Conversation 458-010

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Hello, Dave.

How are you?

This is Bill Gross, my, uh, my, uh, John and my law partner, you know, and a member, member of our firm, so those things, I mean, well, not all business, man.

I had a conversation the other day with a man that just got back from Indonesia.

He was an officer at the Rappaport Foundation, and he wasn't using his hands.

Oh, she's...

.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

It's a big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big,

You're not back.

You say that you felt that Bunker's schedule was too tight.

I don't think he did.

Did you see it?

I don't think that Bunker said it.

It may be my fault, because when he came in to see me, I told him about the trip, and I said I wanted you to be shown everything that you needed to see.

So you'll want to bounce around.

You'll want to see what Bunker's side is doing.

But what I really would like for you to get out of Vietnam or something else,

I really would like you to examine and talk about, in a sense, first you have to talk to our economic eyes.

They say they're pretty good.

Who is the man at school?

Cooper.

Quite good, yeah.

But I particularly would like to see it, with the line you said before, it will be hard.

But I'd like to get your evaluation.

of their understanding of their economic policy what we're really talking about is whether there is need in vietnam what i what may be see the next phase the next phase as we complete our withdrawal program next year

Then the next great battle is going to be the domestic battle, whether or not a nation at a time that they will continue to be having rebel activities, whether their economy can continue to move along and so forth.

Now, we're going to be hoping that the United

And if that question comes up, we can, as you hear, too, and all the rest, the United States will continue with whatever, as our control program includes, we intend to continue a very strong economic and military assistance program.

But the success of that program will depend on

dare to believe, to run their own affairs.

The Koreans have apparently developed such an ability.

You're not going to Korea.

All right.

Now, the question is whether the South Vietnamese can develop such an ability.

The question I have is whether or not we, having taken care of them so long and poured in so much money and the rest, whether we may have frankly blunted their ability to do it.

Now, what you, what I would like to have, we've had, I've had several people look into this.

I've had several people that have come back and said, well, the great problem is economic.

I know it's a problem.

But what we really want is an evaluation.

And then the question is whether or not there is a need for it.

Maybe an economic team, economic upgrading a

which will stay over a period of time, an economic advisory group, which I assume you would have, that the real question that I have is, what happens?

What happens to Vietnam's economy after the United States leaves military except for a small decisional force?

And that's the thing.

The cuter it gets, the better.

In other words, Dave, I'm more interested in the reason I need to do it.

I really am interested in your evaluation of the men and their abilities and whether, what you feel we can do to

or what we have to do.

Now, Bunker is a superb man.

He's a fine, big, superb man.

And he has some understanding of economics.

But he's basically a diplomat, a political man.

And, uh, we've got so much right here, I don't want to have us get out of Vietnam.

And after six years of sovereign, 45,000 Americans dead to have the dead, they go out of the trade because the economy blows up and the economists start a revolution again.

See?

I see.

Well, uh, Al, you've been out there.

Remember I asked you to do this tangent?

What would you have if you were the secretary of the opposition?

You see, he's got an opportunity to spend it.

What would you, who would you have him talk to?

He just talks to Americans.

You just get a straight patch out of it.

Yes, sir.

Well, I think I would get with Cooper's counterparts on the South Indian side, and they are, they're pretty frank, and they're very cautious.

Cooper's obvious to these people.

Yes, sir.

And they're definitely, you know, they've actually become the most impressive.

They have been reluctant to move.

He's pushed them in a very gradual way.

And there are elements here at home that would like to see it more drastically done.

That's one that we would like to know, whether or not, whether or not, you see, whether or not the South Vietnamese can stand a more drastic push.

In all fields, I've heard that we don't want to do anything to embarrass you.

We want you to win the election.

That's right.

So that's not going to happen before, no matter what.

But let's, after that, we're still going to be giving them a lot of dough.

the question is you know whether it's land or whether it's fighting inflation or whether it's corruption and you'll see a lot of that how fast how much the market will bear and give a give a give a i think i think you could have quite an influence frankly on some of the more eager leaders in the state department who frankly in my view want to push too fast you see

We want them to, we want Vietnam to become a self-sufficient, well-ordered society as soon as possible.

But you know very well, David, that running a free economy is damn hard.

Well, it's hard because you can't expect people like this to learn it overnight.

