On May 7, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, John N. Mitchell, John B. Connally, and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:33 pm to 5:53 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 495-026 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
I think it was better if they did what they did.
I agree.
And had it come out the way that it did without any serious injuries,
No serious injuries.
Nobody was killed.
Everybody got to work.
Why don't you go to work?
The government kept going.
People wanted to protest.
They were right.
They got a chance to protest.
Constitutional rights.
Balls were in constitutional rights.
Violated.
No right to be not to be arrested.
In other words, I wasn't in a fair trial.
And that's why it was over.
But they all got it.
We aren't giving an inch on it over here.
You know, I told them they were right.
I said, don't give me an inch.
That's the party line over there.
I don't know if you saw it, but I didn't see it at all.
We analyzed all of the legal principles in the cases, and of course they supported us 100%.
And of course the courts here in the district, basically, their decisions were good.
They'd waffle on how long we could keep them and got mad about letting them out on bond when they were running them through on the other end.
I'm going to make a talk to the sheriff's in California on Monday.
Oh, good.
And I'm going to give him a chapter and verse on it.
Oh, boy.
Good.
I love it.
Yeah.
And it'll get the circulation.
I think, too, the idea of just getting around to it.
I got to get Wilson in with the man, just to thank him.
Oh, I'm good.
That's very good.
Because, uh, this idea that, uh, that we were, we were prepped to do, uh, not that I, as far as I'm concerned, I'm glad it was.
Oh, Walter Washington was, had pretty low visibility until we, I put the,
jacked to him and told him to go have a press conference and back up Wilson, which he did.
I guess he was worried that he didn't want to be on the side of the repression instead of Trump.
Well, no, I'm just talking to Walter.
I think he's absolutely and utterly honest, but he does better for us working the other side of the stretch.
And he, of course, proved everything that was done.
And with no criticism, even one son of his people started their civil rights groups and so forth.
So he played the game all right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
We've got to talk about this.
That's the reason.
Oh, my God, he's with us on this one.
Those labor guys, they had no use for these punks.
None.
There was a...
a Q&A after I got through talking over at the Ag Council Department today.
And a 17-year-old boy got up and wanted to know about certain aspects of it and made the statement that, uh, be sure that we didn't believe that everybody in his age group were of that type.
That most of his age group would approve of what was done here in Washington and the place went into spontaneous applause over there today.
Most of his age group would approve what police, what was done here.
No thanks.
Most of his age group would approve what was done in the city here today.
And the place went into spontaneous pause over there.
Referring to?
To the police activities here in the city.
So they said he was 17.
Okay, great.
And that was a wire story.
I don't know if it's... Or was he, as he asked?
It's not about the children out there.
I would presume he's traveling in the 4-H or some group on a similar location.
Isn't that, I just think that's great.
Uh, was Ollie able to get some pictures of that?
Yes, yes he did.
What, when the weather was good?
Oh yes, we went out there to the port often, you know.
So that's all.
No, he certainly did go out there a lot.
He's an impressive fellow, that Barlock.
Oh, he is, yes.
He's a hardliner when it comes to college campuses and these demonstrators.
You thought you were talking to Dr. McIntyre or Ted Axe?
What did he say?
Well, first of all, he said that he had seen
mexico with its problems in this area which they had more of than earlier than we did and that he of course came back onto the college campuses and first of all they thought they were destroying the american universities through their activities on the campuses and he blamed the college administrators and particularly the young professors just the same thing as you and i believe oh yes and then as if then he went on to the peacemaks and he said most of them don't know
peace and war or anything else.
He said there were a bunch of sheep being led around by the Troxiates and the Maoists and all the rest of it.
You know, just actually what's actually the case.
And very hard line on.
How did that get out of here?
Peace prize or something?
Isn't that great?
I thought I'd see you there.
It shows you that sometimes you're pretty good with credit.
At least a few weeks.
A few weeks.
See, apparently, it's a fabulous job with the balls.
It's a thing of the week.
There are millions of people who live because of what he's done now.
Because of what he's done.
That's too bad.
Oh, I approve that statement.
I assume that you checked it off.
Well, I particularly think it's good to repeat again the fact that we have confidence in our daughter and that they have a problem with inflation and that we're going to have to wait and see.
Correct.
Correct.
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we're doing the work off.
Sure.
Maybe we gotta do more exploration.
Brad, also, I don't think, I, I'm not, uh, opposed to the idea that every time something happens, we act as if, well, we're, we're responsible, and we're gonna send through things, and then we run around like chickens, but I gotta turn off the helmet.
Right.
Right.
Okay.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I, uh, I'm all for it.
I just...
I didn't mind that you were going to talk to him.
Yes, I know all about that, that you were going to talk to him.
As a matter of fact, too, he had been eating all the way a while, and I knew his problems, and I didn't care to do the other things.
Well, is this the only way to find out the other reasons, too?
No.
No.
Thank you, sir.
I said, Andy, if the support involves you in all this, and I don't think I'm better, you ought to stick around and build a benefit.
Right?
Right.
They are, too.
We, I mean, I had a chance for an hour, and he said he pledged all-out support on both the SSD thing next Wednesday or Wednesday, and also on Lockheed.
So he's all the way.
So he got that one lined up.
My gosh, this SSD.
We don't need a chance.
If we just get an even chance, that's, uh, I think we might make it.
Might make it.
Y'all.
Yes.
Oh.
We'd better be, uh, y'all.
We'd better be...
work out any kind of a deal with him.
I'm sure you can probably.
Yeah, we've got to have the ducks and crows before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that gives us a little time.
We'll talk before we go.
