Nixon White House Tapes ›Tape 458 › Conversation 458-009
Nixon, Rose & Sanchez on Wills and Estates and Elmer Bobst
Thursday, February 25, 1971 · 4:42 PM–5:05 PM ET · Oval Office ·23 min
AI Summary
President Nixon met with his former law partner Milton C. Rose to discuss private legal and personal matters, specifically the wills of Elmer and Momdouha Bobst. They reviewed executor arrangements for the Bobsts' estates and the future activation of the Elmer and Momdouha Bobst Foundation, ensuring that Nixon's role as a potential director would not create conflicts or adverse publicity. Additionally, the pair discussed the status of their former law firm, Mudge, Rose, Guthrie & Alexander, potential advisory roles for Elmer Bobst regarding national cancer research initiatives, and scheduling for upcoming White House events.
- Wills and Estates
- Elmer Bobst
- Mudge, Rose, Guthrie & Alexander
- Nixon Foundation
- Cancer research
- White House ceremonies
Audio
Transcript (AI-generated)
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Sit down.
Sit down.
Sit down.
Sit down.
Crazy governor in Wisconsin said he was going to not provide good business to the firm.
Why, that's not a bitch.
The whole point is that we have absolutely, if you need to mention where I have any interest, whatever, in the firm, you know what I mean.
Isn't that ridiculous?
But you're not involved.
It's balanced.
Is that right?
That's it.
Who are the, who are here now?
Who do you have now as the heads of the firm?
Have you had anybody?
Dick Ritzel.
Oh, Ritzel then.
You have Ritzel, another at Rose.
Yeah.
That's right.
Obviously, he's losing weight.
He died one day.
He loves.
He loves Obama always.
And you know what he does, which is bad either, is he'll go on a crash and die and lose about 40 pounds.
And then in the next month, he'll be all right.
He can't do anything about it.
He lives and he loves a good life.
And life's a good thing.
I had breakfast with him this morning at the Carlisle.
No, it was with Bob.
He ate enough for all day.
Yeah, I think you have it there.
Well, how many people do you have?
Oh, gosh.
I think there's 110, maybe, lawyers.
Every desk is taken, except your old desk.
I don't know.
It's been locked up and used for special reception.
It's been very usable.
Boy, I knew something about this tonight.
I was worried about tonight.
I knew there was something in the will that had to do with the sectors.
I didn't have to do that.
I didn't have to change.
Well, I don't think it actually need be changed.
But this is the position.
Do you prefer tea or coffee?
I take tea.
I take tea.
You're not a... Well, sure, we can talk about that.
The will has now gone.
In this respect, it's not going to change by the end of the years, from the time you were there.
That's right.
It leaves legacies, cash legacies, to you and me.
We're appointed individual executors, along with Dodo, and the Irving Trust is the corporate executor with us.
He really just acts, of course, under any circumstances.
Yeah.
And Al Grissel, he dropped out.
I don't know for the life of me whether he ever spoke to Al, whether or not he was involved in some legacy in his ass.
I can see why he would, though.
He lost to him.
Oh, yeah.
And he's just... And I'm sorry, he's not locked around.
I hope they can sit and tell us about it.
Yes, he has.
Now, what I wanted to say to you is that I recognize that without any change in the will, if something happens, I don't know why you're in the line, but you can't act, you can't qualify as a saint.
That's probably never happened.
Is that daring to say that?
No, no, no.
That's my knowledge.
But you couldn't do it.
But on the other hand, I think Elmer may have lived so long.
I agree.
Oh, he's going to do it.
I think that he would be very disappointed if he felt I hadn't taken out.
The main thing is that this is the way, if I understand it, and also sort of makes him feel that we're thinking maybe he might die first.
I do.
So you don't want to leave that attorney.
So let me ask you about the lawyers.
Does the law provide that in the event that he should die while there's an office, then you just go into court and say because of the... You sign a simple paper saying you were not qualified.
Good.
And after that's all.
and your legacy would stand, and I take that that would be embarrassing.
You could have, of course, get publicity because the will would be filed.
But I don't see anything proper, and I don't approach it in that, and I...
The legacy is not set in, it is not stated in lieu of fees or anything.
