On May 20, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Ronald L. Ziegler, Henry A. Kissinger, unknown person(s), John A. Scali, Tricia Nixon Cox, and Rose Mary Woods met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:05 pm to 12:48 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 502-012 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Yes, sir.
Oh, that's right.
You did.
You did.
You slowed your pace, and you looked up, and you said, and it's, it's, I think that, that kind of thing, all it takes, I'll bet, you know, the comment, I'll be, it was good that he looked up and looked right into the camera, you know.
People, the one sentence of that establishes that, even though you've read the rest of it.
You looked at it quite a bit, and I read it too.
But the thing of staying on the camera at the end is good.
But there's a hell of a lot.
You sit there, turn the TV on, and there's a soap opera grinding away and everything.
And then they cut, and they say, in 30 seconds, we'll be going live to the White House for a major foreign policy announcement by the president.
And then they go into the commercials and stuff at the break.
And they cut to the presidential seal and the commentator saying that, in just a moment, the president of the United States will enter the White House press room to make a major foreign policy announcement.
And then is there, just in the middle of saying that, they cut and they say, ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States, you come in, go up there, go right into the announcement, read it, look up and say, write to the guy at home, this is what this means to you, in effect.
and turn around and walk out.
And it just, you know, it just hits, and they all just sit there, and then, that Never Rather came back on, and Capelo on his, and Chance on his, and, uh, they came, they couldn't have said anything yet.
Yeah, they're on.
They came right on.
You know, as soon as you walked out of the room, you start flexing.
They came on.
No, no.
And Rather said, uh,
He was going to, you know, the impact of it all, obviously, even though he knew what was coming, took him back.
He had said beforehand he was going to make a major foreign policy announcement.
And he said, now, he said, if you're sitting there wondering exactly what's happened, let me explain.
He said the President of the United States requested time this morning from the networks.
Secretly, we did not know that this had been requested, and he said the reason for that
The timing on this is obviously a simultaneous announcement with Moscow.
And you notice how I inserted the words 12 p.m. Washington, 7 p.m. Moscow.
That's very important.
People like to feel that.
Sure.
It's part of it.
You're part of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The drama of that, the value of the drama of that is that the whole thing will replay tonight on the news.
You won't reach many people now with it.
They'll play that, you know, they'll play that all the time.
It took me two minutes.
Three minutes.
Just three minutes.
The whole thing, from the time you started to the time you finished.
That's just right, too.
They were able to use five, but three minutes was something.
They have to use all the way you got there, because it's all, you know, it flows.
Right through, and they uh, so now they're trying to explain what all the capitalists, going back down to the salt talks with Bogdan, explaining what the salt talks are, and all that.
You notice how I use the term, I don't know what you're teaching in our talks,
Limitation of nuclear arms.
Yeah.
Or did you get it that way?
Yes, I did.
Yes.
See, I said, nuclear arms.
I used it this morning at the cabinet meeting, too, you know.
I used the simple words that people understand.
Nuclear arms, a limitation of nuclear arms.
Now, they all don't understand.
It's hard to get it.
The main thing is they'll understand something important.
We have to work on it.
As long as you're stuck with breaking the stalemate on nuclear arms talks.
Tensey negotiating Irby required a transition to having a concrete agreement.
It expresses the commitment, and you know, this was a good one, of the Soviet and American governments at the highest levels to achieve that goal.
And that was said strongly.
If we succeed in this joint-state mission, they will maybe as be remembered.
There's a smile on there and all that sort of thing, but I guess that's what they needed to.
I think it was probably very solemn.
It had impact, though.
It was very strong.
You know, you came in strong.
You went right into the statements.
You didn't go through a lot of repression.
I'm glad you're here.
But I said it could happen, ladies and gentlemen.
I thought that was good to say that.
Ladies and gentlemen, as you know, I thought a little bit of an introduction was good.
And then the whole, no, I think it was good.
Doing something fast like that, there's an awful lot of merit to that.
I mean, just bang them, get out of it.
It has, in many ways, much more impact than giving a 50-figure speech version.
You just whack them.
