Nixon, MacArthur & Haig on Iran and Shah of Iran

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Looks good.

How are you?

Fine, fine.

Sorry to keep you waiting on the hills.

You said about me doing a couple of hills in Arizona.

You know how those things are.

You were dazed.

Why don't you sit down?

Uh, you were really going to tell me.

No, you see, I didn't see.

It was fine.

I guess it was fine.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I see.

Move your chair a little bit more.

Around like this.

Got it?

Yeah.

Incidentally, again, the job is focused very much on something else.

It's just working.

Would you mind getting over this?

You're not letting me.

Let's talk about that when they come in.

We'll stop you.

Okay.

I want to go, and I noticed that your memorandum indicated, I guess it was your memorandum of state, or I guess it was somebody, that you felt would not be able to do well in coming for the others were there, and I couldn't agree more.

It's like going to a funeral.

That's right.

I've been to funerals or an inauguration.

But on the other hand, I would like to go, and I...

i think we could pop over there at some time now it might be that we might want to do it september

All right.

I don't know if you can hear that, but I'm going to try to get a little stronger tonight.

I'm going to try to get a little better tonight.

One of my old friends here.

We were there 50 years or so.

Well, so on that, you can go back and, uh, and just tell me, and, uh, let me talk to you.

So I will.

I'll let you know.

Let me say, it is not my person.

and I might be in one of the places that Alfred's done.

But I did not plan, I would have an excuse to go to his place without having to do the jumping around through some of them African gyms, you know.

And I've got some of those, you know, if you've ever started on Central Africa, you've heard of Northern Africa, because everyone goes to Morocco.

He's coming here, so that's a job I want to do, and I think it's handled as simple as much.

Do you mind?

Yes, sir.

Absolutely.

So he's also, I'll never forget, while I was out of office, he twice received me.

So he's telling us how to be done.

I thought that we had to make it.

So I'm going to bring out those problems that are October looks extreme.

October is just out of the cards.

Yeah.

There's a hell of a lot of things going on.

I have no more.

No, I'm standing around.

Just say that October, just say that October is not possible.

So I'm examining September and November.

How's that?

September.

September, I think is the best time.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yes, sir.

That's fine.

because it'll be before all these other people come, and that'll be a tremendous focus.

The other reason I want you to come, say, this year, as you know, as you know so much better than I do, when the bridge pull out of the Gulf, that vacuum is going to be filled, and Iran is going to have to play the major part in doing that.

They're capable of it.

He talks about that, and I hope...

And as you know, I'm, I guess I'm sure you are, I started with the horse riders for him.

But then when I raised it with our staff here, with the defense, they sort of stare at it.

I don't mean to hold it, but they say, well, the shot was sent about this and stuff.

Isn't that right?

Isn't that what we find?

They don't think, they just don't think he's got the scope to do it.

Well, there's a feeling, yes, sir.

Well, if I could find you and all the work you did, it would be wonderful, because he's our friend.

Right, sir.

They run the damn pet shop, right?

He does.

And can these guys, they can probably fight pretty good if they have to.

Sure, if they have to.

But the point is, they don't know how to.

But they're rich.

They may not have to.

You see, the problem is this vacuum in the British law.

Who can fill it?

We can't fill it.

The Japanese will get 90% of their petroleum from the Gulf.

Come on, we didn't do anything.

You do.

And they go, Europe gets 56%.

And it's easy to be killed by the radical parents.

And in Europe, yeah, we're setting up liberation fronts.

I see.

I know.

And do I have to accept what he told me?

He said to me, I've come up with a very good relationship with him.

He said, he talks quite frankly.

He said, you know, I admire your cousin.

He understands the international world and this part of the world particularly much better than either of his predecessors.

He said they really didn't understand this Middle East thing at all with all the synopses.

And from your many talks with him, he's convinced that

that you offer.

Now, when you go there, we'll have some suggestions about things that you should talk about.