No, no, that was last day, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm going, I'm prepared to be a little backwards on that, but you see, knowing that you can't,
qualified here in the office, and giving that back to him is a very difficult case to deal with.
I don't think she's expected that.
I see.
No doubt.
I don't see no embarrassment at all.
Now, another point, which I'm sure you were aware of, whether you recollected or not, he has left a legacy to your foundation in this bill.
No, I didn't know that.
No, I didn't know that either.
Yeah, the next time I'm ready.
Oh, that's nice, huh?
Right.
Right.
Money in dodo's, Will.
She, too, and she'd be even more sensitive than Elmer, as you know.
And she's hero is much simpler, of course, except that if she survives him, then it's an important estate.
She has named you and me as executors.
She provided that neither one of us qualify.
That one of us has to qualify, and the other can't select any executive.
Now, most important of all, and this is what I would like to say, one of the things we're going to have a chance to talk about, is that in Elmer's will now, he set up, he has named,
A foundation?
A foundation called the Elmer and Mandua Post Foundation.
It's incorporated under the laws of New York.
It's inactive, it has no assets to speak of, and it will only become activated upon his death.
He will then receive a very large legacy.
There's a strong mistake between the five and six million dollars based on personal values.
And if Dodo shouldn't survive, no, that's his problem.
When she dies, the Foundation gets an even larger legacy,
which is virtually all that he needs to earn, so that the foundation will be a foundation of some importance.
Now, the present person's name, R. Elmer, of course, the foundation committee, in fact, they will no longer
the active himself, Dodo, you and me.
That's the way he wants it.
And that will be expanded and changed in the later stage.
And that's the way Dodo definitely wants it.
Now, I don't know, even if you were in office when the foundation became active, it wouldn't
prevent your remaining as a director without activity.
I mean, you don't have to attend meetings.
And there isn't going to be.
There aren't any meetings.
Now, we're going to have to have them on the street, which I'll get to in just a minute.
And I don't see any press that we need.
of your concerning yourself with the fact that you are both a founder and a director of that foundation.
It's going to be completely in that.
That only happens when he's dead.
That's right.
As long as he's alive, he's going to have no money.
That's right.
Let's just leave it alone.
I need to leave it alone.
We have to take a look now.
We can't leave it holding at all.
Well, the tax reform and the amendment of the non-profit corporation law in New York
requires us to amend our bylaws and our certificate of incorporation.
We want to hold a meeting to explain how Murdoch or Bannon wanted to do that.
It does not require your participation or presence.
I brought a waiver of notice, which is just the usual reform in the event that you would like to strike, because that simply
What we do is never meet with a quarrel.
No, there's no one who knows that the meeting was being held.
Good.
Fine.
That does it.
et cetera, et cetera, they could go above Elmer.
And I think so it's important just to keep quiet.
Now, the only thing that I can't keep quiet is Elmer.
Elmer talking.
Now, I guess the point is that, well, I think the way he did it,
I expected you to live as long as you could in this office.
Just throw it off like that.
You realize that in six years' time, he'll be 92.
He's going to still be living.
How did he live?
He's a wonderful person.
Has he had any more of the .
I don't think so.
That was not what he needed.
He was just revved up.
I think he was revved up to some extent.
I think he was proud of Dodo's performance.
Yeah.
Well, you guys started to point out the scariness at that point.
Sure.
You know, he just dropped his head.
Yeah.
But he's an amazing man.
Emily and I were with Dodo and Elmer now.
I met you a couple of weeks ago.
And we had lunch one Sunday.
So the last day we saw him at the Everquakes Club, and he was coming to New York the next day, I thought, for a business meeting.
But he came up for minor surgery, to be short.
It was the removal of a nodule in his throat that had been bothering him.
And back he came all along the next day.
Oh, when you see him, one thing you might ask, I have, I just naturally don't just have the opportunity to talk and see the people, but sometimes you are talking to a device that
You know, we have this $100 million donation to cancer.
Yes, yes.
And there might be, there might be some, I haven't thought of it, but there must be an advisory group that we could put over on cancer.
He's a great expert.
Well, he already is.
He was president of the American Cancer Society for some years.
Would he like that too?
He would.
