfully?
I don't know if Buchanan calls the press to task and makes certain that whatever partisanship is there, is brought out, eliminates some of the insincerity we get on the functions of his folks.
It's a real risk, isn't it?
Like that.
There's something.
It seems to me it's better to let the spokesmanship come from, inactive though it may be, whatever it is, maintain that the 1701 thing, let that bear the parts in order to publish it, I'm concerned.
I'm sorry?
I just don't believe, I believe it hasn't been done.
And I don't think that would be that close.
Then the other question, which is, he feels fairly serious about this, is getting the AP back on the reservation.
And the problem is, the client needs to do this about his time for a job.
Yeah, getting ready to go out.
But he has total loyalty to you if he's asked to take an action concerning the fallout of the hearings and the hearings he will lose.
Otherwise, he will lose.
This is known as self-interest.
And the view is that he should be asked to stay in office one full year, in other words, until the hearings are passed.
He should leave before that, because the hearings may well result in a request for additional action by the Justice Department, and there should be a new AG in there.
End of question.
He can get Henry Peterson to handle the sensitive problems.
Peterson has total loyalty and kindness and has done a superb job in those roles and so on.
And needless, we can't afford bitterness in the Justice Department.
We can't risk a new attorney general trying to get grappled with some of the problems.
And Dick's got to be told, we agreed to keep him on a while.
He's got to remain on a stay on a while longer.
And he's got to have a copy of his documents.
I think that's what they're trying to do, but I think they might control it.
Those were the things that John...
I don't think you're right.
Should I talk to the client?
Probably because you get the same factor there that you do with Baker.
They'll find these when you're exploiting them.
If I get into it, or John, what does that mean?
What could that mean?
He's your counsel.
He's here to work on it.
Well, I wonder if the economy might be able to stay, though.
That's right.
I guess you could do that.
Well, that's right, Tom.
I think he ought to go to Chicago, but I think he ought to go, you know, where you're, you know, where the folks like him kind of want him.
I want him leaving in the middle of the Watergate area.
And he ought to, he ought to specifically mention Watergate.
We need him.
Right.
We need him.
He's a guy concerned by the Watergate area plan.
I have a quote.
But no confidence in the way the press and the Senate are going to handle it.
That's the problem.
Not on the Senate.
In reality, it's on the Senate.
We need his active concern.
All right.
You can't have that.
I don't mind your running that.
that we did that a different way.
Pat can do this, especially with their telephones.
He can sit and watch it on television, and be a strategist in the back row.
There's not anybody knowing.
But then have Ben Shumway over there come out and say whatever you can and want to say.
I think he can.
I think he can.
I think he can still do it.
And he feeds it.
In other words, he should be the command post.
That's what started making him the command post in PR long before.
If they didn't have Shumway...
Well, on the way, it's more important to watch it on TV because that's the way the people see it.
It is to be in the hearing room where you see more or less than the people see.
six, seven hours a day, and I don't know what the reason for it is.
They hold it against me.
Well, of course, what it is, basically, isn't so much water use.
I called me and said, could you explain to me why I was excluded from the leadership?
And I said, Mr. President, you are not excluded from the leadership.
You are not included, because this was one of these meetings where, you know, the president meets with the group of leaders, cover a subject, you know, honor and greater.
I told them what you said.
So I said, you had asked me to come over.
In fact, I had made an appointment with them before I knew about it.
I had met with them.
So I called him this morning and he said I'd be back in five.
So I said, you wanted him to get a good degree and not just the stuff that I gave him.
He was only going to put out a request.
He had one job in the profession after the C-5.
The North Indian East
If they get away with these things, they're going to be working at the edges.
Well, what about the, uh, I mean, there's no civilian population there.
The ground that they violated was retired.
And we were out of operation.
And we were, uh, there'll be a little scream at the end.
I know it's morning, so 13 miles.
Well, they had a good day.
I think that's it.
Yeah, we don't want to go to Vietnam.
That's the one place we should go.
We can hit the other two, but if we couldn't go there, it would be fine.
Well, then we'd have to go on the other side.
So he has decided to, because he thinks that what he was putting on the show is the greatest thing in the world.
