Conversation 463-006

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who had a few minutes of your time, sir.

As you know, in route from all the other HUD, I arrived as a counselor.

And it struck me that...

I may not do that, but I am his counselor.

The idea of that HUD play was all worked out.

Everybody who talked about me was, you know, delighted to leave and picked up on the basis of that.

Well, I think that, I mean, the circumstance is that we couldn't, well, it was very messy.

We couldn't just say, George, take off.

But given that situation, it struck me that it might be well to get some guidance from you.

Right.

Oh, kind of.

While I'm in the White House, how you'd like me to spend my time?

Whether I ought to think of it in terms of a permanent thing or a general thing?

I believe you can't answer that.

Can you suggest something after that so we can get that proposition?

Sure.

Because I have you in mind.

You're an operator.

And basically, let me explain it to you.

which I consider to be permanent, until he, unless until, which of course will be, when we show her out, he runs for the Senate, then he will go, but I would not put pension charge in the department, because he is operations on his deputy.

You, on the other hand, are a good operator.

In other words, you're gonna run a good department.

So if a domestic position were to open up, you would be on the line for that position.

That's what I would have in mind.

Now, by a domestic position, I think it has to be

It would have to be, unless I don't know what would be coming along, but if something happened there, or for that matter, AGW, I mean, any of those places, it would have to be, there are all sorts of, but they're taking place here.

Commerce is, yes, yes, any of those.

But I think the important thing for you to have in mind is that I am, that I am,

that I selected U.S. for purposes of moving into a Canada spot, which I think we owe.

We've always expected you to go to a Canada spot.

I still expect you to.

The name in English has no discussion.

So you should consider this as temporary, as interim.

a very tender period, I would hope he would do something to be, and he sure did that.

So the question is, if I know what to do, what kinds of things might be good?

I sent you a memo on that Vietnam idea, which, I don't know if it's gotten to you yet.

Not yet, no.

Not yet.

I thought that at some point you might want to

change the emphasis of the war by having someone involved in looking at the post-war department.

Oh, yeah, that, that, that part.

Yeah.

Is that a problem?

No.

The idea... First of all, I think it would be valuable from your standpoint, actually, to...

I think you ought to take that trip to Europe.

You also ought to

Why do you travel the nation, if you know the reason?

I've went to Japan almost twice a year for the last five years.

I've been down to Laos and... You've been to Jerusalem, right?

Over the years.

I've not spent any time in Africa.

I've not spent any time in the Middle East.

Or behind that curtain.

But Latin America, South America, Europe, I've been there.

Wow.

It might be desirable, at some point, to be some kind of distribution.

Let me say this.

There is so much ongoing going on.

I mean, he was on the peacetime side of it, you know.

He got there.

He was going to study the dead.

In fact, Kennedy was going out there.

He was going to, in fact, spend two years in a bunker, in terms of economics and things.

Where's he going now?

He's gone.

He's there now.

I'm just not sure.

I don't think that you should do anything that appears to be too contrived.

My guess is that Europe is not contrived.

I think that will look to be, well, I'll say it is.

You ought to do it in a pleasant way.

I don't think it will be pleasant.

Well, you ever been by in there?

What's that?

You know, certain things work out a notch.

Well, they will.

It worked out with the Russians.

At some time.

I would certainly give you a crack at that.

I think you should have that.

A visit to Russia would be very important to you.

And if you like, I did go all over the damn place.

I mean, I've been all over it.

It's a, I say all over.

It's a, you can't, nobody can really think about the world these days about, you know, what's going on.

Not just Europe, but so, you know, and of course, Mexico and China.

I would prefer that you think in terms of the visit to Russia and Vietnam.

Vietnam, I think there's so much going on, so much being studied in death in terms of the post-war plans and all that sort of thing.

I don't really know anything that they could add to it at this moment.

And it's going reasonably well in terms of their plans to solve burglars.

Let me see when Kennedy comes back.

Kennedy might come back and say that there was a real need.

Might be an idea.

I have asked him to see whether there was a need for this top American man, domestic scientist.

I'm just thinking with the rest of your policy.

And he said he'd come back and give a recommendation.

If he does, you could do that.

It wouldn't be a hell of a thing.

Physically be there for, say, four months.

Oh, Martin, yeah, six months.

And take a good crack at it.

It's a fault.

Yeah, all right.

But it might be a way to drive it.

I thought of it, Martin, in terms of just making that study, but you ought to be there in terms of that.

the transition from war to peace and all that sort of thing.

We're going to get into it.