But coming in this period, just before the British pull out, some 10 other reasons would be marvelous.

It's awfully important.

Well, you put it in the wheels here.

Let me suggest a start.

Do not.

At this moment, do not at this moment, put it in the wheels of the station.

I mean, for the reason, not that I, I'll tell Bill Rogers if I see him sometime privately, I'll just say, oh look, if you hear about this, it's because I talked to Sean personally.

But if I put it in the wheels of the station, then of course all the desk officers over there would say, well, I was going to do this and that before I heard about that.

So what we want to do, what I want you to do is you talk to Paul about plans scheduled here.

Tell him that I'd like to see what we can work on and let's just block off a little time in September.

The only thing I'll say to say is what I've said before, that I know that you want to go when you can, but it is to be clear.

I think it's important to say, obviously, that we discussed the matter, that I said that I had told Scott that I was going to come, that I do intend to, that right now the fall looks uncertain.

I just can't make a commitment.

But you tell Shaw that the decision has been made, that the timing is the problem.

Fair enough.

What about this, though?

Does he need more money?

Does he need, what he's saying, he says, look, if we could have more arms, in fact, as I understand it, then they could play

Maybe he's thinking too big.

Well, maybe thinking a bit big, but I can't say that what we're trying to do is to get him programmed.

To get him, you know, instead of just saying, I need this, I need that, I need the other thing.

Because if you say you don't need this thing,

It's through the roof.

But what we have said is, to develop your five-year plan, you need to have the basic material, which is, first, what are the items that you want?

Cost.

The infrastructure that's needed to support them.

And then, very important, the personnel that you have and will need to marry them, and of course, the whole thing.

And then, this is the basis for identifying priorities and developing a five-year program.

This is what we're working on.

And I've talked to Henry Kearns at Ex-Im here.

They've got, they need some credit.

Henry's handling it extremely well, I think.

And I think it's going to be a mix of some gap, a private-money gap with the government guarantee in some direction so that it does represent you heavily enough for Ex-Im.

That's what we're working on now.

About $140 million for this next fiscal year.

Well, I can, uh, in all your conversations, I can actually believe you very strongly.

saying that you and I have talked about this, that I want to help every way we can.

We actually do have problems, and there are many demands and all that, but that he comes very high on our thoughts and our lessons, and that means a lot to me, too.

It means a lot.

It's true.

I know it's hard.

They said anything in here that I can't sign, I do.

Well, we had a good, I can ask those things a couple of times, the damn things, because they, you know, they had to.

They got to represent everybody, but I like him, and I like the country, and some of those other bastards out there,

to this sound that is progressive and that the bubble regards us as just about its earnest friend.

That's where we're trying to shore up weaknesses and it's, you know, like track and field and India, this sort of business.

Yesterday, one of the senators, Senator Byrd of West Virginia, did a really good job answering questions.

He said, well, he said, one of the questions that was raised in our talks with the President was this week, and it should be the fact that they're pulling down on Vietnam.

And he said, well, what is your view with regard to reducing our forces in Thailand and eventually removing our presence there?

I said, all right, Papa.

Let me tell you why.

I said, Thailand's a very different cup of tea from Vietnam.

He said, you know, we got treated with Thailand.

I said, in any event, the North Vietnamese start romping around in Thailand, they're going to call that treaty up.

The United States has never broken a treaty.

Now, in the event that we pull out of Thailand, we'll damn well invite them because it's Thailand.

And I said, now what are you going to do?

What do you want us to do?

Do you want us to lose?

I mean, in Vietnam, where we had no treaty.

And we're basically, all we're doing is frankly trying to see through a commitment that began in the weekend for a good reason and now we're going to see it through in the right way.

If even there, it would shake credibility for American World.

God damn it, the first time that the United States does that, can't buy a treaty.

You know, you've been to Japan.

What would the Japanese think if we let the Thais go down with America?

Huh?

Don't you agree?

Oh, yes.

We can't do it.

