Conversation 423-003

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All right.

Let's get religified over the week.

Good.

Get all pumped up.

Great.

What's the advice?

What's the date first?

Well, I had the impression that this thing was drifting.

So I got all the players together.

And it was.

So I've been working on a plan to a plan I could include.

Where's Arthur?

Ken Cole is the chair of the working group.

Right.

And he's got justice in his interior.

Is the marshal a guy?

No, apparently not.

He's serious, but he's not critical.

Thank God.

But the thing is, it's getting worse and worse and worse.

What do they do?

What do they do with the president?

I have to deal with myself.

My wife is sick.

I've never felt that she's given me too much, but I think he's temporized in this kind of crap too long.

And I think that's what we thought, especially with Blacks, we especially have the bad agents, just like bad Blacks.

And I think they ought to move that.

I think it hangs the whole goddamn thing.

Put a division in it, necessarily.

They aren't as scared of that, but that's too bad.

I told her that I wanted to see, I want to find a plan

spelling out exactly what the military would do, how they would do it, what their estimate of loss of life is, time and so on.

Then the whole difficulty here on so many things is they have no PR concept in this thing.

And so the government's story is not getting across.

The reason why we would send soldiers in is not apparent to anybody, and a foundation has to be laid.

I want a step-by-step as to how we lay the foundation for the use of troops to bring the thing to an alternative conclusion.

And so they're in the process of putting this together now.

And then, of course, the foundation.

If the diet dies, that would have meant the foundation should be removed.

Well, it was a terrible damn thing.

on the way they did it to him, and that hasn't gotten out.

And nothing about his family or what kind of a fellow he is or any of those kinds of things.

So no on that.

But he was standing there next to Kent Frisell, who's our assistant attorney general, that we're moving over to be solicited to the Department of the Interior.

High-ranking guy.

And they're standing way, way off in the distance at an observation point, looking down into this village.

And a sniper picked this marshal off just four feet away from Frisell.

Just the two of them standing there.

He could very easily have picked off our assistant attorney general.

And it was just one shot.

In fact, the guy dropped before the shot was heard.

So it was a vicious damn thing.

When did this happen?

Yesterday afternoon.

Come on, let's get the cross off of there.

Well, the Indians have asked for a meeting.

And Grisel was in a meeting with him today.

Now, my sense of this, the reason that I called this group together is one of the reasons, besides it just appeared it didn't have a plan, was that we need to have, in my view, some constructive domestic point house activity going on.

Now, this is a problem, and it isn't constructive in a pure sense.

But it would be White House activity if we had a White House person involved in the settlement or the PR of this thing at this point.

For all, some of this poison could show another aspect of this thing in terms of White House.

So we've been exploring the pros and cons of that.

There are a lot of cons to it in terms of the long run.

And it's a question of whether you want to pay the long run price for the short run.

PR advantage.

That's something I'm not prepared to recommend right now.

But it is a possibility.

It would involve somebody like me or Garmin or somebody going up there to neutral ground, talking to Indians on both sides, in effect delivering an elevator at the end.

And then going out and finding every camera you can get your hands on to put across the PR foundation.

It will show White House in operation in a different setting and in a different context, just like the price thing.

The price thing is constructive in the sense that business is going on and things are happening.

Yes, you bet.

I can say so.

So that's what it's all about.

And tomorrow I'm going to work on it.

Well, I'm for action on it.

Even from the long run.

Right.

Even from the long run.

I don't believe you're temporized with this kind of crap.

So let the Zoolandians get shot, that's too goddamn bad.

Lose a couple of Americans, that's too bad too.

Of course, that's my concern.

We're looking at this coming summer.

If we fiddle around up there for seven weeks, we're just inviting the blacks or the Chicanos or somebody to occupy a hotel or a railroad station or an airline terminal or some damn thing with rifles.

and say, you know, we have these non-negotiable demands.

Yeah, that's it.

It's unanswerable.

It's interesting how Schultz has come around to the patrols.

It is, yeah.

I don't know what's behind that, but I guess he talked to all the players.

But it's the management labor groups that it had to be.

Yeah.

It's always been my concern.

I said it's the wrong thing to do in terms of

obviously, perhaps, on the merits.

But I said, on the other hand, this is a way, a price you have to pay to get more reasonable labor demands.

It's the right thing as our merits.

That's what the game's about.

And I think that's what Cholschner had to do.

And I think that must be our man's chance to come up with a brave, and I'm glad to do it.

I told him, I don't want him to.

I don't need to go into the wise and the wise and the wise and the wise and the wise and the wise

The thing is, set it up, it's okay, we're gonna plan out, the plan will be, it should be, we know we are ready.

Rather than the 90 day breach, George already had that in mind.

It should be aimed at foods, perhaps not all, but the ones that we think are good.

And as far as I'm concerned, I'm going to cover just a paragraph, just say it, and then have a statement issued that night, you see, at the same time.

My present plan is to make my final Vietnam report until Friday, Thursday, 9 o'clock.

And I'll just throw this in here.

This will make it a hard one for folks to read.

Part of it was that the Vietnam report will also

I just think there's a tendency for anger.

So we were finished.

Bullshit.

We never finished, you know.

How many times did we finish?

It starts with November.

November 2nd we were finished.

We were finished in Laos, remember?

We were finished in India, Pakistan, you know.

We were finished just before, remember, a year ago, I just talked about that, a year ago, Easter was on the 31st of March, and this week, and time will have covered what was best.

or the other was an inspector of the people.

And a year later, we get an honest finish count on our ground.

So what I mean is, I don't mean to be polyamorous with John.

No, that's what I'm getting to.

Over hypersensitive and so forth.

Yeah, I agree.

It's not quite that.

It's a little bit different.

I was texting him.

I said, Nick, we don't have a second piece around here.

Did we measure that with a short swing?

You know, you have big ups and big downs, and you just can't measure it that way.

I think we have a good year.

Very well put.

But, of course, it's a bad year, and we just want to dig for the rest of the program.

So, this week, we're asking the private students to read anonymous, particularly anonymous.

I mentioned this to Paul, and nobody else will see it, except somebody who's an advisor.

That got through.

It worked.

the following day.

That you see is sometimes we tend to realize that we don't have everything to do.

But my point is, action, we can take that.

That's being almost taken for granted right now.

Of course it is.

I mean taken for granted that we always win.

Yeah.

We did get through, I understand, for three or four days there.

Cronkite and the rest were in Laos and saying we're in trouble there.

They're not going to let the lions go unless we get rid of the military and Marine Guards.

I heard they treat someone that's hurt.

They roll out and let them hurt.

Done.

Well, we've got a detail going out.

The first one.

And the first one.

The countenance was quite good.

The fire hit this Thursday night.

Yeah.

Not this specific veto.

You could refer to the fact that this week sees the first veto in this office.

You don't need to get into the merits.

The strategy, Larry Ford's strategy, is to take a look at the count, but not to count on the 29 Democrats to show up in the vote count at all.

To make this a party issue, to enforce it among the Republicans.

And to sustain the veto strictly with Republican folks.

Any Democrats would get agreed.

Because, of course, Albert is out twisting Democratic arms all over the hill.

Right.

And they'd be able, if they're going to make it just on their vote, agreed if they did, which would be marvelous.

So then you're going to sustain them all.

Well, then they're all going to get it in the rhythm.

Get it in the rhythm.

Now, the Senate is all here.

They probably will whack us just bang like that.

But at least they're going to try.

They're not going to do it.

It's going to be a complete blast.

That's right.

But, I mean, we'll get a very fast set of turn downs.

We've got a small meeting for yesterday.

And then we'll go to the house and probably later in the house.

And I'll bring it on for a while.

It's not a great plan.

I understand.

I think that's what they need to say, look, I'm doing this because it's better.

And particularly, it comes nicely.

I didn't know that we would have this little business in Georgia of our going along Albright Street.

And I would have done this very often.

I'd go on and say, now, we've done this on this thing.

That's what we're doing to fight this battle of pure budget.

Believe me, it's national budget.

And destroy all that, and therefore,

I ask you to support those congressmen and senators that have the courage to vote and sustain that people.

Because remember, they're not voting against the president.

They're voting against higher taxes, against higher prices.

For your long range planning,

The energy message would go about 10 days after you get back from California.

And we're trying to mount the biggest kind of a splash in the lab we can.

Big briefings, leadership briefings, big job, half-day press backgrounder, slides.

I think the more of those kinds of things that are on the fronts of people's minds, the less people...

The weekend people's minds.

The charity thing must go, and the trade thing must go, and the tax thing must go.

All three of those kinds of things.

Well, we'll give this one the full-court press.

I just don't want to have the tax thing be a case of George going up there and mumbling it around.

I want to slap that one on myself and say, the tax package will have these things in it, including the minimum taxes, which will be there, right?

And Ted Kersholtz will testify about that.

I don't know about the rest.

See what I mean?

Well, in other words, let's get two whacks and two bites of that.

And there's also a bad one for you.

It's a good one.

We're talking about jobs.