You see, here's the thing, Vietnam, as you well know, this is the thing about the city that we will understand.

You got to take your, you got to do the harder things before the easy things come along.

So we got to keep voting on that stuff.

I worked with Laos, and I don't know about the first of May, it didn't look very good.

But that, I mean,

It sets up, he makes the hard shot, so it sets up what we can do later.

And then for the balance of this year, starting approximately the 15th of April, the announcements on Vietnam now that all become positive.

It could well be that

I said, here's the election.

Possibility.

I don't rule it out.

Russia's better.

If I were in your position, I mean, you're, John's always on your council.

I think you ought to go to Russia.

You know?

Yeah.

Hey, listen, five years of my life, nobody's gonna remember me.

Exactly.

You can't realize how quickly it will recede in the public interest, except for those poor devils that have been killed and are getting a damn place.

Vietnam will survive and do reasonably well.

They'll be rocking around and planting an art here with me and a lot of other things and people, but we won't give a damn.

If you think about China and the only Indian matters in the world is China, Russia, and Europe.

Latin America doesn't matter as much as we think.

People don't give one damn about Latin America.

They don't give one damn about everything.

As far as Africa is concerned, really, I'd stay with it.

I don't think there's much to be in the mid-east.

I don't think there's any hint of that.

And anyway, there's nothing you can do about the Mideast.

Europe, yes.

But Russia is the place.

Let's think about Russia.

Or I might give you a chance, if you'd like, to take a crack at one of the Iron Curtain countries.

We've already done Romania and Slovakia, but there might be, we don't get any time over there.

If we go to a place like Hungary or Poland or something, nobody can really understand communism until they go to a communist country.

Have you ever read anything else there?

And all over the world, but no one will really ever feel why it is important that people have a chance not to have it if they don't want it.

That's what he's been talking about.

If you do not understand it, it's impossible.

I talk about dictatorships.

I get to Spain.

I don't know why.

Why it's private in Christchurch, that's what it is.

They talk about private or private.

Could God give us more?

It's creative.

It creates and pollutes.

Believe me, it's beautiful because it has variety.

The great problem of the non-private enterprise country is that they're dull.

There's no variety.

They're all the same.

Everybody's the same.

The house is the same.

The shops are the same.

There is no variety, no beauty, no nothing.

That's the trouble.

What is beautiful?

What is a rainbow?

What makes a rainbow beautiful?

It's all red with beauty.

It's all the colors.

What I think you ought to think of in yourself is this.

At your age, as I have told you before, you should be thinking of what you should do in the future.

I don't think you're thinking about it.

We don't want to be like a silly reaper.

Those jackasses told themselves when I started.

They're over here.

On the other hand, you should be thinking that.

But down the road, my view is that if we can survive, we can.

But you could be a cabin officer, and you can do as far as anything in the cabin field, except

So I wouldn't put you in defense.

And I wouldn't put you in the state, obviously, because I think those two at this time, unless you had a hell of a lot more experience, it would not appear to be something that you can, or you naturally could be a journey general.

But the others...

Oh, Dachshund.

ATW, HUD, transportation, interior.

You wouldn't want agriculture.

No.

You wouldn't.

Cars.

That would be a nice one.

I'm thinking down the road in Illinois, I suppose something in the trade area, or there's almost such trades there, which is one of the reasons I said that.

I thought you were from the Peterson's.

Well, I suggested the possibility of getting involved in that area, or just on that foreign economic council, the international economic council that was created.

Are you on it?

No.

But that would be helpful down the road, in the trade or business type.

Let me make a note of that.

Would you like to be on that?

You've had experience with that, too?

Well, I was under Jack and Ellen before they had a policy committee.

I wouldn't suggest that.

I'm always an expert in anything.

I'm an expert in everything.

The...

It seems to me that getting involved in something to do with... All right.

Let me write this.

Let me tell you something.

Well, let me tell you something.

Don't get bogged down in anything.

Everybody's looking to your future.

That's the game.

That's the big game.

You know that.

So, you know, how do you feel about when you go out to these rural affairs meetings?

You know, when I go out to, you know, I go to Alabama and the rest, you know, I have to sit there and act interested and be excited and all that stuff.

I mean, I do care about all those things, and you care.

But nobody gives a damn.

Really.

Am I wrong?

There's a lot to it.

Those guys are frustrated.

They're sitting there grinding their teeth saying, Jesus Christ, I wish I could sit there.

I don't mean that.

They all want to be running wars.

But we live in a world, a very exciting world.

