Conversation 535-004

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He could have been stronger, but at least he was on.

The lead out of what he did came through as a pitch for

The papers ought to ask the government to solve it, to help.

Well, he got into the, he made the point, that's what they played in the news the other day.

He made the point, and he did it apparently quite strongly and emotionally, that we were jeopardizing our relations with foreign governments.

And he hit the sun on us.

He said, what if the small papers

We have, it seems to me, at least on the surface, the sheriff here is pretty damn good in that you have

monumental dividend from your practice of Mansfield and Albert, in that both of them, out of this Vietnam, you know, the North Vietnam, the NLF peace offer, the new offer yesterday, both of them have said independently and very strongly that this is, they don't, they can't say very much, that this is clearly an outgrowth of President Nixon's

initiatives that he's been conducting, secret things in various places, and it definitely looks as if maybe something is possible there or something.

The point is they both independently put the thing directly in the focus of what President Nixon is doing.

And I've got very good, it allows me to play the Washington Papers, but I've got very good wire play and some of them on the networks, yeah.

It's in the Washington papers, too.

But I think that gives us a pretty good example.

I would think that gives us a good position.

And maybe you don't want that now, but it seems to me, from the public viewpoint, it makes it appear we're doing something.

And the way we have it is because the Congress has done something.

Well, I think that's right.

And it gets to the point, you don't need all these goddamn resolutions.

to do these things.

And the other thing that it is also being good is that, I think, the public viewpoint, and it gives us a good position, is that they're now analyzing the NLF offer as being made because of the need to put more heat on American public opinion because of the failure of the peace resolutions in the Congress over the last few weeks.

In other words, they're losing their propaganda war here, and they had to do this as they moved to jack themselves up again.

And, of course, the idiots Cooper and Church and all of them are running out of an operating resolution for their game.

But Cooper just wants to go over there.

What, a new resolution?

To accept this?

No, they're going to have a new resolution to get out.

A fun cut-off with no date set.

But a fun cut-off that would...

Removing tubes from Vietnam.

Oh, shit.

I don't care.

I don't care, but it's just another... ...another plot.

Is Cooper here?

Cooper was already in the house.

Crazy little fart.

What's the matter with him?

I just thought he was...

He's, uh... You know, he'd come down from the nursing, had him on the band, and said he'd go to the book work.

He's at his daughter's, isn't he?

Yeah.

Sure he is.

I know he's doing some good because he's not setting a date or something.

I had a talk with Cooper the other day, which makes it very now that we go forward.

What's in my mind?

I'm not going to put out a text or a paper or something like that.

Very good.

I just don't want to leave.

I just don't want to happen.

See, that would mean I'd have to finish it today.

I may want to change it.

I don't think it would make any difference anyway, Bob.

But I was going to tell you what you can put out.

You can put out the first part where I declared this the opening of the Bison Channel Theater.

I will do that just like it is.

Put that out as my text.

Now, just tell Ron I don't understand.

Just tell him I don't have a text.

And one that you've already sent out.

It's in the script.

Two minutes and a half.

Share the opening.

See, I didn't put out the two chapters.

There's my opening remarks.

And that's not, as far as the resolution is concerned, those that are coming in.

I was quite lucky.

I may have to read something.

I want to be free to, you know, do what I want.

I don't understand if that's good or not.

So, yeah.

I don't know if it's a good game, but it's a good game.

But, you know, I have a story about this.

You know, it was like...

We may have to reconsider and look.

a small audience sitting there with no applause because it's the networks are getting sticky about we've we said this is an event and they're covering us and they aren't if we stage it just as the three of you along in the hall that's right

that they would be set that way.

Well, we can't, we can't be verticated.

We'll get as big as we can, but put it essentially as, we'll be all right by the centennial commission and the indistinguishable.

I just didn't want to screw up the name, right?

Yeah, smack it.

So in advance.

I have a feeling about this.

I don't know.

Of course, you've got to think about those things, but I think this is too goddamn confusing for a hell of a lot of people.

It's true that they're... Now, let me ask you about one thing.

What about the candid suggestion about my going on top of being the chair of the Johnson and Kennedy group?

Do you seriously think that?

I'm not sure, but maybe, you know, in a very perverse way, you can, as far as the man comes on the trail.

Well, I thought about that, and I know exactly, that's exactly what he has in mind.

He's a very good guy.

Well, and some of their people would be... Appreciative.

Appreciative, and there's some of their people, the kind of people who would appreciate that are the Johnson Democrats, who would be for you on foreign policy.

But I just think all that, I still think the overriding thing, you want to put the wall between you and the Johnson County people on this one.

And as soon as you, I'll thank you, I'll tell you, this thing is too clever.

Thank you.

Well, I think we've got enough of that already.

That's my point.

I think they can say the president has done his best to protect the presidency.

He's not trying to make political capital out of it.

Did you want to close it?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I'm going to close it.

You were saying?

I'm going to leave with the initial 10.30 to go over one of the 10 seconds.

I'm trying to retain control of funds to some degree.

Now, John's obviously got to manage the planning and all that.

But we have, as you know, that money stashed away.

We've used some of it, but we still have quite a bit.

And I think that you've got to keep that stashed away.

John knows we've got it.

Yeah.

And that's all right.

I mean, John, if I just tell John that.

It's a discretionary money that we use if we want to hire somebody to get on Ted Kennedy or et cetera, et cetera.

If we want to buy a whole lot of money.

And then you got into a discussion of doing some issue polling in four key states and a family

looking at what the family makes as their concern rather than what they make as the national concern, you've got to keep up.

That would be a very good thing to have.

Now, earlier than under Reagan, as we can pay for that, that was partly paid to the domestic council to pay for that.

Oh, that's a government poll.

That's what I thought.

Okay.

That's what we know about that.

That's under the politics.

Under the politics.

Now, maybe that we will...

I'm trying to hang off the pipe on all of these things.

Who else wants one?

Oh, Christ, we've given, we gave 25 to the Citizens Committee for Revenue.

I'm against that.

Well, I was against it too.

