Nixon, Shultz & Ehrlichman on Revenue Sharing and Welfare Reform

1:56:46He wants a little more time than a lot of politics.
1:56:56Well, as we wrote down our understanding, I said, I think that's a fair representation of our discussion.
1:57:12He said he'd like to have Larry Woodward, one of his staffers, a top staffer, look at it.
1:57:19And then they sent word.
1:57:20I didn't talk to him directly.
1:57:23But he wanted to look at it a little bit longer before he came down here.
1:57:28It was clear as I could to him that the idea of the meeting would not be to act as though this was something that I didn't understand and discussed, but to come to an agreement of some kind on it.
1:57:41So he shouldn't come to breakfast unless he was going to pay for his breakfast.
1:57:48Not to come to our group.
1:57:49So he understands that.
1:57:50He loves
1:58:01the day we were trying to beat, let's say.
1:58:03I'm not going to do all that.
1:58:06Well, I'll just, I'll get back to him and ask him why he doesn't think he'll be ready for that.
1:58:14Okay.
1:58:18The song John, the question, one question he raised with me that he had certainly used about before goes back to Lindsay.
1:58:27And apparently he's had discussions with Lindsay
1:58:31has said, if you give us any money, put some kind of a hooker in it that makes it hard for us to pay it out in wage increases.
1:58:40Because if it comes to New York, it'll just go out in wage increases.
1:58:44And John says the answer to that is to get a mayor with some backbone and some force.
1:58:52And the problem of government pay increases is a real problem.
1:58:59Now that's something that mayors have to work out as independent of this issue.
1:59:03But anyway, that may be some point of discussion.
1:59:07Okay.
1:59:08We may be making some headway with special manpower revenue sharing.
1:59:13Today I'm on the vote and the rules committee.
1:59:17The vote and the rules committee.
1:59:18At the same time, Javis has invited Jim Hudson to come to a private dinner with he and Nelson.
1:59:30uh, Javits saying that, uh, they would like to put through the first special revenue sharing and manpower for Javits.
1:59:38Perhaps, uh, I'm over here and we'll talk it over.
1:59:42Hudson told me Saturday that he thought there was something strange going on because he testified on special, uh, manpower revenue sharing.
1:59:51Said it was sort of the gentlest, easiest questioning he's ever had from a Senate committee and they were all kind of throwing out good points.
2:00:00Nice.
2:00:00And so he thought, hmm, something is up here.
2:00:04So it may be that there's a little motion somewhere there.
2:00:09I had talked with Javits at some length about this.
2:00:13And also in the discussion with Mills about H.R.
2:00:171, the welfare reform, I had a lengthy conversation with him about his stake in a decent manpower arrangement because the welfare reform bill
2:00:28...wouldn't work well unless you had a good manpower training scheme.
2:00:31And the one that they were cooking up wasn't very good.
2:00:36So he called Carl Perkins on the phone while I was there.
2:00:40And then he apparently wrote him a long three-page letter about this.
2:00:46There may be something stirring there that we don't know about, but I think that's the... ...analyzes politics carefully, as I said at the end of the day.
2:00:57He will cooperate with us for a very diabolical reason.
2:01:02As far as his betterment is coming, the way for him to be men is to prove that he can govern, that he can lead.
2:01:11Here all of them are out bitching, carting, criticizing.
2:01:16And here Wilbur Mills rises above it all and gets something done, you see.
2:01:22He's going to come up with something.
2:01:24Now we'll have that too.
2:01:26In the final analysis though,
2:01:28The question is, as far as he's concerned, how...
2:01:33So it may be that there's...
2:01:57a little motion somewhere there.
2:01:59I had talked with Javits at some length about this.
2:02:03And also, in the discussion with Mills about H.R.
2:02:071, the welfare reform, I had a lengthy conversation with him about his stake in a decent manpower arrangement, because the welfare reform bill wouldn't work well unless you had a good manpower training scheme.
2:02:21And the one that they were cooking up wasn't very good.
2:02:24He ought to
2:02:26So he called Carl Perkins on the phone while I was there.
2:02:29And then he apparently wrote him a long three-page letter about this.
2:02:36That man, there may be something stirring there that we don't know about, but I think that's the...
2:02:42He will cooperate with us for a very diabolical reason, as far as his memory may be.
2:02:55The way for him to be men is to prove that he can gutter, that he can lead.
2:03:01Here, all of them are out bitching, carting, criticizing.
2:03:06And here, Wilbur Mills rises above it all and gets something done, you see.
2:03:12Now, we'll get there, too.
2:03:16In the final analysis, though, the question is, as far as he's concerned,
2:03:22How is he otherwise in the Kimmerer from the others?
2:03:25If he just runs with another carpet and trailer section, they're going to beat the hell out of him.
2:03:30But any chance he's got to the nomination and slowly get it done, any chance he's got will be enormously increased by the fact that Wilbur Mills is the statesman against these damn penny-handed politicians, you see.
2:03:45I think he's got a chance to do a great job.
2:03:49He looked terrible on television the other night.
2:03:52He kind of crosses the sort of center of the platform.
2:03:55He's there.
2:03:56He's not going to never make it because of television, that's my point.
2:03:59As far as the man is concerned, he can take all the rest of these bastards and throw them out in one sack.
2:04:05He's smart as a whip.
2:04:07And the guy has got, he could run the place.
2:04:09There's no question about it.
2:04:10Wilbur Mills could run the place.
2:04:12People like Wilbur Mills and Conway here.
2:04:16They're the kind of men that have that great southern ability to run something.
2:04:20But, on the other hand, he is a disaster employee.
2:04:23I know.
2:04:24That's why I like to encourage him.
2:04:25See, I'm not against it.
2:04:27Everybody's at Agnes on the other side.
2:04:30Help Wilbur Mills.
2:04:32Help him.
2:04:33That's right.
2:04:34I just don't want him to hurt us.
2:04:37So, I really think George, if you can convince me that with Wilbur, I don't want him.
2:04:45Somebody really ought to talk to him a lot about his life.
2:04:48And he really trusted him.
2:04:49He said, I don't care, what do you want to do?
2:04:53Also, there's the other thing.
2:04:54He can be the father of welfare reform.
2:04:57He can be the father of revenue sharing.
2:04:59He can be the father of a health bill.
2:05:01That's a pretty hellish and good program around, isn't it?
2:05:04Or he could be the instructor, along with all the others.
2:05:11Yeah, which all the others are.
2:05:12They're all the same bad job.
2:05:15Maybe he sees that.
2:05:16Do you think he does?
2:05:18Well, I'm not sure.
2:05:20We've talked about such a thing for a long time, and he never grew out of it.
2:05:24Bill Gifford sort of got at that a little bit indirectly with it.
2:05:30Who knows him extremely well?
2:05:32Why don't you find out who knows him extremely well?
2:05:36Good mouth-topping one would say, look here.
2:05:44I don't think he would trust Harlow.
2:05:48On the other hand, Harlow may know who to talk to.
2:05:52We want to check with Bryce and just tell Bryce, look, here's the problem.
2:05:56Bryce, of course, doesn't trust him.
2:05:58Wilbur, of course, doesn't trust him.
2:06:00But nevertheless, we know Wilbur's got brains and he's got power.
2:06:06And we just need something.
2:06:10I didn't want to press too hard because I didn't want to seem too anxious about it.
2:06:16We agreed that this little description was a good representation of the discussion, so we didn't argue about that.
2:06:30We looked at what he studied, and there wasn't any comparative table there.
2:06:37I didn't give him a comparative table or anything.
2:06:39They've been showing how this formula is distributed by the states, and it's just got the numbers by the states, and I'm sure it wants to go back and check whether that's different by how much in which states and so on.
2:06:52I imagine.
2:06:53We'll take it for granted.
2:06:55We'll see.
2:06:58We're in policy meetings with the purpose of discussing their mission.
2:07:04Right.
2:07:04I understand.
2:07:06All right.
2:07:07Other things as well.
2:07:11Correct.
2:07:12I'd have to give him credit that he hasn't broken any use of the discussion, and we haven't either, so it's been a fair game on both sides.
2:07:21Absolutely.
2:07:23And that's the way we should be doing it.
2:07:27We have a higher education controversy going on.
2:07:30Really?
2:07:31As defenders of Georgia's budget department have been resisting...
2:07:39The water is on.
2:07:39We're going to call it the new water program.
2:07:43That's what we need is new water, not old water.
2:07:51I don't like that.
2:07:52The new water appeals to me.
2:07:54Okay.
2:07:55The secretary instructed when the phone rang to pick it up and say, sorry, we just sold the last one.
2:08:03That's all right.
2:08:05Elliott has been under heavy pressure to aid institutions of higher education.
2:08:13Our philosophy, our budget philosophy from the beginning has been to aid students, and then we'll let the students pick out the institution of higher education in which they want to go, rather than channeling the old avenues.
2:08:28Elliott has listened to our objections.
2:08:33and has conceded.
2:08:36But he says that he is under such heavy pressure.
2:08:39And for instance, he got to see Congressman Dellenbach this afternoon at 5 o'clock.
2:08:44Yeah.
2:08:44He said to Ted Lieber that he thought it was very important that he be able to truthfully say that he has talked to you.
2:08:50Sure, he's talking to me about it.
2:08:52And so I have a talking paper here.
2:08:55He was hoping you might phone him about it.
2:08:57Oh, but I can... Why don't you tell him that I have...
2:09:01Say that he's talking about it.
2:09:03I have talked to him about it on other occasions, and I'm against it.
2:09:07I'm not a goddamn cent for higher education at this point, if you've got to put it that way.
2:09:14So they want to help.
2:09:15What college do they want to help?
2:09:17The typical kind of thing is they want to channel more money for fiscal relief to the large research university.
2:09:24Oh, probably.
2:09:25I don't know.
2:09:47I know what these people are up to, and they haven't got until some of those guys face up to their responsibilities as college educators and administrators.
2:09:54They'll get maximum contributions.
2:09:56Chicago's doing all right, isn't it?
2:09:59Fair.
2:09:59Better than some.
2:10:00It's better than Sanford.
2:10:03Sanford's everything all the time.
2:10:05I had a very good discussion with the business council about that president, new president, Columbia Bill McGill.
2:10:10Is he all right?
2:10:11He's darn good.
2:10:12He gave a good talk, and he's very effective on this.
2:10:16I think one suggestion in there, John, that is in line with the philosophy in the budget is the business of an institutional override on the fellowships to the disadvantaged student.
2:10:35In other words, it would be a payment that doesn't go to the institution as such, but only goes when the individual student collects that.
2:10:43And I know exactly what you're talking about, and you need to do it.
2:10:47Now, the difficulty there, though, are we encouraging the black colleges when we do that, or can we let them have a crack at that, too?
2:10:53That would help it a lot, because they get more than their share of disadvantaged students.
2:10:58That's fine.
2:10:59That's fine.
2:11:00In other words, you subsidize the institution in order to take the disadvantaged students.
2:11:04The idea is that this advanced student has a scholarship to the government, and he goes, he selects college X to go to.
2:11:15So he takes that scholarship with him.
2:11:19And the institution, in effect, is also giving him
2:11:23uh... uh... uh... uh... uh... uh... uh... uh... uh...
