Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Vietnam War negotiations and Berlin Agreement

8:35What's the other day?
8:41Same old stuff.
8:41Keep coming.
8:43More bodies in Yuba City.
8:45That's a string of them.
8:46Twenty-one.
8:47My God.
8:49Twenty-one.
8:50That's right.
8:54It's not only one.
8:56So is it.
8:57All of it.
8:59All between 40 and 65.
9:00There's a guy in the park.
9:04No, he was a Mexican.
9:06The guy was a Mexican who was an agent for itinerant workers.
9:11You know, he shipped them around to them.
9:13He wasn't like workers.
9:17Now, most of them didn't have any money.
9:18Some of them, one guy had 32 cents in his pocket.
9:20One had $6 in his pocket.
9:22How were they murdered?
9:25Machete.
9:26Ooh!
9:27They were stabbed in half.
9:30And they all have their hands above their heads and their shirts pulled up over their hands.
9:35It's a very weird thing.
9:40So how can you get the hands up?
9:45Well, you can do it after you kill them.
9:48Oh, yeah.
9:48But then they had to drag it and pull it up.
9:50Then they had to kill them for you.
9:51Yeah.
9:52So when you kill them...
9:54this machete, and they found the machete, and they found the, what the hell were they doing on the machete?
9:58You've got to go ask somebody how the hell did they, you know, take out the pipe.
10:02It would be an interesting thing.
10:06But, you know, a lot of it is a weird story.
10:09People who steal are all whites, and I know Mexicans.
10:15There's one guy that they think might be a black.
10:21I don't think so.
10:22Apparently he just followed around and sort of signed up, you know, if somebody needed tin workers and he'd go downtown to the tin winos or something.
10:34Well, he's married and has kids.
10:39He walked out in 1967 because they thought he was
10:43potentially dangerous to itself and to others, but then they let him out.
10:48You know, it's funny, something like that kind of comes along as no other than a trigger that sort of captured the attention of one of those detectives in there currently.
11:05You know, I tend to run away from people there twice, but...
11:09One of us bum type of people.
11:11Yeah, we're girls.
11:12Alcoholics.
11:13Domestic news and the Soviet-Arab treaty got downcast and international news did not.
11:21Please have these things.
11:23I'm going to read these things for you.
11:24I'm just so concerned that they did the crucible.
11:31The reports on that are so different.
11:33So you don't really know.
11:34My writers in the state, people feel that they are Saddam Hussein.
11:40Quite restraining, what he said.
11:42And the, the other guy, he got all excited, but said, said, I didn't.
11:46I meant, basically, it was like, they, they have a treaty, and it's like, so we have to fight on this thing, I don't, I'm not signing on the button, and at least, blah, blah, blah, that, but I didn't know this.
11:57And he, because he's influenced by it, and it had been long, you go back, three months ago, they said there was going to be a war, maybe just months ago,
12:09three months, remember, all last summer.
12:12And also this fall, but also again this fall.
12:15And early this year, and again early this year, they started coming in and saying, we're going to have a war.
12:21Now, they were wrong.
12:22They were wrong.
12:23Why this?
12:25Why this?
12:25They were refining what the Jews were telling Henry, you know.
12:28They were going to fight.
12:31The other thing, Bob, is that we've got to have people in our actual lives and
12:37by Paul Rodgers back in the day, because he squeezed the Jews goddamn right.
12:41We can't wait until the 72 elections.
12:44I mean, we can't wait until then, then we'll be in a position where the Jews will, well, this is sure a better time to squeeze them than what we're going to do otherwise, which is go.
12:54And the claimers that they, that they're out there, and this, of course, I didn't draw it in.
13:01We were the claimers, and they were really going to elections.
13:07Did you see that in the rain?
13:08They were waiting.
13:08Yeah, boy.
13:08You had to send those to Rogers, and you had to show along the track.
13:10That's exactly what we were doing.
13:10That's what we were doing.
13:26Is there going to be a short circuit today?
13:30I think so.
13:31I'll try to see.
13:32So excited.
13:32I think it's a way.
13:33Oh, that's right.
13:34I suppose it's not a good smart thing to say.
13:37Well, that's good.
13:38That's good.
13:38I can call him up there, I suppose.
13:43Yes, sir.
13:43Sir, come over here.
13:46I'll try to see.
13:47Okay.
13:47I saw you in here.
13:49Okay.
13:50Thank you.
13:55I'm leaving tomorrow morning.
13:58I'm going to show myself around town today.
14:02I'll go somewhere where people know I was here.
14:05And I'll be back Monday afternoon, so I've left it.
14:07I have no problem with the kind of your comics you know.
14:12My only concern is the fact that some of it is my pale and
14:27But uh...
14:46It's never in the past, not just in my meetings, but when Harriman and Bruce met privately, that's never, they've never been there.
14:52But if it happens, I'll just say that Santini was here.
14:55And by the way, I'll tell you my, by the way, Santini, well, I just said by the way, you were there, you know what I mean?
15:03I wouldn't say you're here, all right?
15:08No, actually I saw Saturday the Air Force One was going over on a training flight and I went along.
15:18I had a table from Rush and we are in a ridiculous position, Mr. President, that the talks are going so well that we may not be able to slow them down enough.
15:32I think they'll have to build an agreement unless there's a snag by the middle of July.
15:39which makes it imperative that I talk to Dobrynin and tell him this is it now, and actually the Russians are making two-thirds of the concession.
15:50That formula we came up with, such the pragmatic things, no legal justification,
15:59Which is actually a great help to us because any legal justification would give East Germany an enhanced status.
16:06While if one just describes who does what.
16:10And the Russians, that's their big concession, have agreed to assume responsibility or some responsibility for full power, for the access to Berlin.
16:19Now I don't kid myself that any time they really want a crisis, they can find administrative reasons.
16:27They can re-load the autobahn or tear up the road.
16:31That is not affected by it.
16:37But that they could do anything.
16:43It's more complicated.
16:49I understand the logic, but the logic is so clear.
16:54You've got to wait.
16:55Those are the things that send them up the wall, et cetera.
16:59And that's the way the domestic is.
17:00And that is one place where...
17:10Oh, yes.
18:24We have one other technical issue which is connected with Latin America.
18:35The Brazilians have established a 200-mile limit, and they want to start enforcing it June 1st.
18:47Now, our problem is that unless we tell them that we're willing to negotiate the fisheries issue with them, they will have to start enforcing it.
19:00We've already agreed to negotiate, but we don't have a formal position yet.
19:05And so there's some debate.
19:06The State Department wants to negotiate now with the Defense Department once they have a showdown.
19:13They're not so concerned about fisheries, but they're concerned about law of the seas.
19:20I would recommend that we tell them we're willing to negotiate in the fall.
19:24That is, because if we don't do it on fisheries, the Latin Americans will oppose us on the more important issue of navigation.
19:32which comes up on the Law of the Seas conference later this year.
19:37While if we can settle Brazil, it's not basically our style country to us.
19:46If we dig in on the fisheries, we lose on navigation.
19:52Well, that's my recommendation, Mr. President.
20:08Let me tell you what my view is on this negotiation.
20:20I would like to make it a much more coarse, blunt statement.
20:31And here's what I have in mind.
20:37and others where you want to clear the record.
20:41I think we have to realize in all candor that the likelihood of this record being made public or becoming an issue is about one-tenth of a thousand.
20:53While it matters, it will be historically important, but it will not be important in terms of what we're trying to accomplish now.
