Conversation 427-001

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Thank you, sir.

You know what?

What?

It's already set.

We're taking time to talk to you about it.

It's already set.

The worst thing you can do is be alarmed by any one thing, because the economy just goes along with it.

The first place it reports, you can get an argument.

Secondly, the people will get more excited about the report than the fact that they're justified.

You've got to be careful.

The reason the recruiter names don't get a name is because I wouldn't want you to go out with a statement and have the recruiter

Just before the period, he said, you know, you don't do well.

He had one because I didn't have the other one.

I know, but then, then you have to understand that he never got from a very small body of man in several different directions.

And it's not that I should not have been the same at all.

But rather, there should be an overall statement that says the things that my statement would say and the things that any other thing would say.

Not by law.

That's the way I'd say it.

I haven't seen anything like that.

First off, I don't know anything about the facts, but I don't know about the results and the strategies.

The worst error you can make is to accept it and say it.

Or being the first witness on the hill.

Why?

Because then you're the man out front.

You're the target man standing.

You accept the agent they've got in front of you.

And the challenge of your violence is to heal it.

.

I don't know either.

Which is another problem, because everybody has got some piece of his own medicine.

That's right.

I understand that.

I want to save them all.

But I don't want the Bruder to avoid it.

Well, for example, if that's what we've tried to do.

Well, if we could avoid it.

I mean, act like a ritual assistant, but we don't have to be testified.

Do you think we could get away with that?

No.

Sure we could.

What's the grand jury?

We won't spy at all.

But that isn't going to solve the problem.

I mean, so Mitchell- So he does.

So you do hang tight, and you pay a hell of a price.

Anything you withhold is going to cost you.

So you've got to get some gain from it.

Okay, the gain from withholding, Dean, is that you won't say things Mitchell doesn't want said.

Mitchell, I agree.

I agree.

I'm not concerned about what Mitchell Mitchell can say to his ass.

I agree.

I think Mitchell's a lot more worried about him doing the job.

I don't think Mitchell feels he can save his ass.

I think if Mitchell felt he could, he wouldn't worry about it.

Mitchell, I still think, has this naive belief that if you just hunker, if you hold tight, it's all gonna go away.

They're gonna look at it, and so that's sort of a lawyer's view of the thing.

That if they can't fail you,

and convince you that everything's going to be all right, I don't think that's okay.

It may be all right for John, but I don't think it will be for me.

He lives in Mitchell, has made the decision, and listed LaRutter in it, that if they get enough blood, they will drop it.

They will drop it.

And they see it like the Sherman Adams.

And once they nail Sherman Adams, and he had to quit,

Then they all smiled and said, no, that takes care of that.

They didn't worry about any other aspects.

I don't even know that that's true or that there were other aspects.

I don't remember the case.

I think there were.

You're right.

When you call somebody and tell them to do something, they go, what the hell?

If I call someone and tell them to do something, you can't hang a person for doing it.

You can't hang me for making a call.

We had a gold finder.

Yeah, a gold finder.

A gold finder.

I think they did it.

And his point is, his closest theory is that Mitchell's plan, I just, I don't find this stuff.

Chuck says he's got this inside line in the Mitchell's locker that he's giving to Mitchell's drinking, which he always has been, so that's fine.

All right.

In any event, that he's included that if they could sink me, that's the biggest chunk of blood they could get.

If they can add cocinon for a little bit.

And then say, well, that water gate won't go away.

And I think that's pure bullshit.

I think if they send me a post, they'll then figure out what water we get.

They'll get the taste of wood and go all out.

But it's because they can't do it.

They can't.

What they're looking for is a way to wrap, to bring the circle around.

And that won't bring it around.

But I think it's

He followed the Colson period and there's some logic to it that Mahmood or Pannix goes to Mitchell instead of Jesus and they're sent to be.

What do you want to say?

What do you do?

John says, Jeff, you and I got to hang together.

Who's there?

He asks the Colson to be satisfied and not take care of him.

And Jeff, in desperation, believes this.

Goes to jail because he wants to live with this thing.

He goes out and battles for the Christ.

Jeff has got to be told, for example, to do it.

I think you can turn Jeff around even now.

I thought we ought to try.

Yeah, but let's pick the reason.

Larry's the one.

I already said some talk with Mahmooder.

He totally denies the Folsom story.

He said he was talking to Nolan and putting a hedge on him.

I really think that this conversation is reliable.

We also know that Folsom's capable of screwing things up.

Yeah.

John Crosby was violating the law.

Especially if you can isolate.

If you get older now.

Sure.

Do you want to talk about it later on?

He said, I completely believe it.

