Conversation 457-005

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but he's been going on for years.

We've had an interstitial ending, all right?

And he's got some surgery.

because things are bigger, it's not that big of a difference, you know what I mean?

But let's try this, you know, I'm just going to read it.

It's not the most famous thing I've ever said, but it kind of makes sense.

Because it would be great, it would be kind of important.

It doesn't have to be public, it doesn't have to be ours.

It's not our rights, though.

Now, I'm not just gonna go over and edit and try to do it.

I wouldn't.

No, no, no.

I told you when I was sitting here, what Ron was saying, that I would wait until the camera was on.

I wouldn't.

You shouldn't put anything down.

They agree.

Don't try to do anything.

That's why you're doing this radio.

If it had all the stuff, the emotional pieces, you'd be able to do it.

You can't go on without a specimen.

So, you've got to find a degree in the press.

I'm hammering off.

And he's just got to be prepared for it.

It's too bad.

He doesn't actually have a blind spot on that because as an intellectual, he understands the broad implications of this.

It is an important option.

But nobody here wants to understand about it right now.

Well, they've got to write something, don't you see?

And I did that week, and that's why every week is just recent.

So I've been trying to tell everybody what I've been saying for years.

I've been saying, here's a bunch of reporter friends.

He's just ecstatic about it.

He's just in there now.

Much better than last year.

100% better than last year.

Last year, it was twice too long.

I said that twice too long.

Somewhere, it was twice too long.

But that seems pretty hopeful, I guess.

But for Christ's sake, it's not awesome, or it's just a book.

I know.

That's all right.

That's his bidding.

That's done.

We'll get off of that when we're done with the important things.

Well, getting back to that subject of how you handle it, I think that maybe we have to...

I said, I don't think you can temporize with this up and down.

I really think it's not right.

We've gone through it before.

What happens is that we tamper on it.

It works out.

I don't mind living with somebody like Rose.

You know, she's been with us 20 years, and she's a woman for Christ's sakes.

You know, we do that with her, too.

But we learn with her, you know, it's better.

It's a hard sell, a lot of work, but it's a good job.

And when you play it tough with her, you kind of, that's what you're going to achieve.

We're all vouchers.

All country, right, roughshod over him, and he, you know, as he does his playing, he's being very, you know, he's taking everything past the communal and positive.

And one day, he just whacked her back, and he said, that was months ago, he said, it's all a problem for her.

And then, she just, she couldn't be nice to him, and he said, he said,

It's all kind of new cooperation.

We're supposed to be there in all that time.

They need some of that.

You just can't lie down and be walking with everybody else here.

You can't lie down and be walking with everybody else here.

Yes, sir.

That's what I call this.

Yeah, just taking it doesn't get you anywhere.

Well, it is a balance, and there are those who believe it's a mistake.

I never know why I'm answering that.

Rogers is in that category.

He doesn't ever believe it.

I'm just stating to be gentle and kind.

You don't develop any, you know, you don't develop any, you know, any, that sort of leads back to the strength of the system.

We've got to sometimes speak up and say something, or at least appear to be enough.

Basically, that was the AISNR approach, which I've never seen before.

And everybody loved it.

But at the end, very few of them even had a president.

Right.

Correct.

And in Trillman's case, very good, they had a lover.

Of course, that's not a ZV property.

Oh, yes.

He had it today.

He can't do that, but he had mistakes.

He was unique in two respects.

He was unique because he came in with a mystique, the great conqueror.

And, too, he had a hell of a personality, like a spiritual walker.

He was great.

He turned that charm on you.

You know, you had that view of the war today, like people were just, like, tight in his hands.

I don't mind.

It's certainly one good use of some kind.

But it really is the, well, it's one of the roles you gotta play on the basis you have to cover.

Yeah.

Okay.

Henry talked his head with him at this day.

Henry's working with Zachary.

I don't want Henry on this one.

I want to see it myself.

He'd probably have Henry when he sent it in.

I don't care who helpers him in it, but I just want culture.

We're going too far in that direction.

I don't have to call John Irwin every time I see a gaffer person or call someone.

I call all these guys on the phone.

I don't tell John every time.

I could call hard and thank him for some damn thing.

It's not substance.

I don't think, I think the problem is that Henry's got this obsessive idea that I cannot move, you know, or write anything and so forth without a query of the pen.

That cannot be, that's not the system.

That's not the way I'm going to write.

I've got several letters here that I've turned down.

John's got a different ability to control his area because he don't have problems.

John, please.

That doesn't suit all of the meaning of the story.

It's awful.

He lied.

He did that.