The Congress goes out on the 19th.

So we'll try and get all of these billings before the Congress gets out, if possible.

See, he doesn't testify on the tax.

Don't trade in the end of the 30th.

That's right.

We can get ours out before then.

The other is there to make our news, or make it after the Congress is out.

So I want to see you guess that message.

No, no, no, no, no.

I mean, like on the tax statement, we don't send a message.

I simply make the announcement after the Congress is out of town and say, on the taxes, on the debt, on the leaders' consultant, and so forth, the tax message is going to go up on that.

Make a statement about it, see?

All right.

A brief statement.

And we make a deal for that.

And you see, if we get another bite out of it, George goes out and justifies.

The trade thing, the same.

Do things while the Congress is out.

It's a very good time for, you know, that will dominate.

Okay.

So those three areas, you know, if we lost the DAC, I don't know.

That's right, and this one, this water cave thing, is

potentially very debilitating morale.

Often we have to devote a large part of our time to keeping people busy on affirmative guidance.

Well, they think it debilitates morale because it involves people you know.

It involves them.

And frankly, they don't know.

Is that over?

Maybe it's hard to just build it.

And also for

We don't want anybody guilty, or it isn't a question.

We know that everybody in this thing did whatever they did with the best of intentions.

That's the second thing.

I told all this morning, I don't want people on the staff to divide up and say, well, it's this guy that did it, or this guy that did it, or they did it there.

That isn't it.

My idea is, if this is done, we're done.

We'll do the very best we can in our losses, and so forth.

Unless you have other views.

Did he talk to you about this big commission thing?

No.

I don't think so.

I don't think that I, even though it's moving along, that story and so forth.

I don't believe that I should go out on national television like tonight or tomorrow and go out on the Watergate Commission and then come out the next day on national television on Vietnam.

I don't like the feel of that.

I don't think you can get rid of it.

But I might be able to get the Vietnam out of the way that makes it as bright as it could.

I think that gives you the time.

You know, maybe I was the main picture of

Congress having an inquiry going on, and the grand jury having an inquiry going on, the judicial branch, right?

It seems to me gives you an opening, thinking about it after Bob's...

Step in.

Step in and say, there doesn't seem to be anybody except me in a position to resolve this.

I have talked with the Chief Justice of the United States, and I have talked with Senator Irvin,

and Senator Baker, and by, after that consultation, I proposed this three-branch order in court regarding the proposition of Urban and Baker.

Well, you don't come across the right there at the beginning.

I wonder if you can't get the three-branch.

I'm not sure if you can get the three-branch.

Well, I'm not sure you can either.

But if I suppose we couldn't, then I still think it's a good, possibly a good idea.

I mean, but we've got to have somebody other than me that can broker it.

The problem we've got at the present time, you see, is that all of us can't.

You can't.

Dean can't.

Mainly because you possibly could, but it's also the fact that I'm only about to go by us.

You're the only one that could.

I might have to do, this is why I know I have the same concerns about the Jews, but I might have to do.

Oh, hi, how are you?

Oh, just checking.

Sure, sure.

All right.

Inquisition, right?

Okay.

Right.

If I am asked a question about whether or not Dean would appear before the jury, if I'm asked that question,

How should I handle that?

That's where I need a little advice.

Make it two options.

One would be to say that to look for it directly, the other would of course be to say, well, it's just a two option decision.

Your question is what they're saying that they're going to want to charge for all of it.

I've been trying to think.

I've been trying to think that today, our best position is just to say, this was discussed yesterday, it's been all a walk in the park.

I'll start you to say we've indicated cooperation on the farm of the farm of the request or whatever it is.

This matter must proceed.

I'm not going to get up here.

I want to tell you.

The other thing you might do is say, you know, a fellow like John D has a very tough spot when somebody blows an accusation against him.

You know she got married?

No, why did she do that?

There was always a chance for it.

Oh, thank you very much.

Oh, it's Manola.

Manola's the one.

He talked her into it.

Oh, no, Manola's, he says that just over at his 19th wedding on Thursday, and he says next year he's going to desert me and I'll marry Sally, and then she goes away.

Ha, ha, ha.

That stank me to death, probably.

It did to, uh, what was it?

Oh, who?

Who's your husband?

Uh, David.

David's my husband.

He is in business here in Washington, so we'll be here all the time.

Great, great.

He's the director for .

Great.

They just took over their office.

So we didn't get married before the fourth quarter.

We had to wait until afterwards.

That's right.

All right.

Congratulations, go on.

Thank you.

I don't know whether it would add anything really from our standpoint to say this, but the point is here,

The poor guy is under disability to step out and defend himself because of his position, because he is counsel to the president.

And that, in a way, inhibits him from stepping out and defending himself.

I wonder if it isn't very difficult for John, or Ron, to get into that.

Well, but it's in the setting of, would he appear before the grand jury?

We want to just say, well, that's a matter, that this is a matter that is not before us.

You point out that he is.

He's the White House Counsel.

And therefore, his appearance before any group of groups, therefore,

is on a different basis from anybody else, which is basically what I, you know, when I flatly said Dean would not appear, but others would, you know, I did say it for mercy.

There's a number of different faces at the same time.

At the same time, Dean.

A man in any position ought to be given a chance to defend himself against groundless charges.

Mr. Dean certainly wants the opportunity to defend himself against these charges.

He would welcome the opportunity.

and uh what we have was to work out a procedure which would allow him to do so consistently his unique position being not just an actor in the president's staff but also the council the lawyer council uh not the lawyer company but the responsibility of the council for confidentiality

The Grand Jury is one of those occasions where a man in his situation can defend himself.

Yes, the Grand Jury will actually be called.

But we're not going to refuse for anybody to call for a Grand Jury.

I can't imagine coming.

No, he was called.

He was called and he will be cooperating consistent with his responsibilities as Counsel.

How do you say that?

He will cooperate.

better check back with me i know he's got certain misgivings yeah well they don't say that well um uh i think you could post the dilemma without yeah saying what you're gonna do yeah we uh maybe you just don't want to go like you better not break you they're not probably break into them

that you're going to you're going to break down into questions.

I simply I saw all of today.

That's not before us at this time.

But let me emphasize, we feel co-operative as the president has indicated, and we continue cooperating consistently with the responsibilities that everybody has on the separation.

Fair enough.

And first, and consistent with Mr. Dean's responsibilities, his other responsibilities as a council.

How about just saying it that way?

Or John?

I don't want to see a ziggler open.

A ziggler has to answer something.

The only thing that occurred to me as I read this stuff yesterday was that somehow or another we should be introducing the fact that Dean's going to get a chance to clear his name.

Eventually that's when there's going to be a

I don't think this is the day to do it.

This is the day to do it.

You can also say that the president is talking to the staff in a very unique situation.

I think we should say that.

And we're meeting here this morning.

The White House is following.

And we are agreeing with the President at the President's direction.

The President is meeting with us out here.

The White House is now

examine the situation to see what action can be taken to resolve it.

And you might be able to hang it up on the portable.

Yeah, the shocking assassination attempt.

I mean, assault or the murder assault.

Assault.

No?

Do you want to do that?

I don't think we really want to get to the president's objective.

Well, we thought it was tentative.

All right.

Let it go.

We're ready to do something.

Okay.

Let it go.

Okay.

You're going to hang on to me until we have a fight.

Just keep her on this stuff together.

Okay.

Also, say that I'm having a Japanese finance minister.

We have a landing ball at 3 o'clock.

It's going to be a nice picture.

That's always a real good one.

I'll tell you.

John at least didn't come down here.

He didn't come down here for four years.

All right.

What did Henry say?

Henry did not say anything.

They didn't stir up a fight.

They shouldn't ask you that question.

Henry Lee will.

What do I say?

Well, you have to say nothing.

Don't you have any strength?

What's the matter with you, buddy?

Ha, ha, ha.

Well, we survived it.

We'll survive a little bit.

On the FBI, we'll start moving some names to you.

I hope you'll look into that guy, the alien that I got in Western.

We'll try to get a resume and some background.

A judge of cross-street background, playing a mentor, might be a hell of a good thing.

I decided that when we move on, it must be simultaneous.

The grade comes in.

I don't want to be confirmed in a way that I, in which there's any division.

There must be unanimous support for whoever, and support for, and trust in the director of the FBI.

As a result of the urge to date, it is obvious that I am not going to get that kind of support from the Senate, even though I believe that I may be confirmed under certain circumstances.

I respectfully request that you withdraw my name.

If you withdraw his name, I'm sending money all the time.

That's a very soft vision.

I'm thinking of doing that.

I would hope next week right after June.

What would you think about doing that simultaneous with the appointment of the commission?

Oh, yes.

We read the same announcement.

Here's a fine man who's been unfortunately splattered by this thing.

It's a case study in how bystanders can get splashed with this sort of thing.

Uh, it's now to a point where he can't... You think also, John, or at least you thought of some other idea that we should get Clanky stopped too at this point?

Yeah.

Yeah, how do we do that?

