Conversation 455-002

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Well, that's one of the things we're trying to do.

Yes, sir.

We've got a bit down there with it.

Yeah, I flew all over it.

Five and a half hours of shopping after each setting.

Well, it was.

And we have one very important story.

I think we got a good story.

We weren't down there trying to put any pressure on them.

We were trying to take a little, and that was good.

And the other thing is I think maybe that Matt Reed and others down there working with Florida Power and Light have figured out a way to cool that water in a closed system.

And if this does come to pass, this is going to be a

This is going to produce a lot of local pressure and I think make dealing with the park and the park watershed problems a lot easier if this can work and we don't have to hang in there in the courts to prevent Florida Power and Light from going ahead and operating their nuclear plane.

Well, I'm going.

As soon as I can get the...

I've got to get a handle on the department.

We've got to get some people.

Well, we sure can't, Mr. President.

I've done as much...

speaking, as I think I should do.

I don't do it anymore.

I agree.

I told Collins.

I'm sure I...

He's got the message here.

He's trying to, you know, he's got to get Congress back on the page.

You'll have a long tour.

He's been so good up on the Hill, too.

I have, too.

Well, I've been up there in the appropriations hearings.

Mr. President, I'm the Undersecretary.

I need your help and guidance.

I really do, because...

The name Charlie DiBona came up.

It was suggested Charlie DiBona, and it was suggested.

That's correct.

And he was pushed, I was pushed pretty hard by Peter Flanagan on this, so I got to know Charlie, and certainly a fine guy.

Doesn't have the really background of knowledge that I would like to bring into the department because of the time factor.

The one thing, if we were bringing a person in in the beginning of a

four-year term, but I think we want to get this department performing as fast as possible.

No, but he's a very, very bright guy.

I think he does not.

I would agree.

A good guy.

The other person, of course, that we've looked at is Jim Schlesinger.

And Jim does have knowledge in this field because he works along with the budget of the department.

And it seems to me that there is an advantage of bringing someone either up from the department itself or out of government.

Well, the closest thing I have is Bill McCord.

Bill Pecora is head of the geological survey.

He is on postage.

Do you know him?

Yes, sir.

He's a bird.

He's a good man.

He looks Italian.

Well, he looks sort of Italian.

I don't know how far back you go before you get there, but...

He doesn't have an accent.

But he's a hell of a guy.

But what I would like to do is if we can move...

Hollis Dole sideways.

Hollis is a scholar.

He's not a good administrator, but he is a scholar.

He's a sort of a researcher.

He's, I think, has good credentials.

And then we could put Pecora, promote from within there as a top mineral and energy man.

He's a much tougher guy.

Where could you put Dole?

Well, we've been talking about this new commission of...

that's being established from minerals are from materials.

As the sort of executive director, this is what Fred Malek has mentioned two or three times.

I don't understand just the fact that I know him in the Navy.

Well, he's a good guy.

He's a good guy.

But I don't want to keep him if he can't work with me.

Well, it's not a question of working with me.

I don't think he'll perform.

He's not a very strong guy.

John says if you told me about your concern, I said no.

Well, we're going to work that out.

I'm not crazy.

You can move him over to the convention.

That's nice.

You know, the conventions are so horrible.

All of them.

They're so terribly stacked that almost everybody can be in the mission.

Well, this is a special one.

This is that so-called Haley-type commission that is going to look at mineral resources.

He's a good man.

Sir, he's a good man.

Well, I'm not sure of that.

Maybe Bill's a pretty good man.

I think Bill might be fine.

Oh, I think he was in class.

Bill was country old.

I don't want to do anything.

The whole hope that should be toward young people, and I'm all for that.

You find a good young doctor, that's fine.

He's got a text of your own type.

On the other hand, there are people who have immediately retired students like Ross.

She's got one of the great companies, one of the great administrative managers in the whole world.

She's got Bob Tyson, a U.S. student who's retired.