21:02I have a feeling that you ought to go in
21:05this time, without the, only the barest of the formalities.
21:12In other words, I think that I would like to see you start that I have come here at the express orders of the President for the purpose of making a final offer.
21:27And I would have talked about Moe, who got, or any of these others, and I would have talked about...
21:33I wouldn't go into this.
21:34We want to be flexible.
21:35I wouldn't put any of that in at this time.
21:39I'd come here from the express order to the president.
21:43Here is our time.
21:45Here is our office.
21:46And then I'd like to see you start just the way you talked to me at times.
21:50But I'd like to please say we have thought this through.
21:55It is quite apparent that as far as we're concerned,
21:59Uh, the, uh, the, uh, murder negotiation is drawing to a close.
22:04And you know that, let's be realistic.
22:08See, that, uh, that I'd like to, uh, that, uh, break this deadlock and separate the political issues from the military issues.
22:19And we do it now.
22:20That's the one thing, Mr. President, that I think we should not say at that one sentence.
22:25We should do it, because on this one they've already said no.
22:30They might do it in practice.
22:32But everything else, I think, if you don't care about what it looks like when it gets published, this is the better way of doing it.
22:41This is the better way.
22:42I've come here for the express orders, and here it is.
22:52This is the final blood.
22:54Strong, firm.
23:00And then I go right down the line, we're prepared to do this, this, this, this.
23:04Now, on the terminal date, are you prepared to, are you not going to mention a date, or are you just... Not until they accept the other port.
23:13In terms of the infiltration, that's negotiable, as I understand it.
23:16Right.
23:18Yeah.
23:18I put in a little more.
23:20Yeah.
23:20And if they agree, you see...
23:25Except, this is not a paper from our other October 7th offer.
23:29Oh yeah?
23:30Well, no, except, except for the, except that it is, well, it doesn't, well, we didn't interpret some of the data there.
23:38I don't think it will be last year's withdrawal.
23:40We're not asking them to pull out.
23:43Well, thank you.
23:44Keep that for us to say that they can send in, uh,
23:48But also, Henry, you know what I mean, when you talk about Laos and Cambodia and the rest, I would bother one hell of a lot about that.
23:56I would negotiate that.
23:59What I'm really getting down to is this.
24:01I don't want you to give that at the beginning.
24:05I think it's fine to make all these other things.
24:09And I think you've got to get down to raw bones pretty soon.
24:13But we're willing to do it.
24:15What we're willing to do, as we know, is that they'll give us ceasefire, and they'll give the prisoners.
24:22On the day, I'm sure you wouldn't get it onto them.
24:25And on the day, that's negotiable.
24:28But the point is, and I think if you would start it that way, and I would say on the questions of, like, for example,
24:37I would not start the way you do.
24:39I think the way you start is exactly the right at this earlier time to say, well, you've said this and I'd like for you to explain it.
24:47You've said this and I'd like for you to explain it.
24:48They'll take all three, four hours to explain it.
24:51I go directly to the author and then do that.
24:54And then during the course of the conversation later on say, no,
24:58Let me tell you the reason that I think it's so effective.
25:01When I was speaking at the crew shop, it affected the press conference.
25:04The State Department gave me the goddamn as much crap that they wanted to raise.
25:11You know what I mean?
25:11Eighteen different issues.
25:13Well, we had a long meeting.
25:14I mean, as it turned out, it was a turn who came over to watch, which is me three hours.
25:26And I know the State Department people, the voice holder was there, and Thompson and Preston practically were going up the wall because I didn't raise the issues.
25:32I didn't raise them.
25:34I just went straight into the guts of what we were talking about, the power, you know, the debate, basically, which had started earlier about
25:43and push the other around, you know, the power complex and that.
25:48And at the very end of the conversation, I put all the crap in, so that the record was made.
25:53My point is, you put the crap in first, you'll get diverted around into things that might not come right to the point.
26:00I would put it at the highest level.
26:02I've just come directly from the president.
26:05And I am authorized to make what is an offer which goes far beyond anything we've made before.
26:12It is our last offer.
26:15It is our last offer.
26:16And here it is.
26:18Ding, ding, ding, ding.
26:19Now, for this to succeed, we have to have action on it immediately.
26:23What is your answer?
26:25I think we should do that.
26:26I don't do this for the record, but I do it because I feel it might have some effect on them.
26:31And it'll let them know.
26:32I wouldn't put in the fact that the Soviet have told us that we're willing to talk here.
26:38I would drop that in later.
26:42I'd throw that in.
26:43I think it's a nice little thing to throw in at the end.
26:48Well, during the course of the conversation, you know, sort of slip it in with a stiletto, rather than putting it in at the beginning, that, well, the reason we're here is the Soviet told us, and so forth.
26:57But you judge it on that, that's fine.
26:59But I think that the more blunt, direct, and basically
27:04shocking you can be, the more you might, at least the more you may impress this fellow that this group really is.
27:12You're not here just to talk about peace.
27:14We're both, you know, we'll both leave with smiles on our face and so forth.
27:18I think that's all great for the earlier ones.
27:23is it shows that we were reasonable, we tried our interests, that record's been made, but at this point, we're dealing with the much-gotten-advantages, and we've got to get, and I think the way, the way to do it is to put it right, they don't want to play it, fine, and say, and you don't want to take it, boys, we're, we're leaving, and I, and if you've got any time, and I think if you do that, you'll find out pretty quickly there, you're going to take it or not going to take it.
27:48Absolutely.
27:49So that's what I do.
27:51I think, Mr. President, you're absolutely right.
27:53I wrote it.
27:53I don't know that I'm right, but I'm sure you're right.
27:56I have a feeling that at this stage of negotiations, Henry, not from our standpoint, but from theirs, these bandits, they need some structure.
28:07I looked at it from the point of view of May, perhaps you wanted to surface it, but that's not clear thinking, because if we surface it, you'll make a speech.
28:17And you can make the proposal then any way you want.
28:20I can do it any way I want.
28:20When we service you, you don't have to do it.
28:24At this point, the major thing is to get an impact on that.
28:26I think that might impact on somebody.
28:31They may be right, but they may not be.
28:33I think that they might have to take this on.
28:37No, I didn't tell him what we were going to do.
28:38I asked him what he thought they would settle for.
28:43And he said, well, they'll start out, he said, what we should do rather than make another offer to them is ask them, what are you willing to settle for?
28:53Well, there he's wrong.
28:54And he said, well, they will start by saying prisoners for a deadline.
29:00But a deadline for prisoners isn't good enough.
29:02You'll lose, everyone in Asia will think we're just running.
29:07Therefore, we have to get something else.
29:09And he said, therefore, we have to get a ceasefire.
29:12He thinks we can get it through 72.
29:14He said, they're not children.
29:16And they will give us, and he said, they'll also ceasefire.
29:21And he thinks they would stagger the letters, withdraw throughout 72, that it doesn't have to be early in 72.
29:29I'm just giving you his views.
29:32I'm talking to the political, well,
29:37Our major goal is to get our ground forces the hell out of there long before the elections.
29:47We have to be prepared to bomb the hell out of them in the event that they break.
29:54We can still do that.
29:57They break the ceasefire and the South Vietnamese will bomb them.
30:02That's enough.
30:03Listen, Adrian, listen, those people, the little few goddamn things that'll do with 500,000 people there, or 400,000, or 350,000 the other time, allow some depression, they're going to do with 100,000.
30:14Oh, no, 100,000.
30:15The only problem is to prevent a collapse in 72.
