Conversation 526-002

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I studied it very carefully.

I don't think that's right.

It's perfectly bland.

I mean, you either or not think you can.

It's right.

You have to get it or not get it.

You read the news.

Sorry, they say, as we would expect.

I mean, this is just sort of hits the edge as well.

Because of this media thing, I've got an Iranian crisis group.

The right of the president to, the right of, first, they've got to have private negotiations, so they must be confidential.

Second, the president has got to have, you see, it's my idea to put down three points that you're trying to make.

I'm going to be at the top of everything you ever send in here, and these are the three points we are trying to make.

One, do they all make sense?

Right, one, there can be disagreements as to whether it should be, then how do you declassify it?

Dr. Jimmy Glass-Spiker, on her authorized disclosure, has given it the law of the land, and that only those who have all the balance should do that, and the pressure should be responsible for that.

For Christ's sake.

That's all very wrong, is it?

Well, listen, because you're not the only one.

It's really, it's a portion of that on this.

It's a preparation for Senate, the Senate's all over the place.

You know, here's how jerky the schools of this country are.

He's kidding.

He's an old man.

He's the president.

He's a poet.

Yeah, but having sat on the Board of Regents, let me tell you, it was a hell of a problem.

Yeah.

Just getting anybody to go, to come to a commissary and get on our increase.

And they've gotten to this goddamn mass production thing now, where

Now those goddamn black, I'll bet you that kings of the black era, presidents or whatever they are of the black African nations, any one of them could pick up all the honorary degrees they are to pick up any honorary degrees.

It's not actually about the policy, it's not to make them.

They're part of the agreement.

You get crazy presidents if you do this.

Well, I'm not getting crazy.

I used to sit at regents meetings.

All regents have to vote for honorary degrees.

I voted no on all of them.

Always.

And I dropped any of them.

I come to this thinking in terms of let's get some cool analysis as to where we are, whether a presidential statement ought to be made of this.

I mean, you're going to issue a statement that ought to be a hell of a statement.

I mean, if you're going to issue a statement instead of reading one, I mean, this is...

The other thing is that if it's not for all that line to say this is no skin off our back, I mean, I don't know if they're... Don't they want anything?

Yes.

Go ahead.

Either the policies or events are imputable to this administration.

Well, that's pretty great.

Let me ask a little.

You had me this morning first.

What did they decide?

Henry leading against Evan Johnson.

He's very sensitive about this.

I think it's a bombing all the rest of them.

By golly, if they didn't have a study meeting, we're going to have one meeting at the bombing hall.

We have.

Well, Houston Senate.

We've got it.

Thomas, leave me with this.

What about Johnson?

Yes or no?

Henry is opposed to Johnson.

Everybody else, I believe, is for it.

Henry didn't want to discuss it in the meeting.

He wanted to see me afterwards talk about it.

So we did not discuss it in the meeting, except everybody looked startled when they thought it was possible he would do it, and then he thought he would maybe shouldn't.

He thinks it will backfire on us, and why?

And I don't know why.

Now, the argument here is that we've got two edges on this, and it's a

Clearly we can't fight either, and then we've got to decide that we're going to fight one or the other, or we've got to try and fight both, which maybe is possible.

One is, one thing we've got to fight is this isn't our stuff, this is someone else's.

Someone else's dirty linen, what?

The argument that's raised in there is that we're both of those because we're trying to maintain the position of fighting both of them.

We're trying to say the law's been violated, but we're not saying it very clearly.

Nobody, and it's absolutely true, you start analyzing the news and look at the stuff.

Now, Timmons says I'm wrong, but he hasn't proven it to me yet.

Nobody

against the New York Times.

There are a couple obscure publishers, Jim Copley and, you know, a couple people here and there are with us, but the rest of the publishers are against us.

Even people like that great leader, Carl Curtis, is against us.

Because he feels it's, you know, freedom of the press or some sort of thing.

Now, I understand the board has done some good stuff.

Obviously, Max Taylor has been superb.

And he's the one guy that's been on TV, and thank God for Max Taylor, we ought to promote him to five stars.

To retire on.

The other one, I understand, is Gail McGee, who is out really swinging for us this morning.

On TV, on the CBS News.

Blasting the New York Times.

Now, I made the point to Tim, and I think this is the key in the Congress.

This is another disc case.

It may be, and probably is bigger than the Hiss case in terms of its reverberations because it gets more to the core of somebody who's going to swill by it.