You see, he could be a, he could be a conventional, I don't know, he could be a fox or something.
I'm just sitting here talking to you, and I talk about it, and we were going to ask you that I don't know what it is, but I don't get it.
I haven't thought of the line, but we'll find some way to take it.
You know, because I said, you know, we don't want to run you away.
Research.
I didn't get the advice with me on it.
Oh, he's smart.
That's right.
That dollar is so smart, and he sees through people so well.
He's a great judge of people.
Yes, he is.
Does he, uh, does he, uh, did he ever come up again in the spring to his apartment or the spring land, the spring land?
Well, I didn't go to the spring land.
He'll come up, but, uh, to the end of next month at the end of March.
Let's say much in April, sometimes a week or two.
It's quite cloudy there.
Yeah.
I, I would say in April, April, maybe.
You just told us that, that you've seen this new wind that he endured over the summer.
He wants us to come back.
It's impossible to do so.
I agree with you.
It's impossible.
We have to be nervous.
We have to see both communications and secret service.
So we can never stay in the private house again.
Not possible.
A lot of people don't understand.
Secret service.
No, at the very minimum.
And as a communicator, if they've got to put in telephones, it's a huge operation.
We stayed out the other day.
We went over there the only time we met, and I cried about some telepathic signs.
I don't know what you could tell.
It was when they were out of Rockefeller's place.
And you know, they, my God, they had a blue and terrible eye.
And I felt embarrassed.
They had a whole place full of telephones and so forth and so on.
Well, people don't appreciate that, and they think that you actually have patented them, especially when you get into art.
You know what I'm saying?
Well, you still have art.
Yeah.
Yes, we do.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I'll tell you who I saw, the Green Stand manager.
Oh, he's funny.
Yeah.
He was the, he's not the old man.
You didn't see the old man.
I was just wondering.
This is Bill.
Bill.
Bill, his son.
He was here.
Yeah.
He mentioned the fact that we had seen him up there.
Yeah.
He was there for some meeting.
He came for that reception we had the first time.
Yeah.
Meeting the business leaders, who was what it was, and he was there.
My friend, Mrs. Blodgett always asks that.
You know, she's the only woman that has a sub-master.
She is.
Now, she's about 80.
Those are 30 people there.
And, uh, they're very honest.
Did you still go to the lakes, too?
Yeah, we did.
Yeah?
Yeah, on the last one, we saw you both, and we would have been reaching distance of you, but you didn't see us at that 10th anniversary, remember?
Oh.
We were up in the air for that anniversary.
I remember it was hotter.
Yeah, it was.
It was hot.
Really?
It was a nice celebration.
We had to do it.
We were at the sea lake.
It was 12, everybody at home.
Do it for a bride.
Oh, he referred to his wife.
Yeah, Nelson was just here yesterday, a day before yesterday for the government's conference.
Well, I'm glad everything is going well.
The firm is doing well.
The entertainment is doing well.
That's why you ought to serve with me.
And I got him to have both Mitchell and me out of there.
And, of course, Armand.
Armand had only got three people out of that firm, three partners out of that firm.
I haven't seen that person yet.
Yes, he's doing very well.
He handles mainly, I think.
He particularly works with minority groups and also with artists.
There's more, though, of minority groups than there is of civil rights groups.
civil rights, civil rights, and Mike is not.
There's going to be, incidentally, a very nice ceremony tomorrow, which Mike will be going to.
The Addams Parties are going to be given.
The Addams Family would never give their, and there are very few really originals in the White House, but the Addams Family would never give their
at this time that had worked on it.
So they're going to give these great originals to the Addams, who were the first residents of the Wilds, of course.
First people ever to live on after Abigail.
Yes, yes.
So they're going to be here a great portion of our peace workers in the Wilds.
You've got a fine portrait of the king from the length straight of the road.
The length of the road is about a length straight from here.
You know, we have in the Helmer's Trust, we have Magazine Antiques as one of our assets, and Wendell Garrigan's going to become head of your chief next year as the great authority of the house.
You, of course, you were very interested in our chief.
Yeah.
You really are an expert.
You really are an expert.
You ought to come down if you'd like to see it at Adam's Second March, the way you've noticed for a trip.
It's going to be at 3 o'clock tomorrow.
