On April 23, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:52 pm to 3:36 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 487-021 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
I think it was the day you met him.
Here we go.
You got it.
But we'll still find out.
We'll find out as we go forward.
There's a question around the farm.
I'm the Secretary of Agriculture.
Agriculture, who is considered to be sort of the farmer's representative of health and arms standards.
I'm in a discussion with the Secretary of Agriculture.
This is the reading.
And again, it's a couple of good things to read that it's
I don't think we're meeting the reorganization, which would possibly make you lose it.
Because yes, you have a lot of anti-corruption and some of our others.
I think that we just aren't all that turned on by reorganization.
They are turned on, especially if there's really anything to work on to compromise on the reorganization thing.
Agriculture is basically retained, you know what I mean?
That's right.
We don't give a shit about that.
You see, what I mean is I could put them all together, all the other things, and the departmental changes would be just a copy of the supply.
You're not going to pass it.
You've got to have it for our people.
You've got to get off the hook.
You've got to have your natural resources.
You've got to have that succession.
We've got to have it.
I don't get around anything else.
I mean, leather, commerce, statehood.
Transportation, all those things.
I mean, there's no constituency there.
It's very strong, see.
Business doesn't look at commerce.
This is too broad a thing anyway.
Transportation business and commerce and labor did not bother me.
Labor, the reason that
Whereas labor is a constituent.
Business doesn't give a damn.
Because they know the Department of Commerce doesn't give a damn.
Labor doesn't give a damn.
Labor does give a damn.
But we don't have the money.
We're going to get labor guys.
But the farmers are our constituent, you see.
It's there because, and also I think it's going to be the kind of support that we're going to have to have in order to have any chance to reel it.
See, there are too many senators from foreign states, too many congressmen, political strategists, somebody will not buy this thing.
We ought to recall the fallback position.
And if we negotiate it very soon, you know, and get the issue out of the way, then we wish to get Ervin's crew
You know since our last
And if you'd last, I'll show you how much activity we've managed since you last polled on Monday.
Actually, we've done, we had the ASME, which had enormous coverage.
We had the DAR, which had very good coverage.
The Division of Cats and Dogs.
So here you are, and then of course,
which had the consumer, I mean, the, but even I, because on Friday last week, all those things, this is a good indication of the problem.
Now, there's nothing in our set.
Some of that did a little, some of it on the ground.
The war thing, you know, shifts that much.
And the, as approved, doesn't shift.
Oh, the other one.
At 51, we've had a disapproval of the war.
That's what it dropped to right after it went to Laos.
That's what disapproval of the war showed.
Of course, if you find out, that's a ball of money.
That's what you're on.
That's what it is.
What was it?
41 to 47.
That's what it is now.
We didn't do one before that.
Oh, but Gallop did one.
What was his?
Gallop's was 41-46 in February, and his before that was last August was 55-32.
Approved.
55-32.
That was even before the, uh, day.
Huh?
Go back to Gallop.
You had some strange numbers in Gallop's.
You know, the ship had sold drafts for no reason.
Yeah.
Remember, that was the interesting thing.
Gallup was up to January of 17.
Yeah.
Gallup was 65-24.
That's actually, that's November 3rd.
November was 64-25, held through December and January.
Then in February it started down 53-32.
Right.
March 47-43.
Right.
April 46-41.
Right, that was just before Cambodia.
In May, after Cambodia, it soared back up 53-37.
The next time they did it, it was 55-32.
It was still up there.
Still the post-Cambodian thing.
Also, we did this on the July 1st thing, too.
And then the next time they did it was February when it went down to 41-46.
Did you reconcile the first 45, 42, or I don't know, in an earlier time?
Well, it would have been way back at the beginning.
It was April of 69.
It was 44, 24.
I mean, there was a very close one in that year, 1069.
I think it was about 48, 49.
4540 in September of 69.
Yeah, just before the riots.
What was it, 45 what?
4540.
There's still approval, but it was getting the hell out of us.
Yeah.
September 58, 32 in October.
That was the riots.
Yeah, it was the riots, but before the speech.
That's the riots helping us, too.
Then November of 6425, that was the stage.
I stayed there 65, 94.
in terms of, uh, of events.
But, uh, I think it does show, demonstrate again, with all of our efforts, as I said, there is a need to have a radio broadcast in so many large
with the good domestic thing that wrote Reagan, like, I think, Williamsburg's speech.
And with Reagan, the Chinese things don't cover it all.
It's like that.
It's only a little fact.
It's the only negative.
What?
The only negative in that period, really.
was the demonstration, because it wasn't the war.
There was no bad news in the war.
In fact, we captured Firebase 6 and did that thing.
That's right.
And the war news was out of the news.
In fact, for a week or so, the demonstration came on.
And they started pouring these pictures out every night.