And I don't think we can push them too fast and expect too much.

to base their experience in Korea and some other countries, take a hard look and see whether they're pushing it fast or not pushing it fast, or what confidence do they have, and whether we need April people ourselves that are of the American, and I say American sign, not April, people with a different kind of experience.

Now, I have a lady, for example,

that, you know, we used to send, we sent people to Korea in those days who were, who were really quite good.

Henry Costner went to Korea, our ambassador.

He was awfully good.

I'm thinking of, just to get your name out of the hat, I'm hoping that you bring one, of a retired Chief Executive.

Berger Cross is retired as Chief Executive of Korea.

Now, Berger Cross,

it would seem to me, could probably do an awful good job.

And that kind of, maybe they don't mean it is what we need, but all that I do know is that more knowledge in this field is needed for our own deliberations.

I'm glad you have a lot of difference of views.

I'm going to read, oh, yes, environments.

There are differences.

Oh, Lord.

They have very strong feelings, and the corruption

comes into this whole truth.

It's all the customs people have been over there now.

I think you're, I think you're looking at people, looking at what can we do in the framework of a nation, what should be.

And I'll be in touch with the World Bank and the IMF also.

Also, another thing.

Why don't you, maybe we need a new approach.

Maybe we need a strong American figure there.

A stronger American figure.

I'm sure.

There's one thing about the Asians.

It's very interesting.

They have enormous respect for age.

They have markers this right on.

That's why marker goes well.

In other words, I think it's an asset.

Now, that's why I have in the back of my head, and it may be crazy, but when I saw Bert Ross the other day, I saw another one do it.

You know, a well-followed Bob Tyson, if you listen, these are able fellows.

We've got retired chief executive officers, or financial officers, all over who could, who could just, I mean, I think it's not a big job, Jim.

What?

Tyson.

Yeah.

I've asked him to do something.

We're going to send him over and try to get him to go over and negotiate some sort of agreement to do on radio.

It doesn't require technical competence.

It just requires a piece.

I have a great regard for him.

Don't you?

Oh, yes.

I've always thought that he should have been.

Yeah, Roger was sort of the front man, but Tyson was the hard-nosed guy running it.

But we're going to try to gradually work him back into something, because he's so... You know the thing that's amazing to me?

Here's a guy, he's six yards.

He's full of age.

He's good to sit up there.

That's the kind of guy that'll leave you all... Another thing about that is the...

I look around the world.

You know, you see lots of places where we Americans are dang good at running big business and so forth.

And I think that we could give enormously good advice to some of these people.

economic side.

Now, another thing you have to realize, the State Department, this gets to your longer range, the State Department, Dave, is damn weak on the economic side.

They will not do any work.

I'm not speaking to Sanders.

What I am speaking to is, and this is, if you talk to Maury, Maury Stanton, yes, well, as you know, it's his whole business of

Whether or not they should upgrade the commercial attachés, they should, because the economic hand is the lowest part of the light.

They will not admit it.

But it's true, they do not have the best people there.

We have got to find a way, and I would like for you, working on the inside, I'd like for you, if you can, to bring Bill and Alex Johnson,

around for the few, where on their own they will finally recognize that in the last third of this century, the major that we trust with the United States is economic planning.

And so let's get people that kind of did it with the Foreign Service mandate.

He's not a man, first of all, who is particularly skilled with economics.

He's usually a guy that isn't particularly for the private enterprise system.

By definition, you know that.

I know those people.

And also, he's not a guy who will go out there and fight for our people and for our private business.

He tends to be more, he tends to believe that doing things the government way is the best way.

Now, that is the best way.

And we've got too many of those guys around the world.

Now, I'm not referring to the anonymous respect.

I'd like to be able to look at the Indonesian guy on that respect.

See what the commercial does to that shit in Indonesia.

Is that maybe a good example?

Well, that's a very important area.

120 million people.

Now, we don't do much in Indonesia, but by golly, there's a good test.

I'd like for you to take a look at the guy and, you know, they all have nice manners.

They're talking good games.

But give them a good, a damn, something, and good ass.

Be one of them.

In Indonesia, talk to the American business community.

Is that on your list?

Talk to them.

Ask them.

Ask them privately.

We won't have them all out.

Don't make a speech to them.