I have a British ambassador in Salzburg, and I described his side in Salzburg.

I said, at the present time, we have the super hawks on one side, one America that would draw to itself for the purpose of building super strength.

And I said, fortunately, I said, most of them are with us because they will support the command chief, even though they don't think we ought to be fooling around.

The other thing is the super does.

I said, they're worse because they want America to withdraw into itself and reduce its strength in concentrated cities.

And I said, you know, you can have clean air and clean water.

beautiful health, suburbs, and all the rest of this, and they get down to the difference if you're not around.

And so we live in that kind of a world.

It's just the mantle of leadership isn't put in this country.

We didn't ask for it.

But it's here now.

It's gonna be here for 25 years.

And whether peace survives in this world doesn't depend on what happens in this world.

No question about it.

And so whoever sits here has gotta make those tough choices which says to people that

Yeah, maybe sometimes it doesn't happen.

Any of it is more important than one.

Sorry about that.

That's a tough subject.

It's got to be done.

If you don't have a word, you're going to have to play it very deep in.

You've got to change it.

You've got the whole European complex producing more than we do.

You've got Russia, of course.

Then you've got the nation, the commons, the future.

Latin America's 50 years away.

Africa's probably 500 years away.

But they're there.

So here's the United States.

We're here for a fleeting moment in time, maybe 25 years.

Maybe that's all.

25 years, we're going to be dead.

What happens here matters.

The main thing is we must do the right thing.

That's all.

And that's what this miserable land war is about.

I mean, it isn't quite, you cannot get out in a way, sir, that we don't destroy our ability to do the right thing, to be believed, broad, and calm, and trustful.

And that's why you, looking to your future, at your age, think of the world.

I remember as a congressman, I went on a house education labor training.

First, John Phelps, who was a member of the house, probably retired by the time you arrived there.

It was John Phelps' wife and I. Ben.

Yeah, I thought he succeeded.

Anyway, John Phelps.

My great-grandfather urged me to go into agriculture today because there were some old citrus groves in my district.

I said, you know, I don't care about agriculture.

I did not lament taking that thing.

They called it wheat, not one of the trees.

The days before we understood that wheat were good if you got it as a tree.

So I went on education later, which was a good break because we didn't have farming.

And on American activities, which I didn't want to go on, but I was encouraged to go on to be a lawyer, which also turned out to be a victory.

But the best break I got in that year was an old Joe Martin point.

You've heard of me, and I spent the first time in New York, I went to New York.

So I spent two months in New York, travel all over New York, and that's how that developed the house and the support of the Marshall Plan.

Well now,

And I go back to my district, this district.

If you were in Poland at that time, it would have been isolationist.

against a bunch of servants and all that sort of thing.

He put me in, turned me in, ordered me to ordinate and all the other damn things, marching in my home.

So, the best thing I ever did, the best thing I ever did, I became, not just because of the hesitation she had made, statewide,

But because of that, because of my foreign affairs, when I ran for the Senate, you know, I was a foreign affairs expert, you know.

So, telegating and running around, you know, talking about this, I mean, about the problems of the poor people and the offshore oil and the rest.

I just talked about foreign policy, about the Russians and all that.

People would sit there.

Wondered, and so did it.

And believe me, in any big sophisticated state, and yours is a big sophisticated state, talk about the world, not about the little subjects, not about their miserable little subjects, old shit, do things about them.

You gotta help them forward.

We all wanna do that.

Sure, we wanna keep the welfare of our, and I always tell her, and I say,

I said, there's all these wonderful plants, and I sign these messages for the environment, for health, for revenue sharing, all the rest.

And I said, John, there's no vote for the whole God.

There's no sex in that.

There is not.

Because folks don't care.

Unless they're going to maybe cut taxes or something.

But I say to them, get in government faculty.

that we have to say it appeals to political scientists to a certain extent, you get a little, and the audience isn't sure, and the Republicans think, unfortunately.

But, and it's the right thing to do.

John knows it's all right, but, and the world, after thinking it's right, we often start to reverse things there.

But in terms of something that has meaning, or is, what does that mean?

Peace in the world,

The whole space thing is not a property of the black man.

It appealed mainly because it was the unknown, but as it became familiar to people, people lost interest in it.

But if you start going to Mars, they might get interested in it again.

You say, well, this is true, but this is life.

What other things don't mean anything?

That's one of the reasons why the message, the assignment might not be worth it halfway.

You know, I was, would it make sense for me to go to you for, I suppose you've heard about me, but I'm the undersecretary for

I would have loved that.