Yeah.
But he had already designed it, and he's bringing the Chinese press.
You know, he would like to do a column slamming the liberals on AIDS, but he would like to do it in a way in which he claims that this is a report from me to you, that extension, that I have, in effect, reported to you.
I'm afraid that if we get into that, we've got to make it perhaps easier for the liberals to come back.
You know what I mean?
I don't think it's good for him to write.
That can't be tied to you.
If I wanted to act as a group, I would do it myself.
Yeah, I agree.
He's going to have to call Ziegler and ask for permission.
You couldn't tell Ziegler not to give permission.
Oh, ask for permission.
to say that this was an effective report I gave to you, and we can hold it together and consent to the end of it.
But I think it's bad.
You don't think maybe we should tell him better times than we should?
I think that you've got to keep your mind open.
No, no, no.
You've got to disassociate him.
You've got to understand.
But it's bad.
I think I agree.
I think getting you into it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know what?
Actually, I think if I had thought about it, I might have had it.
But I have not had it.
There's a risk of harm.
There's a risk of harm, yeah, because he asked the questions in front of the leaders that you don't want to have raised.
Well, he might have told that because of his trip and worked in the opposite direction.
And he's become very anti-intelligence.
And he says, the harder it's going to be, the more neutral it's going to be, and so forth.
And the trouble is, the guy gets a little bit of warning all the time, and he knows how to lie.
And I used to think a little bit of that, although I didn't do it before I ever went.
See, I didn't have the experience that I had.
I was 33 years of age.
I took this long trip.
I was about 83.
Well, even in the community court, I must say, when the trouble is, he makes it great.
That's it, he makes it great.
He observes, he reports, but he does not understand.
That is, I mean, he has no sense.
But you talk to him, and you indicate that I told you a reason.
Oh, yeah, no, no, I told him you had asked me.
And I said, I just want you to know that you are a certain person.
So ask me if any time you'd like to hear about my trip, I'm sure to quote what you said.
Come on, this is good.
And it's only then that he finished his own thing.
He was going to be there when I was in his room.
So there are records of these.
I'll leave them for you.
Well, anyway, I think it was after that.
It's a small matter.
It's a small matter in the sense that he's being very small about it.
I think, for example, I came to the White House.
What I mean is, I came down.
I'd sit in Jerry Burson's office, or I'd sit in Senator Adams' office and discuss it.
I call him up there and talk to me.
He never comes over to our house.
It's unbelievable.
We made a strong link between all these orders he's left to his office.
Yeah.
And always keeps us waiting.
The woman he had told me.
I indicated it.
The woman he told me.
The woman he told me.
... ... ... ...
He doesn't really bother.
heard about it.
It's not that you came back when you were a girl.
In fact, Dulles was basically the commissioner of New Jersey.
Dulles was very nice.
He was very nice to me.
Dulles would make his report.
I'd sit there and listen to everybody else.
I didn't deal with the vice president.
I had to interact.
He was there to report to the president.
He'd work for the vice president.
Or they'd send some little staff man up to your office who'd sit down after you finally got a staff up there and read your cushion.
I guess we won't get a current day.
Don't worry about it, Tom.
And I see about the hearing thing, I think the water is extremely scarce.
And also, I think they have a problem.
All I can do is color them up there with the appeal stool.
And I have heard the hearing part of the condition is going to get really seared.
And that's where they're not going to do it.
And oddly enough, they're not doing any investigation searing there.
They can't figure out.
Because we're all doing the same thing, and that's what they're going to play with.
I mean, they're just digging a water gate.
Right.
They're not going to have a lot on that, except trying to make sure to get a hold of it.
Of course, they don't understand.
They're not going to start the hearings, apparently, in the end of April.
But it'll go on and on.
Across the river, right.
Uh, see if, uh, we are not in 10 o'clock tomorrow.
See if, uh, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if,
Oh yes, I just want to discuss our crime program.
I want to talk to you a little bit about that.
I didn't have an eye on it specifically in general.
On the things going on, Steve said, he said to Anthony,
What John would like to do is have them meet first without you.
They need to spend their time.