Well, I'm going to see him today, and Bob's going to talk to him, and we'll get him some directions on this, and we'll get Clanky to resign.

Oh, no.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

No, I, we talked this morning about getting him out front.

I'm afraid that some guys are going to start canning him right away.

Let's see, let's see about that.

Maybe we can.

But what have you got to report?

John and I have just started .

All I have is Dean's report.

I did not talk to Mitchell because this may change what we want to do.

We had a long conversation, again today, with Paul O'Brien, who's the guy who used to talk to the press today, and says, O'Brien is very distressed with Mitchell.

The more he thinks about it, the more O'Brien comes down to Mitchell to cut this whole thing off, if he would just step forward and cut it off.

The fact of the matter is, as far as we're able to determine, Mitchell did sign off on it.

And that's where it is.

And where O'Brien did it.

Yeah.

As far as O'Brien is concerned, Mitchell did sign off.

And he believes that.

That's my opinion.

The more O'Brien thinks about it, the more it bothers him with all the examples.

To see all the people getting whacked around, at least getting whacked around, in order to keep the thing from focusing on John Mitchell, when inevitably it's going to end up doing that anyway, and all these other people are going to be so badly hurt, they're not going to be able to get out and wonder.

And that's one thing.

Now, to go back on this Magooter,

situation as O'Brien reports of having spent several hours with the computer yesterday afternoon, O'Brien and Parkinson.

Jeff believes, or professes to believe, and O'Brien is inclined to think he really does believe, that the whole Liddy plan, the whole super security operation, super intelligence operation, was put together by the White House, by all of

and others really deemed, deemed crypto when all those instructions, the whole idea of the need for a superintelligence operation.

Now there's some semblance of validity to the point that I did talk, not with Dean, but with Mitchell, about the need for intelligence activity, and so Dean recommended that it, even not for intelligence,

Yeah, but you see, this is where Bruder might come.

Go ahead.

Okay.

The Mitchell bought the idea that it was cooked up in the White House for a super intelligence operation.

And that this was all set and accomplished back in December of 71, before Liddy was hired by the committee.

And then Liddy was hired by the committee to carry it out.

And that's why he should send Liddy over to the committee.

Then there was a hiatus.

There were these meetings in Mitchell's office where Libby unveiled his plan.

And the first plan he unveiled, nobody bought.

They all laughed at him because it was so bizarre.

So he went back to the drawing board and came back with a second plan.

And the second plan didn't get bought either.

That was in the second meeting.

And everything just kind of lingered around them and started hanging by.

He was pushing to get something done.

He wanted to get moving on his plans.

And at that point, he went to Colson and said, nobody will approve any of this.

And, you know, we should be getting going on it.

And Colson then got into the act of pushing to get them to do a job with the Colson phone call.

And it would have hurt Santa Clara to at least listen to these guys.

Then the final step was, all this was rattling around in January.

The final step was that Gordon Strong called Grutter and said all of them told him to get this done.

The president wants it done.

And this would be no more arguing time.

This being the intelligence active community program.

When Grutter told Mitchell that Strong had ordered him to get it going on all of his orders on the president's orders.

And Mitchell signed off on it.

He said, okay, they say to do it, go ahead.

I just thought this bugging, the whole thing, including the bugging.

The bugging was implicit in the second plant.

He doesn't seem to be sure whether it was implicit or not.

He doesn't think that particular bug was explicit, but the process of bugging was implicit.

And as I didn't realize, nor did he, but it was also in the sandwich on the way back.

That, incidentally, is a potential source of fascinating problems in that it involved Mike Ackrey, now the Customs Commissioner, something, Joe Woods, a few other people.

Nothing happened.

At some point, according to Magruder, after this was then signed off and put underway, Magruder and Mitchell, Mitchell, called Lydia into his office and read in the riot act on the poor quality of stuff they were getting.

That's basically the scenario, the summary of what Magruder told the wife.

Dean's theory is that both Mitchell and Magruder realize that they now have their ass in the sun.

They're trying to untangle it, not necessarily working together as the other police doesn't think they are.

In the process of that, they're mixing apples and oranges for their own protection.

And that they're remembering various things in connection with others.

You don't have another finance minister, do you?

No, sir.

Oh, no.

You've got a prime minister.

Now you're moving up.

Thank you.

He says, for example, McGruder doesn't realize how little Dean told Liddy.

He thinks that Dean sent Liddy in, we need to crank this up.

Whereas Dean screaming to Liddy was that you as General Counsel over there can also take us aside actively to the political intelligence question.

Because we do need some input on demonstrators and stuff like that, that they're not doing anything about.

But he never got into any, I don't know, setting up an elaborate intelligence background.

Dean says that as a matter of fact, contrast to the computer thing, at the first meeting, where a lady plan was presented, everybody in the meeting laughed at the plan on the basis that it was just, it was so bizarre that it was absurd and it was really funny.

The second meeting, Dean came into the meeting like he was not there during most of the presentation, but when he came in, he could see that they were still on the same path of

And he says, in effect, I got Mitchell off the hook.

Because I said, I took the initiative in saying, it's an impossible proposal and we can't.

We should be discussing this in the Mary Jones office.

Mitchell agreed.

And then that's when he came over and told me that he had just had seen this wrap up on a quick fix and it was impossible.

And then we, they shouldn't be doing this and we shouldn't be involved in it.

And he wanted to drop the whole thing.

And then, as Dean said, I saw a problem there, and I thought they had turned it off, and in any event, I wanted to stay 10 miles away from it, and did.

He said the problem from then on, starting somewhere in early January, probably, was that he was never really given any guidance after that.

Mitchell was in the midst of the IT&T and all that stuff and didn't focus on it.

And Mooder was running around with other events and didn't pay much attention.

And Looney was kind of bouncing around loose there.

Well, how do you square that with the allocation of money to Looney?

While that is helpful, he was the subject of focus by

If somebody hasn't signed up on that, the breeder, possibly Mitchell, possibly Stans, certainly, or I suppose they could say the automation company, just an intelligence operations company, that's what my guess is, that's what the breeder said.

Well,

It doesn't hang together, but it could in the sense that it can't change the judge.

Well, he makes a vision.

No, he makes a vision.

That's the point.

My guess is Mitchell could just say, all right, he says he had this and that, and the other hand says, all right, go ahead.

But there was no opine of this from, it seems to be, Bertine's opinion.

That's what he thinks, which is kind of fascinating.

O'Brien says that Magruder's objective or motive at the moment is a meeting with Mitchell and May.

And that what he's told, telling the lawyers, May will be a shot across the bow to jar that meeting place.

O'Brien doesn't really believe Jim, but he's not sure.

O'Brien has shuffled it himself, as he appears always.

But he does see

And very definitely, it holds also to the theory of mixing of apples and oranges.

He's convinced that Jeb is putting together things that don't necessarily fit together, in order to help him with the conclusion.

And again, very disappointed in Mitchell.

You know, Mitchell was the guy that's cutting people down.

O'Brien made the suggestion that if he wanted to force some of this to a head, one thing he might consider is that O'Brien and Parkinson

We are getting a little shaky now.

So, are we taken by the committee?

That is by Frank Bale, who is the chairman of the committee.

Does this still exist?

They are involved in the damn thing.

The O'Brien and Parks.

Yes.

They ran this off in the beginning.

Oh, no.

Oh, that's what happened.

They're involved in the post-discovery, post-June 17th.

They were...

after the purchase.

Brian says there is one thing that you may, what you might want to consider as a possibility is to waive our, waive our approval and instruct us to report to the President all of the facts as they are known to us as to what really went on in the community with Dr. President.

I've been informed.

We don't know how far he's going to go.

The danger area for him.

He's on the money, that he was given money.

He's reported by O'Brien, who has been talking to his mother, not to be as desperate today as he was yesterday, but to still be on the brink.

He's shaking.

What's making him shaky is that he's seen McCord tossing out there and probably walking out Scott for a hero, and he doesn't like that.

He figures maybe it's my turn to walk.

And that he may decide to go with as much as is necessary to get himself into that same position, but probably would only go with as much as is necessary.

There is the meaning on his part of the desire to get people, the desire to take care of themselves.

And that he might be willing to do what he has to do to take care of himself.

But he could probably do it on a gradual basis, and he may in fact be doing it right now.

In summary, that on both computer questions, we're not really at the crunch that we were last time.

He's just concerned that he wasn't recovering last time.

We are now going to

The U.S. Attorney is going to Sirica seeking immunity for Liddy.

Liddy's lawyer will argue against immunity.

Liddy does not want it.

The judgment is that he'll probably fail if Sirica will panic.

If he doesn't talk, panic is bad.

Okay, if he gets immunity, his intention, as of now, is to refuse to talk and to be in contempt.

The contempt is civil contempt, and it only runs for the duration of the grand jury, which is a limited duration.

And as long as he's in jail anyway, it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference.

I would also bet that's what Liz would do.

I'm not certain he would also do that.

He has passed...