I told Rodgers, I said, you ought to pick Thompson.

He said, he doesn't know anything about foreign policy.

I said, God damn it, you don't need to know anything.

He knows as much as Irwin.

He got Irwin.

Irwin's a nice, pleasant, colorless man.

And that little hill did not want, in my opinion, a colorful, strong man.

There's the point.

What I did in the House, Mr. President, is I went on the foreign operations subcommittee of government operations, went all over Asia and Europe on investigations.

I went on the military operations subcommittee and went all over on investigations there.

I was on the general economic committee involved in foreign economic policy.

And I pictured Japan about six years ago as a country I wanted to become knowledgeable about.

And started going over there a couple of times a year.

And to this day, I still am with Jim.

I have an idea.

There might be, even at this time, if you're not too sensitive about, and I trust you're not, about where you sit at the table, you really ought to be, you really ought to be important to her in some way.

I wish I had any position.

I mean, of course, I had to be assistant secretary or something like that.

But one that really had a stroke.

Because that's where the action is.

That's where it is.

And five years from now, that would give you an arm's credential and background in terms of running for the Senate in Illinois or in terms of

being involved in the world.

I mean, it's a, it's just a much, it seemed to, it struck me that maybe something in state or the defense would make sense at this point.

Let's look at the defense, though.

Of course, those service secretaries are, well, they're just warrants, man.

I like them all as individuals, but the poor guys, they do lots of important things.

Of course, well, if Henry wasn't such a difficult person,

God knows he needs somebody else to do it.

He needs a question.

Somebody that understands the occasion and all the rest.

Maybe on the verge of something here.

Did you know that we, that I was missing for every section?

No, that I didn't in retrospect, too.

Oh, I know.

I had to go all of them.

That's where they had to keep it quiet because otherwise Irwin would have been done.

We put it right in two routers.

I put him in a very... Also, the problems in terminals were really good.

It would have been a great thing to get your hands on.

Well, you're a golly.

Get out.

I know he owns a terrific dog.

He's doing a good job.

I want him.

I want him to know that I am the captain of the city.

I'm around him.

I believe him.

He's already decided.

He's got a gut and he's sticking it up all over the country.

He beats it up, watch the clips, and he stands right there and takes it, puts it out.

He's good.

Chuck is something that's not very safe.

Let me see what it is.

How would you like the executive secretary to represent him?

That's a possibility.

You know that?

No, I don't.

And it could be done as a councilor, because it's right here in the executive office of the president.

And it would be great to understand... And you like him always, don't you?

Yes, sir.

Or do you?

I do.

Do you like him?

I do.

You didn't want him at one point.

You asked for your recommendation.

You weren't for him or something.

Under Secretary of State.

You said no.

Wrong guy.

Why?

Well, I don't know.

I didn't.

State could capture him.

He was not a strong supporter of yours, Mr. President.

I don't know.

I think you were dumbfounded when he came to work with me.

It's a good point for putting where he is.

He's in the right place.

He's not a supporter of ours.

He's basically...

He's a right man.

Right, he is.

And you are comfortable with him.

But he'll do a good job.

He'll do a good job for you, and he's for you now.

I mean, he'll be.

And he'll be captured by all of their other controls.

But he will stay.

Great captain.

Let me ask you about that special trade representative.

Let me tell you what.

And the old guy over there is sterile.

What's his name?

He's an old man.

He's tired.

Nobody should think about what happened.

Couldn't you die untreated?

You just put it too low.

That's the energy.

You know, it's a funny thing, though.

I saw it.

We all, I guess, kid ourselves.

I'll never be like this, I know.

I've seen too many workers.

I'll never forget when I got my college class.

They came in, and how damned old they were.

And I also remember, and also had some of my bosses, some of the guys, how old they were.

And they were fat.

They just looked old, and they were tired, and they didn't talk too coherently.

And I wondered, what the hell has happened?

Do I sound that way?

I can't sound that way, or I couldn't be here.

And I guess that there must be a difference in chemistry.

Or, it's what Tito said about Churchill.

He said he saw him at his prime, and he saw him many years later.

Churchill came down to visit one of those Black Sea and Adriatic ports, not the Black Sea, but the Adriatic ports.

Churchill looked at Tito by the whistle, and Churchill had had a stroke by that time, and he said, I really understand how you can focus so strong and vigorous at your age, but as Tito said to him, I know what it is.

Power.

Well, that's a great story.

Thank you.

No, it isn't.

Disagree to that.