It's supposed to be a loan and they said they'll pay it back.

I think we've got it now.

Just say that money isn't there.

Just say it's gone.

Alright, there you go.

Now you've got it.

Now the other way around is that they can go and then, like we've got this note of money and things like that.

If they need some of those things, it seems to me that's where

I know it's bad.

The tendency is that they think there's money to spend it.

So I don't think there's enough money to save you.

I don't want money to save you.

He did let me into the car and all that much.

But they spent that $2 million, that goddamn film up there or whatever it was.

It finally worked out.

That's where they got that son of a bitch from, who wrote the book from, you know.

He was in that, that's right.

A horrible thing to think about.

My position is going to be there is any money in the river, you couldn't have any.

And leave it at that.

And I'm going to try and get it, but I don't want to say that one thing is clear.

I thought we had too much money.

Nearly two days before last fall, we'll be using some of that stuff.

I've heard of it.

We can do that.

Forget the congressmen and senators now.

I ain't gonna help any congressmen and senators.

Forget the governors.

Here's where you're gonna have to go then, and all the other people will be able to do what they want to do.

Do you understand?

Yeah, and I think we have to do it.

I'm so glad you're getting along.

I'm sorry about that.

We had Ford and Scott and some of the others, Percy,

on the Joint Economic Committee with statements already to go to the networks this morning.

Some of them also can do better in their districts than they do in Washington.

If he's out in Chicago or someplace.

I think this is one place where you get the Roger Johnson crowd up there and call the Congress.

We've got a good

Everybody's going to know the full story of this event.

It's the biggest monthly draft in 20 years.

Scully is going to talk to each of the network anchors in Wyoming.

He said he would personally talk with each one of the three network commentators this morning.

So if we don't get preempted by some big news, I think this will be it.

They have to give a good story.

The question is how much time do you give them to ensure?

We don't give them money.

It's got to be.

Except if you don't do something and you still carry it.

Because it's there.

It's not there any.

They've been told us to piece on piece on employment figures all the time now.

I want them to bang if they don't go.

I want them to bang hard by the elephant or whatever it is that makes them.

Yes, they don't.

They don't want to do it.

Interpretation.

He ain't gonna interpret anything.

Because he's, uh, because he got interpreting again, I hope.

Shut up.

Oh, he is interpreting.

I just want to be sure about the unemployment figures in this industry.

Yeah, pledge the improvement in unemployment is just a collaboration rather than a genuine improvement in the labor market.

What was it when it was going on?

Here's the best he can say.

Probably it would be fair to say that there has really been a small reduction in the unemployment rate.

The magnitude and timing of which is so difficult to evaluate.

I understand.

The drop we have should not be interpreted as a sharp drop from a high, uninhabited plateau for which we have been looking.

I know this man.

I know we're not ever going to have it.

My whole point is, it's all a goddamn game.

I'm saying it's just don't let her stand in the way of what can honestly be her concept.

It's a game.

It isn't a question of whether it comes.

It isn't too high right now.

6% is about to be included.

If you look at the fact of the makeup of the force, it's primarily young people.

But you've got a real problem.

You've got Paul McCracken and Arthur Bernstrom on the record saying unemployment's going to keep on going up.

Now, do you know what your problem is?

I think your problem is that they were asking unemployment.

Well, you know, Arthur, for a few years, I mean, Arthur, I'm going to figure it out at the end of the year.

I'm going to follow him.

I'm going to tell him I'm going to take it.

I'll be exactly this.

I'm going to make an analysis on employment.

All right.

Mr. President, don't be fooled by the darn figures.

You know, they...

That's just personal.

I mean, the difference between the big men and the little men in government.

The big men are those who make predictions that turn out to be wrong.

and then are more interested in their predictions coming through and have something good for the country come true.

The big men will make predictions that turn out to be wrong and then are so delighted that they turn out to be wrong that they look good.

If they are more interested in having the country look good, then they have themselves look good.

But they're into that kind of bureaucracy.

They have that son of a bitch, these people.

Get them educated again.

I mean, you'll need to mind and bother the political side.

The difficulty in this whole area

The economist looks at it from a very narrow point of view.

What something like this does is to give a little bit of spark to people.

It's a great psychological game.

A spark like this and people say, well, now the recession's over, let's go buy a new car.

The more people that think this... That's my point.

Ted's starting to think it's most...

But you don't need to say that because it's down a lot.

Well, I don't want to let up.

Nobody said this is only a tactical rise.

No.

We're all saying things are going to be terrible situations.

That's it.

We can't use money because we never use actual figures.

The actual employment has gone up by $2.3 million since January 1.

That's unhelpful.

But how good are these...

But the most significant story in there, Bob, is the one where Ellsberg says there were a number of people that worked with him on it.

Did you see that?

I talked to Hoover last night.

Hoover is not going after this case.

He's talking about, I don't know, there's something dragging him.

Something dragging him.

I don't know what it is.

I just wanted to know that in talking about this, you're very concerned that you don't have the feeling the FBI is really personally innocent with its fullest conviction.

particularly the conspiracy side.

She said, conspiracy, I want to go after everyone.

I'm not serious in Ellsberg, but we have got to go after everybody who's a member of this ring.

There is a conspiracy, and I've got to go after them.

I put Tom on gutting.

Tom on gutting.

Now, the other thing is, I want you to talk about this.

Somebody's got to talk to Blair about this.

Now, you don't have to talk to me about it.

We're going to talk to Blair.

Uh, uh, uh,

That's why I say I've gotten ahead, I've simply gotten ahead.

And although somebody in charge of this going after conspirators,

I don't know.

But you told me about the polygraph.

I want that done.

You told me I told that.

Okay.

That's the polygraph from any other officials that we haven't been honest about.

And, uh, yeah, I come back to the urge of necessity now, I think, of getting the man and making you go to it.

If you've got Colson in charge of it now, maybe you better do it.

You understand?

But getting him back, I just think you've got to get him back on some basis, and then just pointing at a thing where he has nothing to say about the big play.

You can't put him in charge of the big play.