Steaming them up, building them up, and building up the senators in there.
We feel doing everything they can.
I just don't know.
Maybe, uh...
I mean, we just, I think the idea of the counter-attack, that's what several of these congressmen said, I feel they are.
They can't get on.
That's the point.
The whole idea, which is to try and get the veterans to think it's what's hurting us, and it sure so is.
By getting...
any DFW in the American Legion to mobilize 1,000 Vietnam War veterans and get them to come here and demonstrate in support of the President.
Ask the media to give them the same amount of coverage.
Try it.
See what happens.
See, we'll finance it.
We'll put it together on all cases.
They can get 1,000.
Good kids, you know what I mean?
Get them to come and do the same, and have them come, you know, have good crown-cut kids and all that.
That's right.
The other way, I just wonder, if we make it.
The problem is, you remind people, or, that's right, we keep it going, but the other hand is, if you can do it fast, if you can do it next week, they're going to be demonstrating anyway, that week and the following week.
It's the media that's the problem, Tom.
It's the media that's cracking and cracking and cracking.
Because they were asking what to do.
Why don't you take a look at it?
The other thing I was wondering is whether it's worth unleashing the Vice President tomorrow.
Take the media on and their coverage of the veterans thing.
You've got the demonstration tomorrow.
It's going to not make the news anyway.
If the Vice President came on, he would tend to override some of that.
And make the Saturday TV and the Sunday papers.
He'd get in with the demonstration story.
Hitting the charge hard or young.
that might be better to let the story ride and then then when we get a better shot you can do it on sunday or make them and dominate the monday picture on tv you can hardly knock it
covering the demonstration on Saturday, but you sure can knock them on the covers if you're with the veterans.
Well, why don't you get the case made up?
I really think it's well done.
I don't think it's going to hurt him.
I mean, it's going to be hard, but of course, it's never going to hurt us.
Do you think?
See, rather than the war,
So by Monday, you can also get some ideas of how they pick figures on the crowd side.
In other words, go back through the line, how many minutes they've given, night after night, for this many people.
You come out here, others have been, as you know, everybody, building trades, you know, the commanders of the various organizations have been in representing millions of Americans.
One minute, they can say one lonely minute for the BMW representing millions of Americans.
It is cracking the best they can, I mean, but how are they doing that, you know?
the calls and letters and that sort of government, the closest weighing the possibility to the suit, you know, of talking to the network presidents again on the same basis as we've talked before and just saying with no threatening tone at all that it just doesn't understand.
And asking the honest question, if there were a thousand veterans out in the mall,
in support of the President's policies on the war, would they have given him this much coverage?
Or will they?
Or will they if they had come?
Can they be assured?
They're talking about coming, but they've asked, can they be assured of the same kind of coverage?
Better support or save that?
They want to bring 1,000.
They want to bring 1,000.
That's just as good as having him here.
That's right.
And we will say, will you give them equal coverage?
And then say, look, we've given this much and this much.
Will you give them equal coverage?
Will you pledge that?
Fair coverage.
They want to be competent and informed by those networks that they will not be provided with.
That gives something to the Vice President to say.
Get Colson on that today.
Haley called him today, he's sucking around about something, so he can talk to Haley about it.
And, uh, he could just hit, hit, uh, John Wilkinson.
That's correct.
I think that's good.
Or maybe he should have Al Shaney call him.
And then when they don't answer his call, Chuck can call and say, Al Shane, he's been in here.
He said he's been trying to reach you and can't get through.
He's here with me now.
I'd like you to talk to him.
And then just hand him the phone.
And just say, no, I wouldn't have Shane come.
I'd say, I'd get him on the phone and say, look, I've got here the head of the VFW.
Rainwater asked, what can I do?
Let's let that Rainwater go.
He said, no, you can follow him.
He said, I've got the chief, Rainwater, here.
He said, no, you can't do that.
He's just wondering if we can provide the coverage.
And without putting him on the phone, he says, I'm sitting here with the VFW to ask this question.
Okay, let's get out of here.
That's a good one.
Let me say, I'm not discouraged by this kind of thing.
I think it's expected.
If you put this sort of thing on, I know.
The way that the, the nets were first, they're so selective in there, you know, they put on the, they attract guys rather than the unattractive, you know, they're pretty kind and selective, you know, and sure, there are a lot of old, terrible and scruffy people, but the network got on that the first night, they cleaned up after that, you know, to assemble on, yeah, they tried, they got the veterans, just they had it out the rock for, you know, the registrar's here.
The what?
It was a draw.
To sum it up, Mr. President, they've, to all practical purposes, given in on the assault thing.
They've come back with a letter from Kosygin, and they're willing to have the exchange of letters published.
Up to now, they wanted it secret.
There's still one point that I will raise in a minute.
Under the summit
They reaffirmed the invitation, and they want it in September.
