Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 516 › Conversation 516-003

Nixon, Flanigan & Bull on AMTRAK and Railroad Industry

Thursday, June 10, 1971 · 10:56 AM–11:01 AM ET · Oval Office · 5 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Bull, Stephen B.; Flanigan, Peter M.Conversation516-003 on Tape 516 (tape position 01:36:18–01:41:03)StartThursday, June 10, 1971 at 10:56 AMEndThursday, June 10, 1971 at 11:01 AMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 516-003 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon met with Peter M. Flanigan to prepare for an upcoming meeting with a group of railroad executives. The discussion focused on strategies for addressing industry concerns regarding AMTRAK financing, labor costs, and union productivity constraints. Nixon and Flanigan also evaluated the competitive landscape of the travel industry, comparing the quality and service models of railroads and airlines. Flanigan advised the President to remain non-committal on specific legislative financing proposals to avoid complications with upcoming labor negotiations.

  • AMTRAK
  • Railroad Industry
  • Labor Unions
  • Transportation Regulation
  • Corporate Competition

Audio

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript is incomplete. The transcription skipped stretches of speech — roughly 1 minute of this recording (about 11% of it) is represented by only a few words. Listen to the audio rather than relying on the text below; a corrected transcript is queued.

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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President, that railroad route is in the cabin from Peter Platt.
He'd like to see you.
All right.
I'll get him right in.
I've made you one, President.
This is a unique group of railroad presidents.
Nine out of ten of them make money.
I see the side of the page in here.
Where's Mike?
The guy that asked us to call him over?
Ben Biagio.
He's the son of your son?
Yes, sir.
And he's the best of the lot.
He'll be, sir.
He's the only one involved in this sort of man-event meeting.
All right.
The only loser here is Bill Moore, who was taken over in the Penn Central.
And, of course, he's got to be serious.
Who's that, sir?
Somebody at the Penn Central.
What's he there?
I don't know.
I don't know.
Were you with him?
No, sir.
I wasn't.
I have no idea.
just to thank those fellows for working so hard, I suppose.
No, no, why do you send a land tractor?
Oh, John Volpe.
John Volpe snuck it through and got it up in the hill.
Yes, sir.
I think you've got a heck of a problem with that.
We're going to put money into that.
You've got a nice man in charge, Roger Rood.
Yes.
I like him.
We've got a good board, but if they can turn passenger railroad service into a money-making business, they're going to be geniuses.
The only way they're going to do it is to take the unions and have them have a different attitude toward the folks.
The trouble is, in railroad speed, it's like airline.
You notice, you notice how you were riding that line on Eastern.
I'd change the line, the line, I'd go to Florida.
I quit riding Eastern, not because Eastern was the safest and the best, the rest, but their service was a lot of ugly services and poor food and so on.
So I rode National.
I hated the National.
I loved Eastern, but they were nicer.
Here.
Northeast is the worst line.
But Delta is trying to take over Northeast.
And Delta has the best service.
That's great.
And they'll make the end of this whole deal.
Take speed ships, everything else.
The competition in the future is going to be more on the quality, isn't it?
Isn't it going to be on that?
Rather than on cost, speed, and the rest.
Maybe the train is nice.
No, I don't think that train...
Going to New York, that mass train, is all that good.
I rode it up to Philadelphia.
I thought it was fast enough, but I didn't see much grease in it.
No.
What did you think?
Well, I don't even think it's fast enough.
I think if you're going to go to New York to spend three and a half hours on a train and you can get there in an hour, I don't think people are going to run.
What do you want to talk about here?
Well, first, they're going to want to talk about their problems.
And the first thing they're going to talk about is financing.
We have a bill, and they have a bill.
And they're going to push.
I think you should just say, we're certainly working on this, gentlemen, and we'll do whatever we think is right.
Well, he's not publicly committed, and I think that you could say we're working on it.
I don't think John tends to get us into these things a little ahead of time.
You might want to point out that we have a little trouble getting these financing bills through the Congress.
The second thing they're going to talk to you about is labor.
Now, these fellows, of course, don't have any passenger business to speak of anymore, so what they're talking about is just labor costs and productivity.
Their real concern is that the labor unions won't allow them to get productive.
They insist on full crews when you don't need it.
You're going to have to meet with the labor fellows, as you know, from the railroad on Monday.
To the extent that you get too far out on a limb, they may come back at you on Monday.
So I think it's appropriate to indicate your concern, but I wouldn't get too far out because it'll get faster.
Biagini is the fellow you should talk to on the financing.
He'll turn it over to a fellow called Graham Claytor.
of the Southern Railroad who's good on the labor problem.
And then I think it would be appropriate if you said, look, I'm concerned about too much regulation, as you know.
And I've had a group here in the White House working with transportation to cut down regulation.
I know they've been talking to you.
What do you think of our approach?
I sure do.
Yes.
Well, it's Henry Dutacker.
And I can give him a short statement of what we're thinking about if you'd like.
He'll actually be on your left.
John will be on your right.