He's a bitch and a man.

Christ, man.

He's gone through it time and again and hurt the bitches.

It is awful.

It's a question.

That's where I'm going, all right?

I'll hang up on him.

He doesn't bullshit me.

He says, well, he leaves the country.

No, he doesn't.

He gets it out.

If he doesn't talk, he's completely done it.

And it gets to him.

I can get it out of him in five minutes.

It's really true.

I call him.

I call him about five minutes late at night.

He has also got to learn to have

He's got to use his snatch so that I can go to him.

And I have to have direct contact with the chairman of the Trump Chiefs.

I can't come in.

I called hard the night before last week before.

I should have been any cops in that building.

But I think that on the whole thing, you want to have him to call up and ask him to call or something.

I don't want him to do that.

But I don't want him to do the briefing.

I just want to hear myself.

I don't care if he's saying that.

I just want to know if he's saying that.

Put him on the spot.

Let him do the briefing.

No, I would just tell him to stay out of the briefing.

He said the president just wants to sit here by himself.

This must be straight and out of reason without any editorial comment.

That's good to see.

We could get him over the hill a little bit.

Does that work?

That would be great.

And that was what we brought.

The boat in the air, I don't care how empty it is, right?

See, the boat is free all the time.

There we go.

All right, she's not dead.

No, no, you are.

But he would like to have a vote to come over and give him a briefing if he could come over now.

So I'm gonna check and see if he's available.

Okay.

What?

Yeah, he wants you to stay on the stage.

Because he's waiting for that, that's, he wants to do the briefing now while he's waiting for the speech, but SACAR is holding up, apparently, doing the revises.

Every report comes back in.

I don't see speeches from there.

Is he working on the speech?

No.

Well that's one of the reasons I have some trouble.

I have to wait for him to answer.

He is not wasting my time.

He has cleared everything.

He's gone over to SACR and SACR are back working on it.

And so he's not voting on it.

So he'll send a vote over and he's saying, does he not want me to sit in?

I said, no, I don't want this to be here.

Why don't you give the speech?

And he's waiting for that while he's waiting to receive the vote.

He said to me, he doesn't want me to sit in freedom.

And he didn't like it.

What was the trouble?

He feels he has to sit in it every time he's seen anybody?

No.

Yeah, except for some of the pastors.

No, but I mean, I've got to see some of these things separately.

You've got these, I don't know,

Well, I think you got to, you know, you got to do it the way you want to do it.

The reason that I can do a better one, I can't do any better.

Because you'll get it, you know, I'm trying to be there, I'll get you there for a while.

I don't want to hear a vote.

Not that reason.

Also, I want to build this up.

that if he, does he have, is he gonna work on the speech or what is he gonna do now?

He said he's covered his name with satellite.

He's just got those finishing it up on the basis of that input.

And uh...

But at the same time, I've got a lot more additional business to run.

I've got that crazy business of building these.

You may not know what I'm talking about.

Oh, good.

And as soon as he's free, I'll let you...

When will he be free?

Should be within...

I didn't want to put him on until he's taken to the press, because that would have been not as simple.

Well, Stafford is going to be ready at 1.30.

Just wait.

Wait on it now.

I'll actually call him later.

As soon as Stafford comes back, he's...

Under my own draft, I'll start working on that, actually, as long as it takes time.

But as soon as you finish this out, all right?

Yeah.

I know what you mean.

So you're all through with the speech?

Well, I haven't seen it.

I've given him my ideas, and he's now denying it.

And I'll take a look at it when he gets through it.

But before it comes in, I want to see it as my own draft before I start working on it.

Because if you get it as my own idea, then I won't see both now, and I'll wait until I finish speaking about it.

So I'll get you by the second.

Yes, sir.

When we go to Jack Rogers, as he was over at Walker Street, he cannot be concerned about that.

He was, as he was.

I didn't get that thing at all.

He cannot be concerned about the, as I will, I've been hilarious sometimes talking to him.

I have talked to him, and I cannot talk to him for ten or eight times.

Larry's got some legitimate peace here, Bob.

And God damn it, he just can't get it to you.

I got here.

And we cannot be concerned.

I hope that my arm is hurting him, but I cannot have that sit there and not have him.

And he told me what he thinks of Larry.

And Larry's going to tell me what he thinks of him.

I think that's the problem.

The problem is he got there.

And this gets to that.

I won't let it go around there, because it doesn't matter.

The difference there is that Larry is a department head.

working in his own interest, whereas Henry, at least theoretically, has .

I don't think that Laird can run anything like he likes.

He wrote a job earlier this afternoon in here that Laird might talk to him about considering a property review.