30:19I know a collapse in 72, though.
30:22We had a ceasefire in the American Air Force today.
30:31But don't you think I have no political judgment if there were an agreement this summer that said we'd be out with everything by September 1st next year, that this would kill the issue, no one would talk anymore after there's an agreement that emphases fire at the war stopping.
30:48And what is it?
30:50I tell you, September 1st has the random smack dab of politics.
30:55You can do it August, you know, I'm saying that August 1st is the latest you can do because you've got to get it so it doesn't appear as if you're doing it just as the election campaign begins, we're getting out.
31:11Democratic convention's in July.
31:12That's, that's what you can get.
31:14But my point is that I'll start asking if they agree to all the other propositions that say, now give us the day.
31:20I'll say January 1st, 73, because they'll certainly not accept it.
31:25And we can go back to as far as July 1st, 72.
31:28They'll go on January 1st, 72.
31:30Exactly.
31:30And then for July 1st.
31:31I think that is an amendment.
31:33That's an amendment.
31:35With our Air Force, as I say, we're going to remember, we're going to keep.
31:44I'm gonna draw that airport for spare power and tire and a few other damn places.
31:48Yeah, but the tires won't let us farm from there anymore after this.
31:53Through the ceasefire?
31:55Maybe through the ceasefire, I doubt it.
31:56Well, that's the point, but I... You see, the thing is, these North Vietnamese are mean enough so that if they dare, they might want you, might want to have one hell of a blow-up to ruin the...
32:10What you could do would be to have a deal of everything but our air power.
32:15That's fine.
32:16Maybe that's the way to go.
32:18In other words, all ground forces out by July 1st and all air power out by May 31st.
32:22I think that's a better way to say it.
32:23But I think that, I guess my intuition tells me that if there is any chance, and I don't know if there is, there may be, if there's any chance you're going to get just a straight thing.
32:36And I forget what they said about POWs.
32:38Are you willing to discuss that?
32:40Absolutely.
32:40We'll find that out in answer to the proposition.
32:42That's the main point.
32:43So let Bruce handle that as to what they meant when they talked about POWs and so forth and so on.
32:48What you're getting at here is to get them, if you can, is to get them to consider it.
33:00P.O.W.
33:01ceasefire, withdrawal of agreement, that's all, those three things.
33:05Infiltration, I think you, look, on infiltration, sure, put it down, but as far as international supervision and infiltration, I never going to agree to that, Henry.
33:16Yeah, that's true.
33:17They can agree to it, I don't think it makes sense.
33:21But we have to prep it.
33:22It's something that you can give.
33:24The main thing you can't give on.
33:26You can't give on a ceasefire.
33:27You can't give on a veto.
33:29That goes to the... That's your rock bottom.
33:32And the rest, it ain't nothing you can give again.
33:34But remember that you can't give on the other.
33:37You almost know what your final veto is.
33:39That's your final veto.
33:41You can't give on a ceasefire.
33:43You can't give on a veto.
33:44That we can say about very easily.
33:47What we have to prevent next year, one way or the other, is
33:51If there's a ceasefire, we're going to stop bombing throughout China.
33:53But we want to prevent it.
33:54Of course, we'd like to prevent it.
33:56Infiltration might quite as much affect the interactions of the person that they have.
34:03Well, just enough so that Cambodia and Laos don't collapse on us throughout that period.
34:09I just don't have much confidence in this operation.
34:12I don't either.
34:14It just slows it down a little bit.
34:17So we get through 72.
34:18I'm being perfectly cynical about this, Mr. President.
34:21If we can, in October 72, go around the country saying, we ended the war and the Democrats wanted to turn it over to the communists, then we are in great shape.
34:32I know the Democrats haven't, the Congress haven't, the Senate hasn't.
34:38Frankly, I don't think that's fine with me.
34:42In fact, if it's got to go to the communists, it'd be better to have it happen in the first six months of the new term than have it go on and on and on.
34:52I'm being very cold-blooded about it.
34:54I know exactly what we're up to.
34:59But on the other hand, if Cambodia allows and Vietnam go down the drain in September 1972,
35:06Then they'll say, you went into these, you saved, you spent so many lives just to wind up where you could have been in the first year.
35:13Yeah.
35:13That's... What is the situation in cases asked about Laird's comment and Laird's testimony on the budget to be affected?
35:24All American ground combatants cease to be this summer.
35:27He said he actually made that statement.
35:29Mr. President... You see, I've got to be... You may get this right.
35:33You say that...
35:35Because that's totally different just from what I understand.
35:40No, you can say that Secretary Layard was talking of American maneuver battalions.
35:49And that those would be, that those of course are being sharply reduced and it was a rough estimate.
35:59And when the point is reached where we can announce it, you will make the announcement.
36:05These were guesses as to when certain American maneuver battalions would be reduced to a certain point.
36:11It was another typical layer.
36:13Too complicated.
36:17You do see what it does.
36:19I think, as I said, Bill Rogers was probably protecting his own plane.
36:25He said it to us.
36:26He said it 15 times, and Laird said it.
36:29Or he said it several times, and Laird 15.
36:31But God damn it, just really something that they go in there and say all these things.
36:37And in the faith, I sent a directive to them every three weeks, and it was an absolutely cheap shot in January.
36:43No one was arguing about it.
36:45They should have let you make it then, if anyone was going to make it.
36:51What I would say is that the progress is...
36:55of Vietnamization is on schedule, and when an announcement has to be made, you'll make it.
36:58All the rest is speculation.
36:59Hold on.
37:00I'm just going to make this as one of those conferences.
37:08We saw the news report this morning, but they led to it solved for four minutes on two networks.
37:14I saw that.
37:15And in a very positive way.
37:16I didn't read it.
37:17The main part of the news report is the news.
37:19I did not ever read that anymore.
37:25What do you want me to do?
37:29You can't put human events in there.
37:31Man, what do we do?
37:34Do we public?
37:34What the hell do we do?
37:40What do we do?
37:41See, yes, I noticed Henry had desperately tried to
37:45get the POW issue up, you know, they've got two things, CBS, which has a thing on this, I know there's a man in that network who's a communist, I know there is, who's producing this stuff, he produced the thing here, and it was a great, great job, the POW thing, and they're on those three kicks, hard, tough, so you see, they're desperately trying to be a combat tough, a hell of a time, a hell of a time, hell of a time, well, what do you mean hell of a time,
38:17That's what I mean.
38:18Well, Mr. President, if we get Semyonov over here to sign the headline agreement, it doesn't mean a goddamn thing, it just...
38:25It helps.
38:26It helps if the Berlin thing is going to break in the next two or three weeks.
38:30I think that what we've got to figure, at least, is to get those two without entering the Berlin.
38:35Can we keep Berlin from breaking if they don't agree with something?
38:38Well, I'm going to give him an ultimatum on December the week from Monday.
38:44We can keep it from breaking.
38:46We have to be bastards, but we just have to...
38:50The next time, they're going to meet on June 4th.
38:54And that's mostly technical stuff.
38:58Then Brandt and Raj are going to come over here.
39:03And we see Brandt.
39:11And before Grant gets here, I'm going to tell Dobrynin, that's it now.
39:15We've forced around long enough.
39:17We have.
39:18We have to make our basic decisions.
39:20The only thing is, the only way we'll make it plausible is to say, if you reject it now, that's it for this year.
39:28That's the one step.
39:29It's not a radio, it's a computer, it's not nuclear.
39:31It is nuclear.