Churchill really thought about a loan interest, but I do think that when a person ceases doing useful things, he dies inside.

He dies, doesn't he?

Now, he doesn't have to be president.

He doesn't have to be chairman of the board.

He doesn't have to be the top dog or anything.

But he's gotta believe that he's doing something damn useful.

He can paint, he can fish, he thinks that's important.

He can even become a golf ball if he thinks it's useful.

But he's gotta be useful.

And we have, you've got guys your age that are old.

Because they're no longer useful.

Or they think, oh, I can't make it to the top.

And a guy quits trying to do that.

He's finished.

He gets old.

Hell, it isn't a question of how much hair he's got or what there is there.

He just looks old.

Nobody tells him he's smart.

I see so many people running around that don't have any goddamn smart.

I even see people who can't do that.

He's married with them.

I want to kick their ass.

But they don't understand.

That's a smarter cat, you know.

Show them some enthusiasm.

I feel it.

Special treatment, per se.

That could be very good.

It sure would put a cast on it.

You could still get a cosper.

That's the kind of thing that you could do both, I would think.

The undersecretary would be in a separate thing.

Irwin's just there.

Oh, is that?

Oh, yeah, Chad.

That's the narrative that we had to do for special reasons.

It was the right thing to do.

You can see now why the Codley fight was so important.

The citizen, he's just a gangbuster down there.

He goes down before those committees and he lays on an aisle and now they need to strike.

Our guys have got to speak up.

He goes down there and says, I believe this and that and the other thing.

It's a big confidence they've got.

You just can't get them to the bottom of the top.

Everybody respected him.

But the other hand, Kennedy never had any clout.

He wasn't a zinger.

He comes off strong.

He does.

You ought to be, oh my God, a special attorney.

I figured what I'd like you to do.

Check the job, see whether it involves travel.

Okay.

Unless it does, don't even consider it.

If it involves something that your family here don't even consider, if it does involve travel, if it involves moving around the world, it may be exactly the right spot.

We ought to change the job.

That's a real question there, though.

You must go ahead and be captured by Peterson.

Mm-hmm.

Am I right?

Yeah.

Or, for that matter, by Henry.

Or by Rogers.

Or by Stans.

It's a... Everyone's got to be thinking... Oh, it's a political... Tough political...

It's a political job.

That's right.

Tough politics.

I think, you know, we just talked about this.

I'm glad you brought this up.

The other day, I went into Peterson today, and I said, my God, we've got to get somebody into that job.

And I said, really, it's a little bit more job.

You've got to deal for it.

It would be great.

But also, it is a good job that's positioned you to foreign policy.

It does.

It moves you towards foreign policy.

Well, they haven't even moved an undersecretary or two.

Yes, he has.

I did.

It was a lot of crap.

Those two jobs, the only ones over there, I mean, it crossed my mind.

Everything else, everything else.

The service secretaries, never, never, never, who never wants to be secretary of the air, they all they have, I see them when they come over and read the Medal of Honor citations.

Ask them some other way to get into the foreign area.

Something like Korea as an ambassador to a country like Japan.

It's a crummy job, as you think, to be an ambassador.

No, no, that would be all right.

That's the one country where I really get involved over a period of time.

A tour there would position you into the foreign and, uh...

I thought that was military.

Air on that total is a bad job.

That's a man.

I've got a background.

That's a man.

Could be an excellent, an excellent appointment.

We got lousy.

I say lousy, Ambassador.

He's just weak.

He's faceless.

They were meeting.

Yeah, once.

Yeah.

But I've seen pressure.

He's quiet and, uh, no plans.

You know, I depend on all of our guys.

I know they're working hard and their wives work hard and everything, but God damn it, Don, if a guy doesn't have the odd move, we don't do that.

I must say, I'm impressed with this Malik.

Boy, he's a stepwinder.

He is working his butt off, crucifying people to move.

He's one of my guys from Ohio that is a doer.

We replace 40% of the people over there.

over a two-year period.

Civil service included.

And this guy that's working for Clark is that way.

He's just a...

There's only one other guy.

Is that too early?

So...

It's the biggest.

It's big enough.

It's the biggest.

Big embassy.

It's the only one that matters.

Nine hundred people in that embassy.

The only one that matters is a hell of an embassy.

Yeah.

The trouble is, we want to take our hooch with us.

But Brazil is, Brazil is, Brazil is about 200 million people by the end of the century.

It's going to be a hell of a place, and it's gone.

It's both a dictatorship and it should be.

Let's see.

There is an interesting spot.

No, I think, in your view, I don't know if you're...