When do you go here?
Well, that's my answer.
Good.
We'll have plenty of chance to work it over.
We've got to sit down and have a strategy to talk about that whole thing now.
We'll see.
Oh, yeah, if you're free.
How's your schedule, Marty?
It's not, uh, I...
I have nothing urgent.
Good.
Good.
No need to go down there.
Well... Yeah.
Well, yeah.
Well, they've got somebody down there, John Wade.
And, uh, that group is, uh, they're important, but they're not that important.
Okay.
That's right.
Well...
Look, if you want, why don't you take the day off?
Maybe you ought to do that.
Maybe anyway.
Well, all right, fine.
Yeah.
Now, go on straight.
I don't know if I can hear it.
Wait a minute.
He's ready to play.
Yeah, they came in first with their veterans, and I gave them a positive play at least for a while, and then they came in with their big march.
That was, I suppose, relatively positive, according to them, if you look at the networks.
This week, really, people won't even remember the last event.
I think this week makes the whole damn thing look pretty sad.
But you're...
I quite agree, Mr. President.
I don't agree with the...
The week ago Saturday was too positive when you had Bella.
I didn't ask, but whatever.
I didn't ask.
We've got to network somehow.
But people say that stuff on television.
I get a little different.
Yeah, I do.
It may be that it's all a student reaction.
And, of course, the country is getting damned sick of demonstrations.
The interesting part of the one around the country the day, let's say, yesterday, or yesterday, the day before, there were very, very few demonstrations.
And the ones that they did have, like Boston and Sampson's government, the rest of them were much, much smaller than the ones before.
The police reacted to them just the same as they did here in Washington.
They arrested them up in front of them.
They tried to block the entrance of that federal building and the police had lost them.
That's right.
In Boston?
In San Francisco, they tried to block Market Street and they picked up 100 of them and arrested them.
So this just broke the background of the whole thing.
Is there a way to do it?
Is there a way to do it?
Now, we, uh, we just, uh, while the course is straight through, uh, have to see these things through.
I mean, we've got to see the board through, uh, the, uh, course, uh, through around the little metals and stuff, you know, and, uh, and, of course, it's got to come out right now.
Nice concern, I suppose.
The frustration is that the Rainy Davises and the Dillinger's and the rest of them experience is going to lead to more violence.
This has been the case in that group in Seattle with the Black Panthers and all the rest of them.
And it's been a miracle with all these bombings and firebombings.
So few people have been hurt.
Thank God.
What is your view about the
I think so.
I think we can program it well in advance.
He's good.
I mean, no use for him to speak.
Everybody's, all his friends have stood up for him.
And Johnny shouldn't stay beyond this time.
Don't you agree?
I think there's like a great fight every now and then.
We shouldn't have that last fight.
I think that the latest will be next, his birthday, the first of the year.
And I'd say we can start programming before then, next fall or whatever it is.
The...
agency, whatever problems there were in the personnel, all the network problems, because he was so autocratic.
When they started to attack the Bureau, pulled all those people together.
Pulled the personnel together, and there's a great number three man, I guess it is, Master Tolson.
Is it Sullivan?
Bill Sullivan, yeah.
He's a great, great fellow.
He could run the Bureau, but I don't think that he has the national stature that you would need.
He's much better in the type of work that he's doing than being the bureaucrat personified he has to be to run that operation.
That's what Jay had drooled over, the bureaucrat personified.
They could all learn from him.
Handles the drivers, everybody else.
One thing I'm sure is that our southern block of senators and congressmen in this demonstration really mobilized their support force.
I saw a note from a caller in here and others.
Tell us, Dennis, how you hear from them.
Oh, I get telegrams and phone calls.
Even Bob Berger sent me one this long and glowing as can be.
Yeah, right.
Quite a few of them.
I haven't seen them all because I've met some, but there's a lot of them there.
And what do you think of Chase?
He has got a staff up there that has come almost tired out of the Justice Department.
And most of them are there under Randy Clark.
So they have this complete...
uh, approach to this whole operation.
Uh, Civil Rights wanted us to distinguish from law enforcement, and I think they gave him a bad, uh, bad steer.
Uh, Teddy has been just looking in every way possible to, uh, try and get something that he can hang on us in this area of repression.
He was, uh, he was going to, uh,
The subcommittee's got to hold hearings on the wiretapping.
So instead of that, we've got John McClellan, who has a senior committee, to hold wiretap hearings, which will be on the organized crime wiretap hearings and so forth, which is going to take him out of the limelight.
But he's looking for anything, you know, in order to get publicity.
And these little boys are programming him, of course, like a bug.
Got a lot of knowledge of the Justice Department.
Sure.
Past activities, and I know where some of them are.
Did they go back to all of them?
Most of them have been, well, a couple of them go back to Bobby Kent.
But some of them are just in there under Andy Clark.
Blackjack is the location.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And while we leave the District of Columbia situation, I noticed a squib in the paper this morning that says that the
A lot of the officers who have been on duty for overtime, their overtime pay allowances run out.
Wouldn't it be a nice thought to take up with the mayor and Wilson to see if this might be rectified in some way?
I don't know what the complications are.
Well, the last time Kennedy called us up in his operations committee to review what we had done in the district,
And we put together this government-wide memorandum on all of the activities.
And it was sent up there.
He got the hearing.
He started the Senate planning.
He sent it.
Little boy Flew got his AA down here right in the middle of the activity on Tuesday.
Wanted to know when we'd be available for hearings on the operations that were going on down there.
So we told him, we'd tell him about that some day.
We have memorandums.
Everybody who was involved in this thing come and lie.