The chairman of their finance committee.

There's a hell of a guy, 65, 16 years old, ready to go out and perish the world.

Only good for a couple of years, three years, but very good.

And with more of the great developers.

The other car, retired, I'll tell you.

The U.K. did, he said he retired in 58.

Oh, I don't know.

Most of them have just got lead in their heads, but they're pretty good.

Well, we're looking at that.

Fred's operation is covering a pretty broad spectrum, but we haven't actually for the jobs that we have today.

I think we've got to put an undersecretary in there.

The way this thing is going, particularly in the preparation for your reorganizations,

who is an inside man, and I mean inside in terms of the administration.

And that's why I...

This department is going to be the big department of all sources.

And it has a lot of external as well as internal budget and accounting and analysis problems.

And also tremendous analysis.

It's a group of fiefdoms.

And...

That's why we need a strong analytical type and a guy that knows his way around because, again, I come to the fact that in 20 months from now we're going to be, the performance of that department is going to be right around your neck one way or the other.

And we want to make damn sure that we don't have a dead period of two or three months while some guy gets oriented.

I heard, and this is the point that I guess, of course, Mel is an old friend, and I know he's had some problems, I guess, with Jim's license here.

There's no question about it, and he wants to talk to me about it.

But I wanted to make sure how you felt about it, because this is the person that's going to be tracking the OMB more than any other person in the whole department.

Well, let me hear you in my analysis, Mr. Foster.

for one hour in my whole life.

He is a great scholar.

He is a

in terms of organization.

And in terms of understanding, he's about light years ahead of anybody who's ever had him.

It's just a real change.

He's changed.

That's what I mean.

He understands.

The real question I have is the one point that I don't know whether George Schultz has voiced, John, I'm checking up, is I'd like to know, I think what Raj needs to know, how has he been?

Well, I checked this out.

Of course, the first guy, I know that.

I checked this out with Bob Mayo.

I had a long talk.

He said he was the best he ever worked with in this area.

But how did he say he wasn't managing people?

His answer was strong in the affirmative that he had a high ability of doing that.

How was the morale of the people who worked with him?

Well, that's what I have to get from the people that you want.

That's right.

This was as a result of having worked with him and him having worked with people for some time.

that, frankly, you think if you want a good manager, if you want a first-class operator to work up your bill and everything for the Natural Resources Department,

and somebody that can run that department so that you can be up and you should run the department.

I want to get out.

All you've got to do is, all you should do with the department is you have to, you should come back and make that box to everybody and go around and shake their hands about everything.

We're doing like that all the time.

What I mean is don't run the department.

Don't make a decision.

If you just listen to it and run the department, you can run it.

You can do all your paperwork.

You'll get a paper procession.

And within that year of the budget, it'll be a hell of a good paper to expand, which is good.

And you'll be the salesman, not the operator.

working for a man, he's probably the best you can get at the emergency room.

Well, he told me, provided he can do the personal things, you've got to deal with it.

You've got to keep running.

Well, I think we can do that.

One of the things is, he has one of the things that is plus, as far as I'm concerned, is avocation, is conservation, and he's a bird watcher, all that kind of stuff.

Is that similar?

Well, it's a little different.

It's a little different.

I want to spend some of the afternoon with Mel, and I can help everybody in this, because I know Mel way back.

Thank you.

Males own good, my view.

You ought to get Suss in your name out of the budget.

Get him over there, or you've got a man in the running.

Well, I...

I thought it through a lot, but if you're satisfied that you can come along with Schlesinger, he'll run you a hell of a good show.

He'll develop your reorganization plan.

He will be a strong advocate.

Nobody can question his credentials about being for all this environment stuff, which you've done before.

He'll also be a hell of a fighter.

He will be in fighting.

As long as he gets on the right side of the issue.

We've already determined that.

It is really an open question.

And I think that Schlesinger is probably the best guy to help engineer that thing from the inside.