But Japan, you can do Japan.

You don't have to speak Japanese.

Nobody speaks Japanese.

It's a great country, isn't it?

It is.

It really is a fascinating place.

They're alive.

They're working their fangs on it.

They really are.

I notice they're having all sorts of riots now.

They're rioting about the same reason we riot about them.

Okay, representative.

Find out how much he travels.

You let me know.

You make this little study for me.

How much does he travel?

What does he do?

He's got quite a little staff over there, too.

You could take it over, take the staff, run the whole land thing.

I think this would be a hell of a thing.

It would be a very good thing for you.

And it would also keep you available.

You wouldn't be all that busy if you couldn't stick around here and help with some other things.

You have the possibility of reaching out.

Downside of that is it pulls you out of the country.

That's all right.

You've got lots of time.

I mean, no, no, no.

I agree.

It's the warning of masters thing that has appealed to me in terms of...

I don't think I would do it.

The future of that country is so forecast.

We're ballooning.

Yeah.

I think the special trader in Japan, I don't know what the situation is in Japan, what we told those people.

But I hope we have a promise.

Yes, sir.

What time?

6.45.

Get along.

You've got money.

In fact, they're all busy with the bridge and that sort of thing.

The advantage also of doing something like the special trade representative is that

You once told me I should be doing something in a line area, and I'm trying to agree with you.

I like that.

There is a problem, potentially, with the guy floating around in the White House in terms of, oh, if you get into someone else's business this way, instead of these things going this way.

There is for you.

There isn't for Bench.

No, he likes it.

He likes it because Finch likes to float around.

That's right.

And he's not good at the line area.

He just doesn't like to be that buttoned up.

And I do.

I like to have a shot at something that Ernie stood and Bob's more easy to catch over.

He likes that.

He floats well.

But I don't think it's probably, it's best at some point for me to have, if I'm in the White House, to have understood and specified.

I think this is a special trade for computers.

That is interesting.

Because I think it's going to open up.

I think it's open now.

They're talking about some specialist, some businessman to do this job.

But you can do it.

You can be tough as hell.

That's what we have to have.

Somebody who will fight like hell for American exports.

But what you've got to do, you know, we're sure going to ring all over the world.

And they couldn't let these other countries gain play.

Right.

And the way you give off in the Congress.

Mm-hm.

I think that would be done on the Joint Economic Committee.

I wouldn't care.

I think it's good that you're on that.

What's the connection with that, I wonder, with Peterson's operation?

Suppose that guy's a member of the council.

Yeah, he's a member.

That's right.

So he's automatically a member.

That's it.

He is, which is good again.

Part of the superstructure.

That's one of the three councils.

Great.

Thank you.

He apparently is.

You know, he's being a good soldier.

He is.

Working hard.

He's a, I like his evangelism and everything.

And it's hard for him because George has never, George really, you know, had some messianic feeling he feels he should be talking about.

Most people who juggle, he feels the same thing.

He thinks he can run it all.

We understand that.

They're good men, though.

They're good men.

They all, they're all loyal.

They are being more like, you know,

And I think it's good you've got Robbie in your care.

I think you need some pretty cool little development of personalities on their own.

It makes people recognize your size if you have people of size around you.

That's why the comedy thing helps too.

Everybody thinks that you didn't pick a guy.

Well, let's face it.

You see comedy, you see a man that they know could be an effective president.

Everybody knows that.

And that's helpful.

Let me talk to you a minute.

You've still got a little time.

It's your graduation and all the negative ones, so just feel about it.

I had to write in a very difficult note today.

I had to virtually order him to go to the damn gridiron, which I am not going to this year.

I fight it out, but for eight years I went to that goddamn gridiron dinner, because I only went one year or two, if I recall correctly.

Maybe two.

And I hated it every time.

I always had been like, and they always, they didn't, they didn't, they didn't hit their heart on him.

That's what they used to do to me after all.

So I was their favorite boy.

So I'd sit there and smile, and I'm a laughing boy, and act as if I liked it.

Made a little speech after the end, you know, and listened to the bars, and went up afterwards, and walked through the rooms, and talked to all the editors and so forth, and went home dead tired the next day.

But it's obvious that he is, I hadn't realized this until now.

Bryce had not realized this until he had become extremely sensitive about the criticism.

He shouldn't.

Hell, if he did something wrong, you've got to give him very good attention.

But that rather surprised me with your evaluation.

What's happened here?

Well, my sense is that...

I'm having a little dinner for him tomorrow.

Good.