2:12:00That one might be all right.
2:12:01I don't know if that's going to appeal to anybody except myself.
2:12:10But no more of them.
2:12:11Not to these research institutions.
2:12:12No mention.
2:12:13Hell, they didn't want this.
2:12:15Let them go to their contributors.
2:12:18Let the professors get to cut and saw it.
2:12:20That'd be helpful.
2:12:24It just would cost 99.5 million.
2:12:26You know, everything is...
2:12:32I've talked to David, no not talked to David, I'm having Whitaker put together this group where I meet tomorrow and see what David comes up with.
2:12:48David's working on it right now.
2:12:50And I had a talk with Pecora and I told Pecora that we intended to take it out of Interior and I was depending on him to sell it to Morgan.
2:12:58Yeah, and he said fine, and he understood why you wanted to do that.
2:13:02You see, in the interior, it's competitive.
2:13:05This is the reason that anything will be started.
2:13:06It's competitive with hydroelectric and a lot of other things.
2:13:10Those before the Interior Committee.
2:13:11Yeah.
2:13:12This is not the place for it.
2:13:14I think you take it out.
2:13:16Take it out and set up yourself a program here.
2:13:19Yeah.
2:13:20It's a cross-crossing.
2:13:21Exactly.
2:13:22At the very first week, we have hypo-weapons.
2:13:27get a higher priority assigned to it, and get it out of that damn bureaucracy over there.
2:13:32But we'll get back to you tomorrow afternoon with the results of this meeting.
2:13:36And you're going to check to see about the California plan, right, which is minor, and how much more we can do now, and research doing in Southern California.
2:13:46Right.
2:13:49So that was
2:13:50I think you ought to take NASA's thing.
2:13:53Maybe take a clip out of that.
2:13:56Now, it just may be that you ought to take those moon shots.
2:14:16consider taking that.
2:14:18I know all this business about the last shot and 25% of the scientific value in the last shot and all the rest.
2:14:26But right now, as you look at everything, I'm inclined to think that we'll only be doing what the Congress is going to do anyway.
2:14:34You see?
2:14:35And the Congress is going to cut it.
2:14:36It's going to cut that space forever because they're reading the polls.
2:14:40And if they're going to cut it,
2:14:42I would rather move in the area that you think is most likely to cut so that we can keep the area that we think is important and put it into this.
2:14:50Supposing we were to say that a new head of NASA, that he and I would have been concerned about presiding over a finite operation.
2:15:02And here's an open door now to a sort of permanent new
2:15:06Can we make that something out of air and actually work on space?
2:15:10We're working on that.
2:15:12I'm saying that because if we could make NASA, everybody's telling us, why would we make NASA with all this enormous capability?
2:15:19You know, and that's basically, it worked.
2:15:21It concentrated all these brilliant people in one thing, and they went to the moon.
2:15:25They went to the moon.
2:15:27And they learned a lot of other things.
2:15:29We learned about computers, we learned about the weather, we learned about satellite images.
2:15:32A lot of good things have come out of that case.
2:15:34An awful lot of good things.
2:15:36But now in this instance we say maybe it's something else we've got.
2:15:41If you keep the initials, we call it National Advanced Scientific Application.
2:15:45If you've got them, keep the initials.
2:15:47But I'd rather see us change the name and the concept and everything.
2:15:52So change the name.
2:15:54It has a dual mission.
2:15:55Well, let's see.
2:15:56I suppose you've got problems.
2:15:57You've got a space committee up in the common share.
2:16:01All that, I suppose.
2:16:03And you're going to get the Senate Interior Committee all upset because you've taken one of their projects away from them and giving it to some other committee.
2:16:11All right.
2:16:12That might fuck with me that you deal with this as a consortium.
2:16:17The Senate Interior Committee knows that their interior guys are in.
2:16:20Oh, sure.
2:16:21And hearings should be by all.
2:16:23And you can just say the company's an informative massive professional manager of this project.
2:16:28I have a consortium, I agree.
2:16:30And it's definitely anybody that goes down, they'll have to appear before the Interior Committee.
2:16:35You know, a lot of them have to appear before the Atomic Energy Committee, the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, because of the...
2:16:44fuel and so forth i have a club treatment i'm sure that's the way to do it i'm sure too that if you get a sense of excitement and drive and so forth we will not have a program sitting there for 28 years no for 20 years 21 years and for god's sakes still at 50 percent if you private business put up 50 percent we'll put up 50
2:17:12It isn't going to work better.
2:17:14This isn't a good enough deal.
2:17:16And it's worth a bigger benefit.
2:17:18On highways, for example.
2:17:19Now, what is more important, a highway or a water drain?
2:17:24A water, of course.
2:17:25Or water rain, of course.
2:17:26And so for highways, we do it for 10%.
2:17:28We put up 90-10, right?
2:17:30Of course, the reason for that is in the tremendous lobbies that you had.
2:17:36I had work on the construction of that.
2:17:37We've got a lobby for this right now.
2:17:40So let's go do it.
2:17:44How strong was he when he was there?
2:17:47Oh, he's turned nine.
2:17:49It was interesting to talk to McCartney.
2:17:52He saw us and really wanted to be very enthusiastic about it.
2:17:58He's part of it?
2:17:59Sure.
2:18:00We'll take the whole group and move them into this thing.
2:18:04I thought he was a pretty good man.
2:18:07My understanding is he's very good.
2:18:12You know, I have a feeling that there's some enormously capable people in this area that we might get.
2:18:20And I was at two universities only, UCLA and Florida.
2:18:25But I had a couple of others on other projects.
2:18:27I got Cornell and Syracuse, MIT.
2:18:29But, well, they're all good schools.
2:18:33But here is one place, I mean, there is a place where you can subsidize the two universities.
2:18:39I'm all for that.
2:18:42We've put some research projects in a few places, wonderful.
2:18:45I mean, I've put a lot of them in California, for instance.
2:18:52One of the side benefits, I think, about this is we're looking at NASA's horizon.
2:18:57They've been trying to do that.
2:18:58They're pretty well, they like the idea of a well-defined mission in space and aeronautics.
2:19:07And they're gradually being brought to think a little bit more broadly.
2:19:11They've got a pollution control project going on there now.
2:19:16They're kind of nibbling at it.
2:19:17But I think if they were to make themselves the managers
2:19:22sort of federal innovative type research.
2:19:24But we can put it in terms of you can take them on the mountain top and you can bring them in and say, look, you have to show them how it can be done.
2:19:33In other words, we give you a project and we say, go out and do it.
2:19:36Now we're going to give you this one.
2:19:37You go out and do it.
2:19:39That's what's the best way to get the teens in.
2:19:41You know, they go rah, rah, rah, and they wear blue shirts or whatever the hell they do, letters and things.
2:19:46Well, they also have contracts with the private sector.
2:19:49They're pretty good at it.
2:19:51Yeah, they're very good at it.
2:19:54They've got good people.
2:19:57All right, we'll be back to you now.
2:20:00We had a meeting this morning on campaign spending.
2:20:06And the only thing we can do about it is to make a major stand to eliminate the limitation, the $15,000 limitation.
2:20:14What in the world?
2:20:15I know it's radical from our standpoint, but how could you do so much?
2:20:21Well, excuse me, I'll tell you one way to resolve it.
2:20:26James McCarthy could not have been the candidate if it had not been for Howard Stein.
2:20:32hartstein gave him a billion bucks and james mccarthy ought to have the right to be candid with hartstein actually i saw him has agreed to contact these key senators man by man these republicans this is this is where our big problem is that our own republicans are not hanging tough on this so we had a meeting with him this morning and he's going to get into this personally now which is the only way to make this thing happen uh and then
2:21:04the swing senator on this, and so we'll work with the Hughes people and see if we can help that situation.
2:21:11But it isn't any good just to go to hearings and have plaintiffs testify and all this kind of thing.
2:21:18Mitchell's got to make those personal contacts himself.
2:21:21So when you're talking to him, it would be very helpful if you would indicate that we've got all our chips riding on him and following through on this thing now.
2:21:31All the rest of them to get involved.
2:21:34But it really has to be.
2:21:37It has to be given some background.
2:21:40It sure is.
2:21:41But it's our own .
2:21:42We're having to .
2:21:43He's coming at 3.30 to talk about antitrust policy.
2:21:47Our congressional policy.
2:21:48Thank you.
2:21:49A veto can be sustained.
2:21:59A great PR sacrifice that a black lead would take would just be, you know, blood-thirsty.
2:22:05And probably isn't worth it, but let's face it, in terms of our case, in terms of the police and the presidential race, it's a worthy group to come back to.
2:22:15You have a lot of managers.
2:22:16I try.
2:22:17I mean, it's budgeted, but it's kind of like hell.
2:22:21Some of these guys are under the House of Senate.
2:22:23Sure.
2:22:24Isn't that true, right?
2:22:25And it'll hurt somebody.
2:22:30On the other side, it's her show-off.
2:22:33It can't be.
2:22:34It never is.
2:22:36It never is.
2:22:37It's going to be done by big contributors.
2:22:41That's what we tell those guys.
2:22:43How are China going to be able to put in a million McCloskeyers over that?
2:22:51That's what you do.
2:22:52It's not a sign.
2:22:53It's not a sign.
2:22:54It's McCloskey.
2:22:55Either way, that's what the paper says.
2:22:57I don't know if that's so or not.
2:23:04I think if you could duplicate history with McCartney's campaign, that would prove, sorry, McCartney is the master of all the shine above everything else.
2:23:13They talk about all the things together, it's like hell has kept them, it still hasn't done it.
2:23:18But Stein gave them at least an improved $4 million.
2:23:20I mean, it was the biggest calculation of all.
2:23:25That's just lovely that you're asking.
2:23:27I'll give you another watch.
2:23:34All right.
2:23:34Remember, you asked for this session to never be approved.
2:23:38You're on your own.
2:23:39Thank you, buddy.
2:23:40Yes, sir.
2:23:40Mr. Plannigan will not be here until 4 o'clock.
2:23:43His plane was delayed.
2:23:44All right.
2:23:45Sure.
2:23:46I don't understand, Mr. Plannigan, too, with campaign financing.
2:23:54The worst kind of restriction is the restriction on entry.
2:23:58The people in the industry can restrict entry.
2:24:03then they've got their monopoly power consolidated.
2:24:06And this is really the same kind of thing.
2:24:08That's why you see in some of them, there's a way, uh, it's preserved by, uh, we can get a little bit of the data.
2:24:18That's what you need.
2:24:19You need a liberal, John.
2:24:21Take out the cultural spirit.
2:24:24The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
2:24:39Three.
2:24:40Two.
2:24:40One.
2:24:41Two.
2:24:44Three.
2:24:44One.
2:24:45Two.
2:24:46Three.
2:24:46One.
2:25:09I don't know about that.
2:25:12Oh, he passed the policy.
2:25:15I just asked him where he was going to do that.
2:25:21He said, I don't know.
2:25:36I got to get mixed all my stuff for a change.
2:25:44Don't do it.
2:25:46That's what it is.
2:25:50I'm trying to listen to you right now.
2:26:04What are you saying?
