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Conversation 005-059

TapeTape 5StartSunday, June 13, 1971 at 3:09 PMEndSunday, June 13, 1971 at 3:22 PMTape start time01:44:44Tape end time01:58:09ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Kissinger, Henry A.Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AudioNARA Description

On June 13, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 3:09 pm to 3:22 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 005-059 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 5-59

Date: June 13, 1971
Time: 3:09 pm - 3:22 pm
Location: White House Telephone

Henry A. Kissinger talked with the President.

[See Conversation No. 256-39]

     Kissinger's itinerary
          -Return to Washington

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BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3
[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 57s ]

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    Vietnam casualty figures
         -President's conversation with Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
         -Compilation
         -Missing in action [MIA]

    Le Duc Tho
        -Travel plans
        -North Vietnamese-People's Republic of China [PRC] relations

    Pentagon Papers-New York Times news leak
         -Haig's reaction
         -Effect
              -Lyndon B. Johnson, John F. Kennedy, Robert S. McNamara
              -North Vietnam
              -"Nixon's war"
         -Administration response
              -John N. Mitchell
         -Leaker of Pentagon Papers

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BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 4
[Privacy]
[Duration: 33s ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 4

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              -Mitchell and possible criminal action
              -Possible Congressional action
              -Timing
         -Clark M. Clifford
         -Johnson's possible response
         -Effect
              -North Vietnam

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BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 5
[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 7s ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 5

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    New York Times-Pentagon Papers issue
        -Administration's response
        -Freeman Gosden
              -Reaction
                   -John Foster Dulles
        -Administration response

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BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 6
[Privacy]
[Duration: 26s ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 6

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               -New York Times
               -Clifford
          -Actions
               -Joseph McCarthy
               -Treason
          -Security of White House files
               -William P. Rogers, Melvin R. Laird
                     -Laos, Cambodia

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BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 1m 13s ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2

