Conversation 436-005

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I made the point Butts, Secretary Butts, went off and said that

Irvin was a publicity numbering chair.

This was an input sign.

I said, I took power.

I said, well, I don't care.

I was the chair of Irvin.

See, we're going to have to destroy our committee at the end of it.

But let's do it right now.

He's a good hammerhead.

But then I went to the point that there has been concern, of course, here at the boy house, about the committee proceeding.

We've got the grand jury's on the way.

concern about due process and concern about charges being made against an individual who has no right to cross-examine them on the spot.

And I said, we could... And here's the...

Here's the...

It's all rules of evidence.

And I said, we could assume that the Senate committee... We had this in mind.

We had this in mind.

So I got that out of the way.

Then they got into the Dean investigation.

I said, look, there's so... such a flow...

I did it about my...

There's such a flow...

Sources talking about testimony, which in itself is reported in different ways.

I said that this in itself would be the road that we would go down, which we would never stop.

And I said, in terms of the comments that have been made about the investigation, I said, I can't get them to respond to that here when it's a matter before the grand jury and a matter before the Senate jury.

But I said, we stand on what was said in the president's speech on April 30.

And that is, anything that was said by the president here at the White House was based on the information that we had available to us.

And I went in to the point that, look,

I also told them that you were a brief, but Dean Ron, did you get that?

Yes, that's what I was going to say.

But, thus far, and hey, and I agree, we should start taking Dean on in the public forum.

No, that's right.

Well, at least there's his ass, that's right.

But I made it clear that you clearly stood on your statement of August 29th.

Right.

That's all the information I had.

That's right.

I couldn't have walked out there and said it.

That's right.

That's basically it.

What else do they get after anything interesting?

Nothing that falls on national interest.

Do they care about the manuscript or the new document?

Unbelievable.

They're obsessed.

Everyone wants to screw them, I suppose.

And they are dead.

And we're going to treat them with the contempt they deserve.

I don't, I mean, you understand.

Clearly.

But I have no illusions.

These assholes are out to destroy us.

I have no illusions.

No, no.

I have no illusions about their obsession.

I have no illusions about how they sound.

I think they can be used.

I think, yes, sir.

I know.

And I also, if I were your guys, I also think that

A lot of you don't want to see the...

I don't know, I don't know.

Let me say, you're talking, you can't let the president know.

Let it rest a while, shit.

Let the public maybe get down a little bit.

They might like him better.

You know, I don't think you can win on the D.C. anymore.

That's true.

I'll tell you what, I just hate to get out here to my first night and go to that group.

They've been on it.

In a nice room.

I'm on the record sauce thing.

Excuse me.

I didn't make two or three changes, and they finally got up.

Did you see my changes?

No, that's fine.

Oh, they asked me.

It's a mess.

They asked me about it.

You know, whether or not, whether I said, listen, there should be no question about it, because I have a great deal of concern here.

Right.

In 69, 70, and 71.

That's right.

Absolutely.

Of course there was a letter.

I understand.

I don't remember signing it.

But I signed it with somebody.

I said, get off your ass and find out what the Christ is happening.

And Ron, don't be defensive of others.

I don't know.

I don't know either.

Well, I give up on that, because I don't even think I'm ready.

Listen, I've been after this goddamn staff for a long time.

I've been asking you to do something.

All of them and everybody else, because this goddamn Kismet group has always stopped me.

Now look,

I want the DM and the Bay of Pigs totally declassified, and I want it done in 48 hours.

You tell Hayden that.

You drive him up the wall, too.

But I want it done.

Do you understand?

This is 10 years old.

Declassified.

We've got a couple of assholes working on this thing.

Do you see any reason why it shouldn't be declassified, Ron?

Huh?

No, I see no particular reason.

to start declassifying things.

And about next week, we'll say anything that's 10 years or more old, we're just going to get out.

But now you follow along.

Would you do that?

Because Hague is disturbed because, you know.

The Army was involved in the murder of the M2.

Now listen, this guy was murdered.

I know.

And you know it, too.

Did you ever read the little book?

Read my reinterpretations book, if you want to know.

Or read the book about the 13 candidates that you want to know.

All right, second point.

Now, I just ordered a, tell us, I don't know if this helps get to the priority of the day, that by God, for the FBI to put out the story on us, and to say they can't find the records on Kennedy and Johnson.