2:26:07What are you talking about?
2:26:09British water in Texas?
2:26:13The reason you can see what has happened in the program is when you talk.
2:26:34But you play it so that they can't stop you from boxing.
2:26:37They've been screwing around with this program.
2:26:39And the reason they've been screwing around is that it's an Argentine cheerleader.
2:26:43An Argentine cheerleader.
2:26:45You're not even going to feel the interest, you know.
2:26:47You have a lot of workers and all the rest of my members to work on this.
2:26:51So it's a great place to have it.
2:26:53The other thing is that in terms of the, in terms of the price of it, you have to keep it low.
2:27:02of Russian military leaders, and one of them is a man who's capable of bringing people together, and so on.
2:27:08This is what we should do.
2:27:10We need to synthesize plants and provide scientific wisdom to California and the United States.
2:27:18We should have our places to do it, and we should want to be the place to do it, and then to take it out of the Department of Interior,
2:27:27set it up and as part of a mess, put agency into it, put material into it, put whatever agencies were involved in it, science foundation.
2:27:41And thereby, it doesn't mean that you're going to look forward to an immediate breakthrough.
2:27:50The scientific knowledge we already have, we're not going to fail.
2:27:55We're failing to do it.
2:27:57Doesn't sound like a good thing to do.
2:27:59Oh, I had to tell you.
2:28:00The argument is pushing money.
2:28:02No problem.
2:28:02We'll probably spend it for other purposes.
2:28:04And there's a fine available in the district, one place or another.
2:28:09This should be $27 million.
2:28:11I don't have to spend it on anything.
2:28:13It's important.
2:28:13I'm sure you would if you had spent it.
2:28:15We better do something on this to do it.
2:28:17Your account is a gift to us.
2:28:19It's a passion of us.
2:28:21The state states...
2:28:23Well, I think that 50% has been on the ground.
2:28:26In fact, that is the contribution basis.
2:28:29Yeah, that's the research, the construction.
2:28:33Yeah, the prototype construction.
2:28:35Construction in California is one of the plants that have had this public body in the water for a while.
2:28:42Yeah, that might be the next thing we're talking about right here.
2:28:45The construction of the prototype was the client's proud main organization.
2:28:51In private property, they would put up 50% of the money.
2:28:53Part of the time, they're better off.
2:28:56The same thing as this cold, gaseous diffusion thing.
2:29:01Well, I thought they had the technology.
2:29:03What they want to do is put the plant in place.
2:29:06Now, they're not sure they've got the technology.
2:29:08They're not that kind of quantities that they were talking about in Texas.
2:29:13The main thing is that we've got to get the leadership.
2:29:17We must not fail for lack of a point on it.
2:29:22And as Matthew LeBase has defined it, as the scientists feel, that we're trying.
2:29:26We haven't done anything yet.
2:29:29You know, we have been working on an energy statement for about a month now.
2:29:35This could find its place in that.
2:29:37We could recast it somewhat to talk about the whole problem of national growth.
2:29:42and the ability of the nation, ten years off, to respond to its then needs, in terms of energy, but also in terms of water, and in terms of stopping things, taking in turn basically the politics of the matter.
2:29:55It seems to me that this can work out, you know, I'm thinking of something, and I've got, I mean, we're looking at $50 million, $100 million in Texas, and $50 million in Colorado.
2:30:03What's the worth of this?
2:30:04And I think we should be done with that now.
2:30:06But needed, you know, you think it was very impressive about your statement, was that five-sevenths of all the irrigated land in Texas...
2:30:14His money and his water.
2:30:15That's great.
2:30:16I've got to tell you something about it.
2:30:18It's a very serious problem in America.
2:30:21Oh, heck it.
2:30:21Oh, sure.
2:30:22It's honesty.
2:30:23It's honesty.
2:30:23It's something that's...
2:30:24Listen, in California, I know.
2:30:26I know what large counties are going through and all the rest.
2:30:29They're trying to rob the Pacific Northwest with their water.
2:30:31They don't like our water.
2:30:32Everything in Columbia or whatever water we have down there...
2:30:37There it is.
2:30:38What we wanted to talk about here today, John, is the planning that's not here.
2:31:05Can you summarize the .
2:31:12He was not suggested for this.
2:31:18We're writing out this on two fronts.
2:31:21One is purely domestic.
2:31:23The other is international.
2:31:24As Peterson is closer and closer to coming up with draft recommendations.
2:31:29We run right into the question of what the administration's policy should be with regard to permitting our company's trading abroad to either cartel or one way or another that is based in power and screwed by a trust.
2:31:44The pipeline is another one where we run into all kinds of domestic solutions.
2:31:57policy in fact is in terms of application and whether it should be different.
2:32:03We've heard conspicuously from ITT when these three cases were there, but we've also been hearing from a lot of our other friends around the country who say that McLaren is a pioneer.
2:32:15Now, in that area,
2:32:18We've asked Clark to do a project and he's turned right to it.
2:32:31Correct.
2:32:33And Crowe and staff here are coordinating this, not only with Justice, but with other parties around the country.
2:32:39Correct.
2:32:40And we will have, in writing, in one place for the first time, a statement of what the operating policy now is.
2:32:48And the other question is, do we have what we want, or do we want something different?
2:32:53But at least there'll be some points and parts here, and that's really all my exercise is.
2:32:57I had a good time.
2:32:59Before we get down the road, let me point out that that's my first review.
2:33:06It was a policy.
2:33:08I had a good time.
2:33:10There was economic advisors, firms, and so forth.
2:33:16I think we had a great time.
2:33:18It was a strategy.
2:33:21It was a large acquisition.
2:33:22It was a large number of acquisitions going on.
2:33:27for a number of reasons.
2:33:29One, of course, the inflationary picture, which this was kind of a hit.
2:33:33The money market, where they were using up all the money on new ventures and all that stuff.
2:33:39We could see that Jimmy Lentz and the rest of them, most of them, had very popular dollars.
2:33:44Some of them had a seller proposition that he was going to have a tougher deal.
2:33:49He got a deal out there.
2:33:51Corporation would buy anything.
2:33:53Oh, I just got a dollar.
2:33:55I just got a dollar.
2:33:56I just got a dollar.
2:33:59Well, and I don't believe that it's worked that way.
2:34:06I know we've got a lot of screams and hollers for some of them, but if you take ITT, which is making the most noise, I think they had 13 acquisitions last year that were non-disruptive of the competitive.
2:34:20And a lot of these factors in which we address this have changed.
2:34:25and just in our discussions over the weekend on the patent project.
2:34:30To be fair, this is what might make the NI Trust factor push further into the anti-competitive aspects of the patent field, even though it's in the interest of the interdepartmental study and provides policies
2:34:46But as I say again, we have to get down real to the economics of these things, which should be the determining factor in politics.
2:34:58You know, the economics of it, I think, there's a potential value in it, but it's naturally, it's here that the bummer is growing.
2:35:11And there are acquisitions that haven't panned out.
2:35:14The marketplace has to make companies.
2:35:17There are lots of acquisitions that can promote competition.
2:35:25It's not the case at all that the acquisition of a small company is going to be able to deal with the addition of competition and promote competition by making that company really stronger.
2:35:38The idea of exoneration, as such, doesn't seem bad looking at it from the standpoint of the economic side.
2:35:48No, no, there's never been a thought, sir, that we don't have the power to recover business.
2:35:57We've never tried to recover business.
2:35:59We've only had, I think, five years.
2:36:02And by the way, every time you hear from one Janine of the IT team, you hear the funniest, the best, objective of Janine's activities.
2:36:16Here's an example.
2:36:18One of the fire sprinklers ran out of the fire sprinkler.
2:36:23And then, well, the insurance company, you got to hear the other insurance company scream.
2:36:27about the tie-in that we've got to have with Ernest Franklin, and I'm not even sure he would have said it, because I've listened to that property.
2:36:34So I'm just reciprocating with you in a very, very strange way, many segments of it.
2:36:39And I think that's well understood.
2:36:41I think there are a lot of those who would never ask, would say, that this administration has a policy that we can't fix.
2:36:49That's what I'm talking about.
2:36:51But down on the business side.
2:36:56I got sent.
2:36:57You were taken.
2:36:58Did you know that they were, uh, uh, from the report that I got to the beach side?
2:37:07That seemed to be the major event.
2:37:10They were off on this particular point.
2:37:13Or at least one of the major ones was.
2:37:15I remember that particular time that I was there.
2:37:19I don't know if you thought about it.
2:37:21Well, it's pretty spurious when you think about the exam itself.
2:37:30It had 13 mergers last year.
2:37:32It's been 10 to 15.
2:37:34We've read them all the time.
2:37:37It is when your attorneys go out and try the cases, the period of the case that they advance frequently is bottomed on.
2:38:09as sort of practical evidence of anti-competitive.
2:38:13We've got some bad attorneys.
2:38:38government, you've got to realize that you've got to still serve as far as you can do your job.
2:38:42And I did this way.
2:38:44That way you can get the hell out of your practice hands.
2:38:47That's the ability.
2:38:49And one of the serious challenges they face is that this new doctrine of reciprocity is something that just really originated in the last couple of years over the Department of Justice.
2:38:59Can you really get by anything else?
2:39:01And you have.
2:39:01I'm sorry, that's the president.
2:39:03That's the Supreme Court decision.
2:39:06Good.
2:39:07Let me get at it from the other side.
2:39:09On the business side, my major concern is the international thing.
2:39:16I think in that case, I could have the worst cartel in the world built up the goddamn Japanese and the Germans with a very certain fetus because we've got to lay it out.
2:39:27Well, Mr. President, I don't know that there isn't a problem here.
2:39:30I just think, well, there is.
2:39:32There's actually a problem, and it's not only the one on the side that you hear.
2:39:36The reason that the Antitrust Division got changed is in the General Electric case with the Japs, with the fact that the municipalities that wanted to install generating facilities came into the Antitrust Department and complained.
2:39:50So here you have G on one hand, and your problem with international trade, and you've got municipalities in one of the power plants saying, one hand, we did it with the Japanese, and the other hand, we did it with the Cubans.
2:40:08Well, that's what you did, sir.
2:40:10The company that wants to come in and take the business, if you hear somebody in Jacksonville,
2:40:19That problem is an American company or a group of companies want to operate overseas, and they want to aggregate their interest as an American matter overseas, like the Iraqis did.
2:40:34Well, we've been on that crossfire three times.
2:40:37I know.
2:40:38He's going to get you killed, but we've got to stand with the oil companies.
2:40:43Well, we did.
2:40:45But that's the type of case.
2:40:47As a person, it doesn't really care about your... Well, still, it doesn't really come to that.
2:40:53Then there's a third aspect to the international trade problem.
2:40:58Peterson.
2:40:59Peterson.
2:41:00And that is, when a company is dealing for competition, and you're trying to get them in the mood of adjusting to it, rather than trying to keep the competition down,
2:41:15One way to adjust that isn't used very much is to acquire, get into a division through acquisition or a relationship.
2:41:24And so a, the appearance of any acquisition tends to inhibit the adjustment process, as it is that they facilitate these adjustments that make it easier to accommodate to be more competitive.