NARA Description

On June 10, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Stephen B. Bull, and Peter M. Flanigan met in the Oval Office of the White House from 10:56 am to 11:01 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 516-003 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 516-3

Date: June 10, 1971
Time: 10:56 am - 11:01 am
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Stephen B. Bull

     President’s schedule
          -Meeting with railroad executives

Peter M. Flanigan entered at 10:56 am

Bull left at 10:58 am

     Railroads
           -Railroad executives
                 -Competence
                       -Benjamin F. Biaggini
                       -William H. Moore
           -National Railroad Passenger Corporation/American Track [AMTRAK]
                 -Representation
                 -John A. Volpe
           -AMTRAK legislation
           -Roger Lewis
          -Obstacles
                 -Unions
                 -Service
                 -Stewardesses
          -Airlines
                 -North-East Orient
                 -Delta
          -Future competition
                 -Service
          -Washington, DC-New York train
                 -Competition with airlines
          -Financing
                 -Administration versus railroad bills
                 -Response by President
                 -Volpe response
                 -Congressional problem
          -Labor
                 -Costs and productivity
                 -Unions
                 -Upcoming labor meeting
          -Finance
                 -Biaggini role
          -Labor
                 -Graham Claytor role
          -Regulation
                 -President’s efforts
                 -Hendrik S. Houthakker
          -Seating

The President and Flanigan left at 11:01 am

Also recorded on June 10, 1971

  • 257-001 9:10 AM · 1 hr 32 min — President Richard M. Nixon met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 9:10 am and 7:35 pm.
  • 516-002 9:11 AM · 1 hr 33 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Rose Mary Woods, Alexander P. Butterfield, Stephen B. Bull, Jacob D. Beam, Helmut ("Hal") Sonnenfeldt, and Oliver F. ("Ollie") Atkins met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:11 am to 10:56 am.
  • 060-003 11:01 AM · 1 hr 20 min — President Richard M. Nixon and railroad executives, including Benjamin F. Biaggini, Tom Rice, Jack Fishwick, Graham Claytor, William H. Moore, Hays Watkins, William Johnson, Frank Barnette, Louis Menk, John Reed, Stephen Ailes, John A. Volpe, Egil ("Bud") Krogh, Jr., Charles Clapp, George Crawford, and Peter M. Flanigan, met in the Cabinet Room of the White House at an unknown time between 11:01 am and 11:59 pm.
  • 516-013 11:01 AM · 27 sec — unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 11:01 am and 12:21 pm.
  • 060-004 12:21 PM · 7 min — a White House tour group met in the Cabinet Room of the White House at an unknown time between 12:21 pm and 11:59 pm.
  • 516-004 12:21 PM · 51 sec — President Richard M. Nixon, Alexander P. Butterfield, and Peter M. Flanigan met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:21 pm to 12:23 pm.
  • 516-005 12:26 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Horace Hampton, Egil ("Bud") Krogh, Jr., and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:26 pm to 12:29 pm.
  • 516-006 12:29 PM · 27 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Alexander P. Butterfield, Stephen B. Bull, Everett D. Collier, Philip G. Warner, Herbert G. Klein, White House photographer, and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:29 pm to 12:56 pm.

All 24 conversations from June 10, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 516-003, June 10, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/516-003 (accessed October 12, 2026).