He said, I mean, listen, the technique will do.

He said, there's just all this shit floating around town.

He said, if I call you every time I get a report,

I've given up.

I know they've got me.

I know there's no hope.

The only question is whether I talk or not.

And the problem is I know I'm going to jail.

It's a question of trying along.

And he said, hey, Larry's got it.

He said, if I talk, there's going to be no, but there's still no problem for the White House.

There is no way that the White House and anybody there is indicated at all.

And all of them has no copy to this.

I mean, I went through, sorry, I can't call the letter, so we got that down.

So we got that in with his voice, which is helpful when you change the story sometimes.

But he knows he's guilty.

And he knows that they've got 75 lawyers out investigating him.

You know what I think?

Some of this may be put off.

I think Colson's being taken in by this fucking Jews.

The other side, they're just being taken in by the other side.

I think they're planning to die.

I think they're doing exactly what I've raised with Chuck.

The point is that everybody is lying down together here.

And they said, look, if you were on the other side, wouldn't your tactic be to try to divide them apart and knock one guy off and then kill him?

That's giving us a chance to try and knock the others.

You've got a domino thing here.

I think we're at a point where I just don't think we have much less than most actually true.

You don't want to hear the tape.

And he says, the virtual audience won't understand, you know, keep getting reports.

And Jeff said, Larry?

If I called you every time I get a report from somewhere that the White House is not going to send me, and all I do is never stop writing.

So this is the ship that this town is full of.

They're playing games against games.

This is going around and around.

And then Larry said, it's quite sad.

He said, would you listen to me?

I said, would you believe it?

He said, yes, I do.

He said, then you will believe it.

Jeff says, I know that I've had it.

No one's going to jail.

The only question is for how long.

And the other question is whether I talk or whether I don't.

And even if I get caught, there is no problem as far as the White House is concerned.

I don't have to meet anybody in the White House.

I can't.

According to Larry's summary, I can't.

The rule is it's a bottle call.

The other thing I was trying to say though, what I told Bob, this is that Tulsa may be taken in by the Malino types and so forth.

They're smart enough to plant all sorts of germs and got in trouble with the

I'm convinced Colson was dissenting because I said, I understand you have a tape.

He said, well, I can't.

He didn't say no.

I said, I didn't listen to him.

He said, well, I don't actually have a tape.

I have a transcript.

And I talked about the problems with the transcript not being included for that.

And I said, well, why don't you bring the transcript over and let's look at that.

He said, well, I don't actually have it in my possession, but there is a transcript.

I said, well, why don't you get it?

He said, well, I'm not sure if I can.

But I'll try.

In other words, he backed off into dreams.

And that's what Chuck does.

He tells him part of her story, but the facts are so large.

I just had a very brilliant conversation with Dean.

The scenario was like this.

Now let me ask you this.

I don't think Dean lost.

He came in and told me, you know, I said, don't worry about it, Dean.

This is when I first got the idea that we couldn't have a report.

I mean, sure, so let's be sure of this.

There's no lying around here.

He said to me, he said, the problem is that what he knows about what happened before, about the meeting.

And he didn't.

And then he went on to say what he said about the meeting afterwards, about the meeting afterwards, and also about what he had done, about the debates and all that sort of thing.

But he said, John and I,

A lot of pressure on him.

A lot of pressure.

It's all of it, too.

He said he felt the pressure of the bird from all of the spaces.

Don has been up to talk to Don.

It's been the last week or so.

He felt that he had to, this is his mentor, he had to sit down with him and talk about the problems that he was facing.

Reliant on his career, and his family, and in fact on his wife, and in fact on all of those people around here.

I saw this thing happen.

We all left here almost after the 4th year.

We came to Cole.

Now, if I can interrupt there, one thing that concerns me is whether Colson actually is going to hunt as well as he did.

It may have been pressing him for this time.

Maybe not the water game.

But he was not prepared to say, all right, good.

Anyway, he goes on.

And he said, as a matter of fact, John said, I think Chuck is being honest when he says he didn't know what they had in mind.

But Chuck was so frustrated because he had had the same kind of trouble with other things that he picked up the phone and he called you and he said, damn you.

That's Colson's explanation of Colson's phone call.

At which point, we were in Colson's office, and what really was in the booter's office, was when Dean called.

But, um, Colson, excuse me, you're saying, Dean called me?

Dean called you?

I don't know.

Colson called you, and said, do you know of any reason why?

Now, wait a minute.

I'll pick up.

We're just getting things up to speed here a little bit.

Anyway, let me get what Dean says, and then we can grab and pick it up.

Colson then called Sonny, and he's making me ask the booter.