Boy, they're going to say what you've got to say and get off it.
And let them figure out what it's all about, what they're all on to.
There is going to be some talk, which there is.
Because you know, they handled it just as delicately as Henry did, the Patriot Initiative taken by the president in January.
of significant development and the fact that there would be discussions on ABM and offensive weapons.
Yes, sir.
All of them did.
Oh, and then Rather went on.
This is great.
Now, mind you, this is because he's dramatic.
Mind you, this is only in the speculative area at this time.
But the reference to the highest level indicates that President Nixon and either Kosygin and Brezhnev and the Kremlin had direct negotiations on this.
But he said, mind you, that's only specular level for the moment.
But it was a good feel to the whole thing.
It was just perfect.
That was a good way to do it.
That was the right way to do it.
Yes, sir.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'll tell you, you were worried about production.
The picture was getting good.
It was excellent.
They showed you coming in, and then the press stood up when you were announced, and they got in the way when they stood up, and that added to it.
It was great, because they got the backs of their heads, and then you said, Yes, sir.
It was perfect.
Wow.
And the...
The little added after it was over was just the right tone.
Looking right at it.
Looking right at it.
That was a tight thing I was trying to grope it for yesterday when we talked.
And that was perfect.
No, because you said if we succeed.
If we succeed.
They can never get you from Europe.
And you said may well, not will.
But I'm glad we got the wires, too, because the
wording of the... Do these guys all realize the significance of that?
Oh, hell, yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
Henry is a little disappointed with the lawyers.
He said the rest of his members... Well, look, that's great.
See, because that's fine.
It's better when you're working with a guy doing the first bulletin leaf or not understanding the way you're telling it.
Because then he has to do it just the way Henry said.
And I kept whispering to Henry several times, you know, to make that point.
He did.
It was beautiful.
Yeah.
Do you see the guy's feedback in the material?
Just as you just said that they fed back every goddamn thing.
Every word.
They were so, you know, overwhelmed by it that there was nothing they could do except play back.
Those three things, Mr. President, have been the best in those days.
Yeah, we always said that you're a big poet and don't waste yourself on... What's that poet in the New Republic?
John.
That's the one you always try to get him to see.
Why don't you ever see Marianne Leans?
He speaks to the president, but not here.
No, they speak to the president.
Fort Henry, I felt the statement was just right.
Good.
Excellent.
I don't think that last sentence overstated anything.
If that succeeded, you noticed I changed the word may?
It wasn't will, it may?
It couldn't be.
This may well, may we, may, may be remembered as the value point.
If we succeed in there, nobody can...
saying anything about overselling.
Well.
Not the way you said it, but the questions keep running.
There's still a lot of differences because it says in certain areas, et cetera.
I don't know how you're going to do it.
I don't want to claim any victory or anything of that sort.
But Hillary's made that point very well.
We are breaking in.
No, it's a mutual understanding.
It's mutual standing, mutual credit, everybody.
Somebody told me, Chancellor, that it might be one of the happier days here in the White House.
One of the happier?
Yes.
Rather fed back what you said, of course.
The cow had to concede that this was indeed a...
There wasn't nobody.
I had no vote at all.
Not a thing or anything.
That's what it was.
Absolutely.
What did they do when you start setting different cameras in there?
Well, they were the home started, the bus started, and so forth.
And then at about 10.20, right at 10.20, I walked out and I said, ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States will have a statement on foreign policy here at 12 noon.
I said, the president's now meeting with the bipartisan leadership.
Turned, walked in.
They moved on the wire.
President of the United States, statement of 12 noon.
They know he had the cabinet.
Well, they knew, of course.
The president met at 9 o'clock with the cabinet.
He's now meeting with the leadership, bipartisan leadership, who have a statement of 12 noon.
And they said, is it an important statement?
I said, yes, it's an important statement.
I thought the PMs were also impressed when they asked me, how long have you had this?
He looked down and said, oh, the principal
over a week, but I wanted to mention it.
And the final details of the announcement were settled before the vote.
Even the NATO issue, it should be done entirely separately.
Even though they don't have the wide circulation, I'm glad you took that five minutes.