Now, I want you to leave the story this afternoon.

I want you to take this down.

Leave the story this afternoon.

that the records of massive bugging of newsmen by Kennedy and Johnson have been destroyed or cannot be found.

Now, that's true, Ron.

That's what this goddamn Rumpelstiltskin does best.

It's all better, because they're all sticking their hands.

Ron, they did five times as much.

You know that.

Now, Kennedy bugged them in the goddamn business of the steel thing.

You remember that?

Alright, can you get that out to anybody?

That's a massive, that there's a search on for the records, we've got to get the idea out wrong, that there's a search on for the records of massive bugging of newsmen during the Kennedy-Johnson period, and we find that the records are missing.

Now, goddammit, Ron, you've got somebody, give him the cross and can't you even peruse it?

He's not very bright, but shit, he can get out until he tells us anything.

Huh?

What is it?

I said, I don't know.

This is true, because I've asked him myself.

I said, what is it?

Our records are conflicting on this.

You know?

Because I made my news conference statement.

In fact, there have been 102 national security languages that were taught.

in the county administration, 88 for Johnson, 75 in ours, which is what they gave me to say.

God damn it, it's true.

Now, the Ruppershausen effect says the FBI says they can't find the records there.

You see what I mean?

Now, you know they're lying to protect their ass, aren't they?

Now, with regard to this whole business about Ruppershausen, they'll say,

Did the president know these records were here?

And the answer is no.

I didn't know the fucking records were here.

No.

Nobody ever told me a goddamn thing about the records.

You understand what I'm saying?

And I didn't know.

Huh?

No.

Hell, I didn't.

Second point, did Hoover threaten the president and so forth?

That's pure, you know, that's horrible.

Right?

He never did.

I don't think this was Sullivan.

They should have lowered people in the FBI.

It looks to me like lower echelon FBI politics.

That's what I would say.

Did the White House...

I've already told Hank to put it in.

The White House totally cooperated.

with this investigation to find where these goddamn files were once they started.

You know, but earlier, what was going on?

Shit.

I mean, we could have asked him in two minutes.

He told us.

You understand?

Yes, sir.

We're going to ask you that.

What else did you just bring?

I think that you registered.

I just put off.

No, they're going to focus in on Henry.

Good.

Well, Henry saw, let me tell you quite definitely, Henry ordered the whole drive down.

He ordered it all on the late line, believe you me.

He was the one that was in my office, jumping up and down, about Nissen this got out, and blah blah blah got out, and I didn't give a shit about the Nissens, but he did.

He said, all right, I'm going to investigate this observation.

And he read every one of those tabs.

until the very end.

Every life.

I never saw a life.

Never.

I never wanted to see it.

You know what I mean?

I didn't bring those things to my attention.

Was the President aware that there was... John, the President was aware that a national security investigation was taking place that would greatly impair our efforts to go forward with our peace initiative in Vietnam.

Salt and all the rest.

If that information got out.

If the American position got out, we're fired.

Now, put that first on me.

Can't we get somebody on this goddamn staff to talk positively?

Yeah, we're doing that.

Absolutely.

I just spent time with all of our guys here.

That's the whole purpose of it.

That's why order is up there.

We're doing that.

And then if they say, uh, tell you what, you're the president.

Uh...

I turned to Kissinger.

Kissinger sort of weaseled out of the song.

But he was the one, you remember, right?

He didn't let go, but he didn't goddamn beat you, but not my story's worth.

Well, he read this damn stuff.

He reveled in it.

He giggled in it.

He loved it.

He wallowed in it.

He quits, starts playing games.

We're gonna let him have the hook, too.

No.

Well, I want a story to leak this afternoon that there are hundreds of FBI taps in the Johnson-Kennedy administration that are missing.

And that will force that fucking Ruckelshaus to get in and find them.

Do you know what I mean?

And then you tell a newsman to get an ass Ruckelshaus.

Now give us the record of the number of taps that were done in this period.

Where are they?

Who has possession of them?

Do you understand what I'm saying?

You've got to fight.

That's a couple of other people that don't know how to fight.

You see, with your idea, your new era of getting along with the press, which I approve of, I don't believe that you don't have to fight for things like this.

