Nixon, Kissinger & Naville on International Committee of the Red Cross

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I mean, uh,

You all sat there together, your organization, the Catholic organizations and the rest.

It was a great meeting.

And you did a wonderful job, everybody did.

That's all set over here because they want pictures.

And let me suggest, you sit here.

Remember you sit here.

You sit there.

No, it's not you.

You're my chief advisor in these fields.

Yeah, we'd have some coffee if you'd better do it.

That's the thing.

Yeah, that's better.

Oh, I don't know.

We're out of our way, gentlemen.

We'll get back to you.

That light is just not here.

It's a tree.

It's going down.

It's a light.

He's our expert.

My understanding is that we met so many years ago, and the work with the Inter-Asian Group at that time, of course, was outstanding.

We prefer tea to coffee.

We have tea or coffee.

Coffee.

Yes, coffee.

And then of course, we've been active in so many areas that we've managed to play with Jordan.

managerial so the problem here that of course so deeply concerns us we know is one that you have you've been trying everybody else to be hopeful but we don't seem to make much of it

You have been in the South Vietnamese areas, but you can't guarantee that you're not in Hanoi yet.

Is that the problem?

That's where it stands.

I know it is a problem.

Do you have any progress to report?

That's what we'd like to hear.

A little progress.

Of course, very little progress, Mr. President.

It is a very long wait.

We are trying to have contacts.

with every people who is in direct contact with them.

I said today, for the first time, one of our operators will have a direct contact with Paris, one of his owners, one of our men.

It may seem a very, very negative step, but it is very important.

It's our initiative.

They accept it.

But they have always rejected every entity.

When did they accept it?

It would be important.

Just recently.

Just recently, yes.

Last few days.

Last Friday.

Last Friday, they accepted to have the visit of my personal representative.

Who would see, who do they have on their side?

Would it be like one of their negotiators or a...

I don't know exactly.

I just got clear that they want to voice the main sensitives in Paris.

And we want everything to...

some confidence towards Vietnam because, of course, I must say that he considered us as a capitalist, rogue American organization, effortlessly intended to

have some some information for the american pilots and i hope to have next month a distribution from the uh come to geneva that would be the first time

Because I would like to explain to them that we are, for benefiting years, an organization that has tossed you to be a U.S. Secretary of State.

I mean, the International Red Cross has never

been on any side, except humanity.

That's quite true.

And we must try to convince them that we are, even if we are not neutral in our parts, neutral and impartial in our activity.

And I hope that perhaps they begin to understand that.

And that is one of our main reasons of concern, Mr. President,

We can be sure that we will not despair or hesitate.

We have, I must say, another reason for concern.

It is different sources from American sources.

We hear from alleged atrocities in South Vietnam.

And we don't have neither any possibility nor the desire or intention to make investigations to know if that is true or not.

This is a prison camp?

Generally, during the war, during the capture of prisoners towards the Indian population and so on.

And it's not our task to control it.

So, you will be sure, you will be sure that there's a lot of facts about you.

And, thank you.

I would like you here to suggest that you make a sign.

I know that every

Magnus Soviet, open this pocket to me.

I was also a soldier, an officer, and I had my part of the school of regulations and things like that.

And the base are not made by the soldiers.

They have no time.

They don't want to raise things like that.

very short very striking sentences that could be written in the front of the Capitol to

Remind every American soldier that there is a code of honor to be respected, that the man captured must have his life respected, that he must not be mistreated.

The civilian population must be protected, especially women and children.

A few words.

directly from their president to the last of his soldiers.

And I'm sure that by this public, uh, greatly improved not only American image throughout the world, but that could be a wonderful example, uh,

You know, perhaps that we have next month in Geneva a conference of government experts with the development and improvement of international humanitarian law.

I'm sure that American experts could see that.

I say, for example, to the other countries, if in every country there is a war,

at the highest level in order to begin, like that, a very short and striking code of honor in Afghanistan.

We should lay it in subject.

Yes.

We, uh, we have first had a... We have had a...

First your rules, you know.

You hear, for example, many stories, I mean, for example, I was to Congress, I went over to Laos, and they said to American pilots, they were going to try to bomb Laotian villages, and that they had an army in Laos, and that as a result, they'd be captured by Laotians.

It was a complete lie.

He knew it was a lie.

Because the actual matter, the fact of the matter was that they, of course, had opened their 50,000 North Vietnamese bombs.

They'd driven them out of the villages.

And it was only after they'd been driven out that any bombing attacks took place.

Finally, the difficulty is that

Except for individual acts, as you know them more, just as in society generally there are.

Most men are good.

They do their best.

They follow the rules.

There are always some bad ones.

And we try as we have in our own trials, you know.

I'm sure of those that violate the rules of mitigation.

That is what we believe.

That's what we're trying to do.

We're up against an anarchy, of course, that does not...

I'm sure you're well aware that has no rules.

56,000 village leaders and chiefs decapitated over the last 15 years.

500,000 starved to death in North Vietnam, and we visited the refugee camps there, and I've seen refugees in the North, the South, mostly Catholics.

So the possibilities of religion have gone up by the North.

They're utterly useless to...

They're in the East, at least the South Vietnamese, who are also Vietnamese.

And the Vietnamese, as a people, have different standards leading up to their communist address than those of us that live in our world.

The South Vietnamese have, of course, had inspections.

except to say that

to do our very best to make that very difficult for people because there's nothing in it for us in terms of territory or glory or none of the things that you're supposed to be involved in.

It is conducted as

and no words humane, but at least, in the least, two inhumane ways possible.

I think we'll find that, uh, maybe it is not well known that our men are so, so instructed to, uh, yeah.

There's a novel in my life, you know, for example, that we've had as a medium for three hours each morning.

Yeah, because this is a medium.