We have a few minutes in there where we got a couple guys who are right on deadline who, you know, determine the headline.
Oh, yeah, but you just made the four basic points, didn't you?
They understood.
They went out and phoned, and the thing really worked.
It's funny.
I really think, though, that the people that are going to die are going to call us.
And right now, what in the hell?
What?
What would I tell him about our domestic policy is completely our own, Senator?
What would kill Kraft is that he made this contentious column in which he, in fairness, has to be blamed, it's obvious, for nothing any good.
But he said, whatever chance there is, it's ruined by you.
Because they don't want to make a deal with you, they hate you so much.
So they're waiting?
So here they are.
The man feels the impression that makes his peace.
Now they let you come right back with this, then.
I want to be sure, Bob, that Colson or people really get a crack on that and say, you know what I mean?
But, because he, you know, he reached his hand out and said, I'd like you to explain this.
We all just, we didn't fix it.
We just divided your columns, you know, and we did, but we were, this does present a problem, and we hope you can write a column, you know what I mean?
To explain it to us, it's our whole cause, and now it's down to the deer team.
Well, how about it?
i just want to be sure i don't know how you can handle this problem though we don't want us business of the soviet came to our position because they'll they'll snap back and say they didn't maybe we have to say something publicly in that respect do you think so no i i don't think you can cover that again 12 45 very well you've covered it in your briefings well you can
They moved in some areas, we moved in some areas.
That's right.
I don't want to go into the details, so.
Good, that's good.
Say that, since I've repeated the movement of areas, and I'm not going to go into the details, there are still a number of areas where both sides will have to move.
I put it right like that.
But they can't help to make the point on their own, I don't think.
You know, when they're writing it, it's the fact that the deadlock has been
The Soviets had focused attention on defense, and then the president had said offensive and defensive.
I think they'll draw that conclusion on their own, don't you think?
Sure, but there are some differences in formality and so forth between the two, which was our concession.
I mean, trying to nitpick this one.
The thing is, if I can't get rid of those gun-and-dance hunkers in there today, what poor sports they were.
Well, that's what's so revolting in Fulbright.
If we were a big man, he would have said, Mr. President, I've opposed you violently on a lot of things.
I've opposed you again.
My hat is off to you.
This is good news for the country.
Anything like that, that would have given...
Even Mike was not very generous today.
Of course, he just gave an appeal.
But I...
He was all right.
He says, what should we say?
And I said, well, you should say, we're not going to... We've got to agree that the Fort Charleston president had a statement.
But I don't understand how people...
They would really give more credibility to their attacks...
If they show some generosity.
He said, right now, the elder is speaking, he says, in terms of time, maybe a later time, but right now, of course, I don't think we would make it in terms of something.
You were there.
No.
But the whole thing, I really thought, I misjudged him.
I really thought they used this opportunity to say, no.
Fulbright didn't say a word, did he?
Never.
Well, none of us ever said so.
He knocked everything out from under him.
I tell you, I've seen him in those meetings, and he smoked, you know.
When you began to refer to Salt, it's the first time I've ever seen him in one of those meetings.
And a smoker will do that when his adrenaline's up.
He reached in his pocket and lit up a cigarette.
Just one of those things that, you know, came up to the edge of his chair.
He knew what was happening.
He's been saying that Salt's grown up, that he doesn't even read the bed.
Did Albert come to me?
No.
You know what?
In an important meeting with the Capitol Architect about space,
Oh, that crazy bastard.
I mean, is that something that should get out?
You're damn right it should.
It should get out.
There's a lot to be destroyed.
What the hell?
The speaker in the house did not come out for a reason of this magnitude.
This is enormous.
I think it ought to get out.
I mean, but, you know, from some source, we will get caught.
Yeah.
And he really, he really deserves a kick in the ass.
We've got to get a reporter to call the speaker and ask him why he wasn't in the meeting.
See what he says.
That's the best way to do it.
Because the guy, you know, he pulls up like he wasn't there when the heck he had to make the decision.
They know he's there because he's released the list.
But it wasn't hard.
Have a reporter.