2:41:38You know, that brought up much this national steel case.
2:41:42National steel?
2:41:43Oh, that.
2:41:44Great.
2:41:45and grant studies that are required.
2:41:46There's no real reason, not a word of the word, they should be allowed to be required as long as there is a very correct version of the horizontal competition, not as long as it's a vanity firm or anything else.
2:42:00except that we won't hold the process until we start having a piece of wood.
2:42:06I'm sure that these two corporations have a legitimate economic reason as to why they should run it.
2:42:12I'm sure we could all just be happy with the department for not forcing the I.F.S.
2:42:16on it.
2:42:16Yeah, of course.
2:42:18And I think this is something that we should just...
2:42:22This is how we structure all this, as well as the political impact.
2:42:25Let me tell you what I think about it.
2:42:34I don't believe that the present time the average person understands that it isn't going to become a major issue.
2:42:58And as far as getting people stirred up, I think as far as folks are concerned, I know you've got the impression, and I know Bill Rogers in general, you have the same impression.
2:43:11I mean, as far as we're getting around these companies, we're going to have to trust them.
2:43:16and many people who trust their bad victims and bad and so forth and so on and so on.
2:43:20It's a little of that.
2:43:22I know you don't feel that way.
2:43:23Of course, we should be talking about a representative if you're a business party.
2:43:27And frankly, Bill Endow, when he was attorney general, I mean, he bought a little too much of that stuff.
2:43:33My own view, though, of the politics of the moment is that I would be, I think we should be perfectly willing to take all the flak in that field.
2:43:43I don't think they're going to make much of an issue on a better hand.
2:43:46What do they have to stand on?
2:43:49Here it's not, we're not talking about folks, we're talking about basically friends, potential friends and so forth with the business.
2:43:57Again, they are earning a bunch of pitches by people who pitch more to the farmers.
2:44:05But we have to remember that farmers are our friends, and the business community, much as they may have our doubts about this, but I tell you, for the most part, every bridge they can probably take us.
2:44:22All the business community, I would hope to clean on the collection.
2:44:26We would give them as few problems as we could and as very little as we could.
2:44:30Take the heat, John.
2:44:31I think we ought to take the heat of
2:44:35I don't want to do any of this.
2:44:45But I do feel that I don't think that there's any, that there's any significant politics for us to be out and trust us.
2:45:00I think on the other hand,
2:45:02that moving into this very day could be extremely irritation on our business community friends at this time, the board competition and all the other problems.
2:45:17Now, one exception that we talked about before that I feel very strongly about is Dan Edwards.
2:45:26It's about time.
2:45:27I mean, I think, you know, in 36 few days, give it to them.
2:45:30That's a different matter.
2:45:33Because they, that's where the movies are about.
2:45:36A lot of them, they can never deserve it anyway.
2:45:40I mean, it's one of the reasons, you know, we just want to do that.
2:45:45I mean, what does it look like right after Eggman and the Crackers?
2:45:51I think the politics of it is, I just have another feeling about it, it is not a good issue as one that hurts if we start to cool it.
2:46:13I think, and I don't think it's a good issue, but I totally agree that we're making a vote for being against Muslim trust.
2:46:22But I do think that we can avoid some whining by members of the business community in this area.
2:46:31And also, I think it is what we really need.
2:46:34Maybe there's time to, in Peterson's way, maybe to make a study of some of these things.
2:46:43It may be that the international field, it really is broader than that.
2:46:48I don't know enough about it.
2:46:50And then in the domestic field, I would submit to take Brandon's field and the international field.
2:46:55What it may get down to is that it may be as far as the US DOA issues, and they can't compete unless they're bigger.
2:47:04And maybe even then they can't compete.
2:47:08I just don't know.
2:47:09But what we did was quite impressive.
2:47:11And that's the issue.
2:47:12I may be wrong, but there's a different one to that.
2:47:16Consumerism.
2:47:18Consumerism is an issue that really affects the voters.
2:47:24I think it was about consumers with that bill.
2:47:27And I think the structure is neater, as we've been speaking about, and so forth.
2:47:34And this is part of the structure of this bill.
2:47:39You've got a good point there.
2:47:42If you put it in the consumer, they understand antitrust numbers.
2:47:45My friend, can you suggest this?
2:47:48Seriously, I think you're going to do a basic statement of policy.
2:47:53I'm not going to say that I do, too, with that particular question.
2:48:01I'm not going to say that I do, too.
2:48:08I'm not going to say that I do, too.
2:48:15I think that's what we're all going to think about, John, in connection with this statement of yours, you know, that we can clarify the policy.
2:48:24Certainly, whether it's a crime or a place that doesn't speak with others, I think that over the years,
2:48:34All of this has been the uncertainty about as much as the cost.
2:48:37Yeah.
2:48:37And as you go, you're going to end up with this lawyer.
2:48:41And he'll tell you what you can or can't.
2:48:44Yeah.
2:48:45And for the market, for me, for the market, he'll tell you not to go ahead and do it anyway.
2:48:50You know, all these networks.
2:48:53A lot of these prices are over the advice of their lawyers.
2:48:56We've looked at the old firm, John, and I've looked at the new firm.
2:48:59They have two companies that have really grown like topsy.
2:49:05One was Werner.
2:49:06I think when that firm got it, when Albert first had a job, it was $26 million.
2:49:13I said, it's an amazing dollar.
2:49:14Who's going to have our company?
2:49:16The other is PepsiCo.
2:49:17Our first three car represent, it was just PepsiCo, and then they got the Volvo, and
2:49:24chips, burritos, burritos, and now they've got Wilson, now they've got Fresno, and basically it's a hell of a well run company.
2:49:34That's the most part of it, that's the majority of the money you get from that, but they got, they got, but they had to matter to those who aren't, why don't you get something else.
2:49:43I remember London was very bad in London, I was in London drinking at Kendall, and they were, they were making it, it was a sugar plant, I was making it.
2:49:52That was the worst damn cross we ever took.
2:49:55But nevertheless, what I think is the worst sum
2:50:06maybe statement of policy, but I think the statement of policy could sink in on a job thing.
2:50:11Jobs, competitization of the United States, and the rest of it.
2:50:15And I think, John, that will tend to overweigh the people that are concerned about, there is not, let me tell you, I was talking to Manny about this, and he brought it up, I don't know why, he didn't put it in terms of how to address it, but to my surprise,
2:50:33You know, he didn't intend to get extra in the full business, but he said, you know, he realizes that there's no head of trust for Claybury when it's a concern.
2:50:41But it's so good, he says, jobs.
2:50:45He says, if we can save the jobs, I don't care who unites or who gets together.
2:50:49He says, let's save the jobs.
2:50:50We've got to save these companies.
2:50:51We mustn't let them go down.
2:50:53That's why our marquee, which most of the business council opposes,
2:50:57Well, I'll tell you, me and these four are so strong, because he said, just slowly, very gently.
2:51:05And it's really, I think there's a great interest there, because we, what can we do in terms of training?
2:51:14We have a response at the end of this week now.
2:51:17Our responses have come in, and this is a staff picture of what I'll have to do.
2:51:24There was an additional response.
2:51:27I asked for some additional work from the clearance group.
2:51:32And as of Sunday when I checked, they were expecting to have that by this weekend.
2:51:37So then we'll get into it as soon as we have the first of the week.
2:51:42Arthur Burns has a bunch working on antitrust policy.
2:51:47I'd like to turn that off.
2:51:48The earlier it was, well, the whole gap, apparently he came up with quite a game or some part of the idea that the Fed had a franchise to get into this, and we crossed their trail.
2:52:03And so I would propose turning him off simply because we don't know what he's going to come up with there and we don't know what he's going to come up with.
2:52:15As far as I know, we ought to turn him off.
2:52:21I agree on the fact that you're not going to have to ask for us, but they shouldn't have gotten all that labor that you've been doing.
2:52:27We're partners in two things that we should get in.
2:52:29If you wouldn't mind, that's all I'm asking.
2:52:31I appreciate it, but anyway, that's what I'm talking about.
2:52:33Come on, we've got an international situation.
2:52:37No, it ain't been discussed in any meeting I've been in anywhere.
2:52:41Thank you very much.
2:52:42I didn't trust that with the other one.
2:52:44It's not the study, but the...
2:52:46I don't know how to get into this, but I think I mentioned that I could at some point.
2:52:51They called and requested a bunch of material from Peterson, and he called me and said, you know, what's this?
2:53:02And I said, what do you do?
2:53:03He said, check it.
2:53:05And I heard his staff group ranking away.
2:53:08John said something that I think is very important for you to be on that list.
2:53:16Mike, you've got to use this.
2:53:20Our courage, you know, first of all, and second, was part of the counseling for the president.
2:53:27He's had the whole run of things here.
2:53:30Now he's over in the Fed.
2:53:31It's difficult for him to be over there and not continue to run the whole thing.
2:53:35You know, just advise him.
2:53:37Now, it does not help his position.
2:53:40Because I held this position for him.
2:53:42He had evolved, and like he did, I evolved in him.
2:53:45When I had meaning in him, it was just meaning.
2:53:47Now, understand, I don't defend meaning or ability to read and so forth.
2:53:51They've got it.
2:53:52They've got it.
2:53:54What's got meaning, Tito, is not what Arthur Burns said in a speech in California, apparently in college.
2:53:59He tried it for him, and he said he only took him on.
2:54:02So he did.
2:54:03I hear Arthur Burns gave him a head of trust then.
2:54:05He should have given him a head of trust then.
2:54:07That has nothing to do, I don't think, with the power we serve, has it?
2:54:12I'm going to keep looking into the bank.
2:54:16Thank you.
2:54:17No, no, he's not.
2:54:18He's across the board.
2:54:20I've been talking to the director.
2:54:24I don't know what he's doing.
2:54:40He's playing a game on my sort of why I make a difference.
2:54:43But I mean, it just comes up in conversation.
2:54:46Remember, you know, like you first had your conversation with her.
2:54:50You said, you know, I got a lot of this and she's got a lot of this and she's got a lot of this and she's got a lot of this and she's got a lot of this and she's got a lot of this and she's got a lot of this and she's got a lot of this
2:55:04He has.
2:55:04He has.
2:55:05He has it hard not to.
2:55:07But that's it.
2:55:08I've been away Sunday nights.
2:55:09I've been away Sunday nights.
2:55:11Gosh.
2:55:12I threw a right up above him, and I saw all this stuff.
2:55:17Well, he's worth talking to.
2:55:19He gets blood, and I'll keep feeding him this.
2:55:21I don't want to try to get in the background, but I just feel if he gets into this, we're going to get in the back.
2:55:30I don't want you to come up with it, because you'll be able to get in the back.
2:55:34He's coming.
2:55:34He's coming.
2:55:35I'm going to take care of him.
2:55:37I think he's good.
2:55:39If he said it to us privately, that would be something else.
2:55:42Well, they will not come that way.
2:55:43He was dead over our report.
2:55:45That's it.
2:55:46If that's your intention, I would root you over.
2:55:50Well, but that's the way it is.
2:55:51I know that.
2:55:52I can get to him if that's the problem.
2:55:55That's not the problem.
2:55:56You're asking him to turn it over.