There's prepared memorandums of times, dates, activities, etc.
So we will do the same thing again and let him see where his
Inquiry comes out if he has guts enough to hold one.
Of course, that guy will.
No.
No.
Well, he takes into this one, John, and he can't get a bad issue out of it because all the networks, the left-wing press will try to build up the repression to give him new examples.
The country is fed up with the teeth of these damn extreme people, the disruptors.
I mean, they're fed up.
They don't like the war either.
They like disruptors more.
Aren't you thinking?
Well, that's the way it works.
On the political side, I had a chance to talk to Lee Knox.
He's a good man, I think.
I saw him rely on him.
He's solid, he's reliable, and his heart knows that he irritates some people.
Some he doesn't.
Louie Nunn told me, for instance, that he hasn't talked to Lee in two years.
And do you know why?
Louie Nunn ran on a platform of not raising taxes, and when he was elected governor, he found that the only way he could run the government was to raise taxes, so he put in a sales tax, which is
less damaging in Republican circles than any other tax, and Lee won't speak to them anymore.
Yeah, Nunn's middle, they call him.
Yeah, well, that's correct.
He leaves, he believes in the people, but that's all right.
He does.
He can sort of pull that Ohio thing together, and he has Illinois as a separate drama.
Yeah.
Pennsylvania is a, I don't know, that's what...
Well, what we're doing is talking to everybody to see where it all comes out.
Because when you get to Ohio and Indiana, Pennsylvania, we're going to have to have a Nixon organization.
We're going to pull in all the different factories into that Nixon organization, which will get you out of the...
save Republican Party hassles and power structure fights and so forth.
And with an incumbent president, this ought to be rather impractical.
This Louis Young is a very, very able guy.
Oh, yes, yes.
What can we do for him?
I understand that he wants to, there's this drill.
Is he going to work out something?
Or is Cooper retiring?
Yes, I presume the investorship will be available.
Uh, John Cooper came down with Orson.
Yep.
Yeah, was he on?
I don't know.
Uh-huh.
The warehouse?
Yep.
I would think that that Australian thing is still up in the air.
You see they have their primary down here, the 20th, down there, the 25th of May.
And, uh, it's targeted after that that they will get together.
John Cooper came by living on the box of the Derby.
and talked about it very openly in front of me.
He said, I presume you know about this and so forth.
Well, unless, uh, the way it would have been, Cooper resigned and taken a pastor's ship and, uh, believed he would go.
Well, he has to deal with the lieutenant governor.
Who's that?
The Democrat who would be delighted to be governor for a short period of time until, uh,
whenever they get sworn in there.
I think they have some on a date for being sworn in as the new governor.
And it'll all work out.
Louis is a master politician.
Oh, God.
And he will be a tremendous star of the Senate.
Yes, he'll be up there working and talking.
You know, he's going through that stage of so many people doing public office.
He's tired of it.
Some law firm in Lexington has made him a hell of a big offer and he says he doesn't care whether he does or doesn't.
He likes Washington less than anybody.
Yeah, but I mean, he would like to be in Senator Carl.
Oh yes, he would like to be in Senator Carl.
And if that thing doesn't work out, I would suggest that other problems as well, that you might look at him as the Secretary of Agriculture.
Yeah.
This guy is damn clever.
He's good on his feet.
He's got a good mind.
He knows tobacco.
He knows the Midwest.
He's from the heartland.
Along the Secretary of Agriculture and I, you know, there are many arguments about it being quite hard to find anybody, but I really think that if we look at
I understand you think we ought not to consider having both of you go to Italy.
I'm not sure of the problem.
Obviously, it's an asset of the Italians, and you know, it was loyal and all that sort of thing.
And the perspective of all of them trying to run the department.
Oh, I don't have that for a moment.
It's purely from the political point of view.
John Bowlby is one of the most effective people you have in government as far as getting out those ethnic groups, because he's been playing them all his life.
And he's got great contacts.
As far as running the department, I always thought that...
Oh, you never had a strong man over there to do the work, because John is of the type that has to do everything himself.
I know, and that's the reason he didn't have a strong man.
Well, perhaps, and maybe he's smart enough that his wife picked the weak ones, and he doesn't want a strong one.
But hell, you know, we had some of the stinking little litigation about the Three Sisters Bridge, or...
or about the air control, and he gets into it, and how he goes to the court and tells our lawyers how they should be arguing the case and everything else.
But on purely the political aspects of it,
John, both of you is one of the most effective people that we've had in 60 years.
Yeah, that's the thing we've got to think of.
You know, we've got to think of.
And then, of course, we do.
Just later, he did.
He did well there.
He was the home country, I want to say.
What do you think that Maury's fans...
would like to do is, I've heard that he would like possibly to be a national financial channel again or something.
I don't know.
I have certainly not heard that.
I can't remember.
Comeback keeps talking about that, but to me it's just incredible.
I know I'm... Yeah, I guess that's where I heard it from.
As a matter of fact, one of the
We talked earlier about the finance general.
Marty Sands, I tried to get him into doing the job again, and he wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole at that particular time.
Well, we wouldn't even think he'd come in if he did it.
At this time, it would have to be done on Saturday morning.
I'm not a person to say I don't like this or something like that.
There's got to be a need for one.
I'm not a ministerial president.
We have to assess the prospects of this bill and its contents.
before we see who is going to do what and what capacity.
Well, it's not that, but we may have opportunities to raise it in different forums for different purposes and so forth.
And we may not want to have our best man on the Republican National Committee.
Now, we've got John Rawlings who was working in that area putting together this fall dinner
that's known all over the country.