Have you got a reporter to call?
But will he tell the truth?
Not harsh.
No, he won't.
But we'll send him.
He'll lie, and then we'll get the lie out.
That's even better.
How could he lie?
It's the kind of state he's having.
He just had a very important meeting or something.
And then the reporter just said, what is the order in which he put it out?
Then the reporter should say, what is the lie?
Well, I think a reporter can ask you to say a response to the question.
Well, the speaker had a meeting at the house right off the market.
He had a meeting.
He had to ask you.
He said, we were at the house.
He had a white woman speaker there.
The speaker was invited, but he had a meeting with the capital architect.
To talk about space in the Capitol.
Yeah, well, there's that meeting under the Capitol Archive, which he...
It really is not the only thing to break away from.
That's the attitude these bastards have on the presidency and everything else.
Can you imagine?
When the President of the United States summons the congressional leaders down for a foreign policy, which we all know... You don't call people at 11 o'clock at night.
to tell him to be here at 11, 10 o'clock in the morning.
I called George and he delighted.
What did he say?
Congratulations proves that you're holding firm.
And he said, you know, on foreign policy, we have no difference.
I called LBJ.
Congratulations.
He was good.
Was he happy?
Oh, yeah.
And I said, of course, we all recognize you highly worthy.
Sure.
I remember I told you to call Howard Stein.
I'll call them.
They don't need advance warning.
I have an hour set aside.
I called McCloy.
He's enthusiastic.
He understands.
Oh, yeah.
I called Rockefeller, and he's up in the clouds.
He understands.
Yeah.
He understands.
It'll last about as long as it's trying to.
that was three big but i think the combination rocky made the point that the combination of china and this is going to knock our opponents off stride because they can't how he it's also my view but he said this on his own what else he made me answer what it does i still think it you don't have to be very sophisticated to get this if i get it is that it still implies
There's a lot going on down here, people bumping around and making statements and interface.
And up here, there's a level of policy development going on, which is just moving on ahead, moving out.
None of the newsmen, after all, the crowd has to be in every one of my readings.
None of the newsmen.
And this was...
was looking to knock holes into, when I read from Vietnam, it's a basically hostile, and they're texting me.
On this one, they were trying to make me look good, and if somebody asked, particularly with the PMs, or even with Bishop, and they asked either uninformed questions, or questions that the others would correct, but they now read it, read it, it says it.
Really?
Yes.
I get excited about big news, too.
Somehow one of them had it in his head that we were going to do the ABM first and then.
And some other fellow pointed it out, no, it's H together with.
Together with?
Well, sure.
You notice when I read the statement, I hit that very hard.
They have agreed to conclude at the same time an agreement on limiting certain offensive weapons.
That's just as clear as the crystal ball.
That really worked well in the pressure.
Did it?
It really worked well.
The camera down right in the middle.
That's right.
Right in the river.
All the prep guys were in the back.
Yeah, they were behind the camera and sitting down.
Also, they did.
See, a lot of them on deadline were waiting back in the aisleways so they could get to their phones to file the bulletins.
24.
That's not bad.
The Chinese.
Did you get the message to them earlier that campaign action?
No, I thought that the tourists are coming.
It's going to them.
Do you have any questions?
I just talked to the Pakistani ambassador.
I may send it through Farland because the Pakistani ambassador is going to send it.
We'll have to send it.
We have a special code through the Navy which goes only to Farland.
And Farland will give it to the IAEA.
I think you have not received official communication of this.
The president would like you to have the official text.
That's a little courtesy of yours.
That's good.
Well, it may or may not work.
I wonder how Scali... Scali must be feeling pretty good.
Thinking of trouble with Scali, he's so...
He's loaded so much that he's pushing it.
It's a tremendous victory, and I've got to keep him.
Of course, it's a low key.
Now, Scali is...
over until here.
We invited these people as you requested for six o'clock.
And there was.
And there was, including working group people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then all the members of the National Security Council.
And I took care of it.
Stairs, make it nice.
Make sure it was about 45 minutes.
That's not too good.
Oh, yeah, I'll say, we want to thank you for your work, and we're going to say it more formally tomorrow.
