Conversation 516-009

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I suppose I'd like to see you also, Coleraine.

Oh, yes.

Say, there's 62 of them in the chair.

62?

Without arms, four of them?

What's up?

One quick question on the .

How many?

30, 35.

I wonder if there are a few more.

I thought that might be a specific group.

Well, they're gone.

They're just gone.

Is that good?

That's Wayne Rosemarie.

I notice that this is 35.

Is the high field number going to happen?

See, I'm not putting all of those in the state.

I might put them next year in there.

But the high field number is going to have 60.

You know, with the big chairs, you can do 60.

That's what I'm saying.

Well, I wonder, that's the ideal number for the size of the room, but is it the ideal number for the purpose of... Well, I'm not, I'm trying to think it could be for this region, but I think it's also good for another region.

You can handle that well for, that's that many, pretty well.

I mean, I think they deal with certain things.

I think it's, oh.

If we get equally good people, we would be equally strong.

No, no, don't bring in somebody else or Phillips.

But what I was thinking of, maybe, so it isn't totally business, how about maybe a few, maybe publishers or

you know, basically businessmen, you see, they would have been a publisher or a media man.

That's right.

People that just basically what I had is movers and shakers.

Okay.

Is there any problem with that in there?

The list is made for a purpose and these people are committed and the idea is that I would have nobody else who wasn't for me.

Talk to these people in pretty blunt terms about how you are

The additional people we're going to call on you when times are tough to get out and undo the problems.

And you'd want these additional people to sit in on the briefing, too.

You wouldn't want to split that up, would you?

No.

And Pete, see, I've individually contacted each of these people on that basis.

I'll see if you can take on the assignment, Pete, to see if there's others that y'all can.

That's all right.

I'm thinking we're terrible at that.

They have to be, I agree, that's an elite group, so it's got to be basically an elite kind.

You can't put an elite group on an elite side.

So that's the problem with St. Anthony.

So, but you may be, you've got some elites in very tightly related fields.

Maybe, Kelly, you want to find one of these first?

Yeah.

I'm saying you're going to see Secretary Rogers at 5 to report on the trip, or at least they've worked it out.

Yeah, I guess so.

And we were wondering if it might not be a good idea if you took Rogers or somebody, and did go on the boat for dinner, so that, see the stories have said you, first South Star said you're going to be at that bachelor dinner.

And free it out of the household.

Don't you think it would be good if you were, if you were with Rogers getting reported on the strip or something?

Or you might have a better idea if you're like somebody else.

I'm on the boat with somebody.

I'll find somebody I don't want to.

But you don't want to?

I'm telling you, going on the boat probably isn't fun.

It's 3 o'clock because 6.15 or a good boy has arrived.

He's probably arriving.

There'll be plenty of time to get away.

As a matter of fact, I've been taking the boat anyway.

I know you have.

So there wouldn't be any problems.

They did message to me to check on what he, you know, he might not have it be with brothers and the reason was he was going to get his report for the trip.

I'm gonna kill you properly this time, people.

Get the hell out of the house.

I don't know if she gets out.

I wanted to be as well to, I want to be out of this.

I have to be out of here tonight.

I think I've got to take the Sequoia.

Well, I can't.

I have to even just to see there's two parties.

Yeah.

And I must have an excuse for not going either.

Well, I can't do this one, actually, and I can't do that one.

They don't know that I think I should have an account of what I'm doing.

Now, we've got this for you, so I think probably I'll take them at 6 o'clock.

I was wondering maybe if we could put rockers in at 5 o'clock.

That would be Simpson.

I'm going to take him tonight.

I don't want to see how there's another guy.

Yeah, true.

I just don't want to.

I need a little more.

He's not here, so he has no question.

I wouldn't do it.

We might put... We might take on Pete Peterson and two or three people.

Is that a bad idea?

The better thing would be to have Connelly, have Rogers come in and maybe have Connelly.

He's free.

If you could get Connelly in, virtually, you know, he'd be free.

I think he's a good guy, isn't he?

No.

Not that I know of.

Connelly?

I have somebody with Rogers, but I don't want to be out there, just the two of us, you know what I mean?

I mean, that's what you're saying.

Yeah, I have trouble with it.

It's drug business, and they have an argument about the committees, and John's under such pressure from the Jews and the Christian communities, and I don't know.

I don't think it's got a problem there.

It's all me.

Could you make a colleague or something like that?

Then you keep the conversation.

You can say they're discussing anything, and they can guess what's up.