39:32Oh.
39:33It is a nuclear-powered submarine.
39:37It doesn't have missiles on it.
39:38It's one of these cheap gangster shots.
39:41At first I thought it wasn't nuclear.
39:45No, that was another conversation.
39:49No, it is nuclear.
39:53That's what I found out yesterday.
39:59No, that's right.
40:00He told me it wasn't.
40:02I told him that although the submarines were not nuclear, our information was wrong.
40:08And I corrected him.
40:09I called him back and said that we had got new photography and it was nuclear.
40:17So?
40:19Well, he says they announced it.
40:22It's at the very edge of the understanding.
40:25It's just at the edge of it.
40:29And they're not in Gianfuegos.
40:31It's a gangster thing to do.
40:35And I think if it comes up in the press conference, as it may, because now the word will get out, I wouldn't get into the question of whether it violated the understanding, but I'd be very tough on what would...
40:45I should say there is an understanding.
40:48We expect it to be quite aware that the Soviet is quite aware of it.
40:53Right.
40:53And I...
40:54I won't comment on every single thing.
40:55I won't comment on it.
40:56The Soviet is quite aware.
40:59Right.
40:59Much better.
41:00Much better.
41:01The Chinese, of course, is now in the position to hit the planet.
41:09Not because of anything we do.
41:11Because of the polls.
41:12I know those bastards.
41:15They are also aware of the fact that the people oppose the previous government.
41:19You'll see people switch it with Sir Joshua.
41:21They follow these polls.
41:23But we're in a pretty good position.
41:24I know we are.
41:25No.
41:26What I'm getting at is this.
41:29Because of the polls, this really does rule out what I really prefer, and that is we'll hard on the truth.
41:37I agree.
41:37I agree.
41:38If we do that, then we not only lose the election, which I don't mind.
41:43No, it's actually a balance.
41:44I have a balance I'm going to get against our friends.
41:47Here, if we lose the election, and...
41:50We go against the majority of the country, which is no reason for us to do it.
41:54If we're going to come out that way, can we?
41:55I agree.
41:56So what we're going to come out with, I guess, is some of it should do with China.
42:01Well, if we finance it enough and if we make it low-key enough.
42:08I think if we stay off the universality formula and just say majority for admission, two-thirds for expulsion, that has the practical consequence of producing two Chinas.
42:20You see, if we say universality...
42:27Well, no.
42:28You see, if you say universality, you're saying Taiwan is a functioning government.
42:33No, it will either then lead to two Chinas.
42:41On the grounds, not that anyone says Taiwan is a government, but simply because there aren't two-thirds votes to kick them out.
42:48Or it will lead more likely to the fact that the communists will not come in.
42:52And that next year or the year after, they will kick Taiwan out.
42:58But it therefore gives us a...
43:00So the more modest we are, the less we claim.
43:04We just say majority for admission, two-thirds for expulsion.
43:11Then there'll be a majority for admission and probably not a two-thirds majority for expulsion.
43:18And that gives us an effect to China, but it doesn't make it a universal principle.
43:25Yeah, but that they might, that the communist Chinese can live with.
43:29What they can't live with is if we say any functioning government should be in.
43:32Because that makes Taiwan an independent government.
43:34I agree with you that the state people want to get out of here.
43:42I'm sure they're all wrong about this.
43:46They won't agree any different on this.
43:50I don't think there's a hell of a lot of political language
43:53and the skeptics come around.
43:56The state doesn't.
43:57Everybody's going to know now.
43:58We've really got to get an issue here.
44:00The doctors doesn't mind.
44:01They're going to get the credit right here.
44:03Oh, no question.
44:04Oh, yes.
44:04I told him on his trip, he had to say, I'm in consultation with the President.
44:11I want to find out what you think.
44:13The best would be, Mr. President, it's not anything...
44:17In fact, the best would be if Martha Greene said it in a testimony before the Foreign Relations Committee, but I'm not going to make...
44:26But this, ideally, would be the best tactical way of playing it.
44:29Just drop it quietly.
44:32Secondly, as far as Peking is concerned, or let George Bush do it, that would be even better.
44:42George Bush would be the best to do it.
44:45The next thing is, it would be best if it happened after we've established contact with the Chinese on the simple ground.
44:54And if we can do that... Of course.
45:02I want some positive news after meeting with you.
45:05But if you think it's out of our position, because if these guys turn us down, we make the peace offer.
45:11And if they don't turn us down and accept it, it doesn't matter what comes out.
45:15If you do turn us down, then let me say that on that, I would strip away all the crap about it.
45:27Oh, yeah.
45:29There's a lot of stuff in there.
45:33But actually, there's a big difference.
45:38We've never set a date before.
45:42We've never set unilateral.
45:55So it is an enormous difference.
46:01But we don't need the eight points for a presidential speech.
46:17I put that on immediate basis.
46:18If you make a public statement, you just say, the immediate release of all prisoner of war, the United States will withdraw all its forces and so forth.
46:26They shall be on that Communist Party.
46:29They shall also agree to a ceasefire throughout all of China.
46:33Supervised.
46:34That's all I have to say.
46:36That's fine.
46:36These are the essential points.
46:38All the rest is belonging.
46:40The rest, if you're negotiating, we have to put in.
46:42All the rest...
46:46But I just sort of put it right on that sort of thing, because that is very hard to argue with.
46:52Very hard for anybody to argue with, to say, well, you've got to have a ceasefire while we're getting out.
46:58Some of them may say, well, we'll have a ceasefire after we get out.
47:01That's all right.
47:03So we'll argue about that.
47:04That isn't a hell of a lot to argue about.
47:07The problem here, though, with the Russians and the Chinese, what really helps us is that they have an enormous problem between each other.
47:17and cut us your balls off.
47:19And here we are.
47:22Well, I think they've never had a stubborn opponent in here.
47:27As you've turned out to be.
47:28And here you've got to give Armin a call or anything.
47:34He had the Russian line.
47:35We'd agreed to quit, to give up ABM before.
47:38We had an offensive limitation.
47:42But it's either awkward language or the communication.
47:47It says together with.
47:48Together with.
47:49It might be people's student effect, though.
47:53We say we shall concentrate this year.
47:56But we shouldn't.
47:56Maybe it'll be intended to a lot in the next sentence.
48:00Together with, we will agree on.
48:02Together with this, we will agree with that.
48:04You see, that's all we can do.
48:06See, look, you're all patient.
48:08But what is happening is, Mr. President, I really think that the communists are beginning to dominate some of our media.
48:16Six weeks ago, because now I saw a New Republic article in which they castigated you for the assault thing because you maintained the relationship between offensive and defensive limitations.
48:33Here the Russians have already agreed to it.
48:36And they are still getting away with it, which is, of course, what the Russians really want.
48:42And that's what, if they babble away enough, of course the Russians will pick it up at the next Helsinki.
48:47And that's why we should get the summit date fixed.
48:49Because then they'll be reluctant to be too... Well, we know some of it.
48:53However, our greatest chances are less.
48:56We do have an inner assault agreement to put on the finish there.
49:02We have to do that.
49:04We're there without doing that.
49:09I mean, they agree to it now because we can't be sure.
49:12But we've got the gamble.
49:14I think we can always sign the accidental war agreement.
49:19We can announce some progress and so on.
49:22If there is a deadlock in Vienna, we can break it at most.
49:28Frankly, partly for domestic reasons and partly...
49:34I frankly feel, Mr. President, at this point, that to keep the Democrats out of office next year is a major national necessity.