He's too mean, and that's over.

But I don't do think you could use him on just saying, I'm here to do a job, Tom, and then point at him and let him go.

I think he could be used on that.

He's tough to work with.

My only question is whether there would be people who are better.

The point is, let me say this, time is a waste.

These people began to get involved in the act, but they don't want to get caught up in the conspiracy.

Mitchell is, I think Mitchell's statement was good, which he remembered to prosecute.

He got prosecuted, right?

Don't you think so?

Excellent.

Is that all he was being repressive about?

Hell no.

We've got to be repressive about it.

Well, they could have made a repressive thing, and I'm not.

I think you're getting, you're unduly sensitive.

I don't give a damn about it.

I know what they were like yesterday.

He was a little shocked when they said, I said, I don't have repressive moments, and I don't do.

Listen, I want you to give me the exact quote from what was said in the New York Times.

He said, did the counsel of the New York Times say, in answer to your question, suppose the provocation of these documents might jeopardize negotiations with regard to release the prisoners of war?

And he says, that's one of the costs, the prices of the first amendment.

It was the counsel for the enforcement folks.

All right, I want the interchange.

Now, one of the things I'm going to say, like if I do address myself very briefly, do this as I may, just to get it out of the way and say to them, I'm just going to say this, that I respect freedom of the press.

The press has its responsibility.

I have my responsibilities as the president.

As sometimes they come in, I say, for example,

Uh, uh, in an interchange in the court, uh, the, uh, I don't mean the paper, the counsel for one of the papers said that, uh, uh, that, uh, this, that, uh, one of the crises of the First Amendment, uh, was to jeopardize the, uh, my responsibilities is to do everything I can to every channel and particularly the secrecy of those channels if necessary.

to get back our POWs and to end this war and save lives.

And I'm not gonna lie,

I don't want 15 pages.

I want three.

And maybe six from Indiana on that.

Not on this very point, but...

That is a point that needs to be made, but others you can all make it.

But before we go into that, I want to check, what is your analysis of the state of play about what you expect it is?

Yes, sir.

If anything, I think it conceivably could be turning a little bit against the district.

I think the network specials, the different, the coverage I've seen.

It was Russia on that?

No, he's on it.

I, the...

The newspapers really don't look quite as self-righteous as they did in about two years.

I think I'm on that point.

I think we're on this one.

And I think you should keep the option open.

I'm opposed to saying okay, but I should understand it.

When I say saying something, I'm not referring now.

I'm not referring now to escalating into prime time and all that sort of thing.

I'm just saying whatever I say will get me an arm split.

I'm giving one right in the goddamn gut.

In a couple weeks, I made another announcement that will be interesting.

And I reckon that I think I may want to set them up with an old flag in the internet and an old flag there.

If you were to come to the city, speaking of the utter chaos of city to city government, where that stupid jackass Gibson appointed a 17-year-old high school kid to the Newark school board,

I think the newspaper issue itself is saying that

You look at a newspaper issue, and why didn't they just do both?

And I don't know.

The case is becoming an issue now.

The case in Ellsworth is an issue.

What did Johnson say?

What did they do?

I think they printed the best report ever.

What do you think?

You think that it will keep being printed and reinterpreted?

You think so?

The columns and the in-depth analysis of what it means and the significance of the debate.

You can see the difference.

The point Mitchell was making, it is worth doing what Mitchell wanted to do with it.

as a result of it.

You look at how the papers here play the Kennedy thing, playing this morning, big, you know, reluctant JFK dragged into war by military high command, like surrounded by books.

It's truly something.

Yeah, there's a big thing about the JFK, but that wasn't the first, right?

It was the first time.

They had to be announcing interpreters, right?

He didn't want to send the troops, send the people, and he probably wouldn't.

Well, they did it a bunch of times.

And that's just a local picture, the outlets and water.

Do you know what he accelerated?

I have said this in every other speech I've put that in.

President Kennedy sent in 16,000 combat groups and so forth.

President Johnson, when we came in, heard this.

Did you know that Never Once is about nap press, either interpretation or otherwise, carried the heavy market?

Never Once?

except when they carry the whole text.

Now, as I was telling you, this isn't her helping the Kennedys, but on that story, to show you what the Kennedys are, did you notice the time to review the books today?

Three Kennedy books are coming out this week.

One biography by Rose, another biography of Jackie by that old slob Molly Thayer.

A third is a biography on, uh, on Ethel.

Three books this week.

That's the way the Kennedys play games.

Three goddamn books.

And I'll bet you they'll all be the best sellers.

Ethel, Jackie, and Rose.

If you've ever had, if you ever, yeah, if you've ever had a biography on Mrs. Nixon who goes to Peru and all those goddamn things around the country.

No, you won't.

Nevertheless, let me say on this story, though, that my view still is not to, not saying, except at the lower case level, I am convinced, Father, that we should not do television on Tuesday night.

I'm pointing that to everybody.

In other words, just brush it lightly, and then get off, and then go on, and then go on.

The question that people are not in agreement on

or if there are no other people yet on this, obviously, okay, you should, is letting the camera cover it.

No, that's what you do so that it makes the TV news.

I don't, I don't, I don't, that's, that's one place where Johnson's Gallery has to push for.

I don't, this is their gallery, this is everybody's.

No, he told me, you know, I can't talk to the gallery about it.

He doesn't relate by integrity in things about having a camera cover.

The point is, it depends on whether we want to make it in the news that way.

It depends on what escalation you want.

Try to want the camera cover to go on live at night.

The argument to the camera is that then the American people are going to see it direct and not have it interpreted by a whole lot of hostile people who may write it with a snide interpretation.

I'm not convinced that Kansas City is, or the timing is yet right, Craig.

I'll have to say something out there in terms of just getting it out of the way.

If I don't address myself to the issue, I've got to say, I'm not going to address the issue for these reasons.

I'm going to go on to something else.

You see, I can't, I can't go before the others and just ignore it.

But I, but I can, but I can easily get off and look at them and pass and get them.

But that's not going down the camera.