And, uh, so these, but these guys, I said, no, we could do so already 9,000 in Thailand.

And, uh, I think reducing any more is a very good idea.

The Thais would go like the, wouldn't they?

Oh, yeah.

They're wavering right now.

They're quivering now.

Well, the point is, getting back to your point, it is true.

I guess you're right.

Iran is the only thing there.

The Philippines is a can of worms, as you know.

Taiwan, in terms of Vietnam, is a pretty strong little place, but it lives in suffering.

Malaysia and Singapore are at each other's throats with Lee Kuan Yew, the socialist leader, probably the Eagles leader.

The Indonesians are beginning to come back, but they're 20 years away.

And a stronger answer in terms of the order.

conviction, which I share 200%, that we must not see a basic balance between East and West alternately, a strong Iran.

You know, the Soviets have been able, through their polarization, this Arab-Israel conflict, they have been able to gain increasing influence in these places, no question about it.

But a strong Iran helps to counterbalance that.

And this is one of the friends there, that basic Iran is not a major world, really, in a sense.

I guess, but the point is, by God, if we can go with that, we can have them strong, and they're at the center of it.

And a friend of the United States.

I couldn't agree more.

Because you look around there, it just happens.

Who else do we have, except for Europe?

The southern Mediterranean, it's all gone.

Hassan will be here as a nice fellow, but Morocco, Christ, they can't last here.

Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Sudan, actually EYR, all the little miserable countries around Jordan.

and Lebanon and the rest, they're like, they go down like ten pens, just like that, that some of them would like to be our friends.

But central to every one of those hunters, even as far off as Morocco, is the fact that the United States is the wife of Israel.

And because we're allies with Israel, we are their enemy.

That's right.

That's what it is.

Now, this doesn't mean that we've got Israel without a dream, because that would play into the Soviet hands, too.

But it does mean that right now we're in a hell of a difficult spot.

Because our Israeli tie makes us unpalatable to everybody in the Arab world, doesn't it?

It does.

In very...

Yes, some are like, but it's not with Trump.

Not with Trump.

He's awfully good on that subject matter.

He and I were having a conversation, you know.

And, sir, it is a complete relative reform.

Land reform, education, health, workers' housing, all work things.

And it's working, and of course, it's totally disarming the counties.

The tuna party.

And how about the young people?

Are they...

The young people, about 10% are activists who, as they get more education, they want...

Yes, yes.

They want a greater voice in the thing.

But the shot is wise enough, you know, that when you take the people...

that are from feudalism, and you drag them out of the womb of feudalism, like a midwife dragging a child out of the mother's womb, you let those great elemental forces, and this is what he's done.

Now, he runs fairly close to our ship, to channel these energies and forces into his stride.

He always tries to keep one step ahead of him.

He does.

He said to me the other day before the auto talks, he said, let's keep talking about it.

I said, all right.

He said, Mr. Pastor, he said,

I need more hospitals.

I need more health services in my villages.

I need more workers' housing.

I need more schools for my people.

He said, I must do these things.

He's got a profound, he's developed a profound social conscience.

What is it?

Great stability there.

They are moving ahead with economic growth.

How are they growing except in oil, may I ask?

Are they diversifying all over?

Are they manufacturing?

Are they manufacturing better agricultural productivity?

Yes.

There isn't much there.

Well, the main productivity, they do wheat dates and things of that kind for exports, but the things they have to do are wheat, and they have to set up.

John Deere is putting a tractor factory in the South.

The Romanians with one in the North, which isn't functioning in port, told me that they are interested in taking that and putting a better job in.

But, you know, they produce scotch tissues.

across the board, investments pouring in from Western Europe, because if you want investment in that kind of company, it's the only stable one that believes in the free enterprise system and that encourages.

The Shah said to me, I can't ask people to invest unless they can get a fair return on their money and unless they think that their investment is secure.

And when the radical Arabs asked him to,

joined in his oil negotiations and insisted on a forced investment of 25% of the profits.