49:42That's right.
49:42It would be terrible, you know.
49:44It would be terrible.
49:46And, you know, really, really, with their irresponsibility to display it, that is, I think, to conduct foreign policy.
49:57What about the radicals?
49:59Well, just these two, Sam.
50:00That's where the damn radicals are.
50:02Yeah.
50:07And another argument for the summit is we have a better chance of getting the assault with the summit safe.
50:14I agree.
50:14I agree.
50:15They've got reasons as well as we have to have something come out of the meeting.
50:21Well, we... Sure.
50:22But this is the other side of the coin.
50:23We're not going to have a son that comes out of the meeting.
50:26Out of the question.
50:27That we can't do.
50:28Never.
50:29Never.
50:29Never.
50:30That we cannot do.
50:32I don't think it's all that difficult.
50:34They can get, we can have an EDM agreement, a limitation on offensive weapons.
50:39It's an offensive weapon, so it shouldn't be so.
50:44Even though there are, I agree, media are dominated by the communists.
50:48Well, they, part of the reason here is that they have got, they have desperately, they're paranoid about it, but they've desperately got to discredit in some way what we've done.
50:59Yeah.
51:01They're having one hell of a time, aren't they?
51:03That's right.
51:03Oh, absolutely.
51:04Don't you mind running around?
51:05Oh, with your social set, they must be up the wall.
51:07They are up the wall, and they are becoming...
51:10I can see it.
51:11I recorded you last night.
51:14You're out.
51:15Last night, I had dinner with Joe and Stuart outside.
51:19That's good.
51:19How is your temperature?
51:21Oh, I've got Joe completely... Good.
51:24He's all right.
51:24...turned around.
51:25He's inherently all that.
51:27Yes.
51:28Stuart is all right.
51:28Stuart is all right.
51:29Stuart has done... Stuart has polled every Democratic candidate, seven candidates, on what they would do on Vietnam about air support and military and economic support.
51:42What do they do now?
51:43Almost all of them, except Jackson, now.
51:47He said they're the most cowardly lot he's ever seen, the most disgraceful, despicable bunch.
51:54He's going to write an article, a column about it.
52:01But they are solidly for you.
52:04They know those guys just can't control them, don't they?
52:11Oh, yes.
52:11Let's do it for them.
52:16These people, Margaret Child, for example, is all out.
52:22He thinks we are conducting a great foreign policy here.
52:26I ran into Brinkley the night before that.
52:30But even he and he did a good thing yesterday.
52:32What do you say?
52:37Are you talking about us all?
52:39Yeah.
52:41They all, the point McGregor made, yeah.
52:43I'm surprised.
52:44I'm surprised that you make the statement that there's more going on, that you are in charge of the foreign policy, that you have a concept of what you're building for.
52:55John Sherman Cooper was just, that was the night before, was just warbling around.
53:03And now if Berlin is settled, which I think is practically certain, we'll have Berlin settled by the end of July.
53:11I believe.
53:15And if you could see Rush for a few minutes when he's here.
53:21And thank him for...
53:23His health.
53:24Because he's been magnificent.
53:27He's smart enough to do it.
53:30And he's done it beautifully.
53:31He's a totally loyal man in any position he had.
53:33He's the only guy in the Foreign Service I see now coming up that we can trust.
53:38I think it's a good thing.
53:39I don't know if you're ready to trust him.
53:41He has the brains and the ability that should get him the top assignment.
53:46I've never much learned.
53:48In a new administration, he could be a superb undersecretary or higher.
53:52Look, what you need is trust, trust, trust, trust.
53:59That's it.
54:00That's it.
54:01You need people that are oriented towards you.
54:03There are for us.
54:05That will go out and beat the other people right in the goddamn head.
54:09And that are willing to take the heat.
54:12And don't shove it in here.
54:13I mean, Connolly is the man who does it.
54:18Connolly puts himself out front.
54:20He makes good speeches on morality and that sort of thing.
54:29That's good.
54:30People keep mentioning a possible trip to England.
54:33I don't think that's a good thing to do at this time.
54:35What happened is that I invited him because it's this five-year meeting with the American bar and the British bar.
54:46And I just told him, uh, when I was, I told Berger, Berger is asking me to go.
54:51I said, well, it worked out with the world trip.
54:53I'll go another trip.
54:53I might do it.
54:54I was thinking Moscow might come.
54:57It's all directed.
54:58It's all, it's all scheduled.
55:00Because that's a special trip.
55:00It would be, would create a... Well, at least I'm going.
55:02I mean, actually, I don't have much time.
55:05I don't go to adventure voyages.
55:06There'd be anything here.
55:10Right.
55:10I think it'd be a mistake, no.
55:12And I don't think the British really want it because...
55:15It would look like the special relationship again while they're talking.
55:20I was sorry to see, well, he's having trouble to come back.
55:23Unfortunately, he's got plenty of time.
55:26He's got four more years.
55:27He's got, you know, it's only 20% of the British labor in the market now.
55:33Yeah.
55:34Oh, yeah.
55:35Because that's the only thing that's going to crack these down.
55:40Labor is up.
55:41That's the main thing.
55:42It's like, ours would have been down this mean a lot.
55:45Because we've done very well with a whole 50% of this time period of time.
55:51We've got the...
55:53He's done the right thing, though, doing all his unpopular things in the first year.
55:57That's right.
56:00But if British industry doesn't get a shot in the arm, Henry Ford was in here to see me a few weeks ago, a week or so ago, and he said to me, never buy a British car, no matter how much they cost, because the workmanship is diverse, that the British ports, he said, are 30% less good than the ones they make in Germany and France, even though they are, of course, exactly the same specifications.
56:29It's going to happen.
56:30It is going to happen here.
56:31You don't understand.
56:32Because we're in the same thing.
56:34I know there's two very strange articles about Nader.
56:37There are two of them in here.
56:41In a sense, it's now lashing out attacks on industry, the system, etc., regardless of what they do.
56:49It's really smacks of the McCarthyist mentality.
56:52Yeah, that's all right.
56:53I think it is.
56:54Do you agree?
56:55Oh, and I've met him.
56:57I've met him.
56:57He's a lightweight.
56:58He's a fanatical lightweight.
56:59Yes, he is.
57:00Oh, yeah.
57:00I've never met him.
57:01He's a lightweight, then.
57:03Yes.
57:04But a great politician.
57:05A great demagogue.
57:06You've got to stop him.
57:09You've got to stop him.
57:11And power.
57:22You know, poor Lindsey did exactly the right thing.
57:28He supported legislation to remove the rent soon so that that son of a bitch in the city can finally get his mom to sign.
57:34And Lindsey never got it by saying we must do that.
57:36Remember, you know the problem of housing in Paris, don't you?
57:42That's not the reason you have the problem.
57:44Because of the feelings, of course, of course.
57:46All right.
57:47New York is exactly the same situation.
57:49I mean, that's why the east side, for example, I mean, the west side, the Hudson River, which has some of the best potential in the world, is gone now.
57:58Exactly.
57:58God damn it.
57:59This Lindsey, I think Lindsey is an insane idiot.
58:02Okay.
58:03Lindsey is, Lindsey is the worst kind of politician that I've ever seen.
58:10He's a lightweight.
58:11He has the, he wants to imitate the Kennedys, but he doesn't have that demoniac drive.
58:20And he doesn't have that.
58:24But he, with him it's phony.
58:26It isn't, it isn't.
58:28The Kennedys were tough, basically.