And then meet with you at the end of it.
If at all.
Well, actually, they don't need to.
They can have their first meeting and then meet with me again.
But I would say that's all I have.
That'll be me bringing that to a couple other meetings.
You know, what he thought is, if you were going to go up to Camp David later, it would be better for them to go on up, and he got there, and then he would do it again.
I agree with Camp David, but I don't know for another reason.
And they've got to do this program.
They're having to go a half hour, three quarters of an hour to Camp David, and then he can't do it again.
He's got to do it again.
What?
He's got to do his program again.
And Schultz has a congressional election, and they could leave at 1230.
Anyhow, they can't go until about 2.30.
They're willing to go to camp.
They agree.
And they could go on up about 2.30, 3 o'clock.
Right.
Well, and then they prefer to be with you at the end of it.
If you're going to go up, if you want to get out of these little layers for you to go up.
Then I may, but I don't want to go at that time, 2.30, 3.
Probably not.
I don't want to go at that time.
I might, I might, I might be starting to go that early.
Yes.
Let's leave that pot that open.
That pot's going out.
See, that'll get to 3.30.
They can meet at 3.30 this sense.
Or 6.30.
And then we can do it at 6.30.
I don't want to have dinner with them.
Okay.
See, that's why I, I, I, I, I had only suggested that because I thought it would be a good fit.
My own view is that that's a loser.
It really is.
I agree.
I was surprised.
Well, I suggested, you know, I would get my bag out of the way.
But they leave with you at 6 o'clock, and then they leave at 7.
They leave you at 5.30.
5.30.
And I'd be true.
But me, I was going to have a hard one.
So I was looking for a way to come up with a better example.
So I made one.
Well, it's really a bad shame.
That's sort of my permanent cross that they've been carrying for me.
Well, they're having the hearings to go through here.
But they have it here.
See, they have to report it a little later in February.
Thank you.
They don't expect him to do anything.
Dick Helms called and said you had said you wanted to see him privately prior to March 1st.
You don't need us to call me.
You don't need us to call you.
And the executive privilege meant that you were going to release tomorrow, which was to have been after your press conference.
You had indicated that John didn't want it out until after your press conference.
The question is, do you now want it held until after your press conference next week, or go ahead and release it tomorrow?
Well, I think the balance is better for you to do it after the press conference.
Because I don't want to be questioned on, well, will it cover this or that?
So I like working to release it on Wednesday.
It isn't something that I want to be badgered about.
I thought, you know, they don't tell it, you know, they don't want to be discovered.
and guidance from you, if you care, that there is a possibility, and she seems to think it's fairly good, that Bob Michael is going to make a move for that Bob Wilson job.
And Wilson steps down, rather than just letting it go to Brown.
If that happens, Michael will be able to beat Brown on the fight.
And Brown, he thinks, will stay on as the candidate for chairman and president.
Bush, we should just stay out of it and let it happen.
He says, Michael, this is... What's next?
You're going to have more on the ground, so you'll have more.
Fine.
That would be just as good, and you'd still have ground for recruitment anyway, so you don't have to work on it too.
That's right.
That's fine.
He just wanted to be sure you didn't want him to get into doing anything.
He said, we've got to...
We have, in a sense, we certainly wouldn't oppose it, but it's not our fight.
I don't know if I'll stay out of it.
He also raised the question of what to do with this leftover money.
Harlan?
From the campaign, yeah.
Well, except he started more about it in all cases that he's your political guy.
What do you want done with it?
He's just... No.
He thinks the best thing to do is just go use it on a new majority campaign for Congress and set up an all-out congressional effort for the majority of congressional districts and try to put something like that together rather than giving it to the states.
I've only made one suggestion.
We spent, we spent, we spent perhaps about 48 million dollars, a million dollars spent, 25 million for staff.
on a campaign that we set that's a back the Nixon administration campaign and it's not to be it's not to be distributed among the Senate campaign committee and Scott today was talking about
Some of the men that weren't going to run next time thought maybe if I could talk to some of them, they'd run.
I've got to stay the hell out of that too, right?
I want Brock to get into that business.
But the point is, I think we better get to Georgia on that.