And he says, please, do not do appointments in the board.

Of course I will.

I won't let Laird pull a trick like that.

I'm not going to get involved in it.

I don't like the option.

But the same, I'm not a partner to you or his clients.

The same is true for your attorneys.

He doesn't have to be in every goddamn time.

Sometimes the candid guy's got to be in so that he can talk directly.

Sure.

He's got to do it, Bob.

He's got to feel he can talk directly.

He's got to feel free.

Sometimes I see Mitchell all the time.

I don't see you with Mitchell every time.

Mitchell's got to feel that everybody's inhibited.

Yeah, and Henry's just got to learn that that is the way the system's been operating, or that's the way he can operate it.

Is there, on that, would be, and John would be dissenting, that then, to the degree, to the degree that you have direct communication with Captain Oscar or anybody else outside, without staff participation, you've got to take on yourself the deeming

the handling of whatever problem or issue arises with that thing, rather than having staff handle it.

Obviously, we're talking about something to do with this type of thing without talking about something else.

I'm not talking about operations at all.

I'm talking about discussion.

He had the right ideas.

That's all.

But if you get into it,

Now I agree with you, but then I've got to have Rogers give me his ideas.

My committee, Rogers should give me his ideas with John, with Henry there.

And that's what's wrong on that side.

Just as he should be perfectly willing to shoot, as I was saying to him, any substantive thing into Henry.

I mean, once it's done, there's only once a decision is made.

Because the problem we've got is the cabin crew should not view the staff guy as an adversary, and that's where John, and that is what I want to talk to you about, you know, because I mean, let me explain what I want to do.

I'm going to sit down, too, but what is your assessment of the minutes?

What are you going to do next?

Now, Henry is not allowed to listen to that because Henry is a party leader in another way.

So then I'm going to be excited to make these policies being, when we get to any kind of decision, then let me get Henry in.

You know, Bill said, oh, I don't think so, that is all that difficult, or I think that Mrs. Meyer, they blow off, or I don't think she is, or I think this is that, or the other thing, and so forth and so on.

I said, well, I'm glad, but that's the kind of conversation I need to have.

It's the kind of conversation I need, I have more of, I guess.

I said, how do you think, how do they find you?

He said, I don't know.

So, the main thing is that you didn't tell them to walk here, do that, or the other thing.

Not one thing, the other thing.

But I got ahead of that direction.

In a way, it's like this business of, as I said, it was a study of energy, of peace.

that have a really big crusade and then just write the whole continent or maybe a hundred other names.

You know what I mean?

We don't need that just meant word.

And I think people don't think, they think that would be summarized like that way.

Just send it in and say, I see.

The way you did it earlier doesn't much matter.

Earlier when you sent it out.

You read this text and you have to read this here.

Or don't read it.

Or, or you have something to share here.

It's not a theory, it's summarized.

It says this, that, and that.

You do not have to read this.

I would have suggested you read it.

All right, 367.

That hand does it.

What Henry does, you just have to realize that it's not right.

It's not right.

It also isn't very kind of people sometimes.

He sends everything in here.

like that, these papers have come in.

I said, this was from the NSC staff.

It's their idea.

He doesn't send them in.

It's your only option.

It isn't true.

I mean, I have a problem many times with some of the stuff that's written in.

The State Department does do some good work.

You said 80% of the time.

What do you want me to say?

The State Department has sent over a good paper.

I suggest you read it.

Or the attack state figure out and then you do something so I can encourage you to tell me what your vision is.

Instead of recapping the state figure.

Whatever, I'll tell you the truth.

I'll do the right thing.

Ross is there, he just came in to me right during week five, until I got here.

That came through me, and through this, and that's the thing, but he didn't, usually he'll notice that and he attaches his feet to me there, just even on that, since we have, it's also a driver that there's, I didn't know that, that may not have gone through Henry, but he seemed to be a sign, it can't happen, people don't do this stuff, but right here, I said Ross is there, and that's fine, I just checked, okay.

But it was directly the rockers.

That's, see that's what I said in the middle, that came from us to the end, I see.

Because they're, they were looking very rocky and all, some good folks were in there.

I just don't want us to make work.

I don't want him to do, I don't want him to do, he's got a bunch of generic voice box.

He's got to get it where it's due now.

You know, if they present something good on them, he's got to come in here that way.

I think one way we're going to do it too, I think I'm going to hand it to you tomorrow.

I'm just going to hand it in here, and just let them rub off on each other.

I think Cosby will speak up for a very short while.

I think he'll see he'll be horrified by some of these old men picking crappy stuff.