We made sure there was no reason why the Brewer shouldn't go ahead in whatever this was.

My impression is he said he told you to say, we're not getting any results on the information we want because the Brewer said it.

And you said to Colson, we'll blast him off of it.

You meaning what thing?

Colson meaning what?

maybe the same or something slightly different.

By the way, that Colson then blasted Magruder, and not just once, but several times on a follow-up basis.

That Magruder then stimulated what ahead would be and laid out plans and took a written memorandum of commission in which he said, this operation is now set.

The following targets have been

Please select the ones you want us to go.

And Mitchell checked the ones that he wanted to go.

Dean knows this.

He then said, Dean is saying this to all of Mitchell.

I think Mitchell told me this.

Dean is saying all this to Mitchell.

Mitchell said, well, John, you've done it exactly right, except that I thought it was going to be done.

Two or three hands were moved.

Then he said,

Well, they caught the board, which is somebody who said, no, I knew I shouldn't have gotten our people into this.

They're going to get my ass into this because I wasn't supposed to get our people.

Now, he says that his sources to me, U.S. Attorney's Office, are infinitely better than the client's.

And that both Peterson and the client's are being forced by the U.S. Attorney's Office as far as what they're actually doing.

What they are actually doing will lead to an indictment of Ruder and Mitchell.

I don't think they need to pass.

The principal said that the bugging out makes a difference.

Plus Mitchell, Marty, and Rude in the aftermath.

We do not want the attorney.

We do not want anybody in the White House.

And they're very explicit about that.

They're not trying to make anybody in the White House.

That's the line they're giving me.

I understand that.

He says that it is criminal practice in this district that the U.S. attorney will abide both if you are an attorney and if you are not, if you're represented by counsel in this court.

And he says, that's practice that you can pretty clearly rely on.

He said, I don't have anything to do with that.

They don't have to advise my counsel that I'm not a target.

And he said, you have to rely on something in this life.

And he said, that's pretty good, stable, reliable practice for you.

So he said, I feel as comfortable with what my position can be in certain things.

He said, more than that, they have said, influence.

Why would they ignore the fact that the room got money from the White House?

I don't see why they don't bring the White House in.

I'm trying to pick deans.

All right, he says this.

He says, you have to understand, these two guys still work in life.

He said, believe it or not, they really care about the presidency and about the institution.

He did that.

Yep.

He's known them for a long time.

And he said, there are a couple of professionals who are working along.

They realize that they've got a terribly dangerous mind in their hands.

And they have to carry it carefully.

And he says, I am morally convinced.

And he said, this is corroborated by my counsel's protection.

And these guys are going to do everything they can to indict Yoli parties without having it splashed on the president.

He said, I've been hearing his name done from the day they started on this case.

That's what he said.

He could cite you case after case before they could be gone.

That's the letter this time.

And it deliberately stayed away from the fact that .

Let me just spin out a scenario.

says by the end of this month, they will know everything they need since they tell me they've got to do it.

Very rarely.

We will probably deliver the indictments to the judge.

But it's not her that would be under arrest.

And obviously now it becomes very important to delay it because of what he then said.

He said, no, particularly John mentioned, that nobody can get a fair trial.

What do you think will happen?

Either the U.S. attorney will go see Sandra and request it to suspend, or it will suspend, or he will then go to surrender.

Ask for an injunction to bar any potential witness from attending your hearing.

Oh, we want you to be.

That's right.

Yeah, you can ask me.

And it gives you a leg up.

Well, we just, you know, I say under the circumstances we've been advised by the U.S. Attorney

Not on the rights of the defendant, but what it means.

Frankly, they're not going to get a fair trial, but they're going to get a mistrial.

I said, John, you get a little with me on the exposure to the White House in the Blue Room party after that.

And I met him, too.

He said, well, I can put a good face on this.

I was a messenger back and forth.

What would happen is that Marty and Aru would conceive a plan.

Mitchell would wait until the last possible minute to do it.

And then he would tell me what he would do, rather than to carry out a plan, would be to follow me and say, we've got to do something.

He said, in virtually every case except one,

I totally know what they need to do.

Or else I would talk to Bob or I would talk to John and report back to them what they need to do.

But one exception to that was where we turned Tom off.

And there the only thing we did was to tell Herb to see if he could help.

And I said Herb is probably alright too.

Because all Herb did was go out and get some money and send it back to him.

He didn't even know what it was for.

He said, I think we're all here.

Apparently, from a couple of guys, he doesn't want to dispose of the money.

What brand of money?

This is money that was not supposed to be.

Not as a kid, by the way, in the campaign.

But it depends on what he said it was for.