I'm not going to go on camera and say, I'm not going to talk about this case.

Well, then I'm probably not going to use the trial.

Then I might.

That's what I meant.

And that may be what I was trying to do.

Well, if you do that, then you obviously don't want the camera.

That's the only thing I knew.

One, the camera is it.

He decided you are going to say something on a little.

I'm not going to say anything about the case.

That's what I mean.

I mean, he would have done that.

Well, I guess what this is, I mean, our case is clear.

Well, what else can be done on a structural weekend?

I think there isn't much more.

It really set up pretty well for the weekend.

The war, as you mentioned, again, you're going to have a massive non-attention factor for the next three days.

Everybody's going, this is a very poor weekend for people reading newspapers and watching television.

So we can, this is worth, we've got enough things going that it isn't worth trying to turn any more on.

Time to jump this next week again.

Which you started with that on Tuesday, the SEAL meeting, which will be heavily played.

Oh, sure.

Well, it plays to our presidential leadership on the asking matters line.

Coming on the heels of today's announcement is good.

To go to break, we did a lot of work.

We did a lot of work.

It was nice coverage.

It was a nice thing to coast into this weekend.

People will feel good over the weekend, I'm sure.

Especially this is the end congressman running around all day.

You know, for a month or so, it puts the enemy on the defensive.

On the economy.

It is blackness, not on the defensive, but it at least shuts them up for a moment.

And some of our people can go out and it also shuts up the jackasses in the administration.

Art Burns will run for our money.

He's the heart of the play.

I'm so surprised that he goes that far.

What are you going to say?

I'm going to say that the latest Harris poll, which is now out for publication next Thursday.

Next Thursday?

Next Thursday.

I thought it was a week from Thursday.

It's a week from yesterday.

It continues to rise in the understanding of the American people, but it points out that we... That's all we have.

It points out the enormous drag of the economy.

So if that starts to come around with stuff like today, the effect of this is predictable.

That drag in the economy is really struggling.

People aren't doing that.

You know what I mean?

No, it's just the democracy.

It's none of the people who are earning more, spending more.

You know, we're...

It's interesting, Ed Carter, I've got to say, no, he came into the scene at lunchtime during that, but it's going to be the other commissioners who came in

And Carter is not a big kind of guy.

He sees, in all the years I've worked with him on other things, he always sees the problems and really worries about them.

But he came in and he said, first of all he said, I can't tell you how delighted I was to see the obvious attitude that the President's got.

He said, I've never seen him so completely self-confident and so completely in command of events.

And that's exactly what's needed here.

So apparently you went in there in the morning session.

And he was all excited about that.

And he said, now, I'm your canonical.

And he said, don't.

Let yourselves get whacked off on this.

You're in dang good shape.

You should explain the...

It's interesting, because he had not heard of copy.

Because he was talking to me right before the copy came in.

He said, do example of conversation.

For God's sake, don't get pushed into control sound just because the businessman wanted it.

If you can just make the point that you're going to leave the tax thing where it is, that you're going to leave controls where they are out, and that you're not going to push for increased government spending.

In other words, you're going to leave the economy alone in effect.

You'll be in perfect shape because the economy left alone is ready to do exactly what you want it to do if you just give it a chance.

That's what he did on his own sales.

Retail sales.

You told me that at dinner.

I really doubted him because I said, well, the president was particularly pleased with your report at dinner the other night.

Your sales, even in the state of California, which is supposed to be a good pressure, you're up 9%.

He said, did he remember the 9%?

I said, yes.

He mentioned that.

I owe him several people.

I said, he's been talking about that as a significant factor, that as a conservative.

The two things that impressed me were Sears on the broad basis and then yours on the state of California where things were basically depressed.

And especially Southern California.

He said, well, our sales are overall state of California.

I said, yeah, but 60% are in Southern California.

He looked at me and said, how did you know that?

But he said that wasn't the case around the Nitro Center.

I said, yeah, well, then that can't be all that bad.

That's what he told me.

That's exactly what he feels.

He says they're damn good.

He said they're the right things, too.

They are the mix of what's up in apparel and...

Or see that it's not expensive cars, they're not selling a lot of other things, but people, people have to get out of their ass and work harder.

They've got to sell more.

The economy's got to move.

You know, we talk about foreign markets and the rest.

One after the other, later you're talking about the biggest markets in the United States.

The one thing where I think Tomlin's right, we're going to have to roll Schultz and the economic pressures.

And we're going to need to cooperate with Peterson.

That is, we may have never got a little cut on foreign access to our markets.

You know what I'm saying?

You have a tough career.

Yes, son of a bitch.

I've got to cut the bastards off.

Cut the guys off.

Well, he sure buys that, that we get to start being tough instead of being a very gut-fucked child.

He's right.

Well, I said that is a gut issue.

Yeah, well, we're going to find a way to build convenience.

Well, it's got to do with people.

This has been too long.

They're picking up the farm prices for the first time in 14 months and now starting from about $1.3 million this week for the first time.

Well, if we can get the other consumer prices down, the food will go up a lot.

Well, getting back to this cutting on paper, my view is that the most important aspect of the problem is to get at the conspiracy side.

The second thing is, I don't want anything put out about that declassification meeting that I had yesterday.

It put out the back of my head.

That's all I'm doing.

That's all.

Now, for example, I don't want anything put out about us being submitted to me because I do not want to have us to appear to be reacting to this.

In fact, if we react, we are to react in other ways.

I hope you didn't miss the point of my statement.

The point of my statement was not, well now listen boys, now because of the court ruling and so forth, that's the best one.

I said cut off all outside of the court order.

And Brookings, I should have followed them to Brookings today, but then they cut them off.

Also, Bob, I already met them.

I mean, I know somebody who wouldn't crack that safe.

Walk in and get it.

I want Brookings cut.

They've got to feel that Brookings is the real enemy.

They're old enough to do that.

Now, Laird, no Laird.

I think Laird's the one who played that game.

Cut off their hands, put them all outside.

The whole Council of Foreign Relations put them down.

If they got in, then we had no secret safe, and so it worked out.