Sure though, it doesn't go to staff.
It doesn't go to field men.
You know, and all that sort of thing.
Georgia's all about the field men.
But I would just let them raise that for other purposes.
I think this money, so far, really ought to go directly into
Don't make commitments.
I've already had a few hundred thousand candidates.
Then they go to managers again.
See what I mean?
The world was certain.
I'd say we can set up an advertising campaign, a mailing campaign, and hire for the candidates.
I would say it goes for a limited number of them, and all new districts.
Let me make it clear.
No money is for companies.
Sorry, districts.
New part of districts and new part of states.
A couple of governors.
I would say, all new, no incumbents.
The incumbents must raise the rules.
That's a better thing.
No, we have to hand out that money.
Okay, that's good.
We're going to push, which you must be aware of, we're going to push to Roe, Elliott,
Jack Martian was the congressional man.
He's just superb.
Oh, you need him to get the Democrats.
Elliot thinks he ought to have the liberals.
Oh, right.
Which is absurd.
Well, we've got to get the Democrats.
I know.
Bill's got these all worked out everywhere except defense, and Elliot's got his back up, so we're going to...
I guess they...
We can't get liberals onto that.
It cannot be done.
There's no votes there.
Okay?
And we've got to hang on to our concerns, and to the degree we can't get liberals, Elliot is the guy that's got to get them.
Elliot's got to work that side of the street.
He doesn't need it.
We've got to.
And Marty, damn, he's not bad for liberals either.
I've got to call Marty.
Marty's a good man.
And we've got to do it.
We kind of go marching to the bank.
Right?
And then they'll get dragged to the bank.
Right?
We don't have a problem.
We don't have to march to the bank.
My idea is that, uh, Jim is the lead head of the meeting with Baker.
And also, we've got the... Oh, they've got your executive privilege statement here that you want to get into that with them, but I don't think you want to.
Oh, Christ, no, I don't want to talk about it.
Uh, yeah, we may get into the question with my other staff appearance.
Well, actually, I was talking to David about it.
You've got to see what... That's right.
Why doesn't this remind guidance of what we want to say?
But I'm sure we can't state at this time whether we'll provide witnesses.
That's out of the balance.
Right.
Maybe it will compromise with a sworn written interrogation, right?
General guidance is saying to get them over as quickly as possible because they really are a potential victim.
I'm sure he'd get a tough minority council who's aware of the way things operate in Washington and who can handle a guy like Sam Dash, majority council.
Oh, hey, here's the point.
Fred Thompson is not already canceled.
Oh, shit.
That kid.
I guess so.
This is the mall, isn't it?
Yeah.
Oh, that's why they thought, you know, it's too late.
So far, that's been on the line.
He doesn't want to have David called out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wally has this initial contact line that he can always go up to Dean on when he needs to.
He may feel more comfortable being with a congressional guy than with a consular.
I leave it up to him.
From our viewpoint, either one is fine.
It's whatever.
It's whatever.
Our view is better.
But he knows Wally and probably that Dean is available.
From our viewpoint, it's either one of these would be fine.
It's good for you to mention it.
Yeah, that's right.
Bill, is this Kirk Townsend, the impact in Tennessee?
Yeah.
Do you know him?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That'd be good.
Sure you can.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Very good.
That is a good name for coconut.
Okay, on the basis of money.
Okay.
Who wants to talk?
No.
I can't do it.
They already have.
They were going to hold up on this and work out a deal with the two of them as co-counsel or associate council or something like that.
So they still say they'll approach Webster's base as an associate counsel.
And Bill thinks that's all right, because Webster will automatically, even though he's only an associate counsel, override this guy despite his weight.
Although he says Baker and his people are very high on this.
He's a hell of a guy.
You never know when you get higher.
They say he is a real guy.
Well, maybe he'll be.
The one thing they don't have in here is to say that they should insist on expanding security.
I think you should.
I think you should.
John, this fact on faith doesn't say anything about the thought of making sure we push this to cover all the stuff the Democrats say.
The fact that the case has been divulged and everything.
Is there any reason why the President shouldn't raise that with the bankers?