I mean, they agreed with us that it was in September.
They do not want an announcement now.
And they say there has to be some progress in Berlin.
They can never explain it to the Politburo.
I will need to set that up with myself.
I mean, deliberately, I say now.
He said, you're making a terrible mistake, I said.
If we had a goal, then the president, who never faced for little space, would recognize that it has to fit into this framework.
If you're trying to hold him up with Berlin as a means to get to the summit, you don't understand him.
I'm not even sure if you'll let me continue talking to you on Berlin under these circumstances.
I thought this was the only way of doing it, because we really cannot promise to be able to deliver on Berlin.
I mean, the Germans have screwed it up to such a fairly well that they may not be prepared to yield anything.
I'm seeing Paul this weekend.
He's up there.
I'll have a better estimate at that Woodstar conference.
My estimate is, oh, he was really...
Then he started explaining, oh, they're enthusiastic.
Don't you realize what a tremendous thing it is for us, first American president in the Soviet Union.
But we had four, two members in the Politburo.
I tried.
He said, you have only one man to convince.
I had to talk to all 15.
He said, to sell this was almost impossible.
That I even believed.
Because on this one, they had yielded 98%.
They practically accepted our positions on the assault.
They're giving us a hell of a lot more than... What is that?
Let's start from here with about the solidization.
Well, that we can settle next week.
We could publish the exchange of letters within a week.
It's better to publish the exchange of letters than have a press conference.
Now, the only point is this, Mr. President.
What they want
The only disputed point, there are some other nitpicks which I'll explain to you in a minute, but the disputed point is on the limitation Moscow against Washington, which will drive Scoop Jackson right up a wuss.
And, on the other hand, to bring in and say that it is almost impossible to explain to their military
that we can protect our missiles and they have to protect their population.
Well, I told him, well, they have 500 missiles protected by their Moscow system.
Well, he denies that.
So what I could propose to him on Monday is that they take out that one sentence which limits it to that and that we throw that to the negotiators, really understanding that
If they can't settle it, they'll have to yield, if that's what you want.
I think if they freeze their offensive weapons, that's the big thing.
If they freeze their offensive weapons, which they've agreed to do in this, then we can be... then we can agree to this...
then we can agree to this.
If they don't freeze their offensive weapons, it's a dead truth.
Well, we can get this done.
Well, if we accept this letter, the trouble with accepting this letter is that we just need the bureaucracy, silly, to move from the washing position to the safeguard position, and for us suddenly to reverse ourselves
So they have to make it positive.
They have to give us three or four weeks.
My suggestion to him would be let's leave that to the negotiators.
And I'll give him a private undertaking that after a few weeks you look at this.
I'll say if they agree to have it freeze on January 1st, then we'll agree to the NCAA.
On the other, that's something that we will privately undertake.
That's right.
That's the public statement.
Exactly.
That's the public statement, right?
Exactly.
Why don't you get back to it now, as time is in the essence here now.
We've got, you understand, we have a problem with transit.
All right.
What a benefit it is to look at this.
We always thought you said, you know, not worth a damn.
But the point is that in terms of our public relations,
we can do something like this at this time.
I don't want to get you wrong, but I don't want to horse around and put it out three weeks from now and it doesn't make a goddamn bit of difference.
That's my point.
That's the way.
You can work the thing out.
How would you...
I'll call them.
You can call them.
We've talked about it.
And I suggest to the department, why don't you put it that way, that I suggest to the department to provide you with your private undertaking on this and keep it out of the, let's not get specific in terms of the Moscow Washington.
I have an answer right away.
How would it work, though, in terms of exchange of letters and so forth?
How do we explain that to everybody?
Okay.
Bill is luckily out of the city next week.
I just decided.
So you just decided.
I just decided.
That you had to make some sort of... Oh, I'll say the reading came back.
You said the reading came back and you decided this was a good time.
Your instinct told you to make a move.
That's right.
And that...
I think it's good to make the move.
Well, he is out of the city for that.
That's another reason I have in mind.
Now is the time we don't have all the crapping around about Smith and all the rest of the stuff.
I've made the move.
We've got this generation.
It's great.
And we'll just say that I made a contact and we've got the deal.
Yes.
Your thought is that a change of letters is the deal.
Well, that's what they want now.
But they're willing to make it public, so it's the same as it is.
They probably have to go back again.
I can't guarantee.
Usually they meet on Thursdays.
They can settle it that quickly, but I think they probably can't.
Well, I understand why.
My point is, this is now one of those things where time is important just for other reasons.
And we're going to disappear.
We're going to change the sector.
We'll call it back.
We'll discuss it.
This is a compromise.
Let's get it done.
Seven ways a week.
Have the next one.
We also have the next one.
That we can almost certainly...
I don't suggest a delay.
It wouldn't take long enough.