John is a good, hard-working, dedicated individual, opinionated as hell, but oil is all right.
Anybody who accomplishes anything is going to have a medium.
Yeah.
So there's a good test run on him to see how he's performing and what potentials he has.
And we haven't signed off with Wall of Fair yet, but I think we want to see... You want to see Greenlanders where they're putting a big man in there or just putting a catcher in, right?
Absolutely correct.
and has a big heart.
I said, well, getting together is the big money.
And Louie Hunt told me today, he told me that he just picked up $50,000 from Claude Weil, and he said that Claude Weil made an interesting observation.
He said, John Kennedy's the vice presidential candidate.
I said, I'll give you another $50,000.
All of the critics in the financial community are skeptical.
When he came in, it was just going a thousand percent over.
And Bill Martin was, you know, Bill Martin was here.
Yeah, all that group that you know.
He did a little on his coffee.
He's still scratched off.
He was over there many years ago.
I told him, I said, you and Rachel are both scratched off.
That's a lot of years ago.
Anyway, he was over and had lunch with me today and sent some of my group over there.
What does he think about it?
Oh, he just thinks it's great.
And he said, so does
the opinions of the financial community.
Just to turn it over to, as I say, those who are skeptical.
We got a good one.
We got a good one.
And he's, he was over here, but I had 40 congressmen, and then I saw the president sharing.
We got a good congressman.
We got this.
We've been talking for 10 minutes.
I'm proud of you.
I'm a Democrat.
I'm proud to be here.
I'm proud to be here.
The president's got a lot of courage.
You know, he's saying, come on, Vietnam, fight for these things.
That's the line he puts out all over.
Speaking of personnel, I understand that Packard gets a little...
Yes, he mentioned that.
The problem there, firstly, Packard is opposed to watching it.
It's a close question.
Well, from a political point of view, you can't do anything else.
That's nice business, but it's poor politics.
I think, too, that David's got, you know, his thing and so forth about Vietnam and a lot of other things.
I'm sure he's had a stand-up.
I'm aware that some of the kids have been fondly talking to Dave.
Dave, I guess, was one of them.
He was not here to sign, but just last night.
He's a good man, a lucky man.
He's the only man right now.
He's got the...
technical expertise and background, but it's almost invaluable in that.
It's an invaluable area.
Well, we have to find a way to, of course, with Packard, too, you've got to hold out three of them.
Actually, we will in fact, if he wants, sometime, of course, he can move up, you know.
I don't think there's any gap in position.
It would be better than that if we were able to accept the secretary and so on.
Let me come up with another subject.
What do you think about the Rogers?
And we survived it.
I think we can survive it because I think Henry has become resigned to it.
I don't think it's very helpful.
Henry's going to continue to handle some bills and continue to play his own game.
It's not a good situation, mainly because it forces me to go around robbing the barn to accomplish very simple things.
And I'm always trying to do that.
I'm always having to either sue Henry or Bill or, of course, that's part of the job.
But it is a job, and it will have to be dealt with at a certain time.
Bill, of course, Bill cannot leave.
and should not control it.
He has a picture.
Something's gotta happen.
He's gonna get one out of the Mideast.
The Mideast thing, I left Bill at his head there for the reason that he thinks he can.
He thinks he can negotiate.
Well, that's a part of the problem.
If it doesn't happen, then we'll have to just screw around some more with it.
But the difficulty of Bill's case, and it's,
There's a lot of old members signed to it that are coming to those cases.
We just can't bring ourselves to recognize that the State Department and Foreign Services are not our friends and also to sort of settle a zone
personal ambitions to, you know, desire for attention and praise and everything, to what we had to have.
Laird is the same way, but that isn't the same problem.
I mean, Laird just, you know, he's a political man.
You know, we did that with Laird.
But in Bill's case, you know, John, it just isn't...
The reason the economy is so poor, to a certain extent, is the use of foreign policy.
I shouldn't have to carry the total, constantly dependent foreign policy in this country.
The only time Bill ever steps out of jail is when it's an easy one.
I've been following Bill very closely in this.
And I think Bill, for the first time in the last two weeks, is beginning to understand the problem.
And you've not watched it.
You've had all the way since.
How much do you think he understands it?
Why do I think he understands it?
Because he's not pushing either side very hard.
He understands now that you just can't push the Israelis back to the 67 lines under the 67 resolution and get away with it.
And this, of course, is all the damn charts and maps and all the rest of it with such minor exceptions.
I think his statements that he's made over there are, in fact, quite far away from the original concept that was said to him by Sisco or whoever it was to have this thing was to happen.
I make you wrong because I
We'll see when he comes back Monday, but I think the main thing, and maybe he's just assertive, keep it at this meta-meta-level as long as we can.
Keep the Russians out.
Keep the Israelis from getting hysterical about the reason, about their objections to it.
Keep talking to the Egyptians.
And that's all I'm going to do.
Not a hell of a lot is going to really happen.
No, unless you can start the ploy of negotiating on the canal.
Well, yes.
I don't get it.
He's supposed to be bigger than both of them, but I haven't seen anything yet.
Foreign policy.
Can I also make another observation?
I suggested to Henry before your last statement on Vietnam, that is the last trooper's role statement, that you consider the desirability
of laying out on the table these behind-the-scenes negotiations.
Yeah, we did that last year.
Yeah.
Which showed a withdrawal timetable with prisoners, all the rest of it.
Henry tells me you've got something going again in this area.
Well, let me tell you, I don't know whether it's the one or the other.