Yeah, well, that's what's typical of being good at this kind of stuff.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's fine.

What do you try to do about it?

Well, what is your general gains up to these days?

Well, we've got quite a few gains I've heard at the moment.

I was going to suggest you might want to send a letter of condolence to Julian Goodman's widow.

Did she die?

I expect he died, yes.

I thought she died.

She did.

So sure, we'd lose him after he left you.

Did you talk to Herb afterwards?

Herb told me that he hung around for an hour and repeatedly asked Herb.

He kept saying to Herb, I must have made a mistake.

I never should have brought that subject up.

I brought it up.

I know you did, but he...

He kept whining himself afterwards.

He was badly shaken up.

It'll have a good effect.

I'm going to see Paley, who's been asking to see me, and let him...

I set a date for tomorrow, but I have to cancel it.

Let him ask me for some help and give me a wonderful opportunity to simply point out some of the problems we've had

Let him ask for help and find out what he wants to do to help us.

I think it's very good timing for it.

Especially if those fellows talk as they do amongst themselves.

They compare notes and I'm certain that that word gets around within those networks.

It gets down to Goodman's assistant who lets someone else in the street know, who lets

It may be very good timing to try to get a little from him.

Well, sure, they all love to go up and blab around about it.

They suck.

They can't help it.

You're stuck with something so loud.

Never got it.

I think they're... Well, I heard Carson C. He didn't understand.

I don't think he got the full import.

I started pointing out to him.

pointing out to him what it meant.

No, I don't think he understood fully what you were doing.

When I started explaining it to him, he just laughed a little nervous.

I don't think he caught the full weight of what you did to him.

Well, it would be a very hard shot for anybody who's a press, who's from the press.

They're proud.

They always like to think of their honesty and so forth.

It's hard for him.

He's one of the most devoted people.

It's hard for Scali.

Terribly hard.

He's coming around.

He's most recently, particularly keeping with him so recently, and Scali was an honest, good person.

He really was.

I know that.

He's just like some of the people like Frank Carmichael.

He's honest.

I consider him honest and honest, you know.

Lewin is pretty good.

I mean, they basically are wire service.

Richard, they don't crap on you.

Richard is good.

He's all right.

And Bill Cordell, they're basically liberal, but they're honest.

That doesn't bother me.

But that brief is fast-paced.

And the network is virtually non-existent.

That's the point that these guys got to realize.

And they're not realizing.

And they're catching up.

Well, I'll tell you.

Oh, yeah.

They worry about their credibility and they worry about their dollars and cents.

That's where they're vulnerable.

We have Jack Kemp, Mr. President, who's agreed today to run a one-man troop squad on McCloskey.

I think he'll be very, very effective.

He's a very attractive, articulate congressman.

We talked about it on the campus show with McCloskey a week ago or ten days ago.

And he did a

bang up jabs and we had Jack in this morning and he's we're going to start programming him to where McCloskey goes into an area and begins to it looks like he'll get into media coverage and send Jack in he's got the Bob Dole instincts he's good on the attack but he's very smooth about it and he's eager for this he wants to go to Vietnam he wants to get a good exposure to what's happening so that he can come back and

kind of tag McCloskey around the country and keep him on the defensive or keep battling with him.

I think Jack will be great at that.

Great.

We also have Hubert Humphrey fighting with Teddy right now.

I don't know whether you noticed that in your news summary.

I heard about it.

Tell me what it's all about.

Well, yesterday when I saw Kennedy's statement, I called Bob Dole a preposterous statement.

Utterly preposterous.

What was it on Vietnam?

Well, what he said, what Kennedy said in the speech was that he... On the Senate floor?

No, sir.

He said he was away somewhere talking, but he...

The speech was that you were deliberately prolonging the Vietnam War in order to end it next year and thereby get the credit for ending it in an election year.

Oh, sure.

I was about to agree with this.

And also... Well, he's getting...

Terrible.

So I called Bob Dill, and Dill went right out to the floor and took him on, which was good for Bob.

But the fellow who jumped into the debate and made the news was Humphrey.

He stepped right up, and he said, as the titular leader of the Democratic Party, I feel compelled to point out that the president of the United States wants to end this war as much as any man in this chamber.

And it really took Kennedy, gave him a real tongue-in-cheek.

You know, you've got to add to Humphrey there, his political position was good.

His political instinct being that he's looking for the center.

And Kennedy had overreached.

Kennedy had reached.

Why didn't he tell us in the press?