Yeah.
My view is that I still call it back.
I see that as, you know, any eagerness, just use that, use it in front of the people you talk to over.
And I say, well, why not this?
You know, you can just say, you want to submit that to them?
Here's the deal.
That sounds good.
Another thing, though, that bothers me is that, well, if I can get it done on time, it's gone.
It can be done for two weeks.
All right.
See, he'll be gone for two weeks, Mr. President.
And if he hasn't, I think he's got the authority to settle this.
Good.
And we can... Good.
Except if he's going to take that mosque, I mean, the Washington one, he probably is going to be in a hurry to do that.
But he may have to work on it.
I think he can take it out if I give him the assurance that after they, after they, that they'll win on it.
I'll just tell him the facts.
I'll tell him we've just shifted our position.
But I'll want from him an assurance because you'll need that, I think, in time.
that they will start building on January 1st.
This year?
No.
All they agree in here is that they'll start building, but they didn't give today.
All right, fine.
What we do is we have the negotiators work this out.
Yeah.
And we agree to it.
That will be agreed to.
They'll settle that fairly quickly.
Or do you have something to talk about at the summit?
Yes.
What do you have left to talk about?
Oh, at the summit.
Oh, the final agreement on this.
That won't be all straightened out.
It will be signed at the summit.
I see.
And we'll have...
I understand what you mean.
I think we've got to have something.
I'll fix that.
I'll guarantee you that it won't be settled before...
You see, once we get this exchange done, Mr. President, the next thing, the next move you can make is to separate out the accidental issue and get that agreement signed to someone.
They've already offered it.
That you can get done in four weeks.
Well, you feel that they came out about like you expected, right?
Yeah, I thought, they're a cool bunch.
I thought, they are dying to get you to Moscow, Mr. President, and I think it's a mistake for us to promise them a Berlin agreement.
In fact, what I'm inclined to say when I see him is to say your reaction was just what I predicted, that you just make no commitments on Berlin when they are ready for the summit.
I said, if you think you're doing the President a favor about the summit, you absolutely are.
We're not going to pay any price for the summit.
We've made agreements in our mutual interest, or not at all.
But Dave wants you there.
About that, there's no doubt, because as soon as I got tough, because as soon as I got tough, he started, uh, pulling back, said, no, no, no, you misunderstood.
You have to tell the president we are renewing the invitation.
September is an excellent time.
Uh,
It's good times, still good weather.
Now, when do they want to announce?
Well, then I said, look, we would like to make the announcement four months ahead of time.
That's what we always do with state visits.
He said, well, two months is a little better.
I think they have a massive problem of getting their government to last.
I think they really want to.
They probably may need some shockers on their list.
But I think, I'm seeing Barr this weekend, and I think they know there'll be progress on Berlin, and they're using this to... Well, I think this one, I think the assault agreement...
The assault agreement is going to drive...
Because this, you saw, I don't blame you with this, what they started with.
This is 90% of what we need.
But I guess saying, I think you're absolutely right.
I think it's quite independent, like it is the other.
All right.
Leave Washington and New York out of it.
Leave Washington, Moscow out of it.
Do this work out and bring it on out at the proper time.
Is that what we do?
Yeah.
Provided they create a freeze on January 1st.
Done.
But even with that date, it can't be.
What the hell are you going to have to date it?
He can't put it in the gutter.
Huh?
That's to be negotiated.
The date is January 1st.
Of the trees.
Oh, I see.
But you want to have a private understanding.
I want him to agree.
We promise him we'll yield on this.
I want him to promise.
Yes.
That's what I had originally proposed.
And if we agree to the sum, we will set that date.
Right.
But otherwise, it's a secret.
Good.
Why don't you agree to the promise?
We believe your initiative.
Oh, I know.
I know.
And I think it's good to do it, though, while, uh, while the rioters are gone and everything.
In other words, that's, we've got a perfect reason.
I just, uh, I don't know, should we say he?
No.
I called him in.
Is that what we do?
Is that what we said?
We got the letter.
I sent a letter.
I mean, you see what I mean?
You've got to figure out how that... Well, you must read what the secretary said.
The briefing told me that this was done.
Yeah.
That he wanted me to know that his government is eager to have new approach.
Yeah.
And you then said that you were going to go and drop the ladder if you're going to do that.
And they were ready to consider it.
They were ready to consider this and change the ladder to an E3.
Fair enough.
Okay.
Good luck at Woodstock.
That's a good job.
Get a little rest.
I'm going to do that before the middle of July.
I mean, the bill hasn't had enough.
But now I want to be sure that both of these guys get out there in full 30 minutes.
So just delay the health and property department about five minutes.
Okay.
We'll bring in right at the time you should discuss.
I'll just keep it my way.
Okay.
435.
I'm pretty sure.
Okay.
Okay.