O'Brien to our rule list or whatever his name is, Lillie's lawyer, for Lillie to provide a private statement saying that Dean is not making an advance on the Watergate, which Lillie knows to be the case, and to his knowledge, Dean is not making an advance, and Dean would like to have that statement in his pocket, and has asked Lillie's lawyer to ask Lillie for such a statement, which he feels Lillie would want to give him.

The question raised the question whether Dean actually had no knowledge of what was going on in the intelligence area between the time of the Dean's and Mitchell's office when he said, don't do anything, and the time of the Watergate discovery.

And I put that direct question to Dean, and he said, absolutely not.

I would do it.

The reason I would totally agree with him is that I would believe Dean there.

All I would believe is that he would just say it.

He wouldn't be lying to us about that.

But I would believe him for another reason, that he

I don't know whether I know that most everybody except Bob

But I was talking to Colston.

about, maybe that was the part, exclusively about issues, you know, how are we going to do this, and that, and everything.

How do we get the, how do we get the, how do we get the Catholic school.

Yeah, the Catholic, the Catholic school.

Yeah.

Colson's fight was a drag on.

But in all those times, he had plenty of opportunities.

He was always thinking, we've got to do this thing.

But Colson, in that entire period, John, I think he would have said, there was some information, but he never said a word.

All of them in this whole period, all of them, I'm sure, Bob and you, we talked both of you about the campaign.

Never a word.

I mean, maybe that all you knew and didn't tell me, but I can't believe that Colson, well, I can't believe that Colson Well, at least nothing of that served, because as a matter of fact, I didn't even know.

I didn't know, frankly, that the Ellsberg thing, and so forth.

electronically then you know what i mean from reporting you know that i was and i guess they're deliberately just talking well i didn't know i didn't know what me and this crowd were up to until afterwards and i told you after we stopped it from happening again right in that sense

But that was in the national security.

That was in the national security.

That's right.

But the interesting thing about Colson, the corroboration that you say, is that when I got a phone call from the Secret Service saying there had been a split ring, the first guy I called was Colson.

Of course.

And his response, as I recall it, was one of Colson's crimes, and the arrest yesterday, you have to add that.

Yeah, he could have said then, oh, those jerks, I shouldn't have done it.

I knew about it.

Or he could have encouraged that he knew about it in a way that would have been meaningful to me.

But he didn't.

He was totally not the same as the rest of them.

Well, the thing is, too, I know that when they talk about the students and recruiters, all the people that were surprised was, I think, on the 17th of June.

I was in Florida with me, well, what?

Were you there?

No, I was here.

Who were you there with?

I called them.

I was there.

I called Ziegler.

In this order, I called Colson.

Called them and Ziegler.

And alerted them to this.

And I wrote a paper and I said, what?

Name?

God?

I just couldn't believe it.

So you know what I mean?

I believe in politics hard, but I'm also smart.

Well, I can't, but I can't understand that.

So, if Richard would ever approve somebody's science at all, that's one thing I can't understand.

Well, Ritter, I can understand doing things.

He's not a very bright fellow.

I mean, he's bright, but now, he doesn't think through to the end.

Jesus Christ.

But you won't know those consequences.

Yeah, but I'll tell you what could have happened very soon.

They told me it was a turning point.

He was using Cleveland.

And sometimes...

I did see Liddy probably five or six times during that period from January to June and it was always on campaign legal matters.

Well, I know Dean was there, but we always said Dean was the memory guy, taking all these studies of him, always the company of him.

I believe that.

He said at one of those meetings at one time, you know, when we started, I said to Willie, I said, how's it going?

He said, he started this there, and he was not getting approval on the intelligence operating message.

And he said, you know, Gordon, I told you that's something I know nothing about.

I don't want to know anything about what he said about that.

Okay.

Now, it was January of 1972, right?

Now, there's another doctor.

And I know he was following up that point.

And he says, as a matter of fact, the reason I called Liddy on June 19th.

I said, now wait a minute.

You called Liddy on June 19th?

He said, yes.

And the reason I did is because Pliny told me that Liddy had come to see him on the 18th at Burning Tree.

That was the day after that.

And the purpose of that was to tell Blinney he had to get his men out of jail.

And I'll ask Blinney to stop talking to me about this stuff.

At that time, Blinney told Blinney to get some vigil head ordered.

Now, you don't know if that's true.

All you know is that Blinney was using that as his means for trying to get to the... Well, you know, that's actually to be telling the truth.

Blinney could be the truth.

But Elizabeth just assumed he had constructed approval.

And Mitchell would say, well, I ordered intelligence, but I never approved this, that, or that plan.

You've got to think of the lines of defense that everybody's going to take here.

That's Mitchell's, right?

What's Holland's line of defense?

Holland's line of defense.

I never approved it.

I'm sorry.

I just don't know what that is.

The earlier thing, yes, we did have an operation.

released so far.

What would you say if you said you'd very well be wiretapping one of your ships?

Were you aware of any wiretapping?

Yes.

If you would say yes, why'd you do it?

You'd say it was ordered on a national security.

We have a very serious national security case.

Yeah.

Yes.

Hello?

Uh, Mr. Prime Minister?

what you're saying on that.

Let me go back and pick up this business about tax.

That's, I think, I've done some checking and I want you to get a feel for what I would say to this Hunt thing.

Slopped over on this.

My view is, I don't think Hunt will do that.

I don't think he will either because...

I don't think he's going to have to take the fall for a very heavy burglary.

The line of response would be this, as I see it.

Starting back in the days when I was counsel to the president, we were very concerned about national security leaks.

And we undertook, at that time, a whole series of steps to try to determine the source of leaks.

Some of this involved having a national security task duly and properly authorized and conducted.

three very serious breaches.

And after I left the office at Consul, I continued to follow the voucher request.

We had three very serious breaches.

One was the old Ted Schultz group.

One was the Pentagon Papers, and the other was the Pakistan, I mean, India House.

But there were others all through there.

And so we had an active, an ongoing $20,000 using the resources of the Bureau, the agency,

and the various departmental security arms with White House supervision.

In this particular instance, Hunt became involved because at the time of the Pentagon Papers break, we had dual concerns.

We had concern about the integrity of other documents, and we had concern about the relationship of this particular break to other security leaks that we had across the government, Rand and so forth.

And so we moved very vigorously on the whole cast of characters in the Pentagon Papers thing.

Some of our findings had never come out.

It was an effort to relate that incident to the other national security breaches that we had, and also to find out as much as we could about this.

We threw a number of people into this that we had at work on other things.

And he, in turn, lived.

I didn't know, and this is fact, and I've checked this two or three ways, I didn't know what they were doing about this operation in Los Angeles until after it occurred.

And they came to me and told me that it had been done and that it was unsuccessful, and that they were intending to maybe re-enter to try and secure papers that they were after.

I said no.

and stopped at that point.

Interestingly enough, Colson called me several times and remonstrated with me and tried persuading me that they should go back in.

And I said, no, I'm going to tell them.

So Colson and Hudson were in contact.

Obviously in contact, and I actually wonder whether Colson and Hudson were in contact later.

Well, that's an inference that arises.

Now, I have some memos from Colson and me

about the Pentagon Papers problem and things that ought to be done.

Now, it indicated to me that he was programming on this at that point in time.

Now, what he did later, I don't know.

You know, I never had the slightest information from Colson.

Why do the... Do you remember the DM business?

Yeah.

I said, let's get the facts out.

Right.

And so, Colson and I both

were involved in finding this fellow, Kenny, the CIA, and getting his story out.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's when Hunt first came in the picture, because he was a good between us and... Yeah, I see.

Oh, yeah.

I heard about that.

...brought him forward.

I heard about that.

Then we kept on hunting and doing various things.

As you know, as part of the whole thing, it was not Colson, but you that I was talking to.

That's correct.

And I had no occasion to tell you anything about Colson's involvement.

That's my point.

Young and Crow operated that whole operation from the beginning, as a matter of fact.

The other was the Tancho cities and so on.

And they carried on through.

And very frank in saying, I authorized this operation in Los Angeles.

Two ways about it.

He says, if I'm asked, he says, that's what I'll say.

And I'll resign and leave the Department of Transportation and get out of time.

He said, I thought at the time we were doing the right thing.

And so forth.

I don't think you'll have to.

I don't think Humboldt's correct, but if he did, I would put the national security tent over the pro-offering.

I sure would.

And say, look, there are a lot of things that went on in the national interest there that involved taps, that involved entry, that involved interrogation, that involved a lot of things.

And I don't propose to open that up to students.

That's just hard-line.

I think that's what you have to do there, but I wanted to get that one out.

Okay, go ahead.

Right now, on the commission idea.

Since I still think, he says he still thinks it's possible and has a good possible approach.

He's been trying to pick it apart.

More up there.

The approach, as he sees it, is that the president says, here's what's in charge about the White House and about the committee we are in charge of.

He puts it all in perspective in terms of political, you know, this kind of stuff.

It goes on.

This is all bad without any of that.

But we are now at a point where fact and fiction are becoming badly infused.

We're involved in an intense political situation where the press

the Senate committee now, and others are prejudging this case, and Coker and Weiger and other two are against it.