Uh, the, uh, the, uh, nothing has happened yet, but, uh, we, we've offered, in fact, to the, to the, they want to have a talk, but I don't think it was May, the 16th of May, and they have not responded.
I don't know.
I guess they won't.
I'm not as optimistic about the certain things Henry is.
Because I think that as they see that we're going to get out anyway, I don't think there's a hell of a lot of incentive for them to talk.
That's what I think.
The only possibility of anything happening here is, and it is also quite clear, is that they will be concerned about the Chinese and the Russians if we, if, for example, something develops a breakthrough on the salt, which is possible.
If something develops whereby
the Chinese thing falls a bit more, which is possible.
Then, uh, that may have something to do with that.
I don't think it's ever going to lie.
Uh, now, that's, that's something.
Now, if they do not need, if they don't have enough money, then I'm inclined to think that we have to publicly make the offer.
What, what brought it up again was sort of a rare man-sale statement yesterday.
and some of the others not.
You could go before the country and say, hell, we went to them with time tables to get out of there, which were in those discussions, you know.
And all the rest of it, you can make a case that you've been trying to do the very same thing that all these people are opting for.
Put it right before them.
We want to return to them.
to offer again.
That's my view.
My view is to offer.
See, the game is to offer at this time, not just not to talk about the political side, but not to talk about all of the China conference and all that stuff, none of which is possible, but to simply say, in return for a ceasefire, only in which we've got to have
If we would, at least at a time for withdrawal, we got a ceasefire.
That's why it's an issue.
That's why it's a ceasefire.
So on the basis of a ceasefire, return for a ceasefire, we'll give you a date for withdrawal.
Return to ceasefire in person.
In person.
That's all.
Now, that, I think, we'll be prepared to do.
My guess is that we'll be prepared to do that in June.
That'll affect all the steam out of that stuff over there.
We are .
One thing that is going on is that .
I think about the committee meeting, too, and people there after that meeting, he went out and said he is .
that the United States turn over all ground combat responsibility to Zafira when we use that as a way to address things like that.
That would be a good thing to say, that that would get people out of, you know, at least there in two years after another meeting.
Now, whether that is held in the eighth or whether we do that two weeks after the eighth of June, we'll depend on whether anything comes out of this or not.
I don't think so.
I think that you're likely to get to, you're quite likely to get
I think the Russians are clear of the Chinese situation, so I think they might want to settle on salt.
That would be good.
I think that as far as Vietnam is concerned, they're going to have to just play their own game.
And my feeling is, some of the viewers, if they don't nibble on this idea of another meeting, and if there's another meeting time, Joe Henry is going to be one meeting, he makes an offer, and another one will accept it, and otherwise they all leave.
The grant is not evacuated.
Then what we have to do is you'll have to lay off what we've offered and then make a final offer.
And then that's it.
Now what the hell can people complain about?
I can't tell you.
Can anybody say if we offer, we can't say we'll get out on the 1st of January, but we will say six months after that, we'll say, or eight months after that.
Yeah, I don't think you really have to put your timetables down.
What you'll say is that if they will do this and this, we will provide a timetable for the withdrawal.
Give them a timetable.
I don't think insurance is a timetable of their intent.
They didn't talk, they didn't fix it up.
They, it's all a, it's all, the Senate fixed it up, that's true.
That was a year ago, those negotiations.
Yes, sir.
They're in a much worse position now than they were a year ago.
Yes, sir.
They went on with female illiteracy at different times.
Back with Rogers.
Yes, sir.
That was the original problem with Rogers.
He didn't know about it.
You can blow the cover on that.
We, for that reason, rather than saying we've offered them all that, we could just say we have offered this in private sessions without saying what they are.
We have offered this, that, and the other thing in private conferences.
Well, Bruce, Bruce is the one in the audience.
I had a problem here yesterday, it's my secretary, and we talked to Bruce, and I was robbing him, and the relationship there is so unhealthy.
It's just no way to run rail.
Well, on the other hand, there's a hell of a lot of things the State Department's doing that we never hear about over here.
So it's a double game.
Well, no, no, no.
I don't...
I'm not quite as... We frankly need a Secretary of State who will work just as simple as I am.
And that means we're in the White House.
They don't... And the only way they can do that is to control that department.
It's the only way it will work.
He's a personable, intelligent guy.
To me, it's sickening that he has this characteristic of personal aggrandizement.
He's got a problem with humanity, which is almost unbelievable.
Now, I can understand that.
And he doesn't need it, because he's got everything.
He's made several billion dollars, I mean, up to hell.
So he's got money.
He's got press releases.
In general, the United States, he's never run for office.
Everything he has is owed to other people in the United States.
But having been in a cabinet before,
He must have known that it takes loyalty to make these things work.
So I just can't understand him coming in here and doing this.
Some guy who came in for the first time thought you could be a freewheeler at a cabinet post.
That's a very bad weakness of character.
I'm going to talk to him when he comes in.
It's not the initial report.
I'm going to try to keep you out there.
We're ready.
Let's assume nothing happens.
Let's assume the Russians don't talk to the Chinese, don't do anything, and so forth.
We're still not in bad shape.
We're on the downhill turn as far as we're not concerned, John.
I mean, the bitter experience of the Laotian thing was we realized as a result that we haven't had a spring offensive.
The report today out of there is that they never emissioned a bulletin because it doesn't happen in the whole core area, the whole area of command over there.
This week's catchment should be down to the record.
Maybe it should drop to 68 down to the levels that we had before.
But you see, normally at this period of time, catchments are much higher because it's a good time to fight.
Well, no, they've actually had these, Buddha's Birthday and all these other, May Day and all the rest of them, where they show their strength during the last week or ten days.