2:55:58Well, if that is the idea, and I trust the commissioner to the right, but I think we're out of a parallel in the vacuum.
2:56:13I think my intuition is right here.
2:56:17You know how I am in the business.
2:56:24They ought to get on their knees every night and thank God we're here.
2:56:29Don't we fight the consumers and we're fighting this environmental nuts.
2:56:32We're fighting, you know.
2:56:34Henry Ford was with me here, John, the other day on the table.
2:56:37That's so they didn't have a hair bag, you know.
2:56:40I had a strong one poking the downer and he was like, I'm going to put the hair bag in.
2:56:45But he didn't get up.
2:56:46I said, this is better.
2:56:48He appreciates nothing.
2:56:49I understand.
2:56:51I just assume not to give him any more trouble if you don't watch him.
2:56:55You might not agree with my point, but I have been talking in separate readings on the business community.
2:57:03Yeah, that is much more positive.
2:57:06Well, maybe so.
2:57:07Maybe the business council is just against us.
2:57:09Well, no, the business council is jailed.
2:57:13Last year was our guy that made a speech about how we should wait for price control to run away.
2:57:19And immediately, David Rock started out and said he didn't agree with it at all.
2:57:24Jeff already had it.
2:57:26That's not all he didn't agree with at all.
2:57:29He hopes that the headline that came out of this would be that the business council is ruined in press control because he thinks that there's only one other thing to lose.
2:57:39I don't think that's really what Irwin is arguing about.
2:57:42He's just hearing it before.
2:57:44But I've had quite a few of them say that we've talked about economic policy.
2:57:49We need to have a policy that's good for the long-term health of the earth.
2:57:53And that's the way to talk to it.
2:57:56But don't be so careful about it that you don't have a good economy to get the president to be elected.
2:58:01Because that's more important than anything.
2:58:04I've got a lot of time to put it that way.
2:58:06So I think there's this notion that they're all mad.
2:58:11That's what we kept to with the farmers, you know.
2:58:14We had all the farmers.
2:58:15They're eating out.
2:58:16The farmers have really been down to it.
2:58:19You know the farmers.
2:58:21Farmers never have to eat.
2:58:22You can't eat them out.
2:58:23Because the weather is bad.
2:58:24It should have been better.
2:58:25If the crop was big, you should have had more money.
2:58:27If the crop is small, and he's getting the money, the crops are small.
2:58:31We all understand that.
2:58:33Basically, the reason that we would be reasonably moved out of the department is the department is basically a decent, patriotic, conservative man, right?
2:58:44That's all.
2:58:44But all this, I do feel, I don't, I just don't want to, I just don't want to have to take it from, I think of a business like, well, first of all, the merits.
2:58:55I'm just not, I'm just not sure we ought to cruelly address the merits.
2:59:00But that's something that you, as a person,
2:59:03But on the other side, I don't think there's much in the modern consumerist business.
2:59:08At least that we cannot power balance with a strong state on jobs.
2:59:12I think if you can emphasize the jobs, our concern about jobs, and America's competitive position in the world,
2:59:18I know that's what we're supposed to do.
2:59:22Just stay in the camp like this, very solitary thing.
2:59:27Where we get a little hollowness, there's a parking lot on the left, there's a parking lot on the right.
2:59:38What are they doing?
2:59:46I also got an inspiration to do this.
2:59:49I think that Lee's gonna try to get a line around that problem.
2:59:54That very problem.
2:59:55Who is this?
2:59:56Do you see this?
3:00:00Yeah.
3:00:01Well, I would hope, gentlemen, that when we get the sedan over this bay, we would get this barn brought back in here.
3:00:12Is somebody working on it?
3:00:14Here's the piece.
3:00:16Here's the piece.
3:00:16I'm going to go over all sorts of those.
3:00:19We have some economic requests.
3:00:21There's all too frequently the lawyers got involved in parties and make recesses with the judges who are in charge over there.
3:00:29And who will do the economics?
3:00:32That's the counsel.
3:00:34That's the counsel.
3:00:36Well, we have not begun to do any of this kind of work until after we have everything the client is going to give us.
3:00:44foundation.
3:00:45Not only that, but what law is, you know, and you have to think about the other end of the track, you know, the other end.
3:00:51Otherwise, you get into conversations where there's just only a good line.
3:00:54There are all kinds of parts.
3:00:56You've got to find out what the law is, what we think it is, and how it is being administered, and then find out from there what it ought to be.
3:01:03You know, I started off in the state of Texas, six or eight basic institutions.
3:01:14I just know that we're getting further than that.
3:01:17Particularly where you can meet international competition.
3:01:24And more people understand the international competition than you think.
3:01:32And a whole lot more understand that than understanding the antitrust action.
3:01:38The steel industry, the steel industry, the fuel industry, the beef industry, every farmer, every rancher in small Australia, beef industry, it's just terrible.
3:01:50When you talk about how many, I want to bring it back to the present time, this figure that was brought out the other day, that more...
3:01:57Where cars are sold on the West Coast, including California, in the last month, American cars, is one hell of a subject.
3:02:04It's so very fact.
3:02:05This is the point I'm making.
3:02:06Precisely.
3:02:07If you could be exact, it's like this.
3:02:09And if you know the charts, it's three of those.
3:02:12Three of those.
3:02:1395%.
3:02:13Definitely.
3:02:15I'm sorry, I don't know what the name is on it.
3:02:18The cars cannot be loaded in our antitrust world.
3:02:21But we just ensured that we got to ensure that we got to remain competitive in a lot of these areas.
3:02:27Well, here's the best part.
3:02:29You started to ask the population.
3:02:31Tell them to put airbags in their cars.
3:02:33That'll keep them.
3:02:34Oh, my gosh.
3:02:34You started to ask them to take care of us.
3:02:37Yes, sir.
3:02:38That's the way it should be.
3:02:39Well, that's the way it should be.
3:02:41You should hear about that.
3:02:45Well, Peter, where is it at the 9-10?
3:02:47It's at the point where the DOT and Justice have now exchanged their memorandums.
3:02:53That's correct.
3:02:54And we can get back and have another meeting.
3:02:58Now up to you to call a meeting with the Clarence and you to review the guidelines that are coming about.
3:03:06These 12-term guidelines, Mr. President, what are we going to say to them?
3:03:10is appropriate in general terms with regard to murders.
3:03:13We're not going to let the big ones merge, and we're not going to let them do that.
3:03:16And we're not going to let the mediums merge with the bigs.
3:03:19And we're not going to let them know that.
3:03:20I don't believe we'll say that.
3:03:21I think we'll say they can't.
3:03:23But they spend so much time talking issues, stirring around as to what they can do.
3:03:28We ought to tell them what they can do.
3:03:30And let them know.
3:03:32Oh, I don't know anything about it, John.
3:03:34But they're pretty good at making a lot of decisions.
3:03:38Well, I agree with that.
3:03:39I just think on the airline, I've never heard of it.
3:03:42If you don't screw one, huh?
3:03:44Well, if one, if you don't screw one, well, if you don't screw one, well, if you don't screw one, well, if you don't screw one, well, if you don't screw one,
3:04:02Or even home.
3:04:02Well, entertainment was more important, but even at home, this damn competition is what's putting them all in trouble.
3:04:08But to point out again, and it's not just the U.S. Attorney, the White House of Justice, we have a statute, I mean, a case law, and this is why I'm out here, that when we run into problems, and let me point out that even if everybody in government were to approve the merger of A and B, C, D, and F would come in and litigate for three years.
3:04:31So what I believe is that in the scale, I think we're going to get to the point where we're going to have to reckon with legislation.
3:04:40And I think that this may very well be true in some of our Canada aspects, particularly with respect to the farming process.
3:04:49Well, that may be necessary.
3:04:52It seems to me that what we told the airlines is, what will our posture be?
3:04:56They kind of assume that they ask for a merger.
3:04:59We don't care.
3:04:59We've been coming down the road three or four times.
3:05:02And you know businessmen.
3:05:05They get to be very shallow and approach these things.
3:05:08They're not going to say, well, hell, the government told me we could do it.
3:05:11They'll forget about the SCDA and their competitors and the courts and all the rest of it.
3:05:16So that's the other side of the trap that we've been working on.
3:05:19Thank you for your understanding.
3:05:20Let me ask you a basic problem.
3:05:22It's the way we've been talking about this.
3:05:25It gets down to the question of people on the airlines.
3:05:28I don't know if that's all that's true about a human ship.
3:05:31I don't know how much interest he has in the president.
3:05:36But one of the strewest guys on this field is American.
3:05:41The OCR is American.
3:05:43I don't know what he thinks about all this.
3:05:46Do you talk to him, for example?
3:05:48I have not.
3:05:49He's retired.
3:05:49I have.
3:05:50I generally talk about anything he says to me.
3:05:54He said most of the time, much of the time, he says it's a bad thing.
3:06:00He says it's impossible to witness the destruction of the airlines today.
3:06:05It's the fact that there were too many moves from anything.
3:06:09He said it's too damn much competition.
3:06:12Everybody wanted to know the fact that we were going to find tenders out.
3:06:15And then, of course, he analyzed it and said they got hit with the loss of increased traffic.
3:06:22They're running 15% snapback, plus the exorbitant weight shift.
3:06:25Yeah, and he thinks that's just what the rest of us think.
3:06:29We've got a capacity problem.
3:06:30We've got to commence the market.
3:06:32Mr. President, what has happened is that the CAB, for instance, this CAB has turned off the route space.
3:06:40No more people have it.
3:06:42This CAB was good yesterday.
3:06:44This CAB came out with a great increase that is going to help them this year right away.
3:06:50So to add up now, Carlson can have you tonight.
3:06:54I think you've seen me make money this year.
3:06:57The CAB is in Samaritan.
3:06:59Great group.
3:07:00U of A and Amherst, they have problems.
3:07:02Partly because of the math.
3:07:06with the kind of comment that I think we can get out of it, we can work out what the count is of injustice, I believe it would have made a big step forward.
3:07:17In addition to that, if there is capacity production underway, if that's 20% on the major routes, those that have crossed that grass, 20% less departures.
3:07:27Now, because they put 747s on, instead of 707s, there are only 10% left seats available in February.
3:07:32But nevertheless, even that 10%
3:07:35and they're selling their old 707s and DC-8s.
3:07:38Who do they sell those to?
3:07:40Some of them they shan't use, some of them they sell to foreign people, to foreign operators.
3:07:49So that's a great point.
3:07:50The trouble with some of them, Mr. President, is they have to meet our pollution standards in this country, and it costs too much to bring them up today.
3:07:59They're going to go and lose the chance.
3:08:00They're going to go and lose money.
3:08:02Oh, God.
3:08:03This looks like a great supply for us, but, well, it helps us, I think, educate them a little bit as to what they might do.
3:08:10Because it turns out, on the economic side, that if the whole industry reduces its capacity by, say, 20%, by just taking 20% of its airplanes and putting them on the shelf, it'll make more money.
3:08:23because there would be, of course, a reduction in the number of passenger miles flown, so they would fly at a much better capacity.
3:08:32The trouble was that you couldn't figure out an industry-wide way to make that decision in a way that we had thought of, but that could avoid advantage.