Everybody was against me on this.

At least we got a few that were for us on this.

That was your advantage on this, was that everybody was against you.

If you had been before you, you wouldn't have gotten all the time from Carl.

One ran away from everybody else, but I fought alone.

There's a chance.

Some guy up there could grab this thing and go at it, or a group of them, and can rocket themselves up if they've got the guts to do it.

But that's one point.

The other side of it is that it may be that we should decide which of these battles we want to fight and fight it all out without worrying too much about what happens on the other one.

Keeping up a thing.

In other words, by trying to fight them both equally, we may be losing them both.

And if we're going to separate, for the long haul, the one to separate probably is not worry about whether it rubs off on us.

Because it does.

And fight the one of

not a fight in the New York Times.

Well, we can always make the point that this problem will not just be made in God's way.

Now, Henry makes a beautiful and in-passion statement on this thing.

Didn't he today?

Because he's mad at it, personally mad about it.

Not at all sure that maybe the way to get our cutting edge on this, Ron suggested this, so you know.

He said, putting Henry on Air Force One to New York, to Rochester,

may be the bomb we need.

Put him on the record with the press pool and let him blow.

What does he say?

He goes into the same things he's done in here, the case on you can't allow this kind of stuff to be done, that he makes that point, look, if a liberal had done this, if McCarthy had done this, think of what the liberals would have done.

They seem to think that this, that's why this probably gets as watered down as it does, is that they think you can say this.

This is a watered down as it is because it does not have any language that sings.

The other point is whether I can get it.

That's a real question.

I hope that should be raised.

The point being, what is a good one?

It appears that I'm saying this is an attack on us, basically, if I get it.

Even though I'll say that it's not.

The second question is,

whether I can get in it because of the fact that it is in the courts at the present time.

That's the other part of the story.

No matter what I say, the point will be that I got into it while it was in the courts.

Now, there's also a lot of the questions I made.

It may be that I ought to let it run a while, and then take a national television, go on for a national television, and just knock a little bit of Jesus out of it, rather than fart around before it grew good.

Basically, if Ted is to get a nurse, most of them afterwards will be asking for the President to convince them.

I don't know whether anybody thought of raising that point, but I'm sure they did.

You see my point?

They did.

It's not probably a very good forum for me to take on, at least for the President.

I think, well, this is, her point makes a very strong point, looking at this.

She says, I have a serious doubt about the remarks I've heard the President propose to make right now in Times Square.

no question but that on this issue the press feels against us.

I feel we have to do a basic job of selling the idea that we're not talking about freedom of the press, we are talking about violation of the law.

I'm sure that during the questions of the domestic briefing this will come up and both John Erdman and I can respond to it.

What worries me about the President's entrance into this is that it places him in a position of ending a briefing where we're selling our case with a presentation which will have a negative response.

It will change the direction of the conference, which is aimed at the President's positive domestic trust, to one of emphasis on the New York Times.

Because of this, I think regardless of the strong opinion of the President on this, it should not be the major thrust of his remarks.

If he feels he should restate his position briefly, this would probably be all right, and maybe it would emphasize his conviction.

In the main note, it would be more desirable for the President to emphasize his desire to make progress domestically, to do as he did in Birmingham, outlining his goals in foreign policy,

Now, with that group, at that time and that place, I think he's absolutely right.

That's my point.

Now, I think what you've got to say on this is so damn important.

That's right.

That if you're ever going to say anything, you've got to say it to people, not to a bunch of...

I have another call.

See, you might put this down.

You might not say it.

I'm not sure they said I want to talk to them anymore.

And why not?

Yet, I write a personal letter to every editor in the country.

And to every television person in the country saying, I am presenting this as my considered views on it.

And I put that on a personal letter.

I could say this to some of all this administration.

Do you know that there are 100 million pages?

I mean, I couldn't, it's hard to get out of here because the children are standing.

There are 100 million pages of documents of World War II that have not been declassified.

100 million pages.

There are 75 million pages of Korea that have not been declassified.

75 million pages.

They're standing.

Yeah, and I didn't know the numbers, but I knew there were tons to pay for it.

My point is- I know that there are on this one.

We're not getting- My point is- Are you aware of what the New York Post, Washington Post has done this morning?

Well, forget about the Eisenhower thing.

The point here is that what they're working with is

not released yet by the Times.