No more.

Now the other thing, and then a cut of the number, if I say that's cut of the number of people who have access to cops, cops even from a minute, 200,000 to 100,000.

And then a new classification to the president.

I mean, to read the presidential stuff.

And then declassify all those things that aren't historically no longer insured so that we can get off the plate on that.

So I really think that declassification is going to be a wonderful thing.

Don't you, Sheriff?

They were gonna move, they were gonna move.

Waddle around on that side.

Which, god damn people, just met that councilor at a god damn post saying that.

They said, well, that's the price of the First Amendment.

I hope, which is, his little shit ass son is probably a better ass option.

Say, if we tucked away in Canada or, you know, Los Angeles.

Or, I want you to be sure, people never waste a couch.

These, these people from the elite, they'll go.

They're all talking about it.

Everybody, everybody.

Only one.

And he's been moving.

One.

It's about the war.

Now what the hell are they talking about?

I don't know something.

The repression issue, Bob, I couldn't agree more with you.

I don't buy that repression issue.

I'm not saying we're bad, but I'm not repressionist.

Don't you agree with me?

Absolutely.

I couldn't agree more strongly, but I don't think that's a vote-returning issue.

In fact, if it's a vote-returning issue, it turns a little bit our way.

It cuts a little bit our way.

Figured you would put it in terms of...

The president has to look at it.

The president has to look at it in terms of circulation.

We understand that they have to print anything.

I have to look at it in terms of the lives of American men, and therefore...

I have to protect the documents.

Well, of course, the order of the evening is the perfect basis for, in effect, more repression because they have said it's the responsibility of the executive branch to protect the documents.

It's not up to the court to prohibit it.

It's up to you to keep getting the soul of the beginning of it.

So, I've got to take questions.

Can I get a stone?

Can I?

Now I'll come back to this point.

What are we going to do about having an investigation as a conspiracy?

Could I suggest Chuck, maybe earlier than yourself, get Laird in and say, now Laird, what are you going to do about this?

Let's get him going on one track.

And I mean, he's got a whole bunch over there.

Get him.

You've got to get Uber going.

You need Uber about the conspiracy thing, you know.

The president should not be directly in this, to see my point.

You talk to Mitchell and say, I think we ought to get Uber in and put the top comment on this conspiracy thing.

I think we ought to get out and get some other people.

I don't mean she in the New York Times.

That's what I'm talking about.

Of course, she's guilty as hell.

But you prosecute a newspaper man in a difficult right position.

But thank God, if you go after Nelsberg, that political code that's working for

If he proves to be bad, that's a different matter.

I don't want to get one of those guys.

We've got to do it.

Well, they feel there's more of them than that.

They do.

Well, Ellsworth says, Ellsworth admitted it, and he said, I'll leave it to them whether they want to disclose their own names or not.

Oh, he must be a rat.

What a rat.

You know, the great thing about him, I've got to say for this, he never ratted on any of you.

Never.

Well, this was a more...

dedicated type spy than Ellsberg is.

Ellsberg is, he's going on a totally different basis than what Henry said.

He's not dope and he's, you know, he's screwed up.

Totally different kind of thing.

His was, knew exactly what he was doing and why.

Ellsberg probably doesn't.

I think he's a, he's a far out.

He was on this morning.

I didn't see him.

He came out at 8 o'clock.

Yeah, but he is, he's a strange fellow.

He's kind of a sickening type.

The stigmata.

I have so long, I mean the whole eastern establishment now has had this hard time.

They haven't long ago.

And boy, I know they aren't worthy and they are not fit to rule.

They cannot look them back.

They cannot be back.

You know, that's...

They do anything for power.

They don't give a damn about their lives, prestige, the goodness of this country.

That's the biggest casualty.

They are the biggest casualty of this whole...

Yes, sir.

I think Howard... Howard Smith's commentary the other night, which was... Yeah.

It was a great one.

It's something that people do understand.

You know, he's part of it, too.

Howard Smith has been part of it for years.

Part of the sailors.

Up until Vietnam.

He didn't always go to Vietnam.

His son got caught in America.

I must say, he might have turned around and said, Oh, hell, he's a close friend of Rob Scott.

He has to solve that question.

But he just made me, he was honest enough to have enough backbone on him that it just turned him off.

He said it must be because he's got a lot of concern, because he loves the press.

Remember, he came in to tell me that the press, how honest they all were and so forth and so on.

When I first talked to him, I said, all right, I'm willing to be convinced.

I said, I think you're overestimating it a bit, but I don't have anything against you.

Any other person?

He must be thinking now, what the hell standards do they have?

What standards do they have?

He's coming around.

He needs to admit it.

I don't want to know what I'm going to do.

At least he's fighting for it.

He was over hardlining the Rogers statement yesterday.

Fighting for tougher language.

I want to hear about do you think we're going to get to the establishment this way?

This is what we really have to do.

I think it's the, well, I think the theme that we'll develop in this, people do understand, is that the power of the era, era of... Is that the 10,000?

One thing I would hope, another thing I would hope.

Peter and I are talking to you about the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the Justice Department and any custody on the networks.

Two unresolved questions that we'd just like to get your decision on.

Yeah.

Let me say,

I wish the planet was a little more sophisticated, but maybe go ahead and charge it up and go back to the dispatchers.

I think it may be said again, obviously, what I mean by what this requires is a kind of a thanks-first service and conspiracy.

I want the incident of the USIA game must come over the USIA copy.

You know, banging on the head 18 times a day, just keeping his head in trouble.

Well, he's not as much of a problem.

He has to be with me, but I think that's the problem.

And it explains what he has to do.

He doesn't work with any staff, but there are very few people who have, you know, who are using him.

Well, Mr. President, we have a public request.

How's your effect, sir?

with the potential suit against the exhibitors.

That is the owners of the stations that are really network owners as well, who are also producing.

That's the extension of the suit that forced the movie companies, either the owners of movie chains

John, it's an impression that you suggested that he moved with this antitrust suit in the air.