They're in deep growth.
They're in a hell of a place to remain.
And for that reason, it's natural.
And for that reason, it's natural.
And for that reason, it's natural.
And for that reason, it's natural.
And for that reason, it's natural.
And for that reason, it's natural.
And for that reason, it's natural.
And for that reason, it's natural.
It's the same case we've had before, except it's getting less viable argument.
And that is, if we get out of there before the harbors build up, they're going to have a still better chance.
But that argument's fast-running.
They are, but it's getting goddamn good, though.
They're handling themselves extremely well.
I agree.
This week, I read it a little bit, of course, this week we are, and even our popular forces, a couple of them, they arrived pretty good, and they came in there.
They are just a bigger army than they have.
They've got an Air Force, they've got a Navy.
They're not going to be any pushover for these people.
Oh, I quite agree, yeah.
Yeah, a whole lot.
And if they get those people to go into that Oshawa Valley...
which they've been doing and are planning a bigger scale, you know that they've got good morale in there because that's a place where we even have trouble.
I'll say.
And they are doing it by themselves with American Air support.
I agree.
We will have to do something in terms of an offer.
We'll do it.
No, no, no, we must do it in June at the critical times.
But something doesn't involve quite June 8th.
And I think, given the announcement that the American combat role will end up at the end of the year, that will be good.
Now, of course, there will still be some casualties, but it will be way down, because they will have the ground combat responsibilities, and Wilson will be there protecting that remaining portion.
You're on, John.
I do know.
Except for a special force of prisoners.
We've got to be on the line.
We can't be just before the election.
That's too obvious.
And I know the politics here.
And three months is going to make that no serious.
Not the military side.
Well, on the political side.
It may.
It may not do.
I think the South Vietnamese in three months is going to break them down.
They aren't going to survive anyway, John.
They'll survive that long.
They're not going to be able to overrun the country.
No, but it would take the North two years to build up, two, three years enough to build up to even make a serious impression on South Vietnam.
I think we'd come in and take the whole territory.
Every course I make, how's he doing these days?
I saw he's primarily on the revenue check and so forth.
He's not taking the relax that you gave him for a while.
Well, he's thinking.
Part of it is giving him to relax.
He's been rifle-shotting instead of the buckshot approach.
Good.
And this is much better, because he gets his specifics and his facts, and they can't argue with him as if you take on the whole deal.
The media.
The media, that's right.
Yeah.
The polls down south, of course, are just showing that they're a lot more popular than ever.
And Louie Nunn was telling me about a poll that ran down in Kentucky there.
Well, of course, Louie said his popularity was great, which it is.
Everybody likes him.
You're sort of way up there.
And Agnew's was way out.
Louie, uh, Louie was right.
Yeah.
But that was all their close friends and so forth, recently close.
Uh, I think the subject matter of Agnew is just dropped out.
Yep.
If you all are well aware, we're going to have to take Harvard and Putin.
just in cold, jerky terms, not in terms of popularity and all that sort of thing, but in cold, jerky terms, having in mind the fact that if we move along reasonably well in foreign policy, and if the economy moves along as we trust it will, then our opponents will say, all right, you're dead.
Back away.
Yeah, well, he, as I keep saying, is a great insurance policy against a model rating or anybody on the right side.
Yes.
He's just absolute insurance.
And this is a very hard thing to take him on.
That's correct.
And this is, as you have pointed out, is a judgment that is going to be made in the summer of 72, not now, and reassess your whole ballgame to see where you are.
By that time, you'll have polls, you'll have primaries, and you'll see where the ducks are.
Yes, I'm sure any friends will be able to do one hell of a fight.
I should think.
Yes, sir.
And they've got to have a fight.
I mean, how can a veteran, Rob Humphrey, Muskie, Muskie Humphrey, Teddy, now her buddy, there's a three-way race, over there.
You're already snapping around Jackson, of course.
It's going to be a hell of a fight.
And world for metal.
Oh, yes.
Yes.
Is Wilbur actually going to the top?
Yep.
Or the second?
Nope, so he's going to the top.
He's got a lot of people working down in Arkansas and Tennessee and places like that, and they're trying to expand.
And Wilbur, of course, might feel that he could be the compromise candidate.
Somewhere in between Jackson and somebody that would come out of that other pack.
Yeah.
How do you feel about that?
We've got enough problems with him as it is.
What?
We've got enough problems with him as it is, and I think we ought to continue to assess that situation.
Yeah, yeah.
And... See, he said, I'll approach us and talk to him.
He's putting in his own revenue-sharing plans now.
He's putting in his own revenue-sharing plans, as he calls them.
But I think John Connolly's assessment of that situation is actually right.
They're just going to hold all that in abeyance and spend your budgetary appropriate budget and then say, okay, you still want $5 billion on top of it.
The man with a tremendous ego.
Yes.
Wilbur Melton.
Yes.
Tremendous ego.
And if he can be pushed in this direction by some of those people down there, I think he will live on his own ego and really make a go at it.
I would say, look, try looking at it politically, but
In terms of getting nominated, he has problems in New York, Ohio, California, Illinois complex.
That's really where it comes down to.
Not so much because of what he stands for, actually.
It's not true.
Basically, I think because
I don't think that Mills' personality is something that is particularly appealing to that party.
And as a matter of fact, the man, really, who would be, if they had good sense to realize it, the weed of the man that could be the Democratic candidate, and it would be unbeatable.
You and I talked about that.
He's the best man that goes.
The best man is not going to want him to make the best president.
You compare him with Mills.