Various people, defendants that are guilty, melancholy guilty, are making charges.

Right.

Which should, of course, be...

The FBI is being falsely charged with the inadequacy of activity and complicity of some kind.

The Justice Department and the U.S. Attorney's Office are being...

Very clear question.

Question number one.

Now, no man is above the law.

That is the basic principle we must operate on.

But under these circumstances, there's no possibility of a fair hearing.

And every man is entitled to the protection of the law.

And the public is entitled to the facts in this matter.

But the people who are in charge and are involved are entitled to a fair hearing.

people who are involved in what they're accused of being involved.

So, I'm creating a super panel which will have the cooperation of all the investigative agencies, all the people who have been charged in this matter, have volunteered to submit their entire, their facts to this panel, be questioned by them, and be questioned by them.

They've agreed to waive their right to trial by jury.

And the panel is empowered to act to remove any money that is seized from the federal employment, to level the lines, and to impose criminal sanctions.

The defendants in the Watergate trial can also submit any information that they want.

Anyone who does not.

submit the proceedings of this committee under these conditions reside will be faced with the fact that all information developed by the committee from all other sources will be turned over to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution.

There will be no judgment until all the facts are received by the Commission and then the Commission will then public all of its findings and the reasons for all actions taken.

They will proceed in secret

They're just saying it's going to be my fault, not something to appeal to.

People are very devoid of the law.

They're only sitting there for that.

What are you going to appeal to?

How is that done legally?

I don't know.

It sounds like a little bit different than that.

It doesn't mean what I originally thought he had in mind.

He says, uh, the president of the college said I'm subject to a trajectory, and I know that's going to be the time I'm going to fix all this.

That'll be the process.

I appreciate that, but that's...

That's a little thing.

Well, I bet it does.

I bet it does.

I don't know why not.

He feels that there are a lot of advantages on this.

You make your internal ones.

It'll take them a long time to get set up, get the processes worked out, get the securities done, make the findings.

And you'll probably be past the 74, I think, which you desire.

Secondly, the president maintains the ultimate stroke on him because he always has the option on January 19th for parking anybody who leaves the park.

So the potential ultimate penalty on anybody that would get hit in this process could be about two years.

His view would be to put

I said, what do you do about Irvin?

He said, why do you call Irvin down if he's on the plane?

Can you explain why you're doing it?

Justice is not being carried out now.

There's finger pointing, a lot of problems.

And you ask him to hold this hearing in advance for a panel.

He said, well, I'll hold my herb in a vat and water it, but not another vat.

That's the third problem.

And you ask, oh, that's not bad.

Then I say, what about the herb in the servo?

He said, well, that was a pretty good idea.

The only other idea he comes up with is, he said, one thing you might want to consider.

He said, President, Colin Mitchell can throw one on you on the phone.

The president now has all the facts on this that are going to tell us.

But I, indeed, don't know the facts.

I think the initials would not go any much as with the president and the president.

That would be a way to find out what Mitchell's true perception is, what it did to his family.

That's probably the only way.

Supposedly.

What did you learn?

And Mitchell says, yep, I did.

And what do we say?

I was just going to say, and you and Roger said it that way.

for all that is, I didn't call Nathan because of that need.

That's what we should go ahead and do.

Oh, I agree.

I think that on a week.

My meeting went well.

Me?

Excuse me, John, please.

Yeah, I say, any idea of a meeting between you and Mitchell, I'll wait until Ruger Hall has a Mitchell meeting.

Oh, really?

And see what transpires there.

Maybe the idea is that Ruger says he's facing me instead of you talking to Mitchell.

What about the other way around?

See, what about me going to Mitchell and say, look, you've got to wait for this to start.

I don't want to tell the story, John.

We've got to face up to where we are.

He's got to say what he's going to say, how he's going to handle it.

My guess is Mitchell would show up.

Mitchell would say, is he present?

Well, for me, though, to get him to call me back and ask him to meet with the group,

I have had from, I have not really had a connection, but I've had from all of us.

I've had from early on.

I've had from Colson, from Black Denials.

I mean, I've asked each of you, you know, and also from me, you know.

The President, therefore, has not lied on this, and I don't think that yet has been charged.

A lot of others have been charged, but they haven't charged the President.

They've been there, trying to protect his people who are lying.

Does anybody suggest a value model that's all set up now that's all set up here now to be able to serve 500 people?

I don't think so.

I never ask for it.

I just think it can't hurt anything.

I never ask for it.

What do I ask for?

What I've got to do is I'll spend my day-to-day on this.

I have to put it back for tomorrow.

I just had to make an assurance.

They tell me that I'm going to eventually have to make some assurances

Here is what Magruder is saying.

Is that what Magruder is saying?

I will, I think I'll talk to you about what Magruder is saying, and I'll go into what he's saying about the White House.

So, I'm going to stand and say what Magruder says.

He signed off on seven.

Is that what Magruder is saying?

I was probably going to ask you that.

No.

It's a no.

If Magruder does that, let's see what it does to

Depends on how he does it.

If he does it under immunity, he doesn't do anything to it.

All right.

Except ruin it.

Ruin it.

Oh, yes.

It ruins it in a way.

He becomes a pro-hero.

He becomes a hero with the media.

Let me tell you in terms of, I know how these things work.

But Mike Wallace will get him and him go on 60 Minutes.

And the entire process, the all-American boy who was doing his, who was just doing his thing as president and as attorney general, I think, is late.

And he can do it.

So, and look at the alternative that he now sees.

It's either that or he goes to jail for perjury.

How do you want to prove it?

Well, that's the other kind of witness.

He's another witness.

It's not true.

He's online.

He's in whatever it is.

I don't know.

I don't think it's proved perfectly.

He has to be a great big man because he knows what's the sentence.

He knows he didn't prove it.

If you know that you're guilty, you have to be pretty concerned about some of the ability to prove it.

That's right.

And Lydia McCord and Sloan.

That little bit of McCord's letter about Sloan has to do with it.

It's about Sloan.

Oh, I see.

Maybe about Martin.

And it's more likely that his partner worked for him.

That's it.

Right.

Parker said he couldn't remember who he delivered the fact reports to.

I don't know if he ever talked to Mitchell about this, but the one thing about Mitchell that really worries me is that his wife is going to get on the same day and say something.

Or that she's riding with the kids.

She's riding with the kids.

The other thing that can happen is that either the grand jury or the committee will sit down.

Her?

Yeah.

She doesn't know.

Well, I'm not so sure.

You think Mitchell could have told her?

Either that or she listens on the phone.

We know she listens on the phone.

She can put two of them together and she can go in on a hearing aid and just say, well, I don't know what they were doing.

She hates that.

That's justified against her husband.

No, but she can go in.

She wouldn't want to.

She could justify against everybody else, including you.

She hates findings with a purple patch.

Well, honestly, she took her husband's job away from her.

She doesn't know what happened.

It's her husband that wanted to leave.

You can't persuade her of that.

I said, if she bad-mouths him on one side and not on the other, we can't see it.

So our security, that was part of it.

We really come down to it.

A woman is more responsible than anything else for the problem.

Without her, John wouldn't have had the story of the murder.

She's a wild card in this whole thing.

I think we can talk to him about that.

I can't talk to him.

He's still moral to me.

But I think it's worth talking to him about that.

If he really is going to try and tough this through, and he's going to put her away, then she's going to be put away.

And that's a terrible thing.

I think if he were faced with that reality, he would...

What is Mitchell's option?

Let's see what he could do.

Does Mitchell come in and say, my fault, my memory was faulty, I lied?

No, he can't say that.

He says that I may have given it, without intending to, I may have been responsible for this, and I regret it very much.

But I did not intend, I did not realize what they were up to.

They were talking about apples and oranges.

That's what I think he would say.

Do you agree?

I mean, they authorized apples and they bought them, so... Mitchell, you see, has never, never learned to grow apples.

There's been perjury.

I mean, they can talk about it, you know, and all the rest, but he's never learned to grow apples.

They won't give him any apples.

He's the big angel on it.

And he's the one the magazine zeroed in on.

They did?

They did.

Yeah.

And do Gooder mean that we can add Dean?

Well, if Gooder said he'd be happy to have Dean sit in, that might be right up to what we want people to do.

I think the stroke Bob has with him is in the confrontation to say, Ted, you know that just plain isn't some.

And

to staring down on some of this stuff.

And it's a golden opportunity to do that.

And I think you only have this one opportunity to do it.

And he told me this before.

That's all the better.

But in his present frame of mind, I'm sure he's rationalized himself into a tale that hangs together.

But he knows that you're going to righteously and indignantly deny it.

I'm sure that he's trying to lie to save his own skin.

It'll bend.

Well, then I can make it personal, point you in the other direction.

And yet, for God's sake, don't get yourself screwed up by solving one lie in a second.

That's right.

You've got a problem.

You ain't going to make it better by making it worse.

Jack, you'll be a hero for the moment.

But then you've got McGruder facing all... Let me tell you something.