Get a little bit of service to talk to them.

I've got a collaboration division.

Yeah, and what do they think?

Do they think we get upgraded and so forth?

And then they'll tell you.

The micro-nation, I mean,

It's a very dark, very dark, main event.

We cannot, there are people who feel that Micronesia should have self-determination and go gallivanting off.

Not in your life.

Now, we've got to give the appearance, that's what we believe.

Today, we've got to have Micronesia.

We need it for Jesus Christ.

So, we've got to blend there now.

What a, you're going to all those islands there.

I think you can tell the leaders, those local leaders, they were really good at it.

You could say we've been present, we've had long-term work variations in their future and so forth.

There must be a time.

Actually, I have a feeling that minor nations, and I don't know what they do, their best deal would be to align with Hawaii.

In other words, they'd be very well, but that, of course, is a,

I just want you to know, whatever you may have heard it stated, my view on Micronesia and whatever you may have heard it deterred, we have got to have Micronesia.

You've got to have, actually, it's not one area, but one country.

Often, you've got traditions that are related to cultures and spread over languages, and it's important.

It's going to get darker and whiter.

It's out of their populations, small.

What about, do you have anything there on Micronesia that I accept?

No, except there's exactly what you said here.

You're xenophobic at this point of the event.

the United States, and you're going to get an awful lot of beating, you know, beating the United States over the head about the United States.

And what do they want?

Independence.

But it's another, another collective thing.

It's, it's uh... Yeah.

Each little... You can't have our group.

It's like a lot for...

It's ridiculous all together that they should be one country.

They're not big enough.

Uh, they should have, or they should have, frankly, uh, they might even have the relationship that Guam has.

Guam's territory.

Or the British.

Even the Hawaiian thing makes no sense to us.

Or it does.

They already have educated them right in the direction that they want.

What?

We've educated them right in what they're expounding right now.

But one of the people we've educated that they're doing this is...

I'm sorry, who's the worst caller?

The bad peace caller.

Oh, boy.

And they would have called it one of them?

Yes, sir.

Right.

I don't know.

It's been drastically reduced.

Excuse me.

But I'll tell you, the Peace Corps would have gone out there and told them to enter and have frankly talked against this country.

It's a horrible thing.

On my part, he should remember to...

uh you'll have to play it as if well i'm just here to listen and i just want to hear all the views but i want to go on it's tough we're not going to you know we just can't go along with these these

But to the extent that you, I think you could say their future is going to be much better to the extent that you can have the benefits of the United States of trade and, you know, good life, well, everything all goes well there, you know.

It doesn't take too much.

We also have a chance to have a meeting with some of the Chinese businessmen with a chance.

Just a few.

They have the men.

The men.

Oh, that's Haroldine's place, yes.

Would you mind having a chat with him?

Oh, you don't?

Oh, right.

Good.

Do you know Haroldine?

No, I do not.

I hate this.

Haroldine's owner is a man, right?

a very wealthy and very intelligent Chinese.

He's a great personal friend of mine.

And I was going to see there who was the banker, .

But if you could see Harold for a while, I would appreciate it.

I think it would be good.

And I'll send a cable to him that you are coming, but you're staying in the Mandarin.

And I'd like to have a chance.

You can talk to him just like you talked to me.

He is completely... First, he's totally American.

He went to...

He went to Oxford with Bill Fulbright, and Bill Fulbright is nuts.

And he's a total American.

And his wife was lovely.

His wife had to do so forth.

You said that I wanted that Rose will know about Harold Lee.

And I want to be sure that a cable goes to him.

telling him the date of the Secretary's visit to Hong Kong, and suggesting it would be very, it would be useful if, if, if he could work an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour, an hour,

See him alone, without anybody else present.

Okay?

All right.

Apparently, she'll still have the dress.

Yes, all right.

He's a delightful guy.

Uh, but in Hong Kong, you know, we're, we're thinking about this, we make a few little gestures without any reaction yet, for a little more trading, sort of all that sort of thing, with confidence check.

Uh,

It would be very interesting to, just to get the feel of, because Hong Kong was the greatest listening post in the world, and get the feel of what they did about our policy to the Communist Party, what it ought to be.

Of course, you'll find very, it was Harold Lee, he has great friends in Taiwan, and actually he doesn't want to start with them, yet he knows the Chinese.