The editorials ought to crack him.

What we're doing...

Even the New York Times ought to say something.

That's an officious statement.

What we're doing is taking it and... Sir, you ought to get a mass of letters to some of our letter hunters.

Yes, sir.

We're mailing the Kennedy speech out and the Humphrey speech because it'll inspire...

I'm sure a hell of a lot of that, Jordan.

And we've started some letters going to editors saying the unbelievable thing they've read.

I think Kennedy is reaching so hard for the left that he's lost his sense of balance.

He gave another May Day speech, another one yesterday, long.

And he's just posturing himself way out on these issues.

Is he being told to do this by somebody in the staff?

Is he that, he's not, is he that, he is that impulsive as he, Teddy is not, and he doesn't believe in it, correct?

He's probably got a hell of a lefty in this town.

He's got several, but.

What is this, that's a stupid thing, though.

It is, it isn't smart politics.

What he's doing is, in my opinion, what he's doing is trying to, I think he's trying to keep the affection of the left

Yeah, Matt does that.

Because he desperately wants to keep that convention deadlocked next year.

And he's concerned that if he doesn't hold on to that side, he's liable not to have a big enough base to keep a deadlock alive.

Of course, Humphrey has, by moving as openly as he has, has cut off Muskie's money.

Muskie's out of money.

Jay Lovestone told me three weeks ago that Muskie's out of money.

I started to write you a memorandum this morning to suggest it.

It might be good.

Well, you know, he's...

He'll give me a raise, no question.

Yeah, but he'll be tremendous.

He'd be tremendously impressed.

He'll be happy next week.

What I would say is no politics or politics.

I just appreciate it.

Hello.

Mr.

Senator Humphrey, please.

You can go.

I started to send you a note this morning, and then I thought, well, you know, it cuts both ways.

I don't care.

I'm on the internet.

They do something bad, we kick them in the ass.

Well, he would be tremendously impressed by the call.

And that helps, because he does...

The harder it is, you've got to know it.

But, you know, the Kennedys, we have got to... We've got to condition the country...

for the fact that if the Kennedy, if the Democrats do nominate him, they've got to have that great announcement to some of the village.

Because, frankly, let's face it, Chuck, of all the candidates, he's the man you'd be most afraid of in this chair.

Oh, I'd be terrified.

Because, I wouldn't you, I really, I don't, I think you'd be the easiest person to meet.

Hello?

Well, I wanted to call you on a completely impersonal basis and tell you that I hope you didn't get into too much trouble by rising to my defense on the Senate floor.

I'm most grateful.

I just want you to know, Hubert, that as you can imagine, whether it's arms control or

China and also in this area there are things going on that may not be the eye and that isn't promising but certainly whether they work out or not the point that we all agree on is that when

You were in office, and the same was true of Lyndon Johnson.

Nobody wanted to keep the dance floor going.

Everybody was for peace.

And now we may disagree as to how and when and all that, but I did appreciate it very much.

I just want to say, if you've got a little plaque from your party, just know there was one party down at the White House that was appreciated.

We hope to make some diminishing progress.

I can assure you that as it comes, we're going to be in close touch with all sides because there's no political mileage in anybody keeping this going and all that.

That's right.

It's a good subject.

It's good to talk about something else.

That's right.

Well, I'm most grateful.

How are things going?

You keeping busy, I see.

Yeah?

You make speeches all the time.

I think, as a matter of fact, that if I look around, I'd say, how do we do, but

Without, you shouldn't, without getting involved in a huge organization, you seem to be keeping a lot of people wondering.

I noticed the last poll was rather very interesting.

You had that darn thing and all three of you were about even.

Isn't that true?

That's right.

Okay.

Bye-bye.

Mitchell has a dinner for McCullough and Oreske that dinner tonight.

It's not good.

I'm not saying.

You could order if you wanted to go.

I don't think you should.

Conley Rogers.

Thank you.

I don't think Peterson's quite this.

He ought to have Schultz.

I don't want to throw that into the game.

Because they are just what they're called now.

Hubert, you know, is one part of this appreciation of decencies.

He really does.

Well, he's not only that, but he worships this office.

I think that call

I told him the question again.

Well, how did he react?

Oh, he said, I said, I delighted him.

He said, I didn't bother him a bit.

He said, you would have done this.

I did exactly what I know you would have done if you'd been here.

He said, I'm a, he said, you're a thousand.

I didn't ever, any of us in this world are on the keep of the pillar of the key card.