On this, on flowers, in which we have every, not only these,

top people and all the people who actually were engaged in the operations in India.

And we reviewed in great detail what the orders are, what the routes of engagement are, so that we could be absolutely sure that by inadvertence the charges couldn't be true, or that there couldn't be any misunderstanding in terms of our support.

about the, uh, policy.

I know it didn't raise this issue, but about the policy.

Well, let's go ahead.

That we are not bombing civilians.

And we've been through it.

Eric, if I hear you.

And we do give his acts to the congressional committees.

And I mention it in all these things.

I mean, if the president's concerned, we do what the formal order's good.

But we want to be clear with him all about it.

As you say, you never know with that soldier whether he's got it in his pocket.

And it's looking.

You're right.

Well, may I tell you, Mr. President, a little anecdote, but I wasn't enough to say again.

Obviously, it's good enough that I had a soldier.

And we were on the German border.

I asked him, what will you do if you are invaded by the Germans and if you capture the Germans?

And of course, with a smile, he answered me, well, I killed him.

But before that, I made him suffer.

And well, that, I always remember that because it was not a bad death.

But it's important to know that the last soldier, he had the same orders as every other soldier.

But I suppose that he had a direct warning.

from the highest level in the country would have not answered like that.

To my concern, would it be possible to have the last soldier directly bombarded?

Our work, of course, in our efforts toward the American prisoners would be greatly facilitated if the moral lineage

of the U.S. Army would be absolutely...

I know that there are no clean wars, sadly, but at least the government has been very clear, close, and positive.

Mr. McGregor told me, I don't know, maybe you want me to bring this up, Mr. McGregor, that you might have occasion to also want to see if I was about to hear you.

So the last time that you, no, not especially, on the general maintenance of the world today, in Pakistan,

where the government of Feinstein has told me a few days ago that there is no conflict, no need of relief, no need of international cross-intervention, then we have to solve another change in this attitude.

We have some concern with Brazil, the situation of these political detainees.

They are not allowed.

We visit many political detainees in many countries in the world.

They were on the rise last year to visit them in Greece.

It's not always the Middle East situation where it is very difficult for us to cause.

The Israeli government doesn't recognize the Geneva, the false Geneva Convention to protect the civilian population, occupied territory, applied in this situation.

And, uh, it seems there's some trouble.

Civilian, do you know the civilian population?

Like these in Westbury?

Uh, yes.

This is our main purpose.

We try to solve some of these problems by developing, improving these conventions.

And we are a very large program of expert meetings, conferences.

to try to adapt these conventions to the world today.

Because, you know, conventions were meant and prepared for conventional international conflict and not for the kind of conflict we know today, internal conflict, internal troubles.

To be able to have new, perhaps not new treaties, but new protocols permitting us

to act and to study also in internal countries for the protection

You don't have that jurisdiction now.

You don't?

I see.

But if it's an international war, it is well armed.

I see.

But any other war of armed conflict, it is not.

I see.

It's a war.

It can turn a man's life into a problem.

Tell me, how many people do you have?

I should know this information, but I'd like to hear your impression.

Do you have a bill for this type of operation in your office?

In just over 200, and 15 of them are professionals.

Professionals, professionals, right.

And the other people,

About 50 delegates from different countries, Middle East, and so on.

About a bit less than 300.

It's not very much.

Our province, we have a

I think that one of the things I think is very important

For me to speak quite frankly on the National Red Cross, like the New York inflation, this fight to maintain its credibility must have a simple standard.

They must not apply a different standard to the states than to apply to the European question.

Now, it's difficult for the Greeks and the very nature of things, let's put it, we just had a very good situation.

This Kelly case, you've probably read about this.

So he's been tried, and he's been convicted, and he's been sentenced, and he'll be reviewed, and I'll review it.

So then, you know, consequences of what we might see after we roll the record.

I don't get it, but I'm sure you know he would be getting a medal.

It's a way, that is a, that is a, we speak about the rules of engagement, and I realize, actually, that I speak as one of the plaguer background.

To me, I see, I see no good or worse.

It's only some that are less bad than others.

The point that I think is very important to have in mind here is the situation where the people of the United States are trying to follow the rules of engagement.

trying to convict them, 100 of them trying to convict her already.

This case became known.

I mean, it became public publicity, and it did.

We know the record of the person in the arrest.

I think the attitude of somebody like you, Tom, to the effect that, well, it's equally defiant.

I appreciated that.

And I would be less than honest if I were not to say that running the internet, she went across to play another game in America.

She didn't talk to both sides.

She just did everything she can.

But some, shall we say, in this terrible experience of war, and others perhaps, I think the...

No excuse for or defense of any atrocity whenever it occurs at Sephardic.

It does, however, point out the terrible fact which we're presently confronted on the prisoner situation.

It's not of the Adnan's concern, but there has been absolutely no cooperation with him tonight.

All we want about this is all the enemies.

what they had supposed to have, their prison camps.

And I asked them, do you saw them?

And what did they ask?

And the best indication that the prisoners must be treated pretty well there is that the North Vietnamese that are held south of Vietnam, when they ask them to go back, the great majority won't want to go.

They prefer to stay.

Now, again, I must tell you something.

As far as our actions are concerned, we're going to be very forthcoming.

We're willing to trade 10 per month.

We're willing to release an elaborate.

We're willing to do anything.

But I can also, it also should be well known that as long as there's an American prisoner there, an American presence, then it will be a very rough presence as far as they're concerned.

Well, we wish you well.

Thank you, Mr. President.

You have a very important position in your venomous idea.

I would say you have it all, Billy.

I understand you can get your work of humanity through the world and win many victories.

Thank you.

Nixon, Kissinger & Naville on International Committee of the Red Cross

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on April 20, 1971

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