I think there, you'll find the consulate general staff extremely able to take care of the Chinese businessmen.

I would not like any American businessmen.

How many days do you need to be there?

Two days.

Let me get in on that.

On the third day.

Would you have any, or all your days, no, just take it three months?

Three months.

That's the one block.

Two.

There's another call out there.

Who will be with you?

Uh, from the... Who's traveling with you?

I'll have, uh, from the jury, Rex Beach, uh, from the staff of the Treasury.

I've got all the other things.

And, uh, then I'll have one man from the State Department.

Oh, that's the other student.

Yes, that's the other person.

I have one out of any colors you ask me to get.

Any colors.

Good.

Are you going to go out in any color?

I'm going to go out in any color.

His name is L-A-M-P-E-N, and he's a great supporter of ours, and he has the, uh, and he has the silk company, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh,

I'll also send him, if you get a call from him, he's worth all your time, right?

And worth anything.

And, you know, just relax.

He's good for you.

So is Harold Lee.

Harold Lee, they're two really good guys to talk to.

Two good men to talk to.

Lee, that's another Johnson.

It's a good American.

Strong, Republican, everything else.

That's all that matters.

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I've taken that one so long.

You've been out there, of course, but I've gone out there so often before.

Are you going to spend any time with him?

Just one day.

That's for a briefing.

They told me to be worth the while he was in there.

I'm going to ask, are you going to see Lee Kuan Yew?

Yes.

Good.

Jerry, I have all these people.

Jerry, my friend, you know why.

He's a great ball.

He is.

And they have a fine example of Malaysia for everyone to help.

And Jakarta.

Actually, with the President, you know, Tom, I believe that we remember his visit and there are such high hopes for them.

We want to work with them and all that sort of thing.

And if he, if he has any feelings about, he may be able to, maybe more since he's a military scientist.

Tell him that.

As you go, as you go.

Whenever you're in a conversation and people talk about the president and ask

If you have anything personally that they would like to pass on to me, let them pass it.

We will send it.

In that case, it's not down to the bureaucracy, but we will let Bill know.

I want them to feel that they're talking to me.

See, the ambassador in our position gives a little bit differently so that they can, if you've got anything you want to pass on, you'll be glad to know best of them.

So get off to the side with them a little.

And they'll pass it on.

And when you come back, you let me know.

And I don't know the truth, but they'll help me along.

That's what this is apparently.

That way you sometimes get something out of them that they wouldn't give in their normal talks with an ambassador.

Otherwise, there's no reason to take the trip.

You want to let the ambassador out there, Jim.

We'll just head our team out there, Mr. President, the military survey team.

We've been anxious to get it.

They'll do the observations on their work.

As I get to Bangkok, I wanted to live there, but it's getting late.

I should do it in a couple more days.

Maybe while I'm there, I should do it.

It's not very so easy.

It's only an hour and a half.

But I've definitely time to do something better.

You've got a bank there.

Do you want to get something?

Sure.

Also, .

Oh, well, another thing there, if you do go to ,, it might be worth .

Maybe just take off in half a day.

Go over there and tell the prime minister and the board of ministers .

Just reiterating the tremendous respect that the President has for them.

They mustn't pay any attention to what these damn senators say about them.

We respect them.

We stand by them.

We consider them our best allies in Southeast Asia, and that's going to continue to be.

They need to be reassured.

But other than that, have we worked out that state visit thing with the King yet?

What do you know about it?

I was aware of it, sir, but I don't think it's worked out yet.

I'll have a check.

Well, I've been talking about the possibility of having McCain pay a state visit here, just to show everybody that you're welcome to, you know, leave the Minerva.

And we, the President, are looking forward to the time when they pay a return visit to this country.

But I think going over and reassuring the Todd is a very good idea.

You can reassure them and say, what are your problems?

And that's all we can do to know that we don't take them for granted that our alliance means something.

It's worth no time.

It's worth it.

Take a day and go over something.

It's such a short flight.

Well, whether it be this time of year, it's pretty good.

Or just that.

No, it's pretty good now.

It won't be the rain.

It's the end of the rainy season.

It'll be dry and pretty good in Saigon and Bangkok.

And then Asia.

It's always Asia.

It'll be very warm.