I'm just going to have about eight and five of the cabin officers.

I thought that would help a little.

It will.

I think he's such a decent guy.

I know he wants to track with you.

He does not track with you instinctively.

No.

He's kind of almost, he seems like a generation older than you in terms of flexibility and ease.

You've had so much ease in different experiences and certain circumstances.

He tends to be rigid and inflexible on things.

Now, that's him, it seems to me.

He doesn't want to be him.

He wants to move.

all the business about the youth, and we all know the problem, and we all know that as long as we have the war, why won't we have anything?

I understand that.

But their dislike for egg is greater for a reason that probably they don't really understand.

because basically he is so inflexible.

As a matter of fact, I think your point is well taken, he probably seems to them

More of a father, older image than I do.

Do you agree or not?

Yes.

Actually, I'm eight years older than he is.

Oh, no, he's older than you are.

There's no reason to question that.

That's a very curious analysis.

What's the reason for that?

Is it a method or what?

It's his background.

For example, I do a press conference very differently from the way he does it.

He does it extremely well, is what I mean by it.

I think he's so articulate and everything.

He wants my attention, but mine has more of a, I think, more of a, and that's why the press hates my guts so much, is that I have a way of neighboring them in a way they can't get back, might somebody say.

But you come out open, like a listener, and with some moving space.

And he comes out like he wants to lecture you.

And, like, he'll listen, but he's mindful enough.

Like, he's almost a parent.

It's almost a... And that's bad with kids.

Well, that's bad with a lot of people.

It's bad with people who don't agree.

The key in the election, and in governing, it seems to me, people keep saying, oh, hell, there's no votes for the blacks, and there's no votes for the brown people.

Well, the important thing is that the white people...

know that they can't talk to the young people, and they know they can't talk to black people.

So we've got to do better, I know.

But they feel that they want their president and their government at least to appear to be able to communicate, because they know they can.

And they want the president to be better.

We're trying.

Well, we are.

I'm getting much better at this, I'm afraid.

I've got a friend who used to ride down the train to Chicago, and he said to me when I was in Congress, before I walked up to him, he said, he said, look at those black girls and everything.

He'd say, well, Jesus, I don't understand it.

I don't want to know about it.

But I just think that God, someone's doing something about it.

You know, that's you.

And so the votes of the white population depend, in part at least, on the ability of the government

to appear to be able to communicate with the young blacks and the people who are out, even though we don't get their votes.

And the vice presidents,

demeanor in some of those circumstances tends to tell people that he's not communicating with them, even though he has to be very effective at it.

Gee, that television show was terrific.

Ross, yesterday.

Yeah, I didn't see it.

He did an elephant last year, so he was awful good.

He really was.

But my sense is that it's too early to tell.

He's... My style is quite different, though, apparently.

So, fair to say, when I talk to those who are press conference, they get a little bit...

But look at his diagram.

He came in this straight-out barrel.

And I think the book's still out on them.

I think he's learning.

Bill Hart wrote from Maryland to the top, but he couldn't imagine.

I mean, I've had four times, three times as much experience in government as he did.

Most people did, in terms of age.

I don't think that's true.

He's done just surprisingly well to have been taken from nowhere to that kind of problems.

I think each year he's in that.

The awkward thing for the staff is to keep him wired in.

He's hard to wire in.

John tried, Bob tried, Bob Fitch tried, I tried to oversee him.

But I think each year he's in it, he learns and he grows with it.

And he's, the thing that worries me, and I'm frankly, admittedly, oriented towards 2011, is the business community and the suburban types and any amount of poverty areas, which are shitty outwards, are turned off.

And that's harmful to you.

Turned off what?

Talking about your present.

Are they really?

Yes, they've turned off.

And what are you talking about?

People like in Evanston and like that?

Similar colors.

Just women, men, both.

Both?

More women than the other.

More men.

Why?

I don't know.

Why?

I think it's style.

Huh?

It's style.

I'm sure I turn it off.

No, you do not.

Not the same way.

No, you know it.

We go up and down, but our problem is basically, you know, there are only two of the economy in the water.

We solve those two.

That's the reason we go up.

That margin in states like Illinois can make a difference in electoral votes.

Tell me this.

Does Connie turn it off?

Does he come out too strong?

There's a danger.

In my mind.

Well, in my mind it's an open question.

No, you can't do anything.

That's right.

I'm just curious.

He's a big guy.

I don't want him to be too strong.

Well, I think it's open.

He's a... For that person, he's a little too Johnson-like.