If he said to them, this is money for the president's campaign, that's one thing.

I don't think he said that.

What else?

They can give you money for whatever purpose you intend on it.

To give.

Give money for the defense of the Watergate Center.

Right.

But hell, they're not raising money to defend Barrigan or Ellsberg.

Why can't they defend the Watergate Center?

That's what I think.

Yes, sir.

That's what he...

I thought he probably was told, and that's what he should have said.

Yeah.

You've got to be perfectly candid on that.

The curve is well represented, sir.

There's a fine lawyer from Phoenix that I know.

He's going to be, yeah, first grade.

Now, the uncertainty about it, in the early 70s, in the early 70s, he had a burden on him.

He had a burden on him.

How did he do that?

The bottom of this scenario, he said,

Oh, you mean the money that was used for 270?

Oh, right.

Oh, but I just wondered.

Oh, he raised all the money.

That money was... That was free money.

Slow?

Slow, slow.

There's no problem on that.

Yeah, that's right.

The next step, he says, is... Well, several times would happen.

He said, if there was one...

So that may happen.

Will the order be called?

Yes.

The other thing that is

It's really subjective, but it's the best estimate is that Mitchell never would have done it.

Right.

We're getting by.

You know, never would have done it.

You can't put a crowd on the Cousin Market.

So you can't be standing there with your gun all day and thinking, this is the shit I still like.

What's the point of it?

I assume Mitchell will get to the plate at a good date, but what's the matter with him?

The point is that Sneed then makes the prosecutorial decisions that have to be made.

The law school and all that go to court.

The other thing is that Sneed has great expectations.

That's one thing.

But the second thing

Dean said the last thing he would ever do in this case is get a special prosecutor.

He has to make a new record.

Silver must be glad to control the prosecution.

Well, I agree.

And I, for example, that's what Rogers is pressing for the special prosecutor.

He doesn't know the facts.

And Kleine is, for what reason?

I get it so well.

I think Kleine is just watching it out.

And he doesn't have any confidence in Steve.

I don't think Kleine is all concerned.

Well, that signals that my means knows what's coming.

Right.

Well, my feeling is that it ought to be done as soon as you know what's coming.

That is, when the U.S. attorney comes over and says, I have secret indictments, I'm about to deliver them, what the hell do we do?

And claim that there must be no means played.

He should come in and say, because of these guys, I can't do it.

He's not saying, well, this is the time you're supposed to leave.

He says, John Mitchell is the worst person I ever had.

And I think he knows her.

And so on.

And then he feels a lot of repentance.

A lot.

What do you think about what we did between now and then as to what you can say at that time?

I think we, I tried to just analyze the last couple of years.

I'm supposing John Mitchell will say what kind of statement we should have.

Depends on the nature of the charges and the facts and all that.

So what do you say?

But he never came to any conclusion.

That's the reason I was getting.

But it seems to me that we've got to think about what attitude to take then, now, so that we know the steps to take to keep on course from here to there.

He's invited.

Now that it's just a sacrament, I'm satisfied.

I just don't know what is about the fact that he could be convicted.

So you obviously can't say you're satisfied he's guilty, but I'm not sure that you can prove it.

If our friend from Ruger goes in and testifies, he doesn't want to go and say anything.

Well, if he said it when he said to Larry, or if he was called as a witness, and said, did John Mitchell ever tell you what happened?

And he said, yes, I had this meeting with him in his office, and he said he had this in the home, and he checked all these targets.

The government told me, yes, sir, in New York, yes, sir, after the fact, after, within the last 10 days, I know it didn't mean anything because of the president.

Well, he might not be taking privilege.

He might say, I was on an investigation for the president.

Now, that brings us to another question.

I said, John, it's dawning on me that Len can't serve as special counsel because he's Mrs. Burke.

And he said, yes, I feel strongly wanted to.

And I said, you can't.

He said, well, obviously I can't.

I haven't been since my name first began.

He said, the president does need some fresh face.

Maybe I didn't understand all there was to know about me.

Maybe I better look into this some more.

He's no longer in the White House.

The president has put him aside, but you're trying to leave them ahead.

And he said, well, that's about the same thing in the city of Washington.

He said, substantially, what that means is the president's decided that I'm a liability because of something he knows about me.

And he said, I think that's a net negative in terms of the grand jury, and particularly this US attorney, because they're not fair game.

I said, I'm not really as concerned about that in terms of the U.S.

It is theory about the U.S. turning on it.

That's where I am now.

I said this.

I don't even think it's a good risk.

It's marginal, basically, how much is gained from getting it out and granted.

That was my view.

Yeah, where you got to this?

I thought you lost more than you gained by getting rid of him.