The Shah said no.

What the companies do with their profits is their business, just like what I do with the oil money is our business.

If you want more investment, create a climate where investment wants to come.

He's doing this.

They're getting more and more export oriented.

He hopes to set up an industrial business that will serve Saudi Arabia, the Gulf area on the other side, and the region around it.

And they give high priority to projects, industrial projects, plants.

that will have a 20% to 25% will be export-oriented rather than just masculine.

I guess we should work a few more years around the world with this foresight.

Well, his ability to run, basically, let's face it, a virtual dictatorship in a benign way.

Because, look, when you talk about having a democracy of our type in that part of the world, God, it wouldn't work.

They don't even know what it is.

You know what happened to Congo?

Constitution, wonderful buildings, all the nice trappings, but these people had never practiced it at all.

Sure.

Mahmoud was a dictator.

And what did he do?

He told you about it.

You remember, sir, in 1960, he came apart.

No, no, you have to.

But he is.

Let's look at Africa, generally, and this country at least has got some degree of civilization in its history.

But those Africans, you know, are only about 15, 75 years from other countries, some of them.

But did you know in all of Africa, of all those new countries, there is not one country that has a so-called parliamentary democracy that meets even the standards that we could halfway insist on for Vietnam?

Halfway.

heads and cheeks and nose and the rest before they finally got to their system.

So I never quite as looked out my nose quite so much.

We were having the Brazilian up here, you know.

They visit some of your colleges, they say, oh geez, that's terrible.

What the hell is a Latin American?

Colombian.

Sure, they trade parties each four years.

Is that a system?

Mexico?

It's a one-party system.

Venezuela?

Maybe.

And the rest?

Chaos.

except where you've got brazil brazil a relative ability of stability relative stability argentina that's a tragedy tragedy because god damn it it should be the best next brazilian the problem is that son of a baron uh left residue of

Oh, I don't know.

But you see, I think there's just an incursion.

We just got to be not tolerant, not tolerant of violation of principles that we feel and believe in very deep.

Not supporting the idea that there ought to be a dictatorship to replace a democracy or something like that.

Not saying the dictatorship of the left is wrong and the dictatorship of the right is right.

Having in mind one solid fact, that people in the world are in different stages of development, and they are different.

And that each needs a system that fits his own.

Japan, for example.

Sure, they have elections and all that sort of thing, but you know damn well that a business oligarchy runs Japan.

Right.

You were there.

Huh?

No, no.

And it's the way it has to be.

And the Constitution and procedures we gave them is in the process of becoming Japanized anyway.

I mean, because it was in keeping with our historical evolution, but not with theirs.

Mr. President, you're looking wonderfully well with all the burdens that you've got.

to bear, you've got to survive.

How is your wife?

She's fine.

She's in Tehran.

She used to sit by her at dinners.

She's always a lot of fun.

She's talking about Barclay and the old ladies.

Do you like it there?

Yes.

It's an interesting city.

Well, it's professional, you know, working with the kind of people that you're working with, and it's just a good job.

You can't ask for more than that.

I remember the guest room I had.

It was very nice.

Yes, I think it was.

Yes, sir.

I'm serious.

But what's the matter with the world?

Well, President, thank you so much for your time.

Thank you, sir.

Well, and we're looking forward to seeing you.

As you know, I don't get to see many of you back here.

I know, because it's something we were trying to do.

Now, let's see, do you have a presidential comment, Jim?

No, sir.

How are you about this?

This is your presidential comment.

That is, do you go over?

No, I'm not, sir.

Okay.

That's for your wife.

Oh, thank you so much.

That's the presidential paper.

That's all you get.

Okay, never that long.

It's better than Christmas.

It's like the state of October.

Never October.

The state told me what the state of October is like.

I won't.

So they know that I can't.

And as far as the other, it's very uncertain.

Good.

All right.

Nixon, MacArthur & Haig on Iran and Shah of Iran

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on April 8, 1971

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