3:08:43We're clear that 20% of them has polluted air or something, and they can be put on the shelf, but they weren't cut out.
3:08:50Anyway, they stopped.
3:08:51The thing that would be better off is they could be placed in the hangar, I guess.
3:08:57They're going to want it, so it's the idea.
3:08:59They don't buy it.
3:09:00You want them to have tissues.
3:09:02When you're talking about specific industries, the value of this box is a lot.
3:09:08It has to be a lot.
3:09:10United and Pan Am both went out and sold down the stock issues.
3:09:13So they're not nearly as discouraged as they were some months ago.
3:09:20We have made structural improvements, and I think we're doing a little bit more on capacity and other issues.
3:09:28I saw him again here yesterday.
3:09:48Yes, he does.
3:09:49He's asked me several times.
3:09:52Yes, he does.
3:09:54He will come in.
3:09:55He is.
3:09:57He will come in and ask for things that we will not support as well as supporting things that we very well might support.
3:10:08the subcommittee of the county and the economic policy of the food actor shares on taking some of the regulation off of service, transportation, railroads, trucks, and pipelines is going to be off the top of their step because the truckers have such a big lobby.
3:10:22But, you know, we're going to buy that now.
3:10:27Economically, we do.
3:10:29We're going to buy it.
3:10:37Not for removing the regulation.
3:10:40We backed off from much of the preentry of the trucks for a period of time, for about two years.
3:10:49What they're really out here for is giving the railroads some flexibility in their ways, but the truck industry won't let that.
3:10:58And the railroad's flexibility in abandoning unnecessary lines, and that's really important.
3:11:05They're 40% of the Penn Central lines are not profitable and they can't get rid of them.
3:11:10It's been years and years and years of trying to get us to level off those parts of the Senate where they're not very good.
3:11:17I think when I've been through that over there with the New Jersey lines and some of the rest of them, it's going to come down on the marquee matters.
3:11:25We're going to be testifying on a break before the meeting.
3:11:29If the governor will pick up $10 million a week,
3:11:34which has caused the Penn Central to subsidize accreditation of the Penn Central Railroad.
3:11:40George Maddox has read my office, and he's been talking about Penn Central, the Illinois Central.
3:11:47He said about, I think he said there's another railroad going bankrupt in six weeks.
3:11:52I think he said Illinois Central.
3:11:53Jersey Central?
3:11:54No, he said Illinois.
3:11:56I don't know what he said.
3:11:58Illinois?
3:11:59But, uh...
3:12:00He says the penitentiary's got to have another $145 million.
3:12:05Very shortly, that he's told for us about talking about asking for those $10 million.
3:12:11We can see Congressmen all about it.
3:12:13That's because of the failure of Congress to adopt those work rules.
3:12:15Yeah.
3:12:17And they just say, we don't need these people who cost $10 million.
3:12:21We don't need them.
3:12:21Now, if the government wants to subsidize them and put them on this kind of welfare, that's fine.
3:12:26But we don't need them.
3:12:30That's right, John.
3:12:31I agree with the people.
3:12:32A mayor of every city is going to lose his service.
3:12:36He's going to complain.
3:12:37He's going to lose taxes.
3:12:38He's going to pay for it.
3:12:41Why should those people pay for it?
3:12:42To stop building railroads, which are going broke.
3:12:47I agree with the figure, but I don't think you're going to study it until December of 1972.
3:12:55I'm sorry.
3:12:55I'm sorry.
3:12:57I know.
3:12:58But the alternative is to turn about the passenger.
3:13:00How are we going to end these railroads if they go broke?
3:13:05There are places in Iowa where nowhere in Iowa is more than nine miles on a railroad track.
3:13:11That's because when they had their horses, they usually couldn't take grain on the nine miles of the railroad track.
3:13:17But now it doesn't work that way.
3:13:18Now all those endless railroad tracks have to be kept in service because the FCC won't let them go in.
3:13:25And all the thermos are gone broke, except some of the .
3:13:31Now, that sample's basically .
3:13:35Yeah, we got through the reaction .
3:13:40But how will it be in the air?
3:13:47How will it be in the air?
3:13:51That's not the point.
3:13:52I know, right?
3:13:53That's what we've been talking about.
3:13:55We've been able to statistically analyze which cities actually put on any railroad passengers.
3:14:02And rather than a city like Clinton where nobody ever got on the train, they eliminated it from the passenger route.
3:14:09And there's this enormous human pride for people who never ride the train.
3:14:14Out of city credit.
3:14:15It's so logical you should have been able to convince Mike Mansfield.
3:14:21Yeah.
3:14:22All that we do in these hard parts, and I've got to go back to my answer, is addressing the issue.
3:14:29Or whether it's civic pride or loss of service or whatever it is.
3:14:32Oh, that's definitely one of these momentary issues with the emotional service.
3:14:38They know it should be done and they don't quite like to be put in it.
3:14:42They don't bring it up again.
3:14:43It's just done.
3:14:44All right, I can't do that.
3:14:48If you do something like this, I agree with you basically.
3:14:52There is a way to overcome it.
3:14:53You do it in the name of the economy.
3:14:55You do it in the name of cutting down expenses.
3:14:58All they did was a foil of ours.
3:15:02You can't just do it and not have so much use of it.
3:15:07You guys talk so much about it that you get everything you did for economic reasons.
3:15:13You can't contend with the things that are consistent with trade.
3:15:17Maybe there's a few votes to play with, but if you make another fight, fight it by issue, pick them up in Dubuque and Fort Worth and Denver and somewhere else.
3:15:23So they said, well, I've got to come up with something right, you know.
3:15:27Yeah, I think the structure is in the economy.
3:15:28In fact, you're going to offset to another point when you've got something going on in wider places.
3:15:33And that's why I'm telling you, with that particular... With that particular... With that particular situation.
3:15:40You just have to do it on that basis.
3:15:43Otherwise, any solution proposition would have a solution.
3:15:46And those are actually in place with the bigger lines.
3:15:49Well, in a lot of these lines here, I guess the ones that are still in question are commuter lines.
3:15:57Most commuter lines have a rail package along.
3:15:59Now, there is another passenger issue with the lines.
3:16:02The commuter lines are taken over by the rail packages, certainly.
3:16:07But that's an issue for the private rail lines.
3:16:12We're a very good commuter line currently run by private railroads.
3:16:17And this is true of all of the railroads across the country.
3:16:22I know we've addressed them in East and in Chicago, but I'm understanding that they are substantially more expensive.
3:16:36These Session 16 Proceedings that render their call to ICC are almost all untraceable freight lines.
3:16:45and that they're seeking for ransom for a hundred years.
3:16:49Well, they've ran for time.
3:16:51It takes four years to fence up over 40% of those track agents.
3:16:54It's worthless.
3:16:56And for each 10 or 15 mile section, they go into the stack of figures that I had.
3:16:59It takes four years for the track agents to be rescued.
3:17:02And the tragedy is that with their trying miles on the border, it fenced up to about 15 years.
3:17:10At that point, 10 years to try to get the SEC to relieve them of some of their track in these unprofitable operations.
3:17:18You could not get the government to believe that.
3:17:21And that's just a dead-handed federal now.
3:17:24That all knocks me from it.
3:17:26Whatever your decision, whatever your views, whatever your actions are going to be, that's general.
3:17:32Turn to free market.
3:17:33Sure.
3:17:35And you have to let it go broke.
3:17:38And a lot of people have said, well, it's been 15 years.
3:17:41I've seen senior restricted practices.
3:17:42They just say it's a bunch of thieves up there.
3:17:45There was a startling thing to me in the middle of the other day.
3:17:51I was very poised to announce the proposal to our company.
3:17:53But they were dropping the manufacturer of course now.
3:17:58And I thought to myself, and I saw that, and I thought, God, that's, that's just, uh, that is the great thing about private enterprise.
3:18:11If this out there isn't regulated, and even though it looks superficially like a good product, but it doesn't make any money, they stop.
3:18:20And any kind of government gets into it, whether it's a regulator or an enterprise itself, there are no terminal facilities on anything.
3:18:29And that's how bad it is.
3:18:31And these river lines are the example of the worst thing in the world.
3:18:36And how bad it is, you can't stop.
3:18:37What is the point of that?
3:18:38Sure, it's part of the stock program.
3:18:40They were very good.
3:18:41Why was it less?
3:18:43The product itself was less.
3:18:46Apparently, a good product, alright, but they just couldn't sell enough of it.
3:18:50And the prices they needed to cover their costs to make it profitable.
3:18:54That's your first question.
3:18:55Weren't you satisfied?
3:18:56Because you were rude.
3:18:58What were your feet?
3:19:04I remember, I think I had a pair of Corvette Vols.
3:19:08I had a pair of Corvette Vols.
3:19:12You're keeping them free.
3:19:14Some people keep them free.
3:19:15Anything to do with the monetary compensation?
3:19:19All the while, all the while.
3:19:23Mark's down.
3:19:26Hiller's down.
3:19:26Last report I had was down 1.5% of both.
3:19:30We're
3:19:33We all wanted to talk to people involved.
3:19:38The name of the Federal Reserve, Charlie Coons, was a New York bank, and Bruce McClure is the one that we're bringing home tonight.
3:19:50He's been talking to the Swiss, which makes it better by talking about taking the world over.
3:19:56We're playing around with the idea,
3:20:02some of these dollars, some of the Euro dollars, just so we don't get in a crisis.
3:20:11And it looks like we might be able to take in, oh, maybe a billion dollars at around 5 trillion, which would be bad for goods, I would say.
3:20:23And we probably should take 5 billion dollars off the ends of the Germans.
3:20:31They criticize the United States because they don't, well, just because of our efficient management of our problems.
3:20:45They're trying to trade out the balance of payments, which we've made over the last 15 years.
3:20:54And we're just going downhill without questioning that.
3:20:58But specifically, all the countries over there made a difference in Germany.
3:21:05Europe is different, more than us, oil, although that's nice.
3:21:09The French, the French governor made a comment in his speech on the meeting the other day about the Germans.
3:21:18They're all upset with the Germans.
3:21:19They think they set back the European Union's single monetary policy across Europe.
3:21:25They needed to make good.
3:21:29These, uh, I guess they don't propose anything about re-evaluating the English school system.
3:21:36Sometimes we didn't make it, but we took it.
3:21:39Well, so I was able to get on with it.
3:21:42Oh, yeah.
3:21:42I'd like to see them conduct it.
3:21:44Yeah.
3:21:44But my point is that these Japs are going to do anything that's not their interest, and they're not going to do anything because they think that's a hell of a hard thing to do.
3:21:54So they're not about to do it.
3:21:57Uh, and they made it clear that they don't want to make us keep the information.
3:22:01Uh, and, uh, I'm curious, uh, what about the actions like, uh, taking this case?
3:22:09I'm back to the discussion about the business community to get rid of our time for control programs.
3:22:18I talked about that, uh, and we, I still get other meetings.
3:22:23Yes, yes, we, uh,
3:22:26I thought we could do it today, but I think we might do it maybe tomorrow and discuss it again.
3:22:31I actually find great enthusiasm for it.