Well, I understand that.

I understand that.

The new era of getting along with the press is going to be mature.

I'll just say this, Mr. President.

Let me follow up on that.

The fear of getting involved in the press, cultivating the press, believing, makes it a lot easier to do this type of thing.

Yeah, it's a good thing you've got somebody listening to you.

Remember now, just say, hundreds of, just say, scores of files are missing.

The FBI, that investigation, I'll get that story out.

In the Johnson and Kennedy administration.

Just say pardon, use a term.

Over 100 files are missing.

Let's play a little with that a little bit.

Let's get a little attention on the fact that this business about us is just not Hoover.

Shit, Hoover was playing with Johnson and Kennedy as if it ever dreamed his presidency.

So probably not.

Do you see my point?

Do you think it's a good idea?

I'm going to have to go tell Henry to get it out there.

Let me just get it out there.

Because it's the right thing to do.

I don't know what happened.

Because they can't

Say now, how would Revitos come to handle it?

Make a statement, ask a question.

Do you think you've prepared yourself for this Q&A?

I think so.

I've got to be sure the White House cooperated.

I suppose that means when I say the White House, the Secretary General, the FBI, it's of course we did.

Don't be a bit defensive about it, you know.

Of course we did.

But all were approved under the law by the imaginary child.

See, the problem here is that every place can come through.

Is what you said.

What I said.

But it's not even a problem.

The fact that Mitchell said that there were no taps.

God damn it, he lied.

That's right.

The fact that Clyde said there were no taps.

It was assured by Mitchell that there were no taps.

Now, I understand that every woman in the damn town says Mitchell's sick, but you're not.

It does.

Now, why does he have to make a name and a head for Mitchell to have done that?

I don't know.

Why do you think that?

Because... Well, he doesn't have a name in national security.

Maybe so.

That's what you have to do.

But you understand, the names are on the table, but the password?

Mitchell's name's on every fucking one of them.

Of course he knew they were a Catholic.

After he said they were destroyed, he knew damn well they were destroyed.

I don't know how much plus that would do.

The round.

The best defense of the whole offense.

Now for God's sakes, can't we get out this afternoon on a crash basis the fact that the whole FBI

They're looking now for the missing Kennedy-Johnson tags.

Good.

Look, I've asked you to do many things.

You, you can't do the rest.

Most of you try, but sometimes you get used to it.

On this one, this is the least I've ever done, and it's the highest I've ever done.

And I agree, it's important that you read it.

It is from right along the Redwoods-Hallisbury.

I'm talking about this task.

Absolutely.

Why not?

Oh, listen, there's another story, folks.

I don't know why I was cooperating with the daytime, with the post-11, with the ship.

We didn't know them.

The goddamn things were back there at the pier.

They were taking a wave, you know, Mitchell crossing.

Hoover was gone.

Last thing was Franklin.

I think what really happened, Sullivan, a new buyer, Sullivan had done this work.

Sullivan bought a computer, a fireman, a cooler, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know,

The main thing is to fight this battle all out.

Do you agree?

Yes, I do.

As we walk out of there, he said, oh, you might come.

You should come.

I know.

Of course you have to walk out of there.

But you know, it took, you know, restraint on all of our parts not to do it.

The last job we worked the hell out of the water today, I happened to think that it was a great thing not to do it yet.

I agree with what he said.

You mean, let us be rich?

I'm pretty sure.

Is that what you want?

Yes, sir.

We're blasting out of the water on the investigation thing.

Yes, sir.

Yeah.

But today there's nothing to do with it.

Mm-hmm.

No, nothing.

There'll come a time.

As a matter of fact, it may not be us that does it.

It may be home.

It may be early.

Yeah.

Remember, there are a couple of big guns out there that have just bought the cell.

They're going to say, sure, it's part of your life.

You've been great.

You ought to get off this bad ass and save your life.

I do think this idea of the fact that there are missing FBI files is urgent.

There are, because I told you.

I told you.

I want to know, what happened to the request?

Did they give us the information?

They can't find that?

Has it been destroyed?

Has it been burned?

Is it lost?

What is the situation?

Alright, fine.

Alright, we're going to get that story out.

We've got to ask where that is.

Run us up.

Is he looking for me?

If what we have was wrong before, why can't we have it now?