What this indicates clearly is that the Post has the file, or at least some of the file has a record of the Times, and that they're playing it much smarter than the Times did.

They're writing it as a byline article, working from the documents, rather than reprinting the documents per se.

I don't think we should, because it would just cloud the issue.

What we've got to do is stay in the New York Times issue.

Yeah, and the Times printed the verbatim documents.

We cannot get in the business of going after paper when it takes a document and, you know, paraphrases it.

Because we can't say that, because then we're giving carte blanche to the R.I.L.

of us.

I share the concern.

I share it.

I think Herb's point of view is the one I come to.

One that I don't think versus Satan is that.

says what overrides us.

But let's get back to Henry.

If you put Henry in a

Nothing.

What we really should be doing is try to get Henry to simulate a senator, a congressman, somebody.

We can use Henry for that purpose.

Well, how about Henry's background being a newsman?

That I think he can do.

Well, that's what he... background is not on the record.

That's what Brian's background is.

He's been on the record.

Oh, no, no, no.

Not at the briefing.

On the airplane.

With the press pool that's on Air Force One.

Oh, probably.

Going back there and just blowing up.

Yeah.

And when he finishes saying that's on the record.

It would make a hell of a story.

I'm letting you make the point that it involves administration.

I think that's best.

I don't think I thought they had the necessary basic job of finding the times at this point.

I agree.

Dice.

Unless we saw clearly that we had the exact on the right thing, but we don't, let me say.

It's obvious that our team, Colson et al., did fail in getting the stuff up to the hill.

Probably.

No.

They got it up to the hill.

The hill is what we're using.

But they jumped back on me and said that McGee is using it.

McGee's on now, and there are others who are using money to use it today.

So maybe we are going to get some on.

I think that kind of thing, starting now, and seeing what the court does, because your position is quite different, the court upholds this, than it is if it throws a sound.

We've got to either appear to be fighting this all out, and that's what it seems to me we want to appear to be, and that's what everybody in our place here feels.

And that's our first objective.

Our second, then, to the degree that it's consistent with the first, is to say this has nothing to do with us.

That if we're so obsessed with trying to make sure this has nothing to do with us, we're going to blunt our cutting edge on the other to the point where it ain't going to cut.

I want to say that regarding this case, regarding this case, from a political standpoint, let us first separate the issue from a political standpoint.

This administration is out of its mind to be opposing this.

This involves, because this involves two previous presidents, both Democrats, Kennedy and Johnson,

classified documents.

This involves how the United States got into Korea and into Vietnam.

The documents regarding how the United States got into Korea, the documents of how the United States got into World War II, one involving President Roosevelt, one involving President Truman, and now two involving President, one involving two other Democratic presidents, those documents also are classified.

That's one issue.

How did the United States not evolve at all?

Then, since that is the case, why, since politically it's unharmed to us, why don't we, or why do we object?

Because we have a problem that here, and to go into the basic point that we have to protect the president's sources, we've got to protect our board policy sources, we've got to protect the president's writing and advisors.

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And the way I had told somebody that nobody did it now, and I said, for example, at the rest of the time, we've made progress with the salt.

We have discussions going on.

We have discussions going on in Berlin and so forth and so on.

I've had discussions with 70 or, since I've been in office, with 67 chiefs of state.

None of them have ever, one of the reasons that we have made progress in negotiations with New York City, the city, the city, all of this is a discovery that they've prepared.

And that could have all been him.

You've got a way to do a good story against us in Indiana.

There's a dangling American's ability to work for peace.

We must defend the security of our own people.

Now the other question is, the other question is again, really doesn't this, as far as public reaction is concerned, I understand this is a question of what the people, the people are going to look at this, what is the administration trying to cover up about war?

That's why I think you ought to make a point about the fact this is not, that it has to be made, that this is not involved.

We did not get it before.

That thing has to be made.

Okay, now the guy who would like to make it, that we've said can't,

He's the kind of guy who can stand up and say, we're out of our minds to be protecting this, but I'm the leader of the Republican Party.

To me, this is the greatest political windfall that's come along, but I

Did you see what he presented today?

He's issued a whole documentation of every time he's told the president the war was bad and what he knew and didn't know.

The son of a bitch has fired Johnson.

I have this.

What does Dole's attack do with regard to our relationship with Johnson?

This, you see, we don't need Johnson.

It may hurt, but it won't hurt as much as if you or someone else said, I'm not.

We can say to Johnson, you know, he may say, turn off your damn chair.