Mills is smart and clever and all that, but Conner is much stronger than you.
Well, Wilbur Mills is a pretty good lawyer, but I don't believe he's taken a great deal of interest in anything except this field that he's in up there, taxes and appropriations and things like that.
And you say his personality is not one.
He's short and flawed.
And when they try on his voting record on some of these issues in the civil rights field and others, I'm sure they could just crucify him in Massachusetts.
Yeah.
I think it's a...
I think we have one hell of a personality problem.
I'm going to say a personality problem.
I'm going to say a personality problem.
I'm going to say a personality problem.
Interesting on those polls as to how they run versus you.
That's why Kennedy's so far down and Muskie's so far up, comparatively.
Yeah.
Yeah, when they start to run in the Democratic Party against each other, as you say, they're frankly on a par.
No, he doesn't.
And he's trying to be all things to all people, and that's when he starts expressing opinions.
Humphrey's a hell of a lot smarter than us.
Humphrey is a, Humphrey is a, in my opinion, he was a figure at times, but he's a smart fellow.
And, uh, of course, it's not all that Irish boxing.
God, he's, he's got some bad advice.
It's funny to think that the country we couldn't consider like Teddy Kennedy in this office.
Because, God, my,
Trust me, I'm absolutely frightened.
And Humphrey, in my mind, is just as bad because he's emotionally unstable.
I know.
I firmly believe...
Knowing what I do about Hubert Humphrey, that he would sit at this desk and just tremble.
He'd be like Carl Albert up there.
Did you notice after the conversation that Les and Jerry had here the other day about Carl Albert, that he waffled both sides of chasing the demonstrators off the Capitol?
He said once that he did chase them off, and then he said he didn't chase them off.
Uh, he says he may not be able to, uh, you know, I think he might crack.
People don't crack because they take strong positions.
People crack because they don't.
It's the indecision that tells them.
And I think the author just can't pick up his damn mind.
Well, I think that's what Hubert Humphrey would say as the president.
And the president might get to him.
Decisions he probably wouldn't make, wouldn't face up to.
And that's the worst thing you can do to be an executive, is not to make decisions.
Plus, pretty much not in our hands, though a middle-staff can serve extended service.
How good do you want it to look, or how bad, or how much do you want to cooperate?
I don't know.
I haven't seen the latest deal.
We can get a deal on revenue sharing.
We ought to make it.
Is anyone better?
Of course, it depends on what type of deal.
uh, well, this, they chose to target those whereby, basically what we would do is in fact be revenue sharing for the six Special revenue sharing?
All the revenue sharing covering those six things.
In other words, well, you've got to use it for these six things, giving them that, which is basically general revenue sharing.
Now, what else can you do besides those six special revenue sharing?
That would be, you would have $5 million.
You don't want to parcel it out on P6.
You should leave those there.
And you'd have $5 million on the top to be used any way they want.
Among those six purposes.
See, they couldn't use it presumably then for tax cuts or something like that.
And for what purposes?
And all they do then is take and use the five billion for those purposes and transfer other dollars into what their problem is.
Well, so the city would probably have to make some kind of execution.
I would follow.
Self-oriented guy.
He's got this great reputation in the States.
Wilbur's always been a crack.
Oh, and he's taken that Johnny Burns into his TV.
Poor Johnny.
Johnny's a smart fellow, too.
Mm-hmm.
Got it.
And that's too smooth for him.
There must be a tremendous amount of abundance that's come out of his association with Wilbur.
Could be.
Do you listen to me, Burns?
I'll stand up and be a man on this show.
Absolutely, Lee.
Absolutely.
God, it's terrible what you're doing here.
Let's get back to the whole leadership operation.
Yeah.
Well, we're going to go.
It's that way on the, if you know.
On the SST.
Lockheed and SST.
I think we've got an even chance to take SST in the House, and I think that would be a hell of a thing.
If we could do it.
Well, we need to do about it.
He said he supported all of them.
Well, of course I have.
I said, I want to, I put a culture because we had to have the votes.
And I said, we have, I don't know.
And he said, well, you have to be the first to get up here and work the boys over.
Or as they'll be.
Rather than go into Atlanta.
I'll tell you, John.
We ought to get Sue Jackson and Madison to work over their cover parts in the Senate.
Say, well, here we'll support Lockheed, but only if you support SST.
It's got to be that way.
Big time, Cranston, Ambrose.
Stand up.
Yeah, good parlay.
And the interesting part about the SST will be coming up first.
That's right.
They have to stand up on that.
And if they don't, they...
I think we'll get him to play golf.
He's today, again, just getting Humphrey cut off for switching on him.
So he was promised, you know, to go to work.
I respect Humphrey on that one.
Of course, he'll be for Humphrey, be in any contest, because he's basically part of the governor.
Yes, he is that, and I guess he always will be, but...
I have a lot of respect for him, you know.
Not a man like Derrick Mayne.
Mayne is a very patriotic, strong man.
You know what I mean?
He really is.
We haven't had the problems we've had with labor for the past, labor for the future.
But the Rockefeller thing, you've got that pretty well under control.
I think the main thing is not to let Rockefeller go away.
You know, you don't want to let him run around and start to build a Rockefeller pool.
If so, he is going to follow the question.
Oh, he knows that.
He knows that.
But it's the nature of the species, and both Reagan and Rockefeller, there's always that 900th chance that all might come about.
Yeah, he is.
Yeah, he is.
You know, sometimes.
But...
I know you're gonna run.
Unless the good Lord takes you some other place.
I know this damn well because of what we've talked about in upcoming events.
And as I say, I know that
Rockefeller among all is a realist.