And they're greatly better than any man that I've ever seen.

And I know that.

You know.

Yeah, I saw it way back in 1947.

Schlesinger will be.

That's what it is.

The Corps of Engineers.

It's being developed.

And they'll explain it back.

He wants the job.

That's another thing I like about him.

He really wants it.

Yeah, but we've had a few changes that have been in trouble for a while.

You couldn't run with that.

Oh, God.

And therefore, now that you're over there, you don't want to run.

But if you get disbursed, you're going to run.

Well, I think we're going to run it as a team.

I don't want to get so far away from it that we lose.

One of the places I can help is part of the lots on the hill, I think.

And I don't want to lose that.

And I don't want to... Also, you can help them around with people.

Oh, I think we're on the way on that, don't you think?

Oh, yeah.

Of course, that's one of the reasons we put you in the job.

They had all the customers.

He had great enthusiasm.

All this shit, I don't know about him, but he had a tractor, and he made lots of good money.

But he got himself tied in.

But don't let Mel run over you.

No, no.

I won't let Mel run over me.

All right.

For his own good, I think Mel is going to get out of this invisible fight.

He's got an area in the budget.

And Mel has somebody else to fight.

Well, we'll do that.

I think we can come to center on this thing pretty quickly.

It's in everybody's interest that we do, I think.

I have held up Craig Russell's letter.

I think we ought to move on now.

Well, we wanted to see if we could be in a position to make an offer.

Well.

And so, yes, we did.

And all things being equal, we'll go out and complete the session.

All right.

So I would say the acceptance will go forward late this afternoon unless you appear otherwise.

One sidelight on this that I think you should know about, Bud Zumwalt called me from South America yesterday, tried to get me all day, and finally the connection worked about 8 o'clock last night.

He is deeply concerned that

about some questions that have been raised by Stennis and Margaret Smith.

Current questions, not the old questions that were raised during his hearing.

But he has a feeling that somebody's after this guy and that

Maybe he's going to get sort of crucified in some...

Which guy?

Russell?

No, De Bonham.

Charlie De Bonham, who's his son.

Oh, oh.

And I just passed that on to you because he is a good man.

But he has something else.

And there is something for him.

Yeah, I know you.

And I don't want his not getting this job because he's been suggesting that.

I think we have to do this.

Sure, he's analyzed that budget over and over again and knows his department, knows his missions.

I think you should tell them all now that we

Well, he's just afraid that somehow through these questions... Well, there's some conflict of interest question about his association with the University of Rochester, and I don't know anything about it.

Nonsense.

At the time we were appointing him, what was it?

What happened was Margaret Smith said she was over her dead body in that church.

Yeah, and that's all because of that volunteer army guy.

Yeah, he didn't like it.

Mr. President, for two minutes, let me report to you on the pipeline problems, because I think you should have our sort of feeling.

We've had the Washington series of hearings.

We are starting next, this week, I guess, in Alaska, a series of hearings.

I have tried to keep the lid on the whole thing by not responding to the proposition that this decision has already been made and that these hearings are a farce.

Give everybody a chance.

The facts of the thing are is that I think the oil companies are having some misgivings as to the economic feasibility of this whole proposition.

And we probably are going to start meeting with them on the 4th of March.

And we probably should review again the alternate methods of getting that out of there.

And there are only two, really.

One's the railroad, and the other one is a new concept, a type of vessel that

though it's on paper that people believe might work.

That is all interlocked with the native land claims issue.

And I don't believe there's a chance in this world of starting any laying of any pipe while the ground is frozen this year.

I think it's going to have to be in the next year if

if we do it, because I don't see the Congress coming to grips with an 80-plane issue in a meaningful way until fairly late in the year because of the difference between the House position and the Senate position.

That bill is going to have to be written in conference.

It's a pretty long way from our position, which is very similar to the position we took in the last conference.

The question that arises is how bad we need the oil.