Are there some files that are missing?

Where else?

You can ask them at the traffic station.

The best thing that can happen to us now is that rather than having to appear that we were going to the correct interview station, I hope you can find out right there that somebody else had it.

Can I point?

Sure, that's right.

I go wrong.

Of course the, I don't remember, go ahead and probably write something about it.

It's a paper mine.

Of course we had somebody who was in charge of the leak.

The fire story indicates that I was in charge of pumping out even the ulcer.

Is that right?

Well, it was better than anything.

You said it, didn't you?

The letter to Hoover said, help Grover, help the plumbers.

How did he handle it?

Star, you see the Star story?

Yeah, but did he ever read the text for the letter, was he?

No, but reading how the Star headline, Star, you know, tripled the letter.

No, he did not say, help Grover, help the plumbers.

He said, help him.

the headline was, you know, Crowe, but the thrust of the story was the letter to Hoover simply saying, Crowe was the guy in charge of this investigation.

And then it goes on to say that this indicates that the President had personal interest and concern about getting an investigation and about putting papers, which in turn led to...

This is my letter?

No, but it doesn't say you're better than him.

The story?

Yeah.

The story's right.

The story, first, the fact that you wrote to him in 1971 and said, Crowe is the guy who's in charge of this.

That's correct.

Which is correct.

That's wrong.

But then the story goes on to, does not go on to say that you were aware of all the contract that he was breaking at all.

He said, he said that as a result of

Activities conducted by what became known as the Plumbers, you know, the elsewhere, a burglary took place, but it does not suggest awareness on your part or involvement in that.

It simply suggests, I guess, an addition to the problem, that he said to the President, no, the President, good God, the President puts a motion in front of a lot of him, but does he know what the President's dumb assholes are going to do?

Well, I don't worry about that.

I don't mind that I'm sort of still here tonight.

So I said, health proof.

What, the crash probe's an audible thing?

I said, how do you know today?

Well, I said, I pointed a portion of it at you.

The president directed Crowe to take over.

I said, Crowe is already wanted after he was involved in the election.

But confirm the fact that the president did.

No, I didn't.

I was cautious on the quotes because I didn't want him to leave this environment.

Well, they've already taken over.

You've already taken over.

Well, I think Buzzard gets a little bit too excited about how up they are, because I analyze these people right now, and it's not over the scourge building.

As a matter of fact, I have a question whether or not we should be bothering you with this type of language.

It's not that significant, Decker.

I mean, never say shy.

Holloman was great that way.

He was...

You know, he went through so much that we never would bother him.

But I shouldn't be bothered with what's necessary.

Chris, what can I do about a story that says it's called crude?

Yeah.

God damn it, Dale.

I didn't tell him to go fuck the goddamn Ellsberg place.

And that's why you shouldn't be bothered with this.

What we... Say.

See, we're moving off of our strategy.

How?

We're moving away from our strategy because what we said...

is that the way to deal with this problem is for the President to continue with his operation.

That we were going to have more openness with the Capitol.

That we were going to have a law that we were going to proceed with the business and the Congress and all this type of thing and also the press and what we're all doing here.

is that we are all in you in everyday service.

Bringing it all into me.

Bringing it all into you.

We've got to knock that off.

And the other thing is that all of us talk about strategies and so forth.

We'll put that together.

And at the right time, when we've got it thought out, then we bring it to you.

and discuss it with them.

On the strategy, the only thing I do is recruit them for one little minute's fuel.

I don't mind.

For Christ's sake, put up with my comparison.

The FBI, you know, there are files that are supposed to read that, but they're not missing.

There are missing files that are missing.

But, as you said, the four of us, as you said, we can't do anything.

We allow ourselves to be consumed by this.

We'll destroy ourselves.

We won't destroy ourselves.

I agree, I agree.

I think you've got to get all of them.

I don't mean, I don't know, Crowe today, or somebody else tomorrow.

Most people don't know Crowe, and they aren't involved.

I think they're ready now.

But I just don't want you to get the decision to get you a ground size tomorrow.

Yes.

Does the president know about these specific things?

Hell no.

I never read one of the documents.

I issued an order for a national security investigation, at least.

Yes.

Agreed.

That is the case.

I approve.

I approve the national security investigation.

Yeah.

At least.

