Conversation 451-023

TapeTape 451StartThursday, February 18, 1971 at 6:16 PMEndThursday, February 18, 1971 at 6:37 PMTape start time04:36:26Tape end time04:57:13ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Kissinger, Henry A.Recording deviceOval Office

On February 18, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 6:16 pm to 6:37 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 451-023 of the White House Tapes.

Conversation No. 451-23

Date: February 18, 1971
Time: 6:16 pm - 6:37 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Henry A. Kissinger

     Vietnam
          -Military developments
          -Troop deployment
          -Tactical situation
          -Melvin R. Laird
          -President’s view of war
                -Presidential election
          -Bombing
                -Missions
          -Khe Sanh
          -Laos
                -North Vietnamese losses
                -South Vietnamese Army
                      -Effect

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[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number
LPRN-T-MDR-2014-020. Segment declassified on 10/10/2018. Archivist: MAS]
[National Security]
[451-023-w001]
[Duration: 41s]

      Vietnam
            -Plan to use Cambodian troops
                    -Behind Vietnamese troops
            -Lon Nol
                    -US occupation

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      Vietnam
         -Troops
               -Reserves
                     -General Creighton W. Abrams, Jr.
         -Helicopter losses
               -Admiral Thomas H. Moorer
               -Laos operation
         -Communist influence in United States’ government
               -John W. Gardner
                     -Morton H. Halperin
               -William A. K. (“Tony”) Lake
                     -Edmund S. Muskie
               -Halperin
                     -Role on Kissinger’s staff
              -Gardner
                     -Lyndon B. Johnson’s comment
         -Kissinger’s forthcoming luncheon with John Dutton
         -Gardner
         -Effect of liberal positions on the war
         -South Vietnamese military activity
              -Laos
                     -Progress
              -Future prospects

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BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
[National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number LPRN-T-MDR-
2014-020. Segment exempt per Executive Order 13526, 3.3(b)(1) on 04/30/2019. Archivist:
MAS]
[National Security]

[451-023-w002]
[Duration: 2m 43s]

     VIETNAM, ITALY

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     The Vice President
          -Possible foreign trip
               -President’s view
                     -Priority
                           -Laos operation

     Vietnam
          -Kissinger’s conversation with Joseph C. Kraft
               -President compared with Democrats
                     -Hubert H. Humphrey
               -1968 election
                     -Danger of radicals on policy
                     -George C. Wallace
                     -Ronald W. Reagan

     Peace prospects
          -Kissinger’s suggestions
               -Forthcoming meeting with Le Duc Tho
               -Withdrawal
                -Cease-fire
                -Prospects
          -Bombing
          -General Nguyen Van Thieu agreement