Let me ask the people who have talked to Johnson.

All right, coming on to this other thing.

Ron, you were on the issue before.

Three lines up as you fought against the war.

And people are already on that.

And so I don't know that this issue accepted any of the war headlines.

What's your judgment on that one?

It sure made a hell of a big show right here.

It's a story of talk.

Mitch is back in Chicago.

Yeah.

And says there's much interest in the country, even with all the media coverage.

It's a media story.

I'm too confused.

The people in this country aren't all incensed about the freedom of the press and rights and all that kind of stuff.

They just...

I don't think so either.

It isn't a big emotional thing.

Which means that you can attack it.

You're right.

I think...

Clearly, you've got the chance to make an enemy that you might as well make.

It's an enemy whether you make it or not, so I...

The Times has always been an enemy and always will be.

Why the hell don't we take it on and make it a real enemy?

Have you had any S.W.I.E.L.D.s, Schultz, or anybody above my experience in the Times?

No.

Nobody S.W.I.E.L.D.

yet?

No.

They will.

I know they will.

I watch them stop.

Because it's going to get...

So far it's been easy, but where it's going to get sticky is when the Times realizes we've done it.

It's a terrible error of freezing the air at times.

We're not freezing the time.

They're there.

Peter, you see them in the press conference.

You see them breathing.

They're replaced.

We just can't see everybody.

We've got to pass them.

Bob, we're going to do it.

This has got to be done.

This is war now.

It's a good war.

And it's a good story when it comes out that we're freezing the times.

They say the times can't get into things anymore.

We just smile and let it go.

But it'll get out, and it'll be written, and it'll be a big story at some point.

It's a different thing.

Now, folks did care about Kennedy canceling his Herald Tribune subscription, because that was a fit of pique, and it was a childish thing to do.

This isn't, and I don't think we have the kind of problem that President Bush does.

It's much more subtle.

This is why it's much more subtle than that.

Yeah, if you heard something,

I think I should hit it now.

I think I should hit it.

I think I should let the judicial process go along.

And I'll take a look at it next week.

And let me make one hell of a speech if I want to.

On the other hand, we've got to realize, why should I make a speech about this?

He's trying to defend the war.

Most people believe we shouldn't bow and not have gotten into the war.

He's trying to defend how we got into the war.

Today that would be the issue.

And I don't think that would be good.

And it would be unhappy to make the issue on the basis that they stole papers.

That would be bad.

I don't know why they did that either.

Oh, I know.

Well, he hasn't been in the past.

Well, the Ellsberg thing is building up kind of nicely now.

He's disappeared.

I called on his own name.

He and his family haven't been seen for a week.

And they're starting to build up a story on Ellsberg.

A week after that, South Henry told us about how he used to careen around Vietnam in a jeep, killing everybody in the block to down them.

But Cardi, obviously, Henry certainly knows all these people.

And Simon Cowell has a big story of how Henry

He used to spend a lot of time at this guy's apartment.

Henry says he's never been at the guy's apartment.

Who has this story?

Santa Monica, Alabama.

At his apartment in Santa Monica.

A neighbor says he's cheating.

She, I guess it's a woman, says she saw Henry kissing June every morning.

Henry must be torn at the Jewish business.

Every woman is, isn't she?

Call him.

Henry doesn't back off of this one at all.

He is loyal, passionate.

His argument is we've got to fight this.

The only upset that I have is the only question I have remaining is whether or not Henry ought not to restart back and hear the background here.

I wonder if he's conditioning the background there for us.

It took him so long to get it in and it did his job.

the bad way they have it from now.

Even though you do it, he says do it for the reals.

John doesn't really know what he's on.

He's not unspecified.

You've got to apply.

I mean, maybe you've got to be on at night in order to force them to cover it.

But basically, the state of this is inadequate.

It just isn't adequate.

And I just don't think it's the right thing to do at this point.

Plus the fact that you've got, this is the day the court's hearing.

You would be

Legitimately subject to getting in the middle of legal action.

It would appear legitimate to people in people's minds.

for the sake of the bike.

Well anyway, I don't see why no one should get it.

Let's analyze that a bit.

That makes it a partisan political issue.

It doesn't do anything unless you tell it to.

He's the party leader.

Now listen, if you're telling me that this is not involved in our administration, that this was involved, as a matter of fact, I'm telling you also to use the facts here that you didn't think out of this.

across the back of our administration.