I'm actually going to hand it to you tomorrow.

The small group, Connelly, Mitchell, Larry Rodgers, Marcello More Marcello I think I just saw the bullpen, you can see that's, it has a dirty run in it

We were waiting for this draft.

Saturday or Sunday, we were checking.

A few friends said we had to go in and I'll talk to them.

That's why we did it.

I don't believe it had to be him.

The other thing is, the first two bodies you know, it's really a bribe that Henry is, that does have this, this, I think it's Jewish, you know, that...

What are you trying to broker here?

You got that.

I'm going to call him and all that stuff.

That's not what we understand.

I don't like it.

It's very sick.

But it does irritate fractures.

You never hear ill and all that stuff.

You get on the phone and say, oh, hello, Mr. President, or something like that.

When I call him, we know what energy is.

He's got somebody to rule.

Yeah, it's like that.

It's good to do that.

I know exactly what he ought to do.

He's got to be right in here.

Where the important plays are made, that's the ones he should concentrate on.

Those are the ones that are important.

He should get to have a lot of them.

Hope does come in, but I wish this detector could count that time objection to that.

This is good.

What is it, if you say that there's got to be a retargeting with a catamuster, how do I see Roger Duvall if he wants to talk to me?

You don't see him?

Except so, I don't know.

I'm not writing anything.

You've got to see him.

You should.

How about Larry?

That's it.

Larry, I don't think there's any catamuster.

You've got to see them suck.

They laugh very much.

I heard it.

I know.

And I think they've got it better.

The point there is that they've got to use the time.

Well, I mean, they basically do lower ranges of time, so on and so forth.

And Larry shares some of that.

If they would use the time a lot longer, Mitchell isn't going to be too long to try and slip anything.

But never, he says, off-topic or off-topic.

Yeah.

Or off-topic or off-topic.

In total disagreement.

He never, and even if he decides to erase it, and wants to erase it directly with you, and does, he'll come back out and say, I don't know, I'm talking to the president.

But you don't want to get in a position where you're the judge, the staff, the captain.

That's what you're, what the staff's there for.

I would never have that problem.

I'm just, uh, the problem is that he, goddammit, does miscreant.

That's the difference.

I need you to go out and recognize him.

And he had a lot of this, a lot of this.

It's my turn.

But earlier this year, I had both of them cleared.

And he's ruffling again.

I should have gotten him.

I wish the man was washed.

And he's on us.

But Henry, he mistreats them in a way that, uh, you know, some of them can be used.

And I think this is a very good introduction of, uh,

You can't protect us, you can't talk to us, you can't do what you can't do.

Now do you understand?

We cannot do this.

Yeah.

I feel it.

Very nice.

Let's go.

We draw together our .

Not all of them, yeah.

Not all of them.

Too many.

Not all of them.

Too many.

I don't think so.

No, that may be one.

It's all right.

I suppose he's doing it.

He's supposedly just overloading.

That's right.

That's not a word.

I think that, yeah.

All right.

All right, Bill.

Buster.

Is that bird?

Yeah.

I wonder if it would not be well if we could have a little of a church and a door and a...

I don't think at the present time that Ziegler is getting...

They're not titans.

He just has to walk a tightrope.

And Dole, of course, is right.

They've taken several positions.

Husky said, get out by the end of 72.

The Democrats say, let's get out by the end of 73.

And so you've got Dole, Scott, all the Republicans.

You've got some of our friends on the Democratic side.

How do you exploit the difference in the center?

How do you exploit them?

And also, how do you put them on the spot?

I sort of want to mention to you here, you see, the Airmen is being careful not to get out too far in the landing cover next to the withdrawal.

If he gets booed a little more, some of the Democrats go all out, why not immediately?

And on the other hand, says don't tie the President's hands.

And must be said to do it for the N72, but where could that be done if we set up a little

Who else should be in on that?

I mean, Henry should be in on that.

He should sit at the, you know, the...

I don't think he should make the decision.

I think another one who's in judgment would be very good on that would be Rogers.

Rogers would be...

I would not have him sit in a mass meeting, but you, you might ask him for, let's get his views as to what, how he thinks we ought to handle it.

Laird's views as to how to handle it.

In other words, how do we, how do we posture ourselves as we continue our withdrawals against Democrats?

Riders tend to be rather soft on them, saying, well, we're doing it anyway, which is the man's field line.

I'm not sure.

Well, I just wonder, for example, I just wonder if it's wise for us to make the line that it's all perfectly all right with the Democratic caucus.