Yeah.

Well, for both of those reasons, but predominantly the last one, because I think really he is our best mode of understanding what's going on in the country.

I'm convinced of that in the rights and the times.

What's going on?

Who does he think has told him all this?

Willie?

Yep.

You really think Willie has told you all this?

Yep.

And he thinks so, yes, he thinks.

And he thinks.

Well, he wasn't part of that.

He said he'd watch.

My prediction is that Libby will testify.

Why?

Because he sees the whole event coming down.

No, he's not silencing anyone.

He isn't serving any useful purpose.

He's living on the testifier and the fact that they were given money to keep quiet.

That I don't know.

Now, basically, what you said this morning is very interesting to me.

They can get out of that one.

I mean, speaking of parties in the room, you know.

Captain, I'm a client of his distinction.

Yes, yes.

And he agrees.

What's that?

There's a difference between giving a guy money or a free deal.

John feels that all the incentives are willing to take all this punishment.

is being eliminated by the fact that wherever he testified before the grand jury, he'd go back before the judge and say, oh, I'm hurting myself, I'm content.

And then he'd go back into the grand jury and he would not.

Keith White.

We haven't nailed that one yet.

The thing that I have asked time and time again is whether it be separate jury, maybe true confidence, whether to come to the White House and whether to go to Seattle.

I thought it was wrong to receive true confidence.

I know that.

That was synopsis.

That's all.

And that's what we're talking about.

I know that.

And what I'm talking about is, as a secretary, testing by all the effects.

But nobody knows.

Nobody knows.

And I can't find out.

Either Dean or my YouTube or my own sources will say something about it.

I can show.

And I think Lydia would be programed for it, too.

But except that, there's no reason to be sure that they do that.

You don't know who sent the copies?

That's right.

I see.

You think the litigated the Magruder?

Yeah.

I see.

The Magruder sent the copies.

The Magruder's secretary, though.

How about Magruder's secretary?

That's what I mean.

Somebody type those copies.

No, Sally Hartley.

Typed the copies, apparently.

She was like, oh, Liddy sent them.

Liddy's secretary.

But what Strauss said he'd done was a carbon copy of the Magruder.

No.

He kept going out and said they'd made a credit back up and out of the community.

This story was...

I can't remember.

This is what I've spoken, John.

I don't know whether it's a Mahmooder story of me or a Mahmooder story of Mitchell or Mitchell, I don't know.

He made two copies.

But we got the reports.

And we wrote them.

And two copies made.

One for the crew.

One for the White House.

And Reuter's understanding was that the White House copy went either to Strachan or to Colson.

Strachan made a copy for Colson.

And we know what a Strachan made a copy for Colson says now.

He did not send a copy for Colson.

He also says, and I'll tell you that he did not know they were watergate bugging reports.

How could you tell them?

You couldn't.

It's a confidential source to report that.

I don't know what I answered.

Well, they were, the point is, it was a dry hole, and I had to make that.

Except for the six acts, which, of course, because it looks like it was.

It was making me feel angry and lying to myself.

Yeah.

I don't even think I had to do it.

No.

I heard about this all the time.

I'm 15.

I'm half-age, and you never got to do it.

Really?

15 for me.

Let me ask you two or three questions.

Let me put that on the scene that you're on.

Sure.

I'm going to show it to her and we'll talk to her.

Oh, excellent.

Well, I thought so.

Based on what my guru said, a guru is an authority-oriented guy.

He needs to be pulled by an authority.

But, you know, where do things lie?

And then he'll react properly.

And he's a great promising young kid.

And panel here is on his way to the Washington jail where he's going to get raped by all the black men.

and it scares the shit out of him.

Hey, looking at his state of mind, the question would be whether, whether somebody needs to save the recruiter.

Don't let them track you in any of this stuff.

Nobody's telling you to get on the river.

Don't run out to the press.

Do what you feel you've got to do with the grand jury.

I'm not at all sure that some of them are not given all this, but I'd like to get to the root of it and say, on a quality basis, we're going to think about it.

You know, you're so old and pregnant already that you want to tell the truth.

You can't live with the truth.

It's really what it was.

I'm going to do that and it's going to sound like a pretty low-ranging sound.

I think it's been already named.

Yeah, but if I didn't listen to the tape, I don't think that if I didn't listen to the tape before we decided to do it.

Why don't you listen?

I don't know.

I was a young kid, I was working for the President of the United States.

I was under pressure from all over for a lot of things.

I went to the Attorney General of the United States and I said, shall I do this?

He said, yes.

So I did.

He will be able to be, must testify.

He doesn't know except what Mitchell told him later.