The problem against it, and the one that Chuck previously discussed with you, is that it is the one real club we have over the heads of the networks, which may be able to keep them from letting their whizcasters run wild in the basement.

The other ingredient is, of course, the movie makers would love to see this suit carried forward because it would mean in time that inevitably these fellows would not sell that.

Each of these valuable stations, they wouldn't sell those stations.

And then they'd open up the networks for production from all sources, including the movies.

It kind of feels... Well, I think it's wrong.

The argument I would make is that

whether the case is good or not is perhaps not the major political consideration.

But keeping this case in a pending status gives us one hell of a club on an economic issue that means a great deal to those 300s.

They know that this is in the works.

And I think it's the kind of thing that might, in a very subtle way, be used as something of a sort of democracy.

Once you drop it,

There's damn little reason for them to say, well, maybe we don't like these, maybe ideologically we don't like the policies of the administration, but damn it, our bread and butter is spoiled here.

And I'm afraid once this one goes, that particularly with some of the other things the FCC has done, prime time access, although our people voted the right way, that they, that the network ownership may conclude that really there is nothing we can do to hurt them or to help them.

Or, on the other hand, I would guess the independents have no great desire to see production and exhibition maintained together.

You're talking here about the effect only on three people.

Well, actually, I just want to ask you this.

Do you think all of these groups may be sluggish?

Maybe.

Or maybe not sluggish.

Yes, sluggish.

Well, following your meeting with Julian Goodman, when Gulf Oil went to him to ask for time to rerun the wedding, Julian Goodman jumped out of his chair to do it now.

Before that meeting, he would have turned it down on the grounds that it's been run once in private.

Exactly that same thing happened with NBC on the Kansas State speech.

We went to them and said, Rita, I just went to them and said, we want to buy time to rerun it.

They said, no, we won't rerun it.

suspension on prime time and that's a rule this time they couldn't avoid this this is very important our game is more important than the economic game our game here is solely political and you could keep some pressure on them i want them but i didn't know when i did this as far as true is concerned i would be very glad to do

that's exactly why i'd like to hold this one because there aren't too many others

And there's none of that.

Well, the other area is the other area of CATV where we are trying to help with the FCC and moving along pretty fast.

But we're helping.

Yeah, we're helping.

And it sounds like a different group of people here.

They're really helping our friends, the independent of the station.

Well, it's very concerned.

But the value of having something over their head, I think, is pretty significant.

We may have to at least hold it for a while.

I think we should.

Sometimes we just want to hold it a while because I'm trying to get something out of the network, which is talking about the new network.

I see.

You've got an appropriate public broadcast, which discusses all of this.

to about the same, to about the same degree, sure.

We have appointed some good people, finally, to that board, some activists, in fact, Rather particularly.

He has created a committee with standards and he's beginning to work.

I think we've got a long way to go.

The major problem there, in my view, is that we have a good democratic bureaucrat as president, Macy.

The alternatives,

that it seems to me are available to us, are either to just go right out and try and cut the thing off its peddlers, its financing.

I think that would be bad from two points of view.

Number one, it does have a pretty good constituency.

There are people who think that's easy, but it's not easy.

Corporation for Public Broadcasting has different things.

Corporation for Public Broadcasting has in the past financed NET as has Board Foundation.

Board Foundation is more than the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

The Corporation for Public Broadcasting does provide some subsidy for NET.

That's correct.

And your... That's what I want to come to.

All right.

I don't really care about the board.

I know they're nice guys.

I like Bradford.

Macy's is a pleasant thought.

And who's it?

And Frank Macy's is a... Macy's and so forth.

I don't...

What you may be wanting to really cut at is the public broadcasting service, which is the one that puts on the Elizabeth Drew program, for example, which just cuts hell out of us all the time, or Sesame Street, which is good.

That has to be interesting.

If the programming comes through, it's the public broadcasting service, which a fellow by the name of Jerry Slater, who was Friendly's deputy in CBS as the executive.

And they're now talking about doing a network news program that they want to put together.

No.

It would be there if you could get our people in and cut the news.

She's executive there in the field of the Hartford gun.

Hartford gun.

It's from Boston.

My advice is this.

They're all bad.

It just doesn't do us any good.

It costs us, what, $20 million a year?

We've proposed $30,000.

We've got a hell of a bunch of problems.

Cut this on the bench down, Pete.

I've said it before.

Anything that helps me, I don't care who's on that.

Cut it.

Don't get caught at it.

I don't want $35.

I want $5.

$35 doesn't all go to NET.

It's very little.

What you want to do is get all support of NET.

I think public broadcasting is a bad deal.

Well, this is the way that we can keep the network, this is the yardstick, and this way we can get the net filter.

Yeah, they do carry a lot of good things.

They're the ones that carry civilization.

They carry Sesame Street, which is good and has a lot of support.

And for, after you and for two successive years having gone, increased the support, all of a sudden turn around and cut it, I think we're going to look bad.

I think the solution here is twofold.

One, cut a net.

I agree with that.

How do you cut a net?

That's my point.

Without cutting nets.

By telling CPD they've got to do their financing of production elsewhere, not a net.

Tell them they can't fund that anymore.

Well, then also cut a net.

I want net cut.

And secondly, don't you think we ought to change Macy's?

We ought to go get a professional.

Yeah, but also PBS should be cut.

Ooh.

What?

PBS should be cut as well as that because, or control, because that's where most of the... What's it called, PBS?

Public Broadcasting Service.

That's how it works.

That's merely putting together the educational broadcasting stations in every town in a network so that if Sesame Street is produced and it's going to be run somewhere, you've got to give it to people to run.

But that's the surprise.

They're the ones that can really just like... What can they do?

Well, they can...

They can determine program content more than anyone in the whole setup.

My name is Eddie.

Sesame Street, Civil Division.

Very nice little programs.

But they are nothing compared to the bombing we're getting every night, every night, every night, and the other public broadcasting stuff.

You know what, Brandon?

Just a little bit of shit.

I'm sure of that.

And all the people there are.

I know them.

I know the whole bunch of them.

I have a look at the thing.