It's okay to raise it.
They should start.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, and obviously they should push their people.
They don't have to just rely on what we have done.
I don't think you should be able to keep the selective districts.
I really believe on this.
We've got the selective districts.
I feel very strongly with that money.
Correct.
Okay.
I just don't, I, yeah, I, as a Georgia dude, you know, just say what you want.
Just say it.
I mean, I don't want it to tell Brock.
I mean, he can say, they can recommend, but just say, first, just say, look, we have some, we have some funds.
They can be used for certain target districts.
I have a few Senate target districts that are new.
Only the, no exceptions, but, you know, maybe three or four.
And then what I mean is that then we get down, because I know that this can just be pissed away.
You know, some people, even the money we have here will not be raised by somebody else.
You can have whatever you want.
Yeah, we were able to get a menstrual bench.
Yeah.
Really good.
Yeah.
He said he'd call her today.
He said he'd get a lot of good stuff.
Makes sense.
And he also gave me a lot of interesting background, which leads me to concur.
We made the right decision, which is that he said, well, first of all, she wasn't terribly concerned about this.
I made the pitch about actually being a
put Pat on the firing line and all that, but we knew a young tiger could move in on it.
We both, like, take the heat breath.
You know, some guy's not going to make any glory out of this.
It's going to be a tough, crummy job to get hurt.
And she shouldn't be put in that kind of a position.
It would hurt her.
It would hurt us because of her.
You know what I mean?
So that didn't
Concerned because she wasn't going to stay on for very long.
She just wanted to take it for eight or ten months because her real interest is in running for statewide office in California.
She wants to get back here.
And she just wanted that as a point, a base, so that she could get out here and make some speeches.
So she was just going to set up, you know, a pinch-type operation.
which he was speaking at L.A. Rotary Club on a bit surprised.
And I said, well, if she, and he said, she really wants to get back to California anyway, so I don't think there's a problem.
I said, well, don't bother.
She wants to run for public office in California.
She's infinitely better off coming back there as the former assistant secretary of state of the United States than she is as the director of action after sinking California.
And it's a Secretary of State job.
She's over there doing these public programs.
She brings people in from around the country for briefing.
She runs this, you know, it's a domestic job.
It's not a foreign policy job because it's promoting the President's forelocks.
And I went into that and, you know, we're going to make a big announcement on China tomorrow.
And there's a lot of changes there.
And the President had in mind how effective she could be in...
going over to China, maybe later on in the year, and then doing something.
She'd go to China and caroling around here and talking about what the president's accomplished and all that, but she is superb at it.
She'd be totally wasted in some place.
He said, I understand.
And then I put it pretty cold.
I said, well, Bob, this has been a tough one for the president because it's been put on in a rather extraordinary way on a very personal basis, which really isn't fair in some way or another.
And
Now it's up to you.
You've been out a lot.
I did.
I said, you know, a standard time would put into a crunch like this on someone that's an old personal friend and all that.
And especially when she's asking for something that isn't the best thing for her anymore.
So I said, it's up to you to try and turn this around.
She said she wasn't sure how much she could do, but she was sure to talk to me.
She was going to talk to her day in and her own.
She was going to talk to her day in and her own.
I said, well, if she goes back to California, which is what she wants to do anyway, if she doesn't get the actual job.
What happens to Bob?
He said, oh, he was planning to come back as soon as he got his retirement time.
He has just a certain number of months he's got to finish up.
Well, let me say this to you.
I'm not going to get into the pros, but you may bring up the kinds of television that's done now.
Yes, it was.
You can't help it.
It was.
She had doubts because, you know, she's an old friend.
Yeah.
Old friend or something.
Yeah.
What they have to do to get that hearing over.
Strategy of delay and start.
The longer down the road, the better, but once it starts, then it'll finish as quickly as possible.
If, for instance, they could get a delay on the basis of holding off for the trial, that would be a pretty good deal.
That could really knock out, you know, what's going to happen there and try this business and join in.
Apparently so, yeah.
That's the work that they're doing.
That's the trick.
On the Pelliot's name, just say, look, there is a problem.
I've analyzed this very carefully.