Attorney General approved it.

That's really all.

That's just what's present.

In all of this, the problem that we had in terms of making this, you know, the difficulty of

Good God, we can't allow ourselves to move into a frame of mind and a point of view which I slipped into a little bit this morning.

Well, I don't.

I should.

I mean, the least bit self-conscious or guilty feeling about conducting a national security leak in terms of the Pentagon Papers, which was top-secret material.

Well, also, they released, not just the Pentagon Papers, the leaked assault documents.

Yes, sir.

That is a very legitimate internal, uh, that Henry's finding out about that, that he's getting himself into.

Well, that's right.

But you're right, he's going to be a kid in the summer.

Poor Al, he'll be in there, you know.

And if the nation feels, and it gives the sense, that we're consumed by them, that we're back into a corner.

We've got to get Buzzard.

Buzzard's got to handle the gun stand problem independently.

So you have this big game.

And not how many of them.

Every five minutes.

Like, five minutes.

I want you to do that and say, Lord, just move it away from me.

Don't move it.

That's right.

Because you know, otherwise, we're on the defense.

We're answering them rather than going around.

Now it's true that they don't have their story.

So it's like, God damn it.

You know, take my first example.

I guess it was all right.

I had a massive search.

They didn't read about that file.

Every memo that I ever read.

As I said, one little piece of paper.

But that, I think, proves one little innocent paper is all deemed as God out of a noose, honey, Mr. President.

I think that proves a point.

And we said that we're worth it.

And it proved not to be worth it.

In other words, we should be concerned with the... Of course, it does mean...

There may be other news summary names, but I asked Larry and me how those were handled.

They said the president has marked the news summary as never.

It says, has been suggested that or requested that you look into this or that.

All right.

Well, shit, that could come from the staff, from Zickler, all of them, from Hurley, from Krogh, right?

I used to tell Bob every day, send out something, you know, Well, anyway, but that search does show you some of this stuff.

Anyway, I'm glad that one's good.

He said he's got something for the president.

We know that.

Absolutely.

And that he would have something.

I think he would have had it already.

No, no, he'd had it.

He had a direct memo from me.

That would be a big story.

That would probably be a big story that I think he would have had it out there.

I can agree.

We have to do this.

But it seems to me, without filling out your schedule, that your day can be better used instead.

Maybe I'll come in to you.

afternoon and say, here's what's developed on this .

Here's what we're doing about it.

Here's what the rest of the day.

You can be involved in the speech for both.

Definitely.

Meeting with the choir.

Meeting with as terrible as it is, but I think it's important to do.

Meeting with some of the congressional members.

Yes.

Meeting with some members of the cabinet.

Stimulate, you know, get them charged.

I'm not talking about power.

I'm just talking about a schedule that fits into our strategy.

And...

You know, we're awful good at talking about it when we're talking about the staff.

I think we may be.

You're right.

We're overreacting.

We're over-responsive.

Of course, I... We're always looking for things.

It's a comedy that...

errors that had been kept behind them in a self-serving way, as if they had instituted a massive search, and there you know how I said they out-putted a fence, and the White House cooperated and continued to help.

Part of them was gone by that time.

You know, you ask about why it wouldn't take a week?

Oh, goddammit.

We didn't know where our data papers were.

Mitchell had said they were destroyed.

It'll be a rough start.

Another reason.

Why?

Because the papers are not destroyed.

Oh, they'll say there was an attempt on the product in the White House over here.

Hiding the papers.

That's why you better get out the story about the... Oh, well.

I think you get the good advice from... Maybe we're all...

At the end of the day, they come in and say, all right, here's where this thing stands.

And also, Mr. President, if something like this develops, and they proceed to determine what the facts are, and we proceed to find what the facts are, and then we come to you and say, here's the problem.

Here are the facts.

And, uh, that need to be done once a day, while you are carrying out the strategy, which is important, which is the right strategy.

Yeah.

Okay, we'll get, we'll get the, yep.

Tell, uh, ISO's office that they can work another hour, about the, uh,

I'll take a look at their first speech at about 3 o'clock.

Okay, good.

No, no, 4 o'clock.

That's going to be a little more time after I see Ron.

I don't want to see him.

Okay, good.

I got it.

Okay, good luck, Ron.

Yes, sir.