58:30They were driven into a school.
58:33And Lindsey isn't really tough.
58:35Lindsey is healthy.
58:36Lindsey is a terrible, sloppy discontent.
58:39What in the name of God is the matter with the American educational system?
58:50Hundreds of thousands, millions of kids go to colleges, universities, they take political science, political science, they study all the great things.
59:04I don't think that leadership is produced by learning.
59:16It's produced by character, by family.
59:23The British public school system wasn't all that hot, but it put the boys through a tough training of character.
59:30where the personality had to develop, where they put them through Spartan training, they separated them from their family, they had to stand on their own, and that produced self-reliant masses.
59:42That's right.
59:51The only difference is that the Israelis, the Israeli leaders, when they compare frankly the Israelis to the American Jews,
1:00:01who go to Harvard and the rest, by God, I don't think the Israelis would have contempt for these people.
1:00:07But the Americans do.
1:00:08Both are great, but those Israelis are tough bastards.
1:00:12You ever talk to them?
1:00:13Oh, yeah.
1:00:14Oh, I don't even know me, but I've been through those taboos and all those other places.
1:00:20These are different.
1:00:22But the difference between the Soviet system and, say, the British and the good aristocratic system is
1:00:28The Soviet system separates you out, all right, and gives you a good, tough education.
1:00:32But then they create an enormous sense of personal insecurity because you're thrown into that brutal fight where you're always in danger of being knifed in the back.
1:00:42While in Britain, when you were a Churchill, you could have voted to be out of government because you still were highly respected.
1:00:51But you may think that Churchill, after the defeat...
1:00:57I was tossed him out of the government, but then they brought him back ahead of the U.V.
1:01:01Nation's board and all the other jurors used to consult with him more than he did in the United States.
1:01:15I just called you to tell you that I, as one who has to read the New York Package when I know what's going on, that I'm on your side in that rant fight with your mayor, Grayson Anderson.
1:01:26I just said to him, we were going over some things.
1:01:31I told him that.
1:01:34And I said, I knew what happened to France, to Paris.
1:01:38Did you know that, God, the reason that you've got no housing in Paris is you had ceilings too long.
1:01:43Now here in New York, I mean, you've got to, you've got to fight that bullet.
1:01:47This is the total demagoguery that goes the other way, in my opinion.
1:01:53Or don't you, isn't that, what's the matter with this talk?
1:01:56Can't you get a, why don't you get John Loeb and some of the business guys to talk to him?
1:02:06Yeah.
1:02:07Yeah.
1:02:09That's kind.
1:02:11Well.
1:02:15Yeah.
1:02:17Things are coming around, you think?
1:02:26Well, I, can you, but you know, Nelson, you've got to turn it around in the city.
1:02:32Yeah.
1:02:34Yeah.
1:02:34I didn't know the implications of that.
1:02:40Well, it's really what you need is sort of a fellow that he, if he weren't already in the other canon guy like, uh, like Brownell or somebody to go after, but he can't do it because he's, he's your guy.
1:02:57be great, absolutely great.
1:02:59You could, let me say that if you were to put him in a virtue, you could count on him to come up with the right answers.
1:03:07But second, you could also count on him to talk to you before he gave the answers to test you whether you were willing to let him in.
1:03:14He's the only man to do it.
1:03:15As a matter of fact, I couldn't imagine more strongly giving Fred a call and saying, look here, I've got a guy that will work with us later on through this whole thing.
1:03:25All these fellows on that commission, Roy Ashley, were just direct.
1:03:30But this, Cattle was the man.
1:03:31He's really the senior statesman in reorganization of the whole country.
1:03:34No question.
1:03:35Yeah.
1:03:36All right.
1:03:41Let me tell you, you talk to him, only if you feel it's worthwhile.
1:03:46You can say we were chatting and I urged it.
1:03:50Because he ought to do it.
1:03:52He ought to do it.
1:03:53I think that's what's needed.
1:03:55You know, I feel, as you do, I mean, hell, I want Lindsay to succeed.
1:04:00God, we don't want New York City to go down the tube.
1:04:03But the way it's going to go, unless they settle some of these things, you know.
1:04:07All of this, all of these problems are the result of his own, you know, well also pandering the search groups to, you know, to the demagoguery.
1:04:19Yeah, he sure does.
1:04:26He doesn't let me get a cab and all the other shows in Budapest are very effective.
1:04:37The police, the firemen, all that.
1:04:40Killings, right?
1:04:41If we could... Get apart from some other things.
1:04:49I see what you mean.
1:04:50I'll tell you what I'll do.
1:04:51I'm going to see John Irving in a few minutes.
1:04:53I'll raise it with him.
1:04:54I don't know what the problem is.
1:04:56George Schultz is up to his farm this weekend, but I'll get right on it, and I'll have John call you back.
1:05:03Fine.
1:05:03I, uh...
1:05:04Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:05:07Even though, even though we couldn't, of course, we can't give a huge amount, but you know, if we could give you, give him money, it'd be a hell of a gesture.
1:05:13It'd be very effective.
1:05:16Right, right.
1:05:20and that you suggested it and so forth and so on.
1:05:22I suppose the problem is scattered around how much is left and all that sort of thing.
1:05:27But we might find a way to do it directly.
1:05:28Let me see.
1:05:29Let me see.
1:05:30I thought so strongly, as I'm sure you did, when those two policemen were murdered, particularly when you had a black and a white, you know, one black and Italian, actually.
1:05:39That really stirred up people.
1:05:43Yeah, and they're good people.
1:05:44Most police are good people in your city.
1:05:46You know, they aren't.
1:05:46There's no police brutality.
1:05:48Well, very little police brutality in New York City.
1:05:50You know that.
1:05:52That's right.
1:05:53Well, anyway, I'll have John call you.
1:05:56It's good to talk to you.
1:05:59Yeah.
1:06:00I'll talk to him first.
1:06:05I said there isn't.
1:06:06I said there isn't.
1:06:07No, there's not.
1:06:11Oh, he didn't tell us.
1:06:12He already said it.
1:06:14He said there isn't a lot.
1:06:15Well, he's going to get us right through to America.
1:06:18Huh?
1:06:18He's right through to America.
1:06:20Well, he hates Lindsey.
1:06:21He ought to hate Lindsey.
1:06:25He hates Lindsey.
1:06:27Well, anyway, I was just getting back from a university problem, an old education arrest.
1:06:32Karen's a person.
1:06:33I'm a person.
1:06:38I mentioned this once before, but I'm not sure you remember how you were a student before World War I as well.
1:06:45It's ironic that the date is the same date that was our bad date on March 1st.
1:06:54You know, it was the weekend that we had the bad deal.
1:07:00You know, March 1st was the date when 100,000 British were lost.
1:07:06a great German offensive, Lutendorff's crack.
1:07:09It was hailed after three or four days as a great German victory.
1:07:23It was because the Germans did move a pommel out of the British.
1:07:35Afterwards, it was found
1:07:37perspective of history that this was the first battle, the first battle in World War I where the German losses and officers and men were more than very small.
1:07:51It actually was the turning point of the war in 1918.
1:07:55Did you remember that evidence?
1:07:56Absolutely.
1:07:57That March 21st, it was a great term of victory.
1:08:01I didn't know that it was March 21st and it was the end of March 21st.
1:08:05They call it that.
1:08:06He titles the chapter March 21.
1:08:07And that's when it started.
1:08:12And Ludendorff, and it was a mistake on his part, his whole point was, the church's strategy was much more clever.