3:22:34As a matter of fact, some of the discussions going on revolve around even making the controls more intentional.
3:22:44There is, as they say, a great deal of problems in Europe today.
3:22:49And part of this crisis is caused by American corporations with huge
3:22:54and they're trying to find out, we've practiced a lot of mechanisms to find out who's really, but everybody agrees that probably a good portion of it comes from American business, and they're sending money over there.
3:23:10Absolutely.
3:23:10And I do, too.
3:23:12Right?
3:23:13So a large part of it, George, is that they will move the LOA, and I don't think we'll get much support for it, but we will enter it in time.
3:23:21Would either go into it or not?
3:23:23All right.
3:23:25But, uh... Oh, yeah, but I think this has been embedded into our history by Starcoin and stuff that we've been playing here with us.
3:23:39Basically, this is a good time to do it because it's a form of devaluation of a specialized store.
3:23:47that the market can take care of when the prices are floating with respect to each other.
3:23:53So since they're floating, this is the time to let them, in effect, take into account this new arrangement.
3:24:00It's indeed in control of the economy.
3:24:04I'm sure you want to do it first.
3:24:07Well, that's what nobody knows.
3:24:09We really don't have the nation's facts, but we're just talking to you.
3:24:16They're going to be wildly close to that.
3:24:19They're going to be wildly close to that.
3:24:27Well, that's part of it.
3:24:28The other part of it is that they're reacting to the European philosophy, and I'm just telling you their reaction.
3:24:35I'm not necessarily agreeing with it.
3:24:39We took it off control, and I completely agree that the Europeans would view this as even, they would view it as a rat slap.
3:24:47and I couldn't sleep.
3:24:48And I have to give you the nine deflectors that we don't give a damn about.
3:24:51We all have a bunch of stuff.
3:24:54We're going to run our fairs, and we've done what we please.
3:24:58And I don't get action from the New York Fed people that we deal with, and I don't think you'll get from my children from the Fed, or here, or Harvard, or all these people.
3:25:09And right or wrong, I think you'll get from the Europeans.
3:25:13I think at least I've signed a personal token.
3:25:15That's what I'm going to say.
3:25:17John, I think there's a question regarding the Fed, or the U.S., and what the U.S. will position itself before the French, because they're going to have the Germans move.
3:25:25The Germans wouldn't impose control, but the French would like control.
3:25:28I would think that the Germans would have opted for a free market solution to this problem.
3:25:38of, you know, unsanitary therapy.
3:25:42I think he was going to take enough of your time for these non-political matters.
3:25:47Now, if Mr. Metzger will bring in Jim Eastman, he's going to decide who we're going to make first.
3:25:51That's the judge of the court, Jim.
3:25:54I hope we don't bring up what's going on.
3:25:56He worked with an older, dear friend of mine, the Chief Justice of the Court of Customs and Patent People,
3:26:05Uh, you know I'm the sheriff's president, Mr. Conner, good man.
3:26:09What?
3:26:10Gene isn't, wants to be permanent, is permanent.
3:26:13He will get off the court, provided, uh, provided you appoint somebody other than a patent lawyer.
3:26:20He said, now you've appointed one patent lawyer on here.
3:26:23And, uh, what's wrong?
3:26:26He said, you ought not to have a patent lawyer in your office.
3:26:29You've got one.
3:26:30If he understands all this, all he knows is to say, you know, leave him.
3:26:35He told me the story after a year and a half and he hasn't gotten a heart attack.
3:26:40He thinks you've got a four-color name, Brown.
3:26:44He thinks he knows you've got a four-color name.
3:26:46He gets off and he's a padlocker.
3:26:50I don't believe that's true.
3:26:54But he just said, I don't believe that's true.
3:27:02What do you see good in that?
3:27:06Do you see the lawyer?
3:27:08The rest of the room got rambled out.
3:27:11He's a God-earned God now.
3:27:12He's got to be able to be on the court.
3:27:14He's a lawyer.
3:27:18Anyway, thank you, sir.
3:27:19Thank you very much.
3:27:21Good to be here.
3:27:22Good to be here.
3:27:24Yeah.
3:27:25Oh, I just... Good job.
3:27:27Good job.
3:27:29Good job.
3:27:31Good job.
3:27:33I've talked to today about the economic aspects of it and so forth, but I don't know whether they have it or not.
3:27:40Have you heard any talk about that?
3:27:44Who?
3:27:45That's the utility business.
3:27:48Gas utilities?
3:27:50Yeah, they're supposed to be talking to you.
3:27:54Their testimony that has gone to the Bureau of the Budget is opposing the legislation
3:28:00When I cast, they're reserving the right to look at the anti-competitive principles that they ever introduced.
3:28:07Good, my pleasure.
3:28:09No, I won't.
3:28:11Yes, sir.
3:28:12I'm just going to do it again.
3:28:24Frank, what about the boat?
3:28:29You got the boat?
3:28:32I'll check that out, by the way.
3:28:36Yes, you're in here.
3:28:39Yeah, you stay right here.
3:28:51You stay right here.
3:29:31for the purpose of sort of just talking to these guys.
3:29:34I don't know anything about these subjects, John, on the slightest.
3:29:38Like I said, they had a lot of things about class action bills and all things like that.
3:29:45I thought you were going to buy them a drink and thank them for their help.
3:29:53Somebody sent this in?
3:29:59No, it's all right.
3:30:00I guess they're just trying to please me.
3:30:01All of that is what it looks like.
3:30:03It's about $3 getting back together.
3:30:04I'm looking to get real close to the table now.
3:30:08The SST will not be loaded until tomorrow afternoon.
3:30:11They're sort of plowing their way through the building.
3:30:14They haven't come to the point where they can get to that yet.
3:30:17Let me ask you something.
3:30:18I've got a little distraction about that.
3:30:24I was just in and said that Clark McGregor is having apoplexy because he's having dinner for those GOP senators that are going to come up for elections and he's not supposed to come.
3:30:33Now, God damn it, I'm not going to go to that dinner.
3:30:35I cannot drop by dinner's members of the staff.
3:30:38I'll have them sometime.
3:30:41But, you know, like he had a charter of marching.
3:30:43I don't have a charter of marching, but I can't go while the gang is down and down.
3:30:47I don't know how to speak.
3:30:49That's absolutely what I have.
3:30:51What are you doing?
3:30:52What's the policy?
3:30:53We wanted Weinberger to get together.
3:30:57It's a stupid way to do it.
3:30:58You wanted Weinberger to get together with the senators that were up for re-election.
3:31:05Senator's up for re-election as far as I know.
3:31:06But you've got to do it one by one.
3:31:08You can't do it at a dinner where everybody's having a cocktail.
3:31:11Because each guy's interest is conflicted with other guys' interests.
3:31:16The point is, we've got Bob.
3:31:16I just want it understood that I am not dropping Bob.
3:31:19dinners or cocktail parties that members of the staff have, members of the center, I'll have, where I'm not going to drop Bob and be, can you explain it to Clark?
3:31:28Yeah, I just can't do it, but everybody's got people in, others have got people in.
3:31:31No, I told him, Alex brought up a good few people, and he doesn't, apparently he didn't get the word.
3:31:38And I'll be glad, I'll be glad that if he wants to set up so that I have a, if I, if he wants to bring it up so that I have a dinner for them,
3:31:48or a reception, or have them in the office.
3:31:51I have a whole bunch, but I do not want to drop by a cocktail party with those people.
3:31:57You know what I mean?
3:31:58He's got some staff people dropping by, and I think that's different.
3:32:02He's dropped by, he's out of the league, dropped by.
3:32:06It's just you, you're the only one.
3:32:08You're important.
3:32:14I'm not such a good idea to talk about anything early, because we can't have the captain work their grand butts off to everyone in the area.
3:32:23The captain officers see these bastards in their offices and go, well, I mean, John sees them all the time.
3:32:28They're down there, you know, asking for something they shouldn't have.
3:32:31And I'm just not for it.
3:32:32No, I'm just not for it.
3:32:33I'm not going to do it.
3:32:35You shouldn't do it.
3:32:37He shouldn't be with the group.
3:32:39That's a group anyway.
3:32:42No, no.
3:32:42Then they get in and decide that everyone else is going to, you know, when he's committed to come to his state, he wants to push something and it's a political meeting and they're up for re-election and that is not the thing to do.
3:32:54I'm not doing anything political.
3:32:56That's the other reason.
3:32:59It's a good...
3:33:01The original idea of getting Weinberger working with each of these guys was a good idea, just to make sure Weinberger got into it.
3:33:08Oh yeah.
3:33:10The track goes, but I don't think taking them in mass is going to accomplish that.
3:33:15That's five o'clock.
3:33:18That's Eastland.
3:33:20Oh, yeah.
3:33:21It was merely for the purpose that Eastland had never been there.
3:33:25They've done such an outstanding job.
3:33:27It's just been a few minutes.
3:33:30Talking socially, it might be bad, but during your time as a court, that sort of operation could, and not to get into the issues, but...
3:33:38There's...
3:33:39I can talk to the director.
3:33:42I can talk to the director.
3:33:44My director was raising a point of privilege that he should be interested.
3:33:49No.
3:33:49He was calling me off the phone.
3:33:51No, no, no.
3:33:52No, no, no.
3:34:00We're there, and I think he's going to appreciate it if he can talk to me a little.
3:34:05He's coming back from Mississippi to do it.
3:34:07This is a cotton plant at the time, isn't it?
3:34:09Yeah.
3:34:11Maybe we're running out of cotton anyway.
3:34:12I'm going to have a little trouble with the length of this.
3:34:15Nothing else I can do.
3:34:16We'll arrange for it.
3:34:18Are you sure?
3:34:19If you want surgery, I'm out here.
3:34:22I'll take more of those next.
3:34:26But we'll have it here in a few days.
3:34:30I'm going to walk over there.
3:34:34You got that all down?
3:35:05If you know
3:35:40and then we hit her and they walk.
3:35:43One-way.
3:35:45A bit.
3:35:46And one-way walk.
3:35:49No orders.
3:35:49Quick piece of information for you.
3:35:54Remember when we were discussing the first quarter GMP?
3:35:57Yeah.
3:35:58It was a record breaker, but we were sorry it wasn't a 30-year-old veteran.
3:36:03Yeah.
3:36:04They've gotten their additional information in there.
3:36:09They have their revised figure, which they're going to publish on Friday, and it's 30.8.
3:36:14It's up, but it gets up above, out of the 20s, into the 30s.
3:36:18Now, this is a revised figure.
3:36:20Dependence has risen in the first quarter.
3:36:23What?
3:36:23It's just a dependence rise in the first quarter.
3:36:2530.8.
3:36:25Well, now, how in the hills did they beat $2 billion off, George?
3:36:30Well, you remember, I thought they were... You remember, um, Kenny, George, we... John, we were sitting down.
3:36:36We were waiting for a response.
3:36:38comment on this when you get through.
3:36:40Let me go ahead.
3:36:41Sit down, sir.
3:36:42Let me say, Charlie and I were sitting over a minute ago.
3:36:45I mean, I didn't.
3:36:46It's me.
3:36:46I care about you.
3:36:48I care about you.
3:36:49Everybody knows nothing about me.