I don't know.

I know.

But I don't have to.

I mean, the news is not correct.

But part of the question is how we're going to look if we just say we're against the financing of CPD.

But you know what the right answer is?

We just all try to fund and cut something.

So just do it as an economy move.

See, that's what I mean.

You can call it an economy move.

In other words, what if we cut it in half?

Just cut it back.

That's what I'm going to do.

I'm just not going to increase it.

I think it's wrong.

What's the argument for increasing it?

Why the hell should we increase it?

How the hell else?

That's my point.

I'm not for increasing it.

I think that if we take an aggressive act against it,

I think we can use the money as a whipsaw to get Macy and Hartlett Gunn out of it.

All right, do that.

The main thing is, remember, I want to cut.

I'm going to flush.

I can show you the next bunch.

It's going to be flush.

I'm not going to have this damn thing.

We're not going to give the enemy the storage to hit us with, even though they run a little sugar on the Sesame Street and all that.

That's just murder.

It's a murderous goddamn network.

And we're experiencing it, but we're not going to do it.

Every government-controlled network in the world is on the left.

Everyone.

The French are.

The Canadians are.

The British are.

The Canadians are.

The Reds are.

The Twins are.

The business is on the left, unfortunately.

I know.

But this is worse than business.

This is worse than business.

I'll let anybody tell you this.

Much worse.

It's just PBS and the rest of the...

Rattle around and get something.

You know, it's an amazing...

It's an amazing thing.

That Elizabeth Drew program gets two million viewers.

That's right.

And that's a hell of a lot of people.

That's half of today's show, for example.

And where does she go?

She goes on weekly interviews at night.

She tries to be reasonably balanced, but she's a dedicated left-wing enemy.

Well, there you are.

We brought her in the meetings.

No, that's true.

She's come on since I've been here.

That's true, sir.

That's right.

So what?

So we have faith and pace rather than these people who put her in.

I don't.

I mean, boards of directors don't run things, Pete.

You know that.

They have nothing to do with it.

And I think, unfortunately, Pace has spent a lot of time on this and has something to do with it.

My own view is I'm not too keen on Pace.

He's a slow-mo.

He's motion slow-mo.

Exactly.

He's motion, you know.

He's part of the establishment.

And he can give you the best line of crap you've ever heard.

But I know Frank Pace.

We've been along.

He just sort of...

But he's not... Rather he's fine.

Rather he's fine.

He's tough.

Bill Warren.

He's, uh, but he's busy.

No, the, uh, Bill, the wrong man, the fellow who was at ABC, the bazaar.

Oh, yeah, I know.

He's our, our, but he's busy with a, you know, a new job.

He's got to be done.

All right, how do you, how can we have, you can use the money for what?

First of all, uh, can't you get to Franco and just tell him you're just not interested in the goddamn thing and have him cut at $15,000?

All right, let me try it.

I have a feeling that you'll find in Congress there's more support for this than we expected.

Let's try it.

The Democrats will find it.

The best lever we have is if we...

Get the key people in and say, look, we're going to cut back the money unless you get us some people in there who are going to play it safe.

On the ambassadors, you know what I'm talking about.

You use your leverage and so forth to get our guys in, but also...

Just so that I remember.

I want it cut next year.

And the next budget, I want it cut.

So we're going to cut a hell of a lot of things for the next budget.

So let's give this one about a 50% cut.

You put that on the shelves for me.

I will.

This is one that is a candidate for a cut.

A 100% cut.

A big candidate for a cut.

I am looking for another man in Japan.

A fellow candidate.

I agree with that.

Now, what I'm going to do is to keep him.

I'm going to talk to him.

You're going to talk to him.

I want a very strong, pro-American Yankee trader.

I want you to talk to Connolly about it and say who he recommends.

And I don't know anybody else that you could talk to.

You must know people that could do it.

But Pete, for example, you need a guy like him, as tough as George Shannon used to be when he didn't come into some of his problems.

Did he do it or not?

I haven't seen him in two years as president, I'll find out.

I like him, you know what I mean?

I'd like to have a ton.

I mean, I think what we need is a businessman as ambassador to Japan.

That's all we have to do with Japan.

Now, Okinawa's finished.

How does your friend Bert cross?

He's tough.

I see.

My only experience with him is he's been tough.

And again, I'm not so rewarding about it on this one.

I'm really interested.

But look over your whole list of people.

Malik has a list.

I heard this.

I suggested the name to you the other day, and I've been doing this recently.

Bud Humphrey, George Humphrey's son.

He wanted to be a pastor.

I had no idea.

I mean, he's very tough with the jurors, but I'm not so sure.

First of all, it sounds good.

What the hell?

I'll do it.

I won't leave this.

Damn, I'm trying to get him to leave for that.

Do you ever mention this job?

No, no, no.

All right, talk to him about this job.

All right.

Say, now, Tex, this is, we need the band to go there and we need to deal with Japan.

You talk to Conley.

Conley must have some ideas on this, you know.

And I want the toughest sum of the bitch we can get.

Now, as far as your other words are concerned, my present thought, just to put in the back of your mind, we'll take that fellow we got in Korea, and we'll probably put him in Paris.

We'll take the Marshal Green and leave him where he is.

Or, excuse me, when you say Paris, you mean the negotiations?

That's probably what we'll do with him.

And we'll leave Marshal Green where he is.

or he's no good, but at least we got him where we can watch him.

Or we'll push him into Thailand.

It's all about the smart, not trustworthy either, but at least smart.

Why not have a poor bag to choose from?

Mr. President, on one of those, Japan, Rummy,

I think sending a businessman would be understood being sending a guy.

Well, he's yours.

People will see that.

But I'm afraid of him.

I'm just afraid of him.

I don't think he'd get over there.

He's such a nice fellow, you know, that he'd get captivated by the Japanese and they're such wonderful people and so forth.

All that sort of thing.

I want a guy that's going over there to be for us and against the State Department.

right down the line.

I'm not worried about him being against the State Department.

He may be sympathetic to the Japanese.

That's the problem.