Yeah, the... Mitchell told me.

Oh, well, I'll tell you this.

Let me have a listen.

No, it's just kind of a situation.

If you haven't heard him say anything, have you ever had a conversation with John Mitchell in which he described to you that Johnson said that, in other words, he dared not say nothing?

Well, you can say, as I consider it being such, as I consider it being such a conversation to be privileged, therefore, we might not answer it.

We might not answer it, but we've got to say it better.

You ought to take that step so that we can cover it better.

We can say it eventually, but we're trying not to answer it now.

Now, you can cover it.

Why?

Our first inclination was to date back his withdrawal from this, to, say, March.

I would have to, I would have to refer to my office a question of whether I should respond to any question like that.

And then it was an investigation.

And then he could disable it.

Then we should make my vote, and we should invoke privilege.

I don't even have to.

That's right.

I don't necessarily want to see you do that.

That's correct.

That is a state that doesn't need it.

See, that's the point.

And I think, John, that could, I think you should waggle his eyebrows and say, listen, I was in an investigation with the president, and I talked to a lot of people about a lot of things.

I will testify as to what I did.

I think that's absolutely essential.

I think the thing ought to lay down the ground before he goes in there.

He said, look, I've asked a lot of questions.

I've done a lot of that.

I said, the president wants to hear me totally boarded up and all that.

The order is given to everybody to cooperate, but

Yeah, well, let's see what things he does.

Well, he said he had some voting on the protocol, which is very short.

Why does it take a pretty long time?

Because that's smack smack that you can get through this without having to do that.

I'm going to be sure that we don't blow the plug.

I understand.

There's another side to that.

self-deserving, because I must say, all of this is welcome.

In the back of your mind, the possibility that this is all bullshit.

Just as I've argued that what we got at the post was all bullshit.

I simply don't think you can trust anybody who's involved in this to be either active or objective.

I think everybody has proven to be strong-handed.

Predictable.

Yeah.

Oh, I'll be over there.

Yeah.

All right.

Okay.

Get yourself out of the bucket.

We will know very shortly because he's gonna have his interview with the US attorney.

It's been a long time.

The only thing that I had in my hand

was the question whether Dean Stager went.

Not the question whether Mitchell got popular or anything else.

I got an interesting preview.

You know, the end of the kind of thing.

But I know that Dean has, and I also know his thought process.

And I think you have to go a little bit on record.

I'll prove the record here.

And the record certainly goes that way out.

There's no question about hundreds out there.

So, I feel a little like a bird in that game.

You know, I just...

Well, after being with Colson and Dean and all these different people, that's the part we used to say in the air.

Yeah, that's right.

They don't take anybody's word for it.

Let me ask you this.

A very critical question.

You know, here's Colson's story, as Dr. McGruder is saying, and this story has to come from somebody now.

Colson could be making it up, or somebody else's thinks this is the story that may be coming from it.

But this story could be the fact that Dean is guilty of subordination of perjury.

Uh, maybe the other, the root of the rest of the perjury, all right.

The real point there is if Dean is guilty, whether that Dean is guilty or not, far worse.

Not that we should call the president.

He said, look, the group is guilty, and your attorney general is guilty.

What do you mean he's guilty?

I don't think he's guilty.

No, the point that I make is, the point that I make is, John, if he thought that he was guilty, it was not subordination of perjury.

If Dean did not know he was guilty, in other words, Dean's got to go in there and say, I did not know it, and I did not tell what I could tell, and I'm going to make up my mind.

That's his story.

He says he did not know.

He says, when I met Mitchell, I heard in this little room, or this other fellow's office, they said between themselves, we shouldn't say anything about these pieces, so I should bring John Dean in.

He said, I didn't say yes or no.

I said, what you told me to say is, if I tried to play it back, you told me this.

He told me, he told me that, no, he told me the best, he told me that he said what he told me to say, and I thought I'd better back him up.

He came on out and said to the other one, he didn't mean this, he couldn't be told nothing.

Good at this, mean at that, not good at that, good at that.

Good at that.

I don't believe that he, to this day, knows that he's killed me.

I don't know that he's killed me, but I sure as hell think he is.

At least, what he said that I, I believe that he said other nights, when we encountered Dick, who I heard, you know, the conversation, he has never said anything.

Thanks.

You know what I mean?

Because this puts us in the position we kept from doing our own.

He went on with McGregor.

He was the chief honcho for the inaugural.

We did that.

You see, my point is, Dean, Dean's got to be asked that specific question now.

He publicly, though, I'm not sure, does.

The position you want Dean to be in was, you didn't ask Dean to find out.

You asked Dean to determine whether or not he was right.