That's for sure.

That's a great place, though.

Do that there.

Yeah.

There's winter back there, you know.

You've been to Bali before?

Never have.

I've never been there.

I never.

That's why.

I know you said last night, put it over there.

I saw it.

I'm just not going to do that after this.

I'll take one of those days.

Always.

I don't know how to read this.

Take care of it.

And every week, be sure you take it one full day off.

You've got that in here.

That's what it means.

You have to go out and take it, because you know there's murder out there.

You go up on the street, you go so far.

At the end of the week, you're dead.

You're absolutely dead.

Fortunately, fortunately, you can avoid some of them.

We got a call from Elizabeth Johnson.

I don't know if he's out there or whether he's back.

Let's see.

Harold Lee.

Harold Lee will be here.

I think his hotel is here.

There's not one in the church on this floor.

No, over the hill from the mountain.

The old one is.

But that's the one.

The man.

The man is down there at the door.

Yes.

And there's the little monocle.

Okay.

And they tell me I haven't stayed there.

I've been up on the hill.

That's the one.

That's right.

The question was the question.

He's, uh, how old is my son?

Yes, sir.

He said, why not now?

And I think when I get back, there might be some time to devote to this.

Could you?

Yeah.

That was very careful.

I tried to get David Packard early.

He had listened to me in here six or eight months ago to see that they're lucky.

Well, I talked to Dave, and at that time, he was not very much concerned.

And it was getting worse and worse.

Now, he is a, look, when you get back, you've got to get, I haven't heard the latest report on that man, and I better check it.

Well, I haven't, I haven't any additional information.

Well, this is, this is something I, we'll get this, our new man, what's that called?

Yes, that's right.

I'm going to get him interested in some of these things, too.

That's one that needs a lot of attention.

That's one that would be used as a macro review.

Oh, it's one.

It's not easy.

Oh, I was going to say that.

I was getting these in full time.

That's right.

What it doesn't have is that's what it means is someone was working in the back.

We had a colleague when we had the meeting.

And after that, he said, well, let me do something on it.

But my God, he'd been testifying every day.

You can't do it.

No, he can't do it.

You know what it is?

It just couldn't be the full time.

We'd be back three weeks.

It's going to take that long to get the vaccine.

It might be that she lost it.

Let's see what we can do.

No, this is not.

I don't care what this thing is.

We better check there and see.

I'm curious.

You don't want to, you just don't want to be in the department.

Just sitting there.

But the thing to do is visualize your .

But I think it's good.

But I would like you to take on, from time to time, special assignments, and particularly get your capacity.

That's all of the good.

I'm not going to keep up with the day-to-day.

They've been trying to get me into the client authority.

So I won't go far with that.

The President specifically asked that if you have anything you want to message, you want to convey, that you'll convey it in a complete promise.

And tell the ambassador that I've asked you to do that.

Go over and tell him.

And you can tell the ambassador later if you feel it's a promise or not.

Great.

Good.

I wish I were going there.

I always love, I love the expression, Lyndon Johnson.

I see.

You don't remember, but I saw you at the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo, and you're on your trip.

You just got the Imperial.

Yeah.

What year?

Was it?

I don't know.

No, it was, I don't know, 1965, when she left Germany.

What did you do?

Was it at 9 o'clock?

No, you were just in town.

We came through the... Would you have a picture with you there?

Somebody has a picture of you.

I don't need a heart.

At the old Imperial Hill.

That was a great place to drink with some.

The other team, I want you to just indicate our hearts to John.

The Secretary of Kennedy will be here soon.

Deal.

And we'll be there.

And I, I look forward to every day here.

And the investment company will be in Hong Kong for a couple of days.

And I, that will be staying at the Manhattan Hotel.

And, uh, I go to Manhattan, Lee's Hotel, Manhattan, and I stay at his hotel.

Visit him there.

Visit him.

Listen, let me tell you this.

I've got an idea or something I can tell you.

No, actually, I don't think I'd be interested to see where they'd go to.

Well, you know, there's a great idea.

They apparently invite you to, if you will, they invite you to free, whatever, go to St. Kitts, he will, Kennedy Road, which is up on the hill, up on the hill, and that's one of the magnificent houses.

You see, they don't die on the old days.

It's fantastic.

Thank you.