Let me tell you something that I know he's going to tell you.

The words always, even if they inform good causes, are destroyed.

Cankers is a decent farmer.

Cankers told the truth, but he was an informer, obviously, because he was an informer.

He had a kiss that made it worse for him, but it didn't make a difference.

He was an informer, and he cussed, etc.

He was an informer, and also an informer.

And his kiss was destroyed because he lied.

I'm pretty sure Chambers was destroyed.

It wasn't far, but Chambers knew he was going to be destroyed.

Now, they've got to know, they've got to know this whole business of a car going down this road and so forth.

I don't know what the price of the car is.

The car is a strange bird trying to get out.

I've never had it ever eaten.

No, but let's do another one.

No.

So he persuades the Buddha that his present approach is A, not true.

I think he can probably persuade him of that.

And being not desirable is a fake.

So he then says in despair, Okay, what do I do?

There's McCord out here accusing me.

McCord has flatly accused me of perjury.

He's flatly accused Dean of complicity.

Dean is going to go

And Magruder knows there's a fact that Dean wasn't involved, so he knows Dean is clean.

He knows when Dean goes down, Dean can testify as an honest man.

But is Dean going to finger Magruder?

No, sir.

Where's the other one?

Dean will not finger Magruder, but Dean can't either.

Likewise, he can't defend him too well.

Dean won't, Dean won't, he's a victim of Magruder, but Magruder then says, okay, Dean goes down to the grand jury and clears himself.

There's no evidence.

against him except McCord's statement which won't roll out.

And it isn't true.

Now, I go down to the grand jury because obviously they're calling me back on it.

And I've got to defend myself against McCord's statement.

Which I know is true.

Now I have a little cover problem with you now.

And you're saying to me, don't think of a new lie to cover up the old lie.

What would you recommend that I do to you?

I stayed with the old line.

I hope I can come out, or clean myself up, and go to jail.

What do you advise old line?

What would you advise?

I'd advise him to go down and clean it up.

Say I lied?

Say I lied.

I would advise him to seek an enemy and do it.

If he can get an enemy.

Absolutely.

And I love what he's saying.

I thought I was helping.

It's obvious that there's no profit in this route.

I did it on my own accord.

Nobody asked me to do it.

I just did it because I thought it was the best thing to do.

From everybody's standpoint, I was wrong to do it.

It's basically true.

I don't know.

But murder is people like that being ruined that way, which is really being ruined.

It's infinitely preferable to going to jail.

Going to jail for Jeff would be

A very, very, very difficult one.

Well, it really doesn't seem to be well.

You're a very unusual person.

Yep.

I think the question is whether the U.S. Attorney would grant him a deal under certain circumstances.

Well, he would if he thought he was going to get that kind of deal.

That's right.

The interesting thing is we'll be looking to watch Mitchell's face

At the time I said I'd recommend him a looter, did he move in and ask her again and get back?

Yeah.

We're long on this, uh, we're long on this commission.

Except on that, it seems to me, just sell Bill Rogers on the idea, if it's a good idea.

The problem we've got here is it's got to matter to everybody, of course.

This is his idea.

You're saying Bill would publicly be the father of this.

Bill would be the father of this.

You go to Urban and say, I'm terribly concerned about this whole business.

The president said this is what you must do.

Go to Warren.

You go to Urban and say, I see this impasse developing between Grand Jury and Bankless.

I don't have a judge in the branch.

I don't think he would.

Is there any?

I'd raise that.

But why not ask him?

Sure, that's fine.

Either that or go to Berger or go to somebody in the judicial branch and have them designate two senior judges from around the country who are retired, trial bench types.

and just designate them at random.

It takes about a year and a half to represent the city.

And not have one.

Warren is so old.

He scares me to death.

I think you'd have to ask if you did yet.

Warren, this week, you're the majority leader.

No.

They've already done that.

I think you're off the hook.

I mean, you invited Irvin and Baker.

You invited Irvin and Baker, and if they decline, then

That's the whole story of the Congress.

They just have the two senior judges.

Why don't they have a panel of senior judges?

Rather than try to get, you talk about the former Attorney General and so forth.

You've got a Grand State Guard, you want to have three cross-sounding judges?

You see, you have to ask the Chief Justice if he would designate a panel of three senior judges.

A fire clerk is a chairman.

A fire clerk is a chairman, yeah.

A fire clerk is a Democrat.

A fire clerk is a general.

And then you put a panel of three.

I think it would make a lot of sense.

Now they have no staff.

How do we finance them?

The clerk's in touch with lawyers all over.

He's got an office over here and a table building and food.

They can hire a lawyer or whatever else.

They're on the talks with the people.

Now, what that does is to attempt to one-up Irvin and the grand jury.

We've got a third investigative jury.

It seems to me that if it's just senior judges, you miss the genius of the thing.

And it's got to be executive, legislative, and judicial.

I'm speaking for our ambassador.

Why executive?

Executive is what's on trial.

Well, executive in the sense that you have citizens, you know, the public is represented.

The whole question of integrity.

I think so.

You've got Congress.

Thank you.

I don't think it sells, though.

That's the problem.

Then all you're doing is dragging a red herring across the trail.

You have to have some kind of rational... Well, I don't know.

Bill has some ideas on food.

Maybe he'll do it.

And then it has a reason for being, and then it has a reason for pre-empting.

What about making Clark a chairman?

Both executive and legislative, that judicial side.

And then have two senior judges, plus Irvin and Baker.

Oh, there we go.

I think in principle, though,

A line around this whole subject is terribly important at this point, rather than just completing it every day and hours of time.

So, I'm sending John Dean to the military.

No, I understand that.

I understand that.

My point is, John, I don't think that you could have said you've got to get out tonight, for example.

It isn't going to be done tonight or tomorrow.

You just can't get it done.

I don't think you want to anyway.

I think you want to end the war with three fat prices first and then do this.

We should do it Friday.

Friday's the time to do it.

I think we've got to get Bill in the day.

All right.

Who was promised to, uh, who was promised to, uh, should, uh, should John Earl and you talk to Bill Rogers, or is that a waste of time?

As of now, John should not, because Bill is very concerned about not talking to you about it.

I already have, and I think I tried.

Fine, all right.

You'll get John A.

You'll get, you'll get Bill to come over and say he wants to talk to Bert, and I want to talk to him.

Fair enough.

So he comes over to see me.

The second fight is called Mitchell.

Maybe you better make these calls now so I don't have to hold my stick.

I'm going to be seeing clients on this other subject.

All right.

What do we want to find?

Do you want me to approach this thought with him in a hypothetical way?

How do we run the Bureau?

I don't know what mind you suppose or believe about this damn case.

All right.

I want to say to John, John Mitchell.

I said, have you ever talked to him?

He has never discussed about that, Mitchell.

I wonder.

Thank God, yeah, he talked to Weicker.

Now, Weicker's out today with another statement of what he said today.

It was to the White House staff.

And he's not going to name names until he has his evidence in hand, but some will turn up any day.

But what might be the... We'll raise that with him again.

He's the last white in the public.

Yeah.

You ought to say that.

I asked for his information.

I told him he didn't have any.

Now he's back out in the press again.

I don't understand that.

Well, who is, who is Weicker?

Who is he?

Is he coming?

I have no idea.

I don't know.

It can't be.

Maybe he's just, maybe his recruiter talked away.

I don't know.

I just guess it.

No, I don't think the recruiter's talking to anybody else.

Where is Weicker going?

To McGraw.

He's talking to everybody he can, including Mary McGraw.

And here at McCord, McCord in the present time, only fingers, his present finger is pointed only at two people, Dean and the group.

Right.

So far.

And of all people, McCord would be in a position, I would think, to have known Mitchell.

He spent all that time with Mitchell in the market.

Well, I do think that Mikey's got to take up the labor part of this.

Right.

Because this is Weikert right away.

Again, he's out again today.

Uh, uh, and, uh, Weikert comes in with Greg.

Yes, he comes in with Greg.

Uh-huh.

It might come to Greg in the long run.

Weicker has very much to do with Greg.

Weicker is Greg's sponsor.

Weicker has been missed in the White House, and what has sunk Greg?

Weicker has issued a very vicious statement about how this doesn't reach to the president, but it sure gets to those sons of bitches around him, and I think he almost uses the word sons of bitches.

It's as close to it as he can get.

Weicker says there's terrible people around him.

He will miss.

He's talking about Colson.

His wife is talking about Colson.

Yeah, I think he is.

John, does Gray have a problem with Colson?

I don't think he has.

If there is anybody, the president wants to know.

And why the hell is he telling his papers instead of talking about it?

And ask him, as the director of the FBI, to ask Wagner what it is.

As the director of the FBI, don't get all the information canned out.

There's anybody to protect you.

The president wants the information.

I want to put it.

Let's try to get the wiper through gray.

You might try that.

I haven't tried that.

I'd like you to try that very soon.

Like on the phone.

You go try that on the wiper.

What are you going to see?

I don't know.

They were set up when I came.

All right.

You're going to set up a meeting.