But on the other hand, putting somebody in the league, somebody in the league,

We can't separate it that much.

We need somebody to run the inaugural and all that.

That's the way I would see it.

That looks to me to be quite terrible.

What do you think, John?

Well, I'll tell you.

John's assignment was to make sure that none of us believed.

Yeah.

That's what he believed.

He just didn't want to find out.

He was very...

It's a terrible lot to ask questions about.

What about others before the Grand Church?

Is there any way to improve?

What do you think about the thought that they're all in compulsion and all should go forward?

Not unless they're called.

All right.

We'll get them.

Sure, I'd go if we're called.

Absolutely.

Oh, and a minute.

If Dean is right, these guys are making a steady effort not to get many more people involved than they absolutely have.

We'll put it this way.

It's not that.

It's the truth.

Huh?

What's that?

I would explain, Glaser blew up a Jeep and rightful gave it to me.

Afterwards, when I came out of the grand jury room, I said, you know, you've got some information on quite a bit of related stuff and all that.

What'd you say?

Well, I said, we're being corroborated.

Why are you talking about that?

That there might be a guy coming out now.

So I was taking a left turn with him.

He said, is it a silver Glaser?

I'm sorry.

So he said, you shouldn't be hitting me.

Very good.

Very much so.

One thing that Silverton Lantern, who of course you're keeping me on, are in the Justice Department here, too.

Well, not so much the Justice Department.

It's the U.S. Attorney's Office.

They don't give a damn.

The Justice Department.

Let me ask you this.

How the hell do you get a rope around Colson on this thing right now?

And somebody has gotten shut down.

I didn't make you bother to order a girl to tell me to do well.

Somebody got shut down and had a

I don't think there is one.

But I don't think he's going to write a piece of paper.

Oh, yeah, I know.

He's coming in with a procedure scenario, right?

When he does, I think the two of us ought to sit down.

I'd say the two of you almost got to sit down.

What does he want?

He wants the same thing that everybody else wants.

He wants a head dragged across the trail.

So we'll go after that.

But yeah, we can do it.

Now, if he realizes we aren't good at that, the accessories to that, he'll leave us alone.

But let's say that he wants red.

He wants the fire.

For example, now, why does he want to be?

Because the mean is perceived to be a mental man.

All right, so I don't know how he sees these things, but we'll get him off that text and tell him to, you know, for Christ's sakes, don't make any more hoaxes.

The main thing, the main thing.

It's not going to make any more hoaxes.

He said, you need somebody in this office, in the White House, who's in total charge of this.

I said, you've got everybody on, probably making a silly thing that Colson had done.

He said, somebody has got to get them all being the same.

They ought to be totally true, but they're not on the same line.

It doesn't include the infection of the river.

And I said, you can't control the infection of the river.

You've got the water there.

You've got the hand.

That's all.

There is a danger in that.

Because they'll act.

Yes, definitely will.

What about Colson?

They were all talking the same, you know, genius at the center of the web.

Yeah.

Uh, that'd be very tough.

Right.

Well, on Colson, you can certainly have a chat.

No question.

Don't you have to.

There's an interesting, I think, right, interesting question.

What does Colson's point about the door of the local office then?

Well, I haven't.

I haven't asked you.

I wanted to see if you could tell you that way, but let me argue it.

I'm sorry.

It's just that if they had five witnesses from the White House, and every one of them had talked to me, I'd have prepared the testimony right then.

I'm better when I talk to you then.

But Colson, all of them can talk.

Well, I think it's better not.

How about talking to you?

I think there's no reason why you can't talk to me.

I'm doing some things for you.

And you can say that you're handling the matter of executive privilege.

I guess I discussed the matter of executive privilege.

For sure.

It's a little better.

Well, who the hell is going to talk to a recruiter then?

Anybody?

Who's in his office?

Analyzer said, I was listening to the tape.

All right.

Now, there's a possibility here.

You know, you're not, there are rules of sex.

You're not supposed to disclose your testimony before a grand jury or any other witness or party.

But the court has held.

That's right.

The secret, that's right.

I did set some, but you're not even one so far.

But if I become one, you can become one.

And then at that point, all of that came out, I said.

The witness may come out of the grand jury and tell the press what he said.

So Dean has had one opportunity, if we want, to start a public disclosure thing.

Now, if that's a violent juror, the injunction is called a plot matter thing.

That's it.

Send all kinds of, all kinds of things.

Not to say a word.

Well, if he came out and told the press, I would be, I would be convinced I'm doing the same thing.

Dean is to go to the grand jury with the strictest rules and the most limited testimony he could possibly give John.

That has just got to be.