1:08:21His view was that
1:08:22Ludendorff, with just a little bit of force, he could have knocked the Italians out of the war quickly after Caporetto.
1:08:29Is that his name?
1:08:30Caporetto.
1:08:31Caporetto.
1:08:31He could have knocked them out of the war.
1:08:34It could have a dramatic effect.
1:08:35And, of course, the rest of it.
1:08:38But no, Ludendorff always had his eye on the main force.
1:08:41And, of course, he did it.
1:08:43And, of course, that was the same thing.
1:08:45That was the same thing, which is the British.
1:08:47Robertson.
1:08:48A little bit.
1:08:49Abrams with Chipotle, it's a military obsession.
1:08:52And rather than thinking in terms of what can we do to win the war, they think in terms of what can we do to carry on our fight.
1:09:03And what can we do?
1:09:04Almost no general understands.
1:09:07MacArthur understood it.
1:09:09is that you've got to break the will of the opponent and not necessarily his forces.
1:09:15MacArthur never tackled in World War II.
1:09:17He never tackled the...
1:09:19He always went around them.
1:09:20He did the same thing in Korea.
1:09:22He made a mistake at the Yalu, but even there...
1:09:25I'm not sure that the mistake was the greatest he made.
1:09:28He made a mistake at the Yalu.
1:09:31If MacArthur had his way, the moment that they came across the aisle, he would have bombed across the aisle, and we finished off the Chinese.
1:09:39We would have killed the Chinese.
1:09:42Thank you, sir.
1:09:43Absolutely.
1:09:43I would have said at the time, you would have, but historically, you would have killed the Chinese.
1:09:49Historically, the whole thing was, the whole Hillary, all the Russians, they were in no position to come in.
1:09:55But it was the historical point.
1:09:57Vietnam would never have happened.
1:09:59Yeah.
1:10:00All of Asia would be different today if the Chinese had a different kind of... As it was, the fact that the Chinese have been more peaceful than the Russians in the 50s and 50s is partly due to Korea because they got their brains beaten up.
1:10:16Even with a lousy strategy.
1:10:17Korea was the right... Rather than being the wrong war, the wrong place, the wrong time was.
1:10:24If there is any right to war, it's the right to war.
1:10:28the only time we didn't choose him.
1:10:31He lost his nerve.
1:10:33He lost his nerve.
1:10:34But that's absolutely right.
1:10:37If the Germans had thrown their weight against the Italians in 1917, they could have knocked them out.
1:10:42The historical fact that is more interesting to me, even more interesting, is that what was hailed as a German victory in 21st, so then we got one of the great British generals
1:11:04But that was another mistake.
1:11:07They should have kept going against whichever enemy they had picked to begin with.
1:11:22If they had hit the British again, they might have knocked them out.
1:11:26Well, they had run into Russia, and they moved over there.
1:11:32That's right, they had some invasion.
1:11:34They had 55 buildings against one another.
1:11:37I realize it's an enormous advantage.
1:11:42Well, it shows you that Laos, who knows, it may be historically referred to as another country again.
1:11:54If it worked for American television and for the undoubted public, we took in public opinion.
1:12:03And whatever that may do to us, the strategic impact of laws, I have no question about it.
1:12:09The casualties have not gone up in this whole year.
1:12:13I don't mind how that
1:12:19It wouldn't have happened if you hadn't hit the layout.
1:12:21That's the whole point.
1:12:22And there was no offensive now.
1:12:24And there was no offensive, Mr. President.
1:12:28Do you remember?
1:12:30I know.
1:12:31In our briefings in December, I've seen military briefings.
1:12:37I've seen high points and so forth.
1:12:40Predictions about them off the intelligence in Vietnam is absolutely beyond belief.
1:12:46Absolutely beyond belief.
1:12:47The sons of bitches are like people here.
1:12:49They're only trying to make themselves look good.
1:12:52No, I point you can't believe, Mr. President, that they do in order to cover their tale.
1:12:56But, my man, our intelligence on those have been wrong.
1:13:02That's what I mean.
1:13:03I think any prediction didn't happen.
1:13:04That's what I mean.
1:13:05You can't believe those predictions.
1:13:07But you can't believe... Oh.
1:13:13And it made sense for them to try to knock out Cambodia and to try to score some sort of a victory.
1:13:19And that they haven't been able to do.
1:13:26They took heavy losses in Laos.
1:13:29It is a tragedy that Abrams screwed it up so much.
1:13:32What breaks my heart is
1:13:34that if he, that we were within two weeks of winning the goddamn war, and today, after the agony we took, would it be the same either way?
1:13:44If he, if he had done his job, if he had set up ahead of orders, if he had blocked the roads rather than dashed for Chiffon, if he had stayed within the artillery fan, there are a thousand things, I have a book this thick, going through every cable and every... No.
1:14:05He dashed for Chapon.
1:14:06There was nothing in Chapon.
1:14:10The road junctions were all to the south.
1:14:12It's like the Germans.
1:14:23They just cut it into their heads that they wanted it.
1:14:25You know, there's a
1:14:36I have this little, little bit, if I can't say it in French, although I can read French, I have parts in French.
1:14:42This little three sentence summary of the Great French Battle.
1:14:45You remember we're in French, and after this was, this was later in the spring of that year, very late, probably in the end of the year, during the German, during the German war, they had artillery, you know, and so forth.
1:15:00I mean, that was pretty bad.
1:15:04And then they brought in divisions.
1:15:07This is when a boat took over a tenant who was miserable.
1:15:16He had about 25 French divisions.
1:15:18The Germans moved in.
1:15:20They rescued the general.
1:15:23There were so many ghosts in that war because they slaughtered so many people, 20 million people.
1:15:26It was a much bigger shock because no one expected it and there was no issue.
1:15:29So they came down to this fact because...
1:15:32There's a fascinating story that came out of that.
1:15:38I remember Mangan, the French child, who had been disgraced after Mangan, they had captured, there had been a couple more captures of Mangan.
1:15:51The German, the German, I mean the German side.
1:15:53Which proved, of course, it showed a lot of guts.
1:15:54But he said, there's still two minutes to go.
1:15:56One of the things I don't think of in a movie, one of the things I don't think of,
1:16:02And he says...
1:16:31General Bush conceived it.
1:16:36General Iran made it possible.
1:16:40It should have been.
1:16:42I did it.
1:16:44Isn't that so?
1:16:44Yeah.
1:16:45But it's all in that general.
1:16:46General Bush blocked the clue.
1:16:51I did it.
1:16:52Should have been.
1:16:54That's a great expression to say.
1:16:56It's a great rhetorical line.
1:16:58It's like the way that
1:16:59French is susceptible to that, sir.
1:17:01Much more than English is.
1:17:03Much more than English.
1:17:04It's a very... You get it all done.
1:17:07Dramatic.
1:17:10Like when de Gaulle went tracking anything, he had Percy de Gaulle and said, you know, my ancestors were all French.
1:17:19De Gaulle said, me, I was French.
1:17:22I don't know.
1:17:24She was warbling along to him about how she had to get all my ancestors were fed because they had to get my mother.
1:17:32Let me out of here.
1:17:42Let me go.
1:17:43I was able to have a perception to see through those songs.
1:17:52He texted Kennedy, he treated him...
1:17:53If you wouldn't get that from the press, it would all have happened.
1:17:59He all had no respect for Eisenhower.
1:18:01What did he do that he had great dislike for Eisenhower?
1:18:04Yes, this was due to Al Sharia.