You're going to be calling right now.

Okay.

Uh, you know, John, let me ask, I go by one other thing here that, uh, I haven't seen in so long, too.

I think you have a different view here.

You don't do a lot of fighting out there, do you?

You must be very patient, so to speak, about what you're saying here.

There's nothing to go over.

I mean, of course, of course, you've got to change the grade and all that.

Mind you, I don't know what to do.

I don't, I think you've got to ride with that a while.

I don't think, in this case, you're going to turn around like that.

He was going to go anyway at a certain time, so he could go.

Beyond that, it wasn't quite necessary for the White House to act.

They called in and said what they would have to do.

They were not being proactive.

That's the kind of suspense we're in.

That's the kind of tension we're in.

How can we do that through Roy?

What would happen in the event of a relationship?

I think they'd have to then

What I'm getting at here, and maybe that isn't the way to do it, I don't know,

insulate you to make you appear to be ahead of the power curve on it and also to have some symbolic act of absolution after the thing is over by being able to take the guy back on and say all right we've been through the whole thing they fired the worst they had this didn't make the case i'm taking this guy back and reinstating him with full status

So that was the reason.

I can see the practical problem keeping things going, but you've got an awful lot of guys around here who are going to never all go.

That is the problem.

The problem is not the fact that we can't run the shop.

We can run the shop as well.

It might be.

What's the other hand?

But it's what the city might be doing.

It lets you, especially if you're self-righteous, hold on.

Yeah.

It does hold on.

It will.

That's okay, you can't do it today.

Can you come down first thing in the morning?

Tonight?

Yeah, yeah.

okay uh cd and also the other phone get back out a couple months again yeah what's your feeling on that

And not necessarily.

To set up the commission and let them report out their findings with the idea that criminal prosecution will vomit.

And to move with a four-star grand jury, clearly what it is.

The other thing that related to coming down is he told you that Jeff wants to meet with you and me.

Oh, he is?

Okay.

The last I heard was he wanted to get a go at the two of us.

And that was the next thing we were going to take a stab at down here.

If he's there, he won't have covered that ground for us.

That's a weak reading.

Okay.

Yes.

You guys can do it.

There's been specific follow-up on specific items.

But he does, if you call him and say, call somebody and say this, he calls somebody and says exactly that and calls back and says, oh, I didn't get the answer and that's it for that.

There's no initiative and there's no step beyond the basics.

He says we aren't getting any.

I think I should talk to Blankey.

Good, okay.

Okay.

On name of committee and name of grand jury.

What we do have the office call with .

Okay, right.

Thank you.

Yes, sir.

Okay.

We're just with it right now.

Don't wait.

What I had is, I'd like to get a report to this conversation.

Call it back on that.

Secretary of State, please.

Yes, please.

What are you doing?

What's your time?

We ought to get together to give us a headline.

What's the earliest meeting time for you?

Is that right?

Is it?

Okay.

When did you make a deal to get in a fight with the president?

And it doesn't.

When was that?

I don't know.

Okay.

So, Greg's gonna, Greg's gonna do this.

He's gonna check with Weicker.

And then, I left it with him.

through me, if it were appropriate, or if not, to use the right.

So that, uh, we're here one way or the other.

He's going to go over here.

He's going to see what I'm doing.

He's going to go over here.

What the hell makes what you're doing?

I don't know.

He was just establishing that he was kind of supposed to fight against the... kind of the...

So, and that's because he's speaking in a gentle way.

Oh, really?

Not like that.

That is why he's got a microphone, too.

Because he couldn't find that whenever he started to market on it.

I think it's a microphone.

This is a...

I don't know.

I don't know what he means.

No, sir.

I know, I know, I know, I know.

I just meant, though, I'm just thinking of having a long, you know, potential tomorrow that's going to be very difficult.

Well, I'm thinking about how I can do that.

At least let's not have to schedule anything Thursday.

I mean, one day takes a little preparation.

Is there anybody working on that?

Boy, I'm not going to reason with you.

You're going to just go on and on and on.

Absolutely.

Do you want me to do anything about some of these substitute points?

Are we putting anything down for you?

Well, the things we discussed earlier, either that or on the METO or the, uh, uh, what was the price thing?

What wage and price thing?

I had told, uh, well, I mentioned earlier, just to go like this, and, uh, you know, I told Steve.

I'm going to show this.

I want to get that Friday shot so we can put George off for Friday.

You want to talk about trade?

I heard all the rest.

That will be Friday.

I need a paragraph.

I ordered today.

If you can get George what I can say, get that for me now.

In addition to that, as I said in the statement,

As far as the buggies have been done, I'm not going to get into the chapter first.

It's been six or seven years.

.

The way I work, I could do this today, and I'm done with it.

And tomorrow I'm free for a couple of days.

It takes you to get particularly a speech that you're not going to read.

It takes a great deal of concentration.

You've got to build up to it.

I told you, you've got to really build up to it.

It's a lot.

Dr.

Rob Markman signed it.

I've noticed he's still spying.

He was a good friend of mine.

He goes in every morning for his treatment and then he has the rest of the day free.

Anybody else would do the same thing over and over again.

All of his time.

Roger is going to have to do it.

He's going to have to do it.

I guess, should I or should John hit him?

John could do it.

That's what Mitchell, Mitchell was asking.

Mitchell in a hurry, he starts to complain he isn't stepping up to his job as the contact of the committee and getting faker programs and all that.

A, and B, that the investigation seems to have been turned off by the grand jury.

He is not getting any information, so could I hope that he said it was the grand jury.

And Mitchell, like I said, is absolutely incompetent.

So no one says it's going to be a true possibility.

What's the right here, John?

Put it on the basis that you're not asking for this.

Like the White House is asking for this.

John Mitchell says you've got to have this information.

That's very true.

And you're looking at it.

Put it right on that basis now.

So everybody, you know, can't say the White House is ready to tell about this or that.

They're not ready to tell.

I don't know what he should have been.

He should have been pretty much seen if they were here in my office.

The question was about how much you want to tell him about everything.

I think you've gladly got to save him.

Let me tell you, he was not involved.

He had no prior knowledge.

You've got to say, too, a very serious question here about Mitchell, right?

You see, McGruder is playing to the game

The game is interesting here.

McCruder is throwing off on McCruder.

Why did he pick Dean?

I don't know.

Why did he pick Dean?

Except that Dean was in the defense, I guess.

I don't know.

All right.

Now, what is McCruder doing?

McCruder is shocking today.

his playoff against the one.

He wouldn't playoff against all of them.

You can talk about, he didn't get drawn.

Nobody gives a shit about the draw.

They carry a club out of one home.

They keep moving back and back.

And Grutter was made by all of them.

He knows, and also he knows it's not true.

I can't figure it out.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Thornton

And it's led by committee counsel.

See, all the stuff about... Danny?

Yeah.

All the stuff about Dean comes in the L.A. Times story.

Yeah.

It doesn't come in a court letter.

Yeah.

Dean is the logical target of the committee.

Well, how do you analyze Magruder?

Uh, tossing it off to you rather than to me?

I think my view is that what Maguder was doing here was firing a threat rather than an intent to save.

I don't think he intends to use that so much as he intended.

He's trying to get people shook up.

He isn't asking to save me.

He's trying to get the line around you for protection.

People are jealous.

In other words, if all Magruder is going to do is take the dive itself, then we aren't going to care about it.

If he makes us worry, then he's going to get rid of you and me.

John, do you see any way, though, any way that Magruder can stick to his story?

Oh, yes, because he's a genius.

He sticks to his story.

He's a genius witness.

I think, I hope,

If he is really as good as he is, as they say he is, it's possible he could get away with it.

So that's his word against the court.

And he's pulling with the stream, you see.

He's saying the things they want him to say.

No, I don't mean that he says that.

I'm to the point now where I don't think this thing's going to hold together.

And my hunch is that anybody who tries to stick with a story that is not susceptible to corroboration is going to be in serious difficulty.

Well, that's why I said I thought he ought to move to an immune confession of perjury if he can do it.

There's too many cross-currents in this thing now.

Yeah.

This is my view, but that's very conservative of you.

I've got to jump on the shirt and check it out.

The recruiter's got to say nothing.

What the hell is that for him?

Immunity.

Well, if he gets immunity, yeah.

Good God, can't we have, can't the U.S., not without the influence, who grants the immunity?

The judge, did Sirica grant the immunity?

He had a grand jury proceed.

Everyone grants it in congressional proceedings.

The Attorney General granted it anyway.

The Attorney General granted it in congressional.

Oh, no.

No.

No, but what he does there is informally work out with the Congress the tendency of the Department of Action.

I see.

In the kitchen over here.

Oh, yes.

Very good.

Yes, sir.

Thank you.

Well, John, I have no second thoughts about the fact, though, that we had to take on this thing out of the way after the resolution.

We had to take on this whole issue of what you mean on what you're having to do that.

And also, we had to do it because it's right.

And you've got credit around the country for it being right.

It's very interesting.

We'll get more when I finish up this speech.

It's really seeping through as they're talking about it.