And he's not been talking to anybody as far as the VR and so forth is concerned.

The VR, if you're looking down the road, I suppose that you do have an indictment issue.

That's where they put it.

I think it'd be very hard for and Dean is originally thinking that once you have a trial, you can make the former Secretary of the United States to campaign back for the re-election campaign.

Really, all of a sudden, maybe your company won't have all that much enthusiasm to take it up.

I don't want to say it's original, but it's situational.

I think a lot of us need, let me say, the Landry era, the Landry stand will be substantially down under the acronym candidate.

But Irvin will want to keep it up for partisan reasons to embarrass.

But on the other hand, if after this thing, you've got Watergate set aside, just with isolated Watergate, all right, let's have an anode cigarette and the violence and the arrest, you know what I mean?

Now, the other thing you've got to consider in your plan, you've got to consider and so forth,

Is it not worthwhile still to have Chaper go out and say what the hell went on over there?

I mean, it's a great thing.

Rather than Bob.

Brother, what I cranked out is, should we get the cigarette thing out and separate it and now?

I'm just, what do you think, brother?

Brother, I keep thinking that the ball's rolling, that's why you gotta let it go, don't you think?

For a while.

It seems he may be right, but they're right.

If this thing, you can't tell, but if this thing, this scenario should work out this way, it is best, frankly, for the people in the White House not to say a goddamn word.

It's best that I don't say a word, too.

It's what I've done.

Now, the chance you get is a little bit likely in a negotiation.

You say, sure, I did what the grand jury was working on.

Right.

I was cooperating.

I had a sense that there was corruption.

in the re-election committee, not at the time, but since Dean's investigation.

We have evidence that everything we had was turned over to Dean's court.

I wrote the very third, and that was the proper point.

Not anymore, Mr. Deacon, sir.

And this proves it.

And isn't it stupid to suggest that I should have run out and made some statement during the grand jury, which would have prejudiced that process?

Now, the law owners of this world

Acted with the best of intentions and motives, but like so many of us, it just didn't go all the way.

It wasn't good by any measure, though.

You were right.

Um, if he were my client, I would advise him to do exactly what he's doing right now.

I don't deny it all, but I'm calling right here and it takes a bit of time.

I would, yes sir.

I sure would.

I'd harlot every step of the way.

I think it would prove everything there was to prove in the grand jury.

If I were indicted, then I'd take a real hard look at my whole card.

Which is a really good deal.

Rightfully, former attorney general, a common consent would be allowed to go to Tomatoes, or would have to see Martha.

And we've had her for two, three years.

Come on.

Take all my money and throw those into the trash.

Pardon us while we're in and out.

We're all right at least from a very well-meaning, totally proper manner.

Not to name John Mitchell.

The worst thing we can do is keep on getting a little out of getting ourselves 40 offers.

I think you, I think you ruled the career of John Dean probably.

We're probably going to make his bed through it because of his desire, and hopefully because of his desire to do what was right for the president first, but we need to read it out loud because that's what he's been talking about.

That's what I said.

That's it.

We're taking a couple of bundles of shaggy money that we didn't deserve.

We're going to have to nail something else.

As far as I said before, we have a chance to murder the president.

That's what it should have been done.

We've got to turn this thing inside out.

No question.

Why didn't we do it?

Because it would have helped us.

Or we were afraid.

We didn't know it yet.

I know.

But we sure were afraid.

Well, we thought it was a goddamn, I frankly thought, I must say, I didn't, to be quite honest with you, I frankly wasn't concentrating on that.

Sure.

That's the real problem I had the whole thing.

I regret still that I was not president, campaign manager, none of this crap would have happened.

Well, the fight is.

My fight was, I had just finished Russian, and I was in the middle of a 18-0 with Vietnam.

God almighty, I was concentrated.

I didn't meet with the goddamn, with the chairman, remember, until about two months later.

The whole premise was that this was going to be very much of a self-offering, and none of us were going to have to do much time with it, because we couldn't.

Basically, the main thing was, I invited, if I had concentrated on it,

Sir, there was a time there when we were talking about what a statement by McGregor would look like while the president was in Hawaii and all that.

Yeah, yeah.

What happened?

Why didn't you do it?

Well, there's always a reason not to do things in this damn case.

This one, I think, it was found to be able to do it right.

And look, the election is just wide open.

It's huge.

You're right, you're right.

You just didn't know.

It wasn't.

And at that point, what's his name?

So it wasn't the nominee yet.

We didn't know it would be.

Well, if that wasn't, that might have changed that.

Very much so.

One thing, though, that I'm curious about.

I don't want, I don't want, I don't want.

Whoa.