1:18:07Yeah, period.
1:18:07But on the other hand, when it came to Kennedy...
1:18:11They all said that Kennedy scintillated and was brave.
1:18:14It all said he was the greatest statesman of the century.
1:18:17I don't think he ever said that about me.
1:18:19He thought that Kennedy was a schoolboy.
1:18:21He should put on a show for him in Versailles.
1:18:23Nobody will ever forget that.
1:18:25Sure, because he was the President of the United States.
1:18:28You didn't have to think that it was a good show.
1:18:35In that, he had enormous respect for you.
1:18:41Everybody has been, that's been well documented at a time when there was absolutely nothing in it for him.
1:18:48And from 63 on, he said that you were marked for great sex.
1:18:54And, uh, but he despised Kennedy.
1:18:59And Kennedy hated him because the goal was what Kennedy would have liked to have been.
1:19:05But Kennedy doesn't have the character.
1:19:07That's the conclusion, and this is very important.
1:19:12as he was speaking, the German Empire, nothing can save them.
1:19:19There's no policy, no man, nothing can save them.
1:19:22And the great problem the United States has is we rapidly are tearing that plant.
1:19:29We're rapidly tearing the plant.
1:19:30We're tearing it economically.
1:19:32We're tearing it also very much in the geopolitical field.
1:19:39And to do that, I mean, after all, it is a historical accident that you're president.
1:19:48I mean, you're not the type that at this time would normally have become president.
1:19:54And any possible alternatives at this period that the political process would normally have produced would have cut and run out of our commitments in the world.
1:20:06This is a fact.
1:20:09Humphrey would have been a total disaster, but also any other Republican.
1:20:12You know how 80% of the press at the time happened to be in the 1966 elections.
1:20:1780% of these little bastards out here weren't going to get a chance.
1:20:22Nobody thought I had a chance in 1966.
1:20:29As a matter of fact, Eric Severin is a big loser in the 66th election, so the next one's next.
1:20:35His affection for Rockefeller is a close friend of his.
1:20:38He could not have succeeded.
1:20:39He would have fucked out of Vietnam.
1:20:41He would have been hurt.
1:20:42He might have hit them.
1:20:44The one thing he might have done is made an all-out blow.
1:20:49But finally, probably the psychiatrist and happy would have kept him from that, too.
1:20:58Sure.
1:20:58Copy that, Mr. Mayweather.
1:21:00The point is, the Democrats... An open-loaded publican would have done it, Reagan.
1:21:05Would it be... Trouble to Roquemore, and he did it, is that he would have lost, established the chariots, beaten down his door all the time, you know, because he was one of us.
1:21:18He was going to make John Cotton Secretary of State, so, uh... Who?
1:21:22John Cotton.
1:21:24Secretary of State?
1:21:25Yeah.
1:21:28Reagan would have lost Europe.
1:21:31But after all, you've performed this enormous balancing act of having a very strong standing in Europe.
1:21:51which is still the keystone of our foreign policy.
1:21:53There's no visitor that comes, that travels through Europe that doesn't.
1:21:56That seems to be getting across to a number of people, but it certainly doesn't to the average journalist, does it?
1:22:03Because there's no foreign leader who doesn't consider you the most reliable man in the world from their point of view today.
1:22:11Now this, to put this across to the American people is, isn't easy.
1:22:17But Reagan would have been considered a menace by every leader in the world.
1:22:21And justifiable.
1:22:23Because he would have been a menace.
1:22:25Because he is totally simplistic.
1:22:31And he couldn't have learned because he's a congenital lightweight.
1:22:34He doesn't learn.
1:22:35Reagan memorizes that he doesn't learn.
1:22:37He doesn't learn anything.
1:22:39I talked to him in Palm Springs and...
1:22:43really all he's looking for, which is some catchphrase.
1:22:45And then, all right, I've understood that now.
1:22:48So he can go out and say this is the answer.
1:22:51He's looking for simplistic answers.
1:22:54Unfortunately, the new conservatives are that way.
1:22:57They have to take all of them for simplicity.
1:22:59Well, there's an answer here, and the answer is very simple.
1:23:03Why do we have all these complex problems?
1:23:06Boy, now it's what Reagan used to be.
1:23:08Back on the desk and screams and everything else.
1:23:10God damn it, don't talk about it.
1:23:13complex.
1:23:14That's how you cover up all these things.
1:23:15There are simple answers, and we've got to get to the simple answers.
1:23:25The simple answers may solve the short-term question sometimes, but boy, they sure do.
1:23:31President, for us to get the lid solved, China's
1:23:39sum it all into one time frame, and to keep any of these countries, to keep Europe happy, to keep Vietnam from collapsing.
1:23:49That takes great subtlety and intricacy.
1:24:00Get this Berlin thing, as I now consider practically certain.
1:24:04We've got that where we had sawed them off.
1:24:08How about you, bud?
1:24:10I probably ought to get into that action sometime.
1:24:14Well, then, yeah, still, but from this here, you might be able to do something, isn't it?
1:24:17Let's see.
1:24:18Well, I heard our friends in Germany, so if I can get into that somehow, bitch.
1:24:23Well, that's the thing.
1:24:24I think we can leap far with the ego to lead our death story.
1:24:28Yeah.
1:24:30But you see, I talked to Harriman the other day, and all he's got left now is Vietnam, but he's hacking around in Berlin.
1:24:44He says if you could settle Berlin, he figures it's a hopeless town.
1:24:47I said, what a great achievement.
1:24:49He said, but you are so against Brunt that you're not going to be able to do that.
1:24:54So I said, all right, I have no way.
1:24:56I didn't tell him anything.
1:24:58So with that bunch, it will compound their confusion because we are not supposed to be able to settle further.
1:25:04I mean, the difficulty with all these things... How to get it across?
1:25:11The difficulty with all these things, it has great effect on that bunch, and I don't want to vote for it.
1:25:17The thing we have to remember is that we have to, that's why I say we have to down-copy do things to embarrass businesses and solve them.
1:25:27basically for me not to make the announcement.
1:25:31So I think we'll get a little credit for it.
1:25:35And the same with the government.
1:25:36You have to realize that we're in all these areas now.
1:25:39All that matters is the political consequences.
1:25:42The trouble with Berlin is it's technically a four-power thing, so you can't do it alone.
1:25:46We have a congress on it.
1:25:49We have one over there, and we announced it.
1:25:53So it's a big deal about being there.
1:25:59We could have a western summit or something.
1:26:02That could be done.
1:26:05A western summit.
1:26:08If there isn't more power, we can't do it alone.
1:26:48We ought to move now to get Ballou in as undersecretary and give it a deal.
1:26:54Where is he going to fight that?
1:26:56All right, I think you put it coldly.
1:27:01The Senators all want the loot, which is true.
1:27:03The Senators all want the loot, and now the President's given you one.
1:27:05He insists on this one.
1:27:06Just put it that way.
1:27:08The President has given him this one, but he has to insist on this one.
1:27:11Please don't raise it with him.
1:27:13He's taking a lot of heat on the other, which is that we need the loot in there, because the other guy is not going to have any strength on the hills, and the Army's going to have a problem with the other guy.
1:27:33And, uh, oh, may I take your comment to, uh, first of all, I understand that the whole order is on you.
1:27:42But I'll take it, Mr. Barbon.
1:27:45Yes.
1:27:47And I'll report to you.
1:27:50I did not do that.

Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Vietnam War negotiations and Berlin Agreement

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