Kissinger left at 6:37 pm

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

That's all right.
because the North Vietnamese are not limited by troops, by mass hours.
They're limited by the difficulty of access.
And, uh, and, uh, take that profit itself by putting the Chinese in there.
If we went north, if we landed in Hong Kong, or if we landed in Vinh, or something like that, then it's conceivable.
I don't think that the presence of consensus had come in.
But if I had a duty now, yeah.
Oh, they moved back in, didn't they?
Oh, yeah.
They practically don't make it in time in the future because they're part of the intelligence.
And they're so confused or they're walking out of their community.
No, that's what they're going to do.
Well, now they're pretty sure what it is, and they're moving it whenever they can.
Well, they're still pulling some.
They're not moving anyone from the coast.
But again, they tried one, and they're trying another one tonight.
They did one, but they're doing another one tonight.
Now, some people scream that that's a violation of the understanding.
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
Because they're technically part of me.
But I mean, because they think that he did violate the understanding of me with that.
Oh, I see.
I see.
And they're probably in the sand.
Yeah, but all the tax would sell for most of the time.
What are they going to do?
They're going to fix this.
In fact, they claimed they sank eight ships last time.
I don't know if that's true.
Well, they've got one more schedule.
It's already open.
I am.
That's all that's authorized me to do.
What's your reaction?
Well, I'm here with people of Western Interest.
They all feel the same.
I've seen them thrive.
They're not good at it.
I haven't seen any of these players.
Well, they have a little bit of copy, but I have practiced with them this morning.
Oh, you've seen them?
Yeah.
I have practiced with them.
I've seen some of them.
You've seen some of them?
Yeah.
Laird is a funny guy.
He's numerous like a main character in this film.
Sorry, Laird.
You can taste it.
And he's also loyal to you.
Very nice.
So I, uh... Well, he is, he's a...
I rather like him, yeah.
He's a rascal, but I'm going for a rascal.
I didn't do it.
I'm listening now.
I've got it.
I'm listening.
I'm listening.
For us, you can call this thing, sucker, get out of there.
But the key would be, I guess it's not that we want the drugs, you know, it's not that we have to lose an election, but we're going to have to lose this war.
That's my view.
My view is that we're going to have to allow this.
I thought the weather had been on and on for the next three days.
It's expected to be perfect.
It's perfect now.
And they're sounding them.
They're putting every 52 they've got in there.
They're putting tracks there.
They're pounding them around the block.
Well, there's the grounder, and we've got it.
I think 150 yards of the, of the front line crew.
And, uh, those other enemies, they're running on these, uh, and it's going to be awfully tough for them to take this problem.
They, they took it as an obvious case, actually, years ago today.
And they're going to run for us.
And we're going to have to shoot up a lot of their troops.
That's going to be, if it's still done, I don't know if the press is going to try to cut it out.
The main event should be over.
And if they are, if they keep their hopes cut, they are going to tell them the club operation is going extremely well.
Yes, everybody's free.
That's what I heard.
But if they would roll over and fly that 10 miles from their point, then this is completely true.
On the other hand, all of the units are going to lose up there.
He does not feel ready to put an event like this next year or later this year.
The future itself is East by 12.
They're going to be standing here for years to come.
I guess if they fight well, North Vietnam can never be North Vietnam.
Never.
Because North South Vietnam has more people than North.
That's more equipment for us.
Those three members will be at the end of the supply line.
If the other people work against it.
3,000 are in reserve, so that's April 4th is an active reserve, whatever.
And then there's another division he's got in reserve, too.
We've just got to stay cool now and shove in whatever reserves are needed.
It's going to be tough, and we'll need the strong will the next few weeks of the panicky moment.
But I think, having paid the drives, we ought to stay in there now, isn't it?
Look at the energy, just look at the energy from the stars.
And just shoot them up.
We got it all taken in terms of being able to stay at home.
And Moro gave me some statistics today of helicopter losses.
But actually they lost only six more helicopters.
I wonder if...
I wonder if...
Yes, sir.
They took a trip up and said, you know, this is kind of all getting together and going at this time.
They aren't all going together here.
And so it's quite a lot.
What I'm beginning to think, who I'm going to go for, who I'm going to take to common is this one.
They're all going to Santa.
And I think I'm going to go to Santa.
That's great.
So he's got his staff and Helter, who used to be on my staff for three months.
He was...
which is chief aide of our maintenance.
And at some moment, I heard some memos that Halpern wrote for me.
He was trying to butter me up.
He is John Halpern, your kid.
Son of a bitch.
What can I do?
I find Halpern is alive.
He must be just a man who played in peace.
I know he must be pure, and I think he's a man who played his core down in the war.
He's certainly not in charge of policy research, which is what he thought he was going to be.
And I don't think Lake is, A, he's in the heavy, B, his knowledge is not very out of date.
Helga doesn't have any inside knowledge anyway, because he was across the street writing think-tanks.
For me, he didn't even see any documents.
As I said, I'll get rid of him in July 69.
But Halton is probably the saddest of the list.
I know.
I heard that he is.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
That is a tragedy.
At one stage, I thought God meant it, but potential, so I took care of it.
Uh, here in your house, it's a tragedy.
It's hard to get in.
It's got to be smoking.
It's hard to get in.
I said it yesterday.
It's over there today.
It won't be in the water.
You can't help it.
It's here in the house.
It's just a bunch of slime.
You can't stop it.
It's here in the mouth.
Two sides.
You can't do that.
I think it's got to be in the water.
I said it yesterday.
It's going to be in the water.
It's going to be in the mouth.
You can't help it.
And so, you know, to say your policy is a policy that leads to more war, what is their alternative?
If they have the guts to say, don't get out, but then they don't have the guts to say, I may have guts to...
It's a pity to see a man of this kind in a covered house.
Henry's in New York.
You've got to see him financially.
I have noticed that thanks to Paul, he tried to sign his financing of Stein.
It's a way left, you know.
Yeah.
How exciting it is against his past since 2011.
These other investments he made, he's got two.
Paul Stein, isn't that amazing?
Here's Stein, one of the richest men in the country.
He's in 2011.
Oh, yeah.
And, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh,
I can see it all over this government.
I don't think this is the time.
I think we're going to be lost.
That's what I think.
I think we're just a piece of this.
We're a piece of this.
We're a piece of this.
We're a piece of this.
You know, I just want to give you a little test here.
I'm sorry.
Come on.
You know, I can't do a test.
You know what I mean?
Yes.
I'm sorry.
And I told Sandler this, I said, I love you, but... And I said, but can you really feel that it's different?
Democracy in this country wouldn't be taught to me.
He asked me, wouldn't you?
I said, the thing you never get that it's for is you've kept it right in this country related to this, to the government.
We're in all normal situations.
had to do this difficult thing.
And so you'll still turn out to be the best protection of the students who are riding against you, even though they'll never thank you for it.
Because the alternative to you in 1960 was not a liberal Democrat, but a Wallace or a Reagan.