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Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hello.
Mr. President, I have Dr. Kissinger calling you.
Okay.
Thank you.
Mr. President.
Hello.
Mr. President.
Hi, Henry.
How are things in California?
Well, I just got here, and I'm going to leave very early in the morning, so I'll be back in the early afternoon.
Oh, I see.
I see.
okay fine see uh i understand you've talked to yeah i talked to him about that to haig already and i just wanted to yeah yeah to check in actually things are fairly quiet we've got the casualties now and unfortunately they're higher than what i told you yesterday they're about 23.
Yeah.
That's just four above what we had.
Yeah.
They must have picked up some missing in action.
The trouble with the daily casualties is that they don't reflect the ones that died that were wounded the previous week.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, on the other hand, my God, Henry, to 1923, good heavens.
Oh, yeah.
It's just down to nothing.
That's right.
I mean, it's...
And the more I've thought about Lee Doctoe coming west, I'm not saying they're going to accept it, but if they were just going to kick us in the teeth, they wouldn't need him there.
No.
So they at least got to explore.
Yeah, well, particularly if our Chinese friends lean on him a little, they will.
That's right, and he's stopping it.
And they just might lean on him a little.
Yeah.
Well, we'll get the answer in a day or two.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the Hague was very disturbed by that New York Times thing.
I thought that was an unconscionable damn thing for them to do.
Of course, it's unconscionable on the part of the people that leaked it.
Fortunately, it didn't come out in our administration.
According to Hague, it all relates to the two previous administrations.
Is that correct?
That is right.
But my point is, are any of the people there who participated in this thing
And leaking it, that's my point.
Do we know?
In public opinion, it actually, if anything, will help us a little bit because this is a goldmine of showing how the previous administration got us in there.
I didn't read the thing.
Give me your view on that in a word.
It shows massive mismanagement of how we got there.
And it pins it all on Kennedy and Johnson.
Yeah.
So from that point of view, it helps us.
From the point of view of the relations with Hanoi, it hurts a little because it just shows a further weakening of resolve and a further big issue.
I suppose the Times ran it to try to affect the debate this week or something.
Well, I don't think it's going to have that kind of effect.
No, because in a way it shows what they've tried to do.
I think they outsmarted themselves because they had put themselves, they had sort of tried to make it Nixon's war.
And what this massively proves is that if it's anybody's war, it's Kennedy's and Johnson's.
Yeah.
So that the Democrats now pleading about where we went wrong, or what we're doing wrong, this graphically shows who is responsible for the basic mess.
Yeah.
So I don't think it's having the effect that they intend.
Well, you know...
It may not have the effect it may.
The thing, though, that, Henry, that to me is just unconscionable, this is treasonable action on the part of the bastards that put it out.
Doesn't it involve secure information, a lot of other things?
What kind of people would do such things?
It has the highest classification.
It's treasonable.
There's no question.
It's actionable.
I'm absolutely certain.
that this violates all sorts of security laws.
What do we do about it, don't we ask?
I think I should talk to Mitchell.
Yeah.
No, I think he should.
You tell Mitchell that...
If this is not an occasional leak, it's bad enough.
But this is everything the Defense Department will say.
Yeah.
Let me ask this.
Call Mitchell.
I think you should talk to Mitchell and ask him about his just calling us, getting this fellow in.
uh on the purpose of a this was a security leak and we want to know what does he have did he do it and put him under oath that's right i think we ought to do that i think we ought to wait till another another thing to do would be to be to have a congressional committee call him in i think we ought to do it after wednesday the congressional committee could call him in put him under oath you know and then he's guilty of perjury if he lies
But I think we ought to wait until after the vote before they get it all resumed.
Oh, I agree.
Well, you couldn't do it before the end anyway, but, you know, you have to get it all set up.
Because you've got to have the questions and the investigations and know what it is.
Well, we're not going to get disturbed.
These things happen, you know.
Clifford pops off and this guy pops off.
I would think it would infuriate Johnson, wouldn't you?
Oh, God.
Basically, it doesn't hurt us.
Domestically, I think, I'm no expert on that, but no one reading this
can then say that this president got us into trouble.
If this is an indictment of the previous administration, it hurts us with annoy because it just shows how far our demoralization has gone.
It's gone.
But basically, I think the decision they have to make is
do they want to settle with you, they know damn well that you are the one who's helped them, and no matter how much anyone else is demoralized, it doesn't make any difference.
Yeah.
Right, right.
Well, you'll find things out there pleasant enough.
Well, that's a long trip for you, but I wouldn't... That's what I... Don't worry about this Times thing.
I just think we've got to expect that kind of crap, and we just plow ahead, plow ahead.
Well, Mr. President, if we succeed in two out of three, as you said... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But this will look like pygmy.
If we can...
But, boy, you're right about one thing.
If anything was needed to underline what we talked about Friday or Saturday morning about...
about really cleaning house when we have the opportunity.
By God, this underlines it.
Oh, yes.
And people have got to be put to the torch for this sort of thing.
This is terrible.
God was on that plane with me and he... Freeman?
Yeah.
Yeah, he's a great fellow.
Oh, he worships you.
What did he think about all of this stuff?
He said it's just what you have to put up with.
He said he could never imagine it.
He said, well, Dulles, he blames the State Department, which is wrong in this case, because they have nothing to do with this one.
No, I know.
But he said Dulles always used to say that he had to operate alone because he couldn't trust his own bureaucracy.
Yeah, I know.
I said, well, that was good for Dulles, but we pay for it now because we're stuck with the bureaucracy.
That's right, that's right.
Well, I just wish that we operated without the bureaucracy.
We do.
All the good things that are being done without... We do, we do, we do.
Well, anyway, I'll tell you what, on the Mitchell thing, I just have him examine what the options are.
And the Times will justify it on the basis that it serves the national interest.
Is that right?
Of course.
My God.
My God.
You know, can you imagine the New York Times doing a thing like this 10 years ago?
Even 10 years ago.
Mr. President, and then when McCarthy accused them of treason, they were screaming bloody murder.
This is treason.
That's right.
No, whatever they may think of the policy, it is treasonable to take this stuff out.
Oh, it's one thing to...
It serves the enemy.
It's another thing to print ten pages of top secret documents that are only about two or three years old.
They have nothing from our administration.
So actually, I've read this stuff.
We come out pretty well in it.
Well, somebody over there got the stuff that we got.
Although, I asked Hague about that, and he says, well, look, our file, as far as the White House is concerned, we're pretty damn secure.
On the other hand, of course, naturally, whenever I've had to call Rogers and mail in on some of these on Laos and Cambodia, you can be sure all that's in some file.
But, Mr. President, all the big things you've done in the White House, and those files will leave with you.
Yeah, that's right.
What I meant though, that's true of the files, but I mean, these guys of course will have made in their own records.
They'll indicate what I've ordered, you know.
Well, let's not worry about that.
Thank you.
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