3:36:50And we were sitting over at the little red room over here.
3:36:57And, uh, you know, he kind of could tell that something had hit him like, you know, like,
3:37:04He said, well, it was only $28,000.
3:37:05I said, geez, that sounds good to me.
3:37:09His eyes opened for $30,000.
3:37:09Now, how could they do $2,000,000 off?
3:37:14Is this the real figure then?
3:37:16That would still be another division.
3:37:19The reasonable another division.
3:37:21But I think it's almost sure because how does it work?
3:37:27Tell us how it works.
3:37:30uh... uh... uh...
3:37:59The preliminary figure always comes out before they really know very much about the last month of the quarter.
3:38:06So they put this figure out.
3:38:09There was something about Marsh, but they really didn't have the figure.
3:38:13George Schultz has got a little piece of...
3:38:28And the first quarter, instead of being up 28.5, it was up 30.8.
3:38:31So we did get up above the $30 billion mark.
3:38:34And that's really, it's a 7.1% real increase instead of 6.5%.
3:38:37That's not the highest quarter-to-quarter increase ever, but in percentage terms, it's
3:38:58There were a few quarters back in the 60s.
3:39:00So that really shows that our thinking hasn't been too far off.
3:39:10Correct.
3:39:10In terms of our annual estimate, anything that goes in the first quarter, of course, will count four times, so to speak, in the average.
3:39:20So it's much better to get the rise in the first quarter than the last.
3:39:28Yes.
3:39:29Yeah.
3:39:30Okay.
3:39:30Yeah.
3:39:31That's a Friday note.
3:39:33So Friday is an announcement day.
3:39:40Well, of course.
3:39:41No, this is a 1065 that everybody's had so much fun with.
3:39:48It's an average for the year 1971.
3:39:50So...
3:39:53You expect to have the end of the year be way above 1065, and the beginning of the year, first quarter, is below.
3:40:02And the further up you get in the first quarter, it accumulates, of course.
3:40:08You start from one and you keep moving up.
3:40:11So the further up you get in the first quarter toward the 1065, the less average and difficulty you have, and that stays with you all the way.
3:40:22George, while you're here, I spent a little time with Ron Reagan yesterday.
3:40:28He says that some of the people around him, I didn't get into the details, some of the people around him, including the business community and so forth, are saying that our Democrat House people in the Labor Department, and he didn't mention Commerce, are screwing around with these figures that we have.
3:40:46Is there any way to check that?
3:40:48He says they're unapplied figures.
3:40:50They're unapplied figures.
3:40:51Well, I don't have very great confidence in them, but we should be distracted by all of them, and particularly the next spokesman, who is a professor in that stream version of the same one, so that we know we've cut out this, this, this.
3:41:01Oh, very good thinking, and the best thing you ever did, the best thing you ever did, they squealed about it for a while, but it's done now.
3:41:07And that's the way it should be.
3:41:09Look, figures are figures.
3:41:11Now, in opinions, a figure is something else.
3:41:13There's only one opinion, and that's the opinion of the administration.
3:41:18And then other people have their opinions, but not with any administration, they're not going to have three or four opinions on those same figures.
3:41:24But he claims it's very hard for them to fool around with the employment figures, particularly the household survey.
3:41:33Because the main words on these GNP figures are, these are rather mysterious, in my opinion.
3:41:40Are they?
3:41:40And why do you think that we move
3:41:44Why would they be that far off?
3:41:45Because you see, what I was starting to say is that the...
3:41:50Here we are, you see, we're in early May.
3:41:53It was early April when they put this out.
3:41:56They didn't have very much in the way of information about March.
3:41:59They knew about January, they knew about February, they knew a little bit about March as a big month, and they tended to extrapolate the first two months into a third one.
3:42:08Why March came in very strong was why did they put them out then?
3:42:14with all this extrapolation?
3:42:16Well, I guess it's part of the process of trying to provide the best information as early as possible on the question of guessing as to when you would put out figures of some kind.
3:42:27But nevertheless, George, this is a darn good figure, and it's really a good one right now.
3:42:34Now, in this case, though, can we talk about it?
3:42:41I don't think we should send Paul over that on this one.
3:42:45Paul McCracken.
3:42:49He said he isn't going to play the positive people.
3:42:52This is an end of positive numbers.
3:42:55Oh, yeah.
3:42:56Well, this ticks the wind out of the people who are saying they're going to work on it after that last week on the climate figures.
3:43:07Let's not march.
3:43:09I don't know, I don't think Connelly understands it as well, more than I do.
3:43:14I think you do, I think.
3:43:15I don't think so.
3:43:16You see, at one point, we already had John, and then having Eleanor, and trying to do this thing with shells, and people over here, and burns, and then there's basically the burns,
3:43:38And there's, of course, in between the crack and the sort of rise of both sides.
3:43:42George, this is your ballpark where you're a budget and all the rest of it.
3:43:47I agree with you, though.
3:43:50If it is kind of a number, it's got to be done positively.
3:43:56Now, in terms of being done positively, I noticed I reflected Herb's, or Kwan Herb's, side angle feels that we shouldn't be talking about.
3:44:06Too often, I should be, because we'll get bad amounts of silver.
3:44:08Oh, we will.
3:44:10I guess on unemployment, you can't figure that anything's going to happen there.
3:44:13How long do you think it's going to take?
3:44:14Six months before it starts to move a little?
3:44:17I think it'll move sooner or later.
3:44:20All right, there's unemployment.
3:44:22Like I said earlier, CPI, that'll bounce up and down.
3:44:25But this is a very important number.
3:44:32Isn't this the one where they said that the Nixon administration is much too optimistic with regard to its economy, but don't you think it removes a lot of that?
3:44:45Well, it certainly sets them back.
3:44:49They are most severe critics.
3:44:52About two weeks before this first quarter, the preliminary was announced.
3:44:55We're predicting a $22 billion increase.
3:44:59Now it's a $30 billion increase.
3:45:01They were almost a third off in the change, not too low.
3:45:06And, you know, we were saying, you fellas all estimate too low because you don't understand the vitality of the private enterprise business.
3:45:13Even your friend Arthur Burns hitched considerably on this one, doesn't he?
3:45:17Yes, he did.
3:45:18I don't want to imply that we're in or anything, but this is a good thing.
3:45:24Isn't this right on your estimate?
3:45:30It's still a little below our... How much below?
3:45:36On the council's, it's about $2 billion or so.
3:45:40Well, they were looking between $33 and $35 billion for the council.
3:45:45Our blackers, little bottles, show an increase of...
3:45:53About $32 billion given the money supply business.
3:45:56So it's too bad about $30.8 billion.
3:45:58This is $30.8 billion.
3:46:00It's rising.
3:46:01The reason I think when they uniquely admire human resource, they look at the gross national product from two sides.
3:46:10It's sort of like dental entry booking.
3:46:13There's a production side and there's an income side.
3:46:17And they match more or less.
3:46:20Now, the income side, in a sense, looks stronger even than the production side.
3:46:24I think you can pull this up in the review.
3:46:29Also, I believe there is in the works, and this is technical and it really isn't sort of a legitimate point in a way, but nevertheless, I think it will help us.
3:46:40This is talking about the rate of interest, but they have underestimated
3:46:48some of the payments in the system, so that the whole level is due.
3:46:52Each July they revise the level chart, and after revising the level, that won't boost this 30-point case, but it will attach it to an action chart, and this number is the whole price it will get paid off.
3:47:06Oh, that's bad.
3:47:08Is this true, Disney?
3:47:09I wonder if...
3:47:19As far as I know it is, but maybe they're still cussing with it.
3:47:22I don't think they would tell me if that was bad.
3:47:24Well, if they are, I think they ought to get it out before Friday.
3:47:27You know what I mean?
3:47:29It will never hold.
3:47:30It will never hold.
3:47:32Don't you agree, John?
3:47:33I would think it would leak everything out.
3:47:35It does.
3:47:36If the number is solid, they ought to get it out before Friday.
3:47:40You can hold them over there.
3:47:43We do pressure them all the time to get it figured out fast.
3:47:48Well, we promise we would.
3:47:51Well, I think it confirms the notion that we shouldn't blow our top.
3:48:05But we do have to watch out that Federal Reserve doesn't start.
3:48:12Because what we've had now, we have two months of much too big monetary growth.
3:48:19Now they're compensating in the other direction.
3:48:22The thing is going up.
3:48:24I'll tell you what I thought you would do, uh, uh, I'm going to pull your head a little bit.
3:48:37You got that?
3:48:52If you want a piece of your churro, we can demonstrate it for you.
3:48:57Now, come on, let's sit down.
3:48:59Now, the observation was made when we were put in that stinking place there, over here.
3:49:07From half of here, it was pretty cold.
3:49:10Let's get over here.
3:49:14What, uh, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh,
3:49:43Do you have also a grant to make a YouTube video?
3:49:49I don't have a grant to make a YouTube video.
3:50:11Who will be the chairman of the committee?
3:50:14I think it will be O'Neill.
3:50:19No?
3:50:19No, he's in the leadership.
3:50:22We'll run with it.
3:50:24We'll run with it.
3:50:27You know, out there in the House, it's just 5%.
3:50:29We didn't have some of the Southern Democrats that put the country first.
3:50:34We'll go right down to two.
3:50:36We're going to run with it.
3:50:37We're going to run with it.
3:50:40He was a fellow conspirator on both of them.
3:50:45And we both loved him.
3:50:49You're not a conspirator.
3:50:51You're an activist.
3:50:54An activist.
3:50:55You say the president certainly made one of your constituents awful happy to appear last week.
3:51:02But leave us alone, Richard.
3:51:05She sat at my table.
3:51:06Yeah.
3:51:06The rest of them used chairs as an example.
3:51:08A little cotton.
3:51:09She had a cotton dress.
3:51:10Yeah, I'm here to search her.
3:51:12She had a wonderful weekend, though.
3:51:14She wore it when I sent it to her.
3:51:17Well, I told a little story about the fact that John Adams, you know, he had all these cattle out there that were on the lawn and everything.
3:51:22I said, John Adams was the first person to live in our house.
3:51:26And you know that he was a great professor.
3:51:29He went to Peter Hall from horticulture.
3:51:31He tried to build silkworms.
3:51:33I said, it failed.
3:51:34Or otherwise, everybody would be wearing silk.
3:51:36I said, well, Mrs. Saunders says she's wearing cotton.
3:51:38I said, well, you can deal with that, too.
3:51:42And that's why we ended up there.
3:51:46respondents, dinner, and where he was at post, and so forth.
3:51:50We go over to the, we've got an actual room called the math room over here, which I'll take you to see in general.
3:51:57Well, it's the room that Roosevelt used as the situation room in World War II.
3:52:04You know, where he put all the maps up and put little darts in, and now Chris is over here in the basement.
3:52:13And then for many, many years, it was out of use.
3:52:16It was sliced up.
3:52:18The doctor used part of it, and the other half.
3:52:22We discovered it, and my wife loved it.
3:52:23And so we tore up the partition, restored it to the famous room, and also to the barn, which wasn't mine.

Nixon, Shultz & Ehrlichman on Revenue Sharing and Welfare Reform

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