And he's very much like Johnson, except he's totally honest.

That's right.

He's better than Johnson.

He doesn't have the ego to kill him so much.

He's got the ego, but he doesn't kill him so much.

I think he's just an incredibly effective guy.

Remarkable how two men can be so smart and so able.

Do you think Aging turns them off because he's too rigid to...

What is it?

I think rigid, lack of flexibility, lack of...

It isn't because of something they've read about you.

No.

That's unfair.

I think it's style.

You don't.

They like you.

And they disagree with something here, something there.

But you fit that mold.

You're worldly and sophisticated and...

You do find them.

I don't know what the answer is.

Now, comedy, of course, has great appeal in a more earthly way than you do.

And there are a lot of places around the country where that's very effective, that kind of physical almost.

I don't mean like Johnson pulling out a scar.

Just so the scars are stronger.

It's an earth-eater.

I am basically, of course, from...

the chorus of the three backgrounds in terms of the, what we call, this world's goods.

But, of course, I'm a Midwestern in terms of background, but I think the difference is probably that

I really have seen so goddamn much of the world that I must reflect and say, because of my accent, thank God, that hasn't changed.

I can't stand that 40 Eastern accent.

No, I can't either.

I know it.

You know those people, you know, they run around, put on a little swishy look and so forth.

Now, I don't mind if they're swishy, but I just don't want them to show it around me.

I think there's something about you that people think you're learning all the time.

You're absorbing.

And they want that.

They want that.

They know they are.

The good ones know they are.

And someone who doesn't seem to be raises questions.

They want to be with them.

So you can't talk to a kid who wants a leader who

Maybe he isn't doing a perfect job, but the lines are open, you know, and he's plausible and listening and interesting.

They don't want to see roads cut off or blocked in society.

The answer was to help the Vice President track better with things, and I think that's right.

I know, I know, absolutely it is.

Because I completely want to.

I really am convinced of this sincerity.

It really is.

This is a very fast track.

That's what Manny did not realize.

It's a terribly fast track.

And he did a full run.

And there's no plan to skips it during the campaign.

It seems to have fallen.

And we have to realize that the track being as fast as it is, we'll come to work.

We'll be knocked out and come back again.

We're going to come back again.

We're only jerks.

The press, the TV, the politicians, the businessmen, the rest.

And they're always watching here to see whether or not you made sure I'm pregnant.

This guy got it or not.

So you always got to be working, thinking, never off guard.

And they want you to be bigger than life.

Never for a moment.

That's right.

Say, well, Lou Rukeysen was delighted with this.

Oh, yeah, I know.

I enjoyed reading it.

He writes.

Who was he writing?

He was writing a very good book for the New York Times as a junior at Princeton.

And he suggested it.

Really, you've got good stories out there.

Very good, at least.

When the point was changed, it turned out I was out of time, so.

I'm sorry.

I had a good talk with him.

Good.

Well, I appreciate your assistance.

As I said, this seems to be my, you know, I saw a size over, and I gave it to Dan here now.

I believe what I see when I fall, I get his butt in on it.

Because there's no reason to sit down and give him 15 minutes for a hot lead.

I sit down so they can get to know me.

Yes, sir.

To sit down and let him jack around and talk.

I just hope we're right about the economy.

We could be.

We may surprise you.

We may surprise everybody.

I have a strange feeling about general institutions.

The main thing is it's moving in the right direction.

The only debate is how fast.

And that's a nice thing to be debating about.

Sure.

Sure is.

But the fact is, it's just not what it is, but which way it's going.

That's how people feel.

Well, for example, I just started a proposal in Miami.

And he told me, he said, this year, the beach, the beach in the last year, this year, the record seems to say, well, that's a small indicator that the reason is the market's up a little bit.

That's true.

There's always a diverse sense of interest.

I still like to see you say the leadership role publicly regardless of what it does to the economy.

I think the public perception of you caring about the economy, even if you can't make it improve.

From a political standpoint, I really mean it.

Yes, sir.

I think that stuff helps you miserably.

For you to be the tension of the unemployed and wanting this economy to work out well.

I would do more of that.

I would do more.

The politics of it are just all your way.

Yeah, that's what I remember.

I see how we do it, but we've got to find things that people will hear about.

As you say, there is absolutely no sex appeal in all this other stuff.

Tell us more.

We'll see.

You check that.

Let me know.

That's probably the best thing.

Special trade.

Very good.

Let me thank you.

It might pull, I guess.

See, I don't want to go out this door.

I don't want to go out this door.

You can't go out that way.