Obviously, based on what we're trying to do with oil prices and based on what we're trying to do vis-a-vis the Middle East, we need it and need it pretty badly.

So it's going to be damn difficult to resolve this thing.

Two quick things.

Well, we haven't got this directly.

Whether we're getting this indirectly...

as a means of conveying this.

Whether we're not, I don't know, but we're going to start meeting with... Well, he was and he wasn't, and that's his position and his sort of fuzziness.

Well, it stands.

I think he was, too, but the problem has not been solved as far as how you handle this oil south of Valdez, whether you... how big a fleet of tankers, what the marine...

problems are in getting that oil into the coastal ports, west coast ports.

It's a hell of a lot of oil, and it's going to be practically a bridge of tankers up there to do it in.

So that part of the problem has not been solved, and I think that's got the oil companies looking a second time.

What I think we've got to do is we've got to continue to pursue this thing on a national need basis so that we always have got a handle on these conservationists that are trying to push us out.

And so I'm going to be making statements periodically on the oil needs and on the energy needs of the country so we keep the country as a whole with us.

when we make a decision to get that oil out of there, and when we issue the permit.

And I think this puts you...

The man knows most of it about over here in Spine.

Well, he knows a lot about it.

About the oil needs.

That's right.

Not about the pipeline.

But the point is, he was served with that... That's right.

The Schultz person was there, but he's a party member, so you might see him written in the woods.

So don't get the Schultz man blaming the affiliate on oil needs.

Well, we're going to, we want to decide.

Well, it's kind of all political.

I know you.

And I've met with George.

We've had an hour with him.

He's been here for a couple of days.

He's been here.

Well, this is one of the reasons that I want to move Hollis sideways a little and put a real strong guy in there like Pecora because I believe that he is going to be able to deal better

with Lincoln and with Stans.

No, he doesn't.

He's a scholar type fellow.

A hell of a fine guy.

He's a hell of a fine guy.

And we need to put a little tougher breed in there.

And I think Pecora is the guy we want to do it.

And I think we will...

cover a lot of our morale problems when we promote a couple of guys from within.

Do you know we've got a national energy policy study underway?

Oh, I know it.

Hell, I've gotten into it.

Okay.

Well, let's be sure it's a benefit because he's such a great guy to be more, you know, talking about more expenses.

I came down the other side, frankly, because

There were a few political problems, but more than that, to me, I did damn well to just not go out there.

It's a good thing we didn't go on that deal.

Now, looking to the future, we've got to have you last.

There's no question about it.

The point is, how do we get him in?

I think there, Lincoln is a, you know him?

Yeah, and I was going to couple hours with him.

It's life or death.

He is very thoughtful and honest, man.

And I just let him work with me.

You just got to spend a little bit of time with him to get him to the point.

I'll let you do the job.

One of the things that I want to do on the count stands is to move on Hollis because he told me that, in his opinion, Hollis still was the most incompetent man in Washington.

And this makes it more hard.

So it makes it a little difficult for me.

You're going to peddle into that commission now?

Well, I don't have a strong interest in that.

No, this is not another way to peddle.

It's a way to do it.

Handle, handle.

But they're just going to take a little more action.

You're probably right, so I don't put them on the screen.

Well, that's the problem, then, man.

That is the problem.

All right.

I can give you the next one.

I went out in Illinois and made money in that big conservative lower Illinois.

Everything flew pretty well for me.

But the revenue sharing flew better than I thought it would.

The health thing, I was scared to death.

Even our health thing, you know, we're working.

You see, our health thing wasn't as well delineated, Sam, as it is now.

We got a little better.

Well, this is before it came out.

Well, I didn't think it was coming out.

Oh, we want to get a picture of you.

Shoot across here.

You guys can do it.

I think you're going to really be proud of this department.

Give me about another 60 days.

Don't let them bury you down on the streets.

I think it would be good to have Colson sit down on this meeting while they retire.