Carefully is not a key to the auction.
Come on.
There's got to be a key to the auction.
Come on.
In that connection, should we have learned to egg eggs into that thing tonight?
I don't think so.
What do you think?
Well, wait a minute.
No way.
All right.
Yes.
The only trouble is that you don't know what the hell to do with him.
He's very, you know, he's got a, he's got such a damn conceit, you know, he wants to walk in with you and all that sort of thing.
It's a great no, I think it's my show or, or I saw it.
I don't think he can get married if he's in a petulant mood.
I mean, he's good, not that dry.
I mean, he's better just as well.
Also, when he is in a petulant mood, he doesn't see your functions.
He's a secretary of order.
He's a secretary of officers.
I don't know.
Colson's convinced he is, but Colson sometimes likes to think what he wants to think.
And, you know, you're absolutely right, though.
I don't mind being turned down.
I do this as well, but I don't know how much, but at any point, I can do it, you know, because it's a good, pure, kind of wash, you know, but he's got a big crack in it.
I don't know if it's a crack in it or not.
In a way, you can use the press conference better next week than this weekend.
We've had so much as it turns out.
This would be our very, very goal.
that you talked to earlier.
Yeah.
They're working on a speech.
You said you wanted to see a speech before you decided.
They're really playing strongly against it.
Well, I just don't, I can turn them on on a speech.
It's just either problem or another thing.
You said it was pretty close to Philadelphia.
Close to New York.
There's a lot of problems.
It's in the convention hall.
It seats 41,000 people and will only be about 12,000 max.
The hall is only one-third less than one-third filled.
There's no way to fill it.
No.
Okay, you got it?
The argument is that if the substance of the speech is good, you do it on the basis that there won't be any crowd opportunity at all.
There will just be an address to the forum and whatever TV coverage is good at that.
We had a hell of a time in Atlantic City.
I haven't gone back, but I visited there the last time I went to the AMA.
And that was in June.
We had a hell of a time.
We made a major crowd-raising effort and heard his words turn out even in June when he replaced those people.
Part of that is because of Frank Farley, who we have a problem with.
He's not a state senator anymore, but he's still the county chairman, so we've got to deal with that.
The one thing they suggested
Well, it's a possibility.
And then you've got your human resources message.
in the middle and it's not about to get into the budget cap.
Dick Ward makes a trade that says that the very best speeches are on education products, unless you trust something.
Dick has no judgment on that.
What he's thinking about is that, that high school, and he's talking crack states now, you can't do a profit online, you can't do work online, so he says no judgment on that sort of thing.
What this is, is 9,000 school administrators and 8,000 teachers, businessmen, and school board members.
Association of famous superintendents of schools, some principals, and presidents of some small colleges and universities.
Very responsible people and the most supportive of any group in the field of education for that program.
Marching in 180.
Would there be any problem with going in the morning and meeting someone?
I would not announce it.
I think that helps you better.
I would not announce it.
I just want to say I would vote somebody else again.
But, right?
They invited you specifically to do the closing session together that day.
So you can say that you can't, but...
Nobody else is here?
John Hurley?
John Hurley.
How do you do that?
Or Wanker?
If Wanker hadn't spoken.
I'm just trying to think of how to do it.
I think that might answer the problem.
And I have a helicopter.
I would not pray for many in the way of the crowd.
I would go around all the time.
I would not sit back and watch what time it was.
I would not explain how late the session was.
Morning session, I mean, you take it to the end of the morning.
You make it through the afternoon.
You don't want to do it too late in the afternoon.
You've got to get back to being a cook, like you used to all the time.
And now, I suspect I'm doing this too much for television.
You know?
Except it's... You want to make it a comparison.
I mean, we'll pick the team that does the right thing and get it from the applause.
Thank you.
We don't have to have a line.
I have everything here anyway.
So it's definitely needed today.
So I'm going to leave it for the truck.
Who's 11?
I can figure it out.
You have a receiving line, aren't you?
No.
No, you're not.
I'm just going to think of it as 200.
And for the time, 200, you're running.
With those guys, you're running three quarters of an hour for that guy.
You don't know at all.