We'll be in the front of the box if you want to ask about it and say that your husband's a little way, and we want you to know that the service and the work that comes down.
And the meeting should be only...
as you suggested, with the Smith Group.
I think so.
And I think it should be in here.
I agree.
So we can get a nice picture in this office.
You should do that without Rockingham, without Laird.
Without him.
Fair enough.
Absolutely.
That's what I think.
At this stage, the less talk, the better.
They should just go back, set up the July 1st meeting, get out of it.
Yes, they were having a meeting on implementing the announcement.
And that's it.
Put out a brief one.
That's it.
Smith was very good in the leader's games.
He hit him, he hit him.
He stood up like a rock.
He said it would be a terrible mistake, in effect, to do what Eleanor suggested.
He said, I need this, I don't know.
He just, I just couldn't believe my ears.
Well, Smith, of course, is so flabbergasted at how we got more support, he's being terrified that the cheese would kick him in the teeth.
Well, here he is.
He's been fighting for it for a year and a half.
He's had one hot idea after another.
We had carried him out that we'd be dead now.
But, you know, he wanted to stop where we were.
He wanted you to make... We husbanded the Capitol.
Now you put yourself behind it.
All those like Maynard and Ada and the rest, and Bob Byrd, they couldn't have been nicer.
They said, this is it.
Some of them were both kids.
These little guys.
I'm thankful right here, really.
I really thought he'd have the generosity to say, I've been violently opposed to you.
I'll continue to be opposed to you.
But on this one, I have to say, I'm with you.
He won't say a god, ma'am.
Well, he may say something.
He's got to.
He's forced to.
But whether he agrees with the editor, I think we ought to put him next year.
That's all right.
He'll go right down the queue on that thing.
Well, so long as well.
You're going to have to spend a bit of your reading just after now.
It's an excellent idea.
Who?
Howard?
Oh, Howard.
I was thinking about the other briefing.
I'm sorry.
Very sorry.
Very sorry.
It looks good, because that gives him a little visibility.
He wasn't with me at his time.
Sometimes you can sort it out and get some of these things.
That's the way it is, sir.
I have nothing.
Well, if I'm not at the other, because I can develop the documents better, frankly, when I don't have to worry about the latest feelings.
Any point to be guarded against now, John, I'm just saying to Henry, is this, is, as anybody knows, a significant...
It is not only a significant break, but in another sense, on our part, vis-a-vis the Soviet, in other words, they have come more in our direction, rather than in their direction.
However, that point being may jeopardize the success of the future.
That's why
the whole trust should be that both sides have been, both sides have been negotiated.
There has been a negotiation as there is always when there's basic interests involved.
Both sides were not claiming an eviction or anything like that.
So if you could push that with all the people.
Henry, of course, will push it in his briefings as he did this morning.
Because the main thing I want to do is to have him say some things which will
I understand.
I agree with you.
But, you know, most very wise correspondents will be able to draw their own conclusions.
That's something we have control over.
I heard Dan Rather, and I thought that he handled it very well, based on the brief signal he made.
I'm pretty pleased with that.
All right, please.
All right.
Both leads.
Both runners lead.
The U.P.A.
in a move that eliminates the year-long deadlock in nuclear arms talks.
President Nixon announced today that the United States and the Soviet Union had agreed to simultaneously negotiate limitations on both offensive and defensive weapons.
The President of the United States and the Soviet Union have agreed to work this year toward an agreement on limiting anti-ballistic missiles and on limiting offensive nuclear weapons.
Then on the point we were talking about before,
President Nixon's announcement indicated there may have been some compromise by each side in order to make progress toward an historic agreement to limit the arms race between the two.
That's good.
I like that.
But his national broadcast did not spell this out.
I thought we'd spent just the right amount of time in there today, didn't you?
Three minutes.
Any longer?
Yeah.
You simplify the coverage job, too.
I was somewhat bewildered today by Senator Ellender's logic.
sat there with a goddamn clue.
And really, that was pretty cheap.
But I must say, Jordan Hayden came up afterwards, and Bob Bird, and Eddie Hebert, and John Stennis, and did a wonderful thing.