I know everybody from the past.

I thought it was the same.

It's interesting.

Huber took him on.

Huber just may have thought a little politically, too.

He just may have thought Kennedy had overreached.

Oh, I think he does.

And he must have feared Kennedy.

Sure he does.

His reaction, he saw this as an opportunity to support the presidency when obviously Kennedy had been very irresponsible to the Senate.

But I wonder why it's challenging for him.

Why does the press tend to get away with this kind of crap so much?

I didn't see much news on it.

It was on the One Network head of last night.

I see.

It was on the morning news this morning I saw it.

I see.

And I think you'll see some editorial follow-up.

I think he's...

The difficulty, of course, is that he appeals to those people who want to get out of it.

They say, well, the press is trying to...

A lot of people would have believed such a silly thing.

They didn't think about it.

He wants to keep the war going so he can end it next year, but he cries out for Christ.

That's pretty far fetched.

The Clifford thing, yesterday people might believe, although we put that down very effectively.

The thing about continuing a war now, I don't think anybody thinks that.

Your worst partisan enemies would maybe like to think that, but

I got people to know better.

We had George Bush take him on last night.

George Bush was speaking in Massachusetts.

Was he?

How did he take him on?

He just attacked it as being a grossly irresponsible, wild, irresponsible attack.

I haven't seen anything come over the bush yet, but I suspect it would create a little ripple up in Massachusetts.

It should be national.

But we'll get it made national.

You've got to make, Chuck, you've got to make Kennedy's vulnerability like the Chappaquiddick thing and so forth.

We've got to keep, they've got to know.

Some of our radio fellows, Mr. President came up with an idea this morning that I'm going to pursue, which is

It's an amazing thing that no one has written a book on Chappaquiddick.

That's it, nobody's written a book.

And that's what we're going to do.

I would think so.

I can't have come to think of it.

I don't know why I never thought of it before, but it's the kind of thing you would expect.

Someone would have done that.

But it's one, if we could get it, say, to come out January 30th.

Yeah, get a book and buy a lot of them.

Maybe it would be a better campaign expense to buy a lot of them.

You could buy four or five of them in the paperbacks.

Sure.

With the picture of Charlie Quidditch and the girdles.

Well, the real story, what really happened to Charlie Quidditch.

Charlie Quidditch or something like that.

Now, that's a must.

That must be done.

And then you get the paperbacks scattered around.

Well, we'll get it done.

The only thing I want to take a little time is to find a very credible author.

There are guys, in other words, maybe the British authors.

I think they all deliver to cover it up.

There's something about Kennedy.

His mistakes don't ever get the same coverage as other candidates.

I mean, if a person puts his foot in it, it's front page.

Kennedy's got a sympathy for his body.

I think that's exactly what it is.

But I'm not sure that the...

He's a man who might be president.

You've got to get that story out.

Well, you know, we sit here and we wonder if it gets out.

And yet I...

Because we don't see it that much, and yet...

I've got to do a poll, right?

We're telling them to put it in the next poll.

You mean the... Do you have to put it... Quite right.

How many do you remember?

I'd like to be surprised.

It'd be at least two-thirds of the country.

I think so.

That's a very good thought.

You can insert a memorandum in a column.

Okay.

you should get back to the recognition.

The candidates, they're just very deep thinking about these things.

I know that's not the staff, but probably a fellow.

He probably had too much staff.

Oh, yeah, but he's making plenty of mistakes.

Yes, sir.

Bad mistakes.

The significant thing is that it's where the money has dried up.

The money has dried up.

He's played to the left very hard to get that kind of money, and that's stopping now.

uh and the humphrey people humphrey had that fundraiser here it wasn't a fundraiser it was a cocktail party for his former money people and they all stopped giving the muskies so he's he's really not getting it on either side uh jay lovestone called me a month ago and he said that his money has stopped just completely and he said you'll see very soon he'll have to lay people off and cut back he said mean he's

cutting the word around to people not to contribute.

And he said, I think he's going to lose the New Left money.

That's exactly what's happening.

Why are we losing the Left?

Because they're... Well, that's what...

I think they think there's going to be a fourth party now.

And money is...

It's causing people to hesitate.

Thank you, sir.

All right.

What makes that, uh, the, uh, why the call didn't you should have called now?

Because he was, didn't want to, uh, have a little tongue strain.

Uh, and is he, oh, oh sure, because he realized that you would, you would have really gotten to him, and, uh, he kept wondering if he'd said something that set you off.

It was good.