Basically, the real fundamental point is this, whether or not

We accept what the Democratic caucus says coming out at the end of 73, saying, well, we don't judge that, or we don't consider that bad when I say accepted, or whether we miss on it, having in mind the fact that there are about 10 to 13 Democrats who oppose that point of view, see, the hardline Democrats.

So we would be, in effect, joining with the softliners, and they're playing the line here.

See, we may be playing it.

With, uh, that's the first thing we got around here.

Uh, Doe began it.

Now, say you're over there with Doe.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm closing for action.

Now, uh, Roger's views will be important.

Those, I think I would go to Rogers and learn separately and independently.

You could say that's what they're telling me.

We've got lots of questions.

What lines do you think you'd have?

Would you do that from a political view?

To tell you it's a pure political question.

We all know what we're going to do.

How should we handle this?

And not substantively, not how do you suggest that it be handled?

Where does it maybe ought to be in this?

Yeah, I agree.

That's good, that's enough.

And hammer, of course.

But why don't you get it from Rogers and Laird, how they think it fell.

I would be interested in how they think it ought to be handled, how Ron should posture himself.

To see, if we come to the press thing next week, that will be a question that will be inevitable.

In fact, it's starting to develop our thinking now, so that we can, if it's time for them to develop a topic, let's say, 48 hours before, yeah.

In the meantime, it seems to me that if they could develop a line,

Maybe some of the guys want to start pissing on it right away.

Is that my point?

I mean, I know this will take some sort of time, but I wonder if we don't need a procedure, Bob, where the guys do sit down and say, what's the level by the day?

Do we have that already?

That's exactly what they did.

That's on the master side.

I know we have a lot of this.

This is kind of the end.

They don't do it on a regular basis.

They do it as things hit and you've got it.

The problem is it takes too long.

Yeah, that's my point.

You see, it was at a news summary this morning, and I know Stuhl had a quick reaction.

And I think you'd get on the phone and get on to some of the people that you're on here from Laird and say, how do you think it ought to be handled?

This particular thing there, what sort of thing?

I just, the only thing we've done today is sit here and just say that I'm not going to comment on partisan, you know, partisan.

And this is where we have the world.

It's pretty cheap stuff, right?

And I think that's what you should tell the Rockies, as far as I'm concerned.

They say the end of the 73, but I don't want us to say we're going to be out by the end of the 73.

We are.

Everybody knows that.

They said they're running, except for the prisoners.

Because they're going to do everything, including air.

We are.

We're willing to get everything out.

If they get us to prison, if she gets us to prison.

And they, as has been pointed out, they don't, they say prisoners too, but they don't say how.

But the withdrawals, they go on that blind faith thing, that we withdraw our troops, don't let our prisoners go, which is, you know, one tangential thing.

They should be hit harder than prisoners.

This does not, there cannot be, American forces must be maintained until we get our prisoners.

So if somebody don't hit them on that, this resolution sells the prisoners down.

You might get a line in the room.

We may find some other jacks taking it on a bit.

They must have had a hell of a time.

How much do you think they're going to have on their campus?

Well, they're having, you know, some in the sense that they gave some people to come to the meetings, but they haven't stirred anything up.

They've already had a split on, you know, they were trying to put this plan together for the Washington Post on May 1st.

One faction is still not doing it, and other factions said they won't.

The SDS or somebody said they were one of the leaders, so they pulled out of it.

Bob spoke to me yesterday and said that he thought I had received a wire from John yesterday from President Schumann and his family.

He should be trying to see what it is about.

It's the way that these very low budget 30 inches from abroad come in and make money.

Call me.

I mean, I'd be curious, you know, hope it costs $30,000 and pays $15 million.

You know, Hollywood actors are unemployed.

I'd like to have somebody with some kind of go-go guy get into this thing about the dirty pictures.

You know, see if we can stop it in that.

I mean, we've had some support from the Motion Picture Academy.

It's just so horrible now, though.

The domestic pictures there are.

It is.

You can't look at it.

I'm sorry to get my movie.

It was unbelievable.

You know, we saw her the other night.

She said she was embarrassed.

I'm taking the kids to the movie.

That's what she said.

Bob also mentioned that, hey, believe me, I do not care.

It's in California.

I just want you to know that.

Sky Center Hospital?

Yeah.

Hey, what I might do is, uh...

If you work on this, then I'm telling you, you will not have any.

I'll work on the speech in a second.

Maybe at 5 o'clock in a second.

We can have a vote come in.

You can come too.

I can come if you want to.

Vote too.

If you just want to agree.

The board is not here to see.

But don't heal me.

You said I could be proud of you.

I don't want to make a big thing about it.