And we're all for you, and we're supporting you.
There are good men, but these other guys, it's hard to believe.
See, everybody that's voting against ADM, there's nothing about that.
Well, we're going to finish now.
We've got this guy.
Hello?
Hello, Pierce.
Hi.
It's all right.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
Come on.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But he said it was, but he said we had to take a dollar off.
And it's okay.
There'll be more than that.
No, no, no, no.
6 to 7.
It'll be just 45 minutes, actually.
We're just going to have them up in the yellow room.
And what I want to do is to do something different.
It's to open up the windows and the doors so that they can run out there.
This will be the biggest thrill in the life for them.
You see, Rogers will be here, too, and Laird.
It'll be a nice crowd.
OK. Fine.
I hope you and Julie will come.
She said an interesting thing.
She asked what her release was.
That's, I think you may get some of that.
Tricia said that.
What she said was, she was pretty intelligent.
She said, I wondered if it was sharp.
And I said, I realized at first it was not.
First, it was more dramatic to be sharp.
Second, it didn't, by not going on and on about it.
What a great thing this was.
The real problem here is the
There are several problems.
One, sensitivities of state, which you're aware of, and of defense, which you must be aware of.
Henry has played them very, very well, and he was very fine this morning.
The other thing is, but more importantly than anything else, forget the sensitivity to the goddamn Senate.
It's the sensitivities of the Soviet.
We now, I mean, I don't mean that they're tough, ruthless bastards, and this negotiation is going to be hard going, but...
If we do anything, I don't think they're brave at all.
They still need the deal.
They want the deal.
But if we start, if they get the idea that we are growing,
I mean, they're likely to get tougher.
That's the important thing for you to all hands to bear in mind.
And as a matter of fact, you might even tell a responsible university press, like President Joseph Plain, he feels far more important that this isn't a question of credit.
It's a question of both sides moving.
And that's the way we have to do the post-war work.
Another line that you want to use, that I was going to use, and I decided to talk to you about seriously.
Disagreement, when it is reached, will be by far the most significant contribution to a peaceful world since the end of World War II.
By far.
It doesn't matter to me how bad it makes you in terms of that.
That's nothing.
They're still testing.
We are too.
But disagreement, you see,
And it's on our, it's the first degree of significance.
If we go back in history, it perhaps may be the most significant move to control mass destruction in history.
That's right.
I believe it is, because you have more capabilities for it.
Okay.
I wish to have the chance to admit you are the only president since World War II who's managed to get along with both the Soviets and the Chinese.
Yes.
Anyway, how did you get along with Marianne Means?
That's more interesting to me.
She's not number one priority with the president.
Well, give her my best.
Well, that's getting along with both the Russians.
What's it?
You've got a hell of a lot of ties going here.
Very, very.
But among our critics, it's been given a hell of a pause.
They'll think, well, Jesus Christ, what the hell's this fellow up to?
And that's, I mean, that was more than what we thought.
That's exactly, they always underestimate, still they don't know what you're doing in China.
Yeah, yeah, right.
That gave him some, or even now, he kicked him again on this.
I think the move, the very strong move on the NAO team,
I got back there and watched that.
Well, we're doing some things, you know, that, you know, when they believe in what we're doing, they usually screw us.
That's right.
That's right.
It's not unusual to have a big total of... How did you like that, having the very crucial, like the dramatic short statement?
Oh, I didn't do it.
Rather than go in my house, you know, the first statement would have been twice as long.
I kept cutting and cutting and cutting until it was my turn.
I really believe in the church.
I'm all for it.
Why did you come?
It's so dramatic on TV.
It makes so much more impact.
I just woke up for the last paragraph.
That's right.
It was very good.
Even someone, it was a chancellor, I think, who said that it was sort of, this would have been a time when someone could play politics, but that the language both places were, you know, was the same.
And in effect, it's much more dramatic than if you go on and on and on.
You've got to make it look like that.
It's better to downplay it and let it shoot you.
I don't think it's much.
If you've got the, I want you to give a copy of the action letter.