He's realistic enough to know that there isn't going to be any possibilities under any circumstances if you want to do it.
I'd like to know that that's what we're planning on and that's what we're organizing for.
It's just too bad we have to go through the agonies.
That's just the primary stuff of the world.
I am, we can't decide this now, but my view, John, is that it's primary stuff.
Well, I think we have to end all the crime crimes.
I mean, we can't.
You have to do it.
You can't extend it.
It will not work.
I do not think that I should go into those states.
I just think if you go into those states, it's just not the right thing to do.
Don't you think so?
Absolutely, and I don't think there'll be any necessity for it.
And all the...
So that we have votes here and there, let's go now.
You always have a point against me.
Do you want to have a bit of a look forward to it?
It takes a while.
Why don't you start off with my hamster in Florida?
We should do well both there.
Okay.
We can have our surrogates going around whipping up whatever has to be whipped up.
Probably wouldn't be a fair leader.
In a second.
Three.
Ten.
Three.
There's never going to be a three.
No, I don't think he has the speed to win.
Well, Howard has that white problem.
Howard is not a good politician.
He seems to be.
He's a great politician.
Oh, he's smart, but he's not a good politician.
And to be effective in the Senate, you've got to be a good politician.
Howard's very clever, very able.
Good politician.
Good mind.
Makes a good speaker.
Yeah.
But he is not a wheeler and dealer.
You've got to have... You know, somebody's got to step up and beat Griffin, doesn't he?
Griffin passes him too much.
How do you think?
Well, Bobby Griffin has got a hell of a tough race out there.
He may not be around to begin with.
And he is vacillating because of some problem.
And he should.
I understand that.
I understand that.
We want him to win.
He's a good man.
He's a good man.
That's what I meant.
Even if he won, he isn't good.
I don't know.
Maybe he's good.
I don't know.
Somebody always, as you know, looking ahead, Scott should not be taking his leave after this next election.
Don't you agree?
Quite.
I quite agree.
I'm just about to have to go.
Yes, and he's got an extremely ambitious wife, you know.
Extremely ambitious.
She just wanted to push him into running for the Senate.
And she will have him running for president during your second term.
Well, I don't know if you're the leader
That may be a little different.
I don't know.
That's what you want, somebody... Oh, I see, yeah.
Not for themselves.
You've got to look over that, Senator.
Well, that's far down the road.
By that time, somebody will... Maybe a marriage.
Quite possible, but... Maybe a tree.
Maybe the most solid guy we've got, if we can re-elect him.
I don't know.
It's turned out well.
Jerry Ford has amazed me.
My experiences with Jerry Ford during the campaign, he did everything ass-backwards.
Everything ass-backwards.
But I want to tell you, he's absolutely solid, and my respect for him has gone up as an operator, as an intellect, or his intellect is higher than I ever thought it was.
And I'm quite impressed with him.
I don't see of any case where he has ever done anything without what was in your interest.
How would I know?
Totally loyal, yeah.
What a pleasure.
I don't care.
I don't know.
He gets his troops moving pretty good with the lack of assistance that he has.
That's right.
Poor old Les and John Anderson and Johnny Rhodes and... That's just weak.
Yeah.
Weak.
Well, Anderson's smart.
But he's never on our side.
Never with us.
Rose is on our side.
He's not smart.
Johnny Roach never wants to get into a controversy over anything.
Does he?
Hell no.
This would be his last two, you know.
He shouldn't just stay on forever.
I can see he's a...
It's really a shame when you look over that Senate and the House to see what little leadership there is.
Teddy Kennedy could have ever become the weapon.
Yeah.
Bobby Berger is a pretty good guy.
Yes, he is.
He ought to be reported.
Harry would ought to be reported.
He would if we could arrange the seniority.
Yeah, I think so.
And a hell of a lot of Southerners would do the same thing.
But there's no possibility.
All the Republicans are too damn selfish.
That's right.
They're gonna be a minority.
They'll be in line.
They'll be a majority.
Yeah.
Well, we may have to trust a few arms that way, too, someday.
This is a hell of a bit of a country.
Incredible.
Spend all your time fighting with your fellow Americans.
There's a lady friend of ours who's coming to this area tonight whose husband just put through some sort of an deal with the house and she's going to have dinner with us the other night.
He's sending in 50,000 bucks.
Oh, that's great.
I'll just keep up with what you're doing.
We, uh, as I say, you, uh, I'm here to keep all of us involved.
We're starting to get a lot of politics.
I hope you all, it's great.
I'm involved in these damn things.
I got too many of you.
So you should, I'll show them over to you if you just hold their hands.
That's it.
I think we're coming home pretty quick.
Like we've done, I'm going to talk to you.
I told them to talk to you.
I know.
Well, that's the way it should have been, because they thought you were right.
Yeah, I think we started out better before you.
That's just, well, it shouldn't be happening.
It shouldn't be at all.
I'm going to get the country right.
And that committee will serve us on the juicy, I guess.
Who?
The committee.
Know anything about it?
I've heard of it.
Well, it'll be good, because we've got people like Eric Johnson
Oh, good.
Oh, hello again.
I think we'll talk about that.
Yes, sir.
I'm a rocker.
I don't do rockies, but you said I was pretty good.
Yeah, I was a little bit good.
Very good.
Also catch up on some of the social updates.
If you can call and say hi, it would be a nice thing.
I think we're going to go to the platform and have a culture day.
Keep it breathing.
Breathe.
Now, we're going to get some water.
We're going to get some water.
We're going to get some water.
We're going to get some water.
We're going to get some water.