Nobody else?

No, he can't fight the train.

That's the other thing.

Now, John will be up there and he'll hear.

He is very susceptible.

You have a perfect reason not to talk about it.

Nobody can criticize you for not saying anything.

and then we do say something.

But now, we shouldn't always, of course, find excuses for not always.

I don't think we have today.

I think we go on and on.

I'm inclined to think we go on just here.

But just here, the only thing that I think needs to be

I'm not sorry.

But he put it in the back of the president, doesn't he?

It is this president.

Yeah.

And the need to, in fact, solve everything else on this.

They're jeopardizing the year of negotiation.

And we'd like to do it if you give him a chance.

He's also running for it.

It might be a hell of a lot better.

I've forgotten he's going to Florida.

He's coming down tonight.

It might be a hell of a lot better for him to bust that thing open tomorrow with the full grass at Florida, rather than just the pool on an airplane.

It also looks a little better.

Very good plug-in.

And we've got, that's, thank God you redid the movement and got, did the shit out of it.

Except we're going to reword the statements.

And that will get it, you know, in question.

We will spend $155 million and whatever else is necessary to, you know, personalizing of Jackie, rather than just saying I'm setting up an office here.

I know.

They didn't even have Jackie in it at all.

They just said, I'm setting up an office now.

An office doesn't make a ditty shit.

He's a...

He's a... Oh, damn, I didn't bring him.

He wanted to be tested this morning, and I have it from Schultz, the thing on personnel.

He didn't even remember the hell of your point.

Right?

Well, yes, but what it boils down to is there are only 1,200 federal employees in those nine.

that one of the things that Jaffee should do as he comes in is in the first few weeks, he should look at those and if, for instance, that hospital that looks as if it may be that operation of the 450 is not effective, what he should do is pull the whole thing down.

A good dramatic negative move like that would be very effective.

And tell all of them.

Because that's what we're looking at.

He's got the compilation agency by the office and we're the opportunity.

Yes, yes.

What did they say, bigger than last week?

No, Cronkite put it negatively.

He said U.S. casualties continued, or another 25 Americans were killed last week in Vietnam.

It wasn't super negative, but it was, you know, the question.

The others?

They are only 25.

Yeah.

How was the situation there?

Of course, the vote in the House was good.

Well, no, they got quite a bit of blood.

And it came out as very good, but the negative guys always find their way around it.

And they found out this, it was the largest vote for

so far, but it's still, they were quite a victory.

One thing we don't know very well is to get any ideas.

So, what's going on?

I don't know.

This is the idea.

This is the expected.

We have to expect that.

Just put this together.

Take this for a second.

Yeah, things have been scheduled.

I want to make sure they're

that I'm going to rewrite, that's all.

It's just the trip items that I'm going to get for you.

I almost put it out, so you don't have any problems.

All right?

Yes, that's what it is.

He got a, just like the other one, broke down and everything started pouring in from every which way.

President, Senator, what is it?

And then let's come back and slash.

I think Henry can hit Saturday before.

That'll make a good Saturday shot.

Better.

He doesn't reply to me.

He just lands it all on me.

It was a home run, I think.

Yeah, the case would have been all right.

Maybe the case would have been better if it wasn't for this one.

I understand.

I'll read it again, please.

I just told John I made the decision not to kill her.

And I heard it was wrong.

I think he'll agree.

Thank you.

We will not tell the towns or anything else, and there's a certain risk in that that I don't think is much.

Still want to go ahead out here with young kids.

The risk is minimal because we just say I'm going to drive.

I don't stop anywhere.

Chief is going out tomorrow and run through all these areas.

I got the opportunity to see what that really works out.

Another thing you could do is to let them all know what it was for.

Don't get out when you get into town.

No, no, no.

So the people of the town will always say, yeah, that's right.

The president's driving.

That's right.

The president's driving.

We're doing the best decision on this.

I don't know.

I must say, I think we tend to get all on the stories.

I really think the point you make is the political point.

I think the government can channel Canada.

I mean, you're wrong to say we're trying to make both.

The point is we may need it.

That's right.

And the reason is that we have to.

This involves the previous administration.

So I should attack Humphrey, let it go to the back line, on the other side of the line.

And we've got to say, Humphrey should be just as bad as a week.

The other side of the line, I think we should just, I think we should really let Henry go tomorrow on a real blast on the other team.

And maybe consider the latter day after time.