Anyway, we're going to fight that battle, you know.

We're going to fight the bureaucrats.

One thing to look out for here is the Congress rather facilely saying, oh yeah, we agree.

We should have spent more of a certain number of dollars.

The priorities.

But we'll just arrange the priorities within that.

Because they don't have any machinery for arranging the priorities within that.

And until they cover them.

Their priority basically is to cut defense.

I'm going to have to get that.

That's right.

I hit that right in the butt, right in the puss.

But see, if you box them in to a spending ceiling, which they agree to now, and then you say defense is not available, then you bless them with a whole basket full of unpalatable choices, which we leave on now.

And they'll growl and snarl and bitch and so forth.

So they've got to come easy.

What are you going to do with this plank?

He's barred me as soon as he gets something on Gray, the biker.

He's barred me as soon as he's got something on the plank he's carrying.

I'd have a real woodshed with him.

I guess eventually we're just going to get this biker, you know, and he'll just jump up and down and shout, what the hell?

But she just said, let's level.

I said, I'm on a level with you.

We've got a bad rap here, and we're not going to allow it.

Now, the real problem is, what about this?

We're going to get out of it.

And he got that well.

Of course we ought to know.

We can't take any downfall in the silver, or is that too dangerous?

But he doesn't have to do that.

Henry Peterson follows that thing on a daily basis.

And we can let Dick know, and that's all we're doing.

All right, just go there.

The problem is there is that he's going to bring the grand jury to the White House.

It's a tender point, I think, what he has to do.

No, you can say this.

Why does he need this?

No, that's weird.

Our interest here is to see whether the White House can move on.

That's right.

We'll move on.

That's right.

The president wants to know.

That's why he's got the purpose.

We're not here to protect him.

Well, what the hell are you saying?

That's the only basis on which to intervene.

That's today.

Yeah.

We have to do it every day.

So that we can move one step ahead here.

I mean, honestly, we want to move.

We're not going to wait until a grand jury that drags us up there.

Okay.

I'll let you know as soon as that's done.

I wonder if we are in a position to move all the way up to the joint.

That's, in effect, what you would do if you sent everybody down to the grand jury.

I see.

I think the judge does not have any... You don't think sending them to the grand jury is a viable option?

I mean, I'm just thinking, I know telling them these commissions are so difficult and so... Well, think about these terms.

And you came out Friday and said, okay, I want to get this thing cleared up.

And so I'm going to send every man and jack of this White House staff down to their grand jury.

Sure, sure.

Anybody that knows anything about it, directly or indirectly.

And I'm calling on the judge.

I've talked to the judge.

He assured me that it would be done very expeditiously.

What I was thinking to see as an alternative, the judge is not coming out as a white man here.

The judge is an incidental individual.

We can say, in a sense, that the judge has been here for a long time.

He's been sitting here for five years or so.

I don't know.

I don't think you can hold that against the judge.

I mean, I do in a way, but you know.

He's a proprietor of a courtroom and he trusted that he conducted the trial.

The fight is.

Why don't I, there's another one way to go.

I just probably rather than try to set up another procedure is to call the judge here.

And say, judge, carry out this investigation.

I'm sending them all down here.

And the question, I want everybody here, and I want people to get involved in this.

That's another way to do it.

That's okay, as long as you then get out front.

No, I say to the country, I've now had this conversation with a judge.

The thing that I get, and that's what I mean, that's what I would say.

The thing I get over and over and over again from just ordinary folks is,

Why doesn't the president so-and-so-and-so-and-so say it?

Why doesn't he say it?

So symbolically, you've got to do something.

Do something so that I am out in front.

That's it.

They don't think the president's involved, but they don't think he's doing anything.

That's it.

No matter how often we say we will cooperate, that's what we're doing.

I don't believe that at all.

It's not getting through.

Zippler is not sufficiently credible on this, in a sense.

Because what about the judges?

Let's look at it that way.

Well, then what you've done is you've said, I'll send John Dean, I'll send all, I'll send everybody to the grand jury.

No immunity.

Just send them down there to testify.

Let it all, let it all come out.

I'm talking in the grand jury.

It's up to you.

In the grand jury, people are really competitive.

You're not in the grand jury.

That's right.

Oh, I mean, I don't grant self-courtesy to say I'm waiving executive curses.

I think you do, yeah.

I think you do.

I also disagree with that.

No, I can say consistently.

I can say exactly.

When you say executive curses, you start with us to be as forthcoming as we can.

Yeah, all the facts that have to do with any of this thing.

There's no privilege to be claimed unless it is absolutely necessary or something like that.

Is that a follow-up question?

The minute that you said that.

I beg to say, on all matters that relate to this particular matter, yes.

That's what I would say about the privilege of voting.

I think you've got to say that, Bob.

You could say this.

You could say, I have never had a communication

with anybody on my staff, about this burglary, therefore, or about, prior to the, prior to the, I never had any, I had, since I had no communication with anybody on the White House staff about this burglary, or about circumstance leading up to the tragedy, there is no occasion for taking a copy of this matter in regard to this, I might get to the bottom of it.

questions like did you ever discuss with the president a matter of executive clemency or any of these

Call them and say no.

Why don't we get, why don't you get this argument so that I can hear it clearly and I will follow it.

What is it, Bob, and I should recall it at the moment.

I'll let you go there.

Don't give anything away.

You don't have to.

You don't know what the hell is going to happen.

You're going to want to ask.

Well, his thing is don't do any blanket waivers, clearly, because you get into points where you may want to.

Well, don't do a blanket waiver.

Why don't we just say never, never.

with regard to this, I didn't get a 19 problem, so it's not lawyer's line, but lawyer's line with me, or with other members of the staff, other members of the staff, that's a problem.

I said that's a matter that has to be decided.

John, consider it for a moment, though, the play does not go to a... Or I just say the place that this should be,

You see, the argument should be made, and I know the judge is tough and all that sort of thing.

The argument should be made.

There's an honest judge trying to get at the facts.

The argument can also be made at the park when the criminal charges are involved.

The parking place for those to be considered is an honor lane, not the kangaroo court in this conference where it drags on and on and on on television, but in a, before a grand jury, and in the back street, and on the court, and on the court aisle.

Irvin's answer to that will be, the President is trying to fight this battle on his battleground.

It's obvious he wants his FBI, his Justice Department, his prosecutor, but not his judge.

You see, the one strong point which Rogers has raised, in this connection with Bob, is that the judge is out of business because it's the big white night now.

Okay, he's as clean as a house.

He's as clean as anybody you can find.

You ask the judge or direct the judge or request the judge.

You can't direct the judge.

Request the judge and highly recommend to the judge that he appoint a special prosecutor.

Let me say it for the president.

The same thing is going to happen before the commission.

They'll have a special prosecutor.

You'll want to make a name for yourself.

Everybody wants to make a name for themselves.

The prosecutor will drag on and on.

The idea that a commissioner might go through the 74 elections and so forth.

My view is, I can't, I just think that you're funny, John.

I should have brought you in.

I think they're going to stand in.

And it's going to come out anyway.

I think you better cut the losses down.

You better get over it.

much and frankly sharper than perhaps just they are, I would judge.

Let's go.

Well, come on around, come on.

You're not going to get into this room here, not necessarily.

Because, you know, the voter can state with his own position if he wants to.

Oh, I understand.

We're not telling anybody what to say or what they're doing.

What I meant is, what I meant is, John, if you call the judge, I'll say, well, Judge, you're in.

I recommend that.

And I strongly commend the special prosecutor.

You don't have confidence in the personal prosecutor.

But you can take anybody you want.

I've got a rule.

I'm going to serve up hard people.

I think that's something that Jeff's planning to do better.

You should talk to Rogers about this.

The judge, in other words, the idea that the president gets the judge and says, now you're an honest judge.

You're doing your job.

You've got nothing to hide here.

I don't think the judge appoints him, I think the Attorney General appoints him.

Well, I will, we can say if you want us to question the prosecutor, the Attorney General will appoint one.

In my instance, he's a good friend of Sir Rupert's or whatever he is.

So, I'm looking at that.

We'll appoint a special prosecutor to question if you want.

Well, and the rule will be acceptable to you?

You can give him a legal right or something, so that you get it out of the

I feel that that's kind of a person to be made to do that like tomorrow.

But would you want to go on television tomorrow?

No, but the way I would do the television, I'm not planning to do this before at 9 o'clock when Brian comes out.

I would do this in the morning.

It'll make it all.

That's enough right there.

I can say I've done this.

I want this at the bottom of this.

Boy, that'll ricochet around for that day.

Okay, gentlemen.

All right.

You got no nose?

No nose.

No, no, no.

No nose.

The diabolical question.

Yeah.

Should I tell Henry that we're consulting with Rogers in this area, or should I not?

Not telling him that.

If I don't tell him, Henry will suffer the agonies of the day.

No, no, yes.

Why you are meeting with Rogers?

No, no, yes.

Just say yes.

I better tell him we're meeting because it's all wrong.

Yes.

Thank you.