Quite a noob.
I'd like to see it sometime.
Yeah.
Last night we were here.
Time's too short for me to really take him on.
Yeah.
Well, sometime that'll be at 3.30.
And then we have a, she also has an adult, an adult Madison original now.
It's here by the Pennsylvania Society.
They've got a few, a few good things here.
And of course the new Kennedy portraits are here now.
Yes, I saw those in the paper.
I'm not particularly...
I think yours is too much stuff.
Is that the word?
I just thought it was a little too way out.
She didn't like it either.
She was here.
I always remember the fortune that Andrew Watt's son did.
Oh, yeah.
And now he's back.
He's squarely away from it.
And you know that picture of Chris and Kennedy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know, that took place yesterday in the lead department.
That's all.
Hold it.
Now, let's see.
Let's see.
I'll tell you.
You know, Kendall, I see you golf.
Are you still at work, Kendall?
Yes, sir.
.
.
.
.
Where do you have your...
We don't, we don't do that.
Well, everybody's, people are away so much.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
NARA Description
On February 25, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Milton C. Rose, Manolo Sanchez, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:42 pm to 5:05 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 458-009 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 458-009 Date: February 25, 1971 Time: 4:42 pm - 5:05 pm Location: Oval Office The President met with Milton C. Rose ****************************************************************************** [Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 04/16/2019. Segment cleared for release.] [Personal Returnable] [458-009-w001] [Duration: 12m 22s] Greetings Page | 10 White House Tapes of the Nixon Administration, 1971-1973 Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542 Patrick J. Lucey -President’s opinion -Business for Mudge, Rose, Guthrie, & Alexander -President and John N. Mitchell’s interest in firm Mudge, Rose, Guthrie & Alexander -Richard S. Ritzel -Addition to firm Milton C. Rose’s health Robert Guthrie -Crash diets -Lifestyle -Similarity to Richard S. Ritzel -Milton C. Rose’s recent breakfast with Robert Guthrie -Size of breakfast -Law firm -Employees -The President's old office Elmer H. Bobst and Momdouha (As-Sayyid) (“Dodo”) Bobst's wills -Executors -Need to be changed Manolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 4:34 pm Refreshments -Tea Sanchez left at an unknown time before 5:05 pm Elmer H. Bobst and Momdouha (As-Sayyid) (“Dodo”) Bobst's wills -Cash legacies -To President and Milton C. Rose -Executors -President, Milton C. Rose and Momdouha (As-Sayyid) (“Dodo”) Bobst -[unknown first name] Irving trust Page | 11 White House Tapes of the Nixon Administration, 1971-1973 Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542 -Corporate executor -Alfred E. Driscoll -Executor -Elmer H. Bobst -Potential long life -Instructions -Legal points -Conditions of will -President’s legacy -Publicity -Potential embarrassment -Legacy to Nixon Foundation -Momdouha (As-Sayyid) (“Dodo”) Bobst’s will -Surviving spouse -Named President and Milton C. Rose as executors -Elmer H. Bobst and Momdouha (As-Sayyid) (“Dodo”) Bobst’s Foundation -Structure -Incorporated under laws of New York -Active upon Elmer H. Bobst’s death -Legacy upon Momdouha (As-Sayyid) (“Dodo”) Bobst’s death -The President's involvement -Potential role as director -Nonprofit corporation law in New York -Amendment of by-laws -The President’s involvement -Waivers -Quorum -Publicity -President’s meeting with [first unknown name] Salvatore [?] -Potential questions about Foundation -Press attention on Elmer H. Bobst -Momdouha (As-Sayyid) (“Dodo”) Bobst performance -President’s previous conversation with Elmer H. Bobst Elmer H. Bobst -Health -President’s opinion -Milton C. Rose’s previous visit -Early February 1971 Page | 12 White House Tapes of the Nixon Administration, 1971-1973 Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542 -Palm Beach -Lunch -Elmer H. Bobst’s trip to New York -Throat surgery ****************************************************************************** Cancer program -Administration’s program -Elmer H. Bobst -Possible appointment -Research -Bobst -The President’s schedule -Possible visit -Communications -United States’ Secret Service -Previous visit to Nelson A. Rockefeller’s house -Logistics ****************************************************************************** [Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 04/16/2019. Segment cleared for release.] [Personal Returnable] [458-009-w002] [Duration: 1m 57s] Bill Tynan -Recent visit to White House -Reception -Business leaders Milton C. Rose’s friend Mrs. [first unknown name] Rogers [?] -Asked after President Milton C. Rose’s visits to unnamed lakes [Finger Lakes?] Page | 13 White House Tapes of the Nixon Administration, 1971-1973 Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542 -Encounter with President -Tenth anniversary of unnamed event -Heat Nelson A. Rockefeller -Margaretta (Fitler) (“Happy”) Rockefeller -President’s previous assistance -Visit to the White House February 23 1971 -Governors’ conference President’s departure from Mudge, Rose, Guthrie & Alexander -John N. Mitchell ****************************************************************************** Personnel -Leonard Garment -Role -Minorities -Arts -Civil rights Forthcoming White House ceremony -John Quincy Adams’ portrait -Thelma C. (Ryan) (“Pat”) Nixon’s role -Attendees -Descendants of Adams -Presentation -James Monroe’s portrait ****************************************************************************** [Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 04/16/2019. Segment cleared for release.] [Personal Returnable] [458-009-w003] [Duration: 26s] Page | 14 White House Tapes of the Nixon Administration, 1971-1973 Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542 Elmer H. Bobst’s trust -Assets -Antiques magazine -Wendell Garrett -Editor-in-chief Milton C. Rose -Interest in art ****************************************************************************** Forthcoming White House ceremony -Rose’s possible attendance -Rose’s previous visit White House portraits -Dolley P. T. Madison -John F. Kennedy -Jacqueline Lee Bouvier Kennedy Onassis -Kennedy -Andrew Wyeth Stephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 4:34 pm The President’s schedule -Invitation to Rose -White House ceremony Bull left at an unknown time before 5:05 pm Rose’s schedule Presentation of gifts by the President -Donald McI. Kendall [General conversation] Page | 15 White House Tapes of the Nixon Administration, 1971-1973 Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542 Rose left at 5:05 pm
Also recorded on February 25, 1971
- 458-003 3:28 PM · 33 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:28 pm to 3:35 pm.
- 458-004 3:35 PM · 12 min — President Richard M. Nixon, George Renercomb, Thomas S. Kleppe, Glenda L. (Gompf) Kleppe, Jill Kleppe, Jane Kleppe, Gladys Anderson, Ruth Edick, Anthony G. Chase, Arthur H. Singer, Marshall J. Parker, Jack Eachon, Jr., Arthur McZier, Howard Russell, Einar Johnson, Wilfred J. Gavin, John A. Knebel, Loren J. Rivard, Raymond E. Stull, Milton R. Young, Patricia M. (Burne) Young, Robert J. Dole, Silvio O. Conte, Joseph L. ("Joe") Evins, Christine Gallagher, Lucey Sharp, Dorothy A. Kabis, Magnus Lutnass, Rogers C. B. Morton, Clark MacGregor, and Maurice H. Stans met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:35 pm to 3:46 pm.
- 458-005 3:46 PM · 19 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Stephen B. Bull, Felipe Herrera, Charls E. Walker, Henry J. Costanzo, and Ashley Hewitt met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 3:46 pm and 4:05 pm.
- 458-006 4:05 PM · 37 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:05 pm and 4:07 pm.
- 458-007 4:07 PM · 28 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Joe D. Waggonner, Jr., Juanita Morris Moody, John C. Whitaker, Richard K. Cook, White House photographer, and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:07 pm to 4:34 pm.
- 458-008 4:34 PM · 8 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Dwight L. Chapin met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:34 pm and 4:42 pm.
- 458-010 5:05 PM · 38 min — President Richard M. Nixon, David M. Kennedy, Alexander M. Haig, Jr., White House photographer, Nellie L. Yates, Marjorie P. Acker, and Rose Mary Woods met in the Oval Office of the White House from 5:05 pm to 5:43 pm.
- 458-011 5:44 PM · 45 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Alexander P. Butterfield, and the White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House from 5:44 pm to 6:30 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 458-009, February 25, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/458-009 (accessed September 18, 2026).