I know them all.
Yeah.
I know them.
I don't want to talk a lot of names, but here is a little bit of a quote.
Last year, when we were on the story, they came to campus and acted like they were, you know, made friends.
And it's like, I don't know.
We're down to another no wind crunch.
Quite a VAA point.
Well, we've got an unrelenting battle between the Legion, the DFW, and the DFW.
The DFW is making a very strong argument that they're trying to put a change on.
However, the DFW are fighting us tooth and nail on the budget.
Actually, the Legion is standing with us a little better than they are.
Of course, it's Canada.
He's not a DFW man, but he's a guy that DFW wants, because he gets rid of dust.
And going round and round on it, word for word,
I come down and it's that we should give the VFW their man as a minister, but not give them, they want Gallagher as VFW commander and as deputy.
If you put that pair together, you've got a real problem.
It really satisfies the VFW.
But you've got two lousy managers in charge of an organization that could really blow up if something goes wrong in the town.
Roach is a very strong man, at least not...
Now, the options we had just don't work.
Samson, who we have for GSA, we could move over there, but that wouldn't get any political benefit.
He could run it.
Well, he knows the government.
Stella, the Italian we put in one place together, is a good manager.
received well by the DFW, although we might be able to put him in with Gallagher instead, but that's still, Colson says that won't be satisfied with the DFW, everybody agrees.
Bob Monahan, he thought it was a possibility, but it turns out he is not only a member of both leagues in the DFW, he has to pay the DFW too, he's been sitting there all week.
And we don't know what he's going to do anyway.
You've got to keep Johnson in.
We're cutting the DA down, and Johnson will do what we tell him to and fight the battle with us.
He demands total loyalty in there.
He's a good man.
There's a big battle building now in support for Johnson.
He can't stay in that place.
You've got to keep Johnson.
My installation is to keep Johnson.
I just don't think Rose is up to the job.
Well, they say, you know, they all say this up to the point.
And in a way, it's a bad shot for the NFL.
Because they're going to be able to.
But they aren't supporting us on the budget thing at all.
They support a lot of others.
They have supported us on the law.
But it's a relationship.
Yeah.
On the budget thing, I don't know what the couple of things they're complaining about coming early from the conference.
I don't know.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Come back to Vietnam.
People were disabled.
I don't see how John missed that.
He was misled on it.
No, O.M.D.
The O.M.D.
got it.
It wasn't capital.
All right.
So we can back off of it.
Yep.
It was one of those moments that I was so inspired by.
I think he was caught alive by Keeney Johnson.
I'm pretty sure he was, because I think he wants to go back to Alaska a lot less now.
I'm going to say it was an argument, but then I think he was killed.
He was killed, but he was shot.
They want rules.
They'd be happier with their own government.
I think the thing is, I mean, you have to develop their own man.
Yeah, there's just a big involvement.
I want their candidate.
I'd like to have this session to get my hands involved, as strong as I can, as strong as I can, and rather than go to kind of sell it to them that way, we'll be good to talk to them.
I'll see you later.
I wonder if I
I think we might wait a couple of days, go back and talk to him, just say, look, there's some sort of misunderstanding.
Let's talk about it.
All right.
Oh, they're trying to hurt him.
And we're treating him as going back in the, uh, the, uh, the briefing.
Giving him a, uh, he's giving the gentleman a briefing from him directly.
Who the hell else?
See, he doesn't care about the briefing.
That's the one.
What does he want?
He wants the public involvement of being at the, at the breakfast, which is supposedly what he did.
There goes on his brief.
Why not that?
Public involvement.
Yeah.
That's a step, but there's no picture taken for sure.
Right.
No picture.
What's the public team?
No, it's one of your series of congressional breakfasts.
These are private things.
They're never public.
They're never public.
Yes, but I'm president of the Senate.
Only in the formal meeting.
I just say that that's the question.
And that was the point.
You've done this all along.
I've been meeting him for four years.
I've been meeting him for four years.
Whenever we had any body parts or meetings or otherwise, he's in.
You know what I mean?
Like when we have a formal report from Vietnam, you know, he was there.
I think I'll wait until he says it.