You know, it's a terrible virus.

People that have not been ambassador don't know how hard it is not to get captivated by the country you're accredited to.

The other thing that it has an interest in pouring, I believe, Thailand, or Russia, where the capture is not quite so bottomless.

If you didn't make a change there.

The last one, I don't think, I doubt that he would, that he ought to, but I don't know that he would, would be an angel.

That's a big goal.

That's the best one.

Yeah.

I don't know if he has any experience.

But I don't think he's, I think he'd have to be

He doesn't have to be sold.

He doesn't have to be sold anything.

If he doesn't want to, that's fine.

We've offered him everything.

But don't worry about him.

I mean, he doesn't have to decide what he wants to do.

Well, if you're thinking about it, I think that's my will.

Well, I don't think we may.

We may have to have a more experienced guy in the bathroom.

We wish to do it, but nonetheless.

I agree with you.

uh... uh...

Peterson's looking, too.

I said, you find him.

I mean, give me a recommendation.

I'm like, you should get a recommendation.

Henry doesn't come up with anybody because he doesn't own the businessmen to do it.

Peterson ended up, oh, I've got to watch his guys to be sure.

Peterson knows what we're after.

We want to be a tough Yankee trader, again, as an ambassador, and one that will be a signal to them, a signal to the Japanese.

That's what we need.

It's the greatest post in the world.

I hear you talking, but I just imagine that it's a horrible city, but it's the greatest post because it has the greatest challenge.

It's not there, except for Germany.

See, Russia doesn't mean anything.

They can't do anything there.

Nobody does anything there.

And Britain and France are just symbolism, and Italy, I mean, just go about with me.

The Germans are significant because of the current things, but that will change.

And Russia's doing well.

Japan is the game.

Maybe we might have to speak.

We could take Russia over there and send him over there.

That might be a split.

But I did it.

See what I did?

At least I'm not going to send dreams.

I want Satan to know right away that he's not poor.

Changed my life.

I'm a businessman.

I've got to go to Japan.

I'm concerned from what I hear from Kissinger about Argentina that she says is a sensitive post.

I mentioned that to you.

You say, well, I just want to play around and not work in

Pardon me, sir.

I tried on this.

You said you wanted me to meet the gentleman.

Oh, yeah.

I was going to say, just for the fun of it, I made you go out and talk to him for just a few minutes.

All right.

Oh, yeah.

I didn't refuse.

Well, what kind of a job are you doing?

Well, there's always a little bit of that.

That doesn't bother me.

John Hendricks is not a very serious fellow.

That's a problem.

He likes to plug in.

He doesn't like to work hard.

Talk to Henry about it.

And he is concerned, because he figures it's a key post.

He said that it would be all right to move them if we could find a decent place to put them.

The only one that's open in Europe that Henry says isn't sensitive, surprisingly, I would have thought, is Finland.

He needs the job.

It's on to him.

He needs the money.

John, the poor guy's got loyalty, you know.

Yes, he does.

He's one of our guys.

I'm sort of sorry about that.

But, you know, some people just do like to play.

Take Jackson.

He's a loyal follower, but he'll lose.

But they, you know, they screw themselves on with that.

That's right.

Bullets.

It's just not heavy enough.

They're both smart.

The smartest out of Jackson Hill is the smartest out of the 50 Hillies.

But they drank through themselves to death.

Now, that's just silly.

Just silly as to destroy it right in front of your eyes.

Well, then they come in and want something else.

They don't know.

Why have you been on the Austrians?

Well, because we have a good fellow on the Austrians doing a good job, as is the guy in Finland.

He's apparently doing a good job up there.

But he was a damn big contributor to the film, in Austria and Perth.

How good is he in there?

Who else do we got?

We don't have any other moves.

We've talked about Brussels.

He's taken care of that, as I understand it.

Well, we ought to give that to that fellow who wants to contribute and come forward every day.

That's right.

You know who he is, don't you?

He was in the previous administration.

Yes, sir, I do.

He was a mentor to Ed Pyron, you know.

Yes, sir.

You know him well.

I do worry he gets probably done his health.

But he'll be all right.

If he wants to give the money.

And apparently his wife is quite nice.

She's French.

Yes, yes.

You know much better than his brother.

No, I don't know him.

My parents know him.

My uncle knows him.

He likes the resources.

He's fine.

He was a great boss.

And for us, we've got two other brothers.

That's only if he gives the quarter quicker.

Yes, sir.

That's the purpose.

I understand that.

Well, Australia, you're holding for Cooper, as I understand it.

Cooper?

Yeah.

Oh, that deal's off now.

Yeah, I talked to John a very short time ago.

Who's John Cooper?

I talked to John Mitchell.

Oh, you better check.

I think that Louie Nunn says the deal is off, but check again.

They had a primary on there or something, right?

And I don't think that they've worked it out so that Cooper can go home.

God, it's still a possibility that it's getting done.

Australia would be fine for a collage.

Gee, we had a bunch of trippies out there over a long period of time.

A lot of relations and sort of an elegant following, I mean, he would impress the office.

He'd be better there than he is now.

The cardinals are a little stuffy, and they don't understand singing in the nightclub and that kind of thing.

Because he's singing in the nightclub, he likes to sing in Spanish.

They're kind of...

Bill Middendorf wants to come home middle next year, early next year.

I have a suggestion on it.

Somebody wants to call Bill.

For me to call Middendorf.

He has to come back January 1.

In the meantime, we've kind of assured Strassenfeld that the European folks can't stand Salon any longer.

Move them over there to the hop.

Now, there's no money in that.

But Strassenfeld does know something about NATO.

He's a naval gunner.

You'd never get him by the State Department for NATO himself.

But he'd be in the low countries if he knows the business.

That's fine.

Ask those people that come with a legit bill here to help us raise money.

Right.

Now here, it's a little longer than you can see, but it could be longer, of course, but even then they get the worst gamble because they don't change it fast enough.

It takes three or four months before they change them.

And it's best if they had a military.

He'd be thrilled.

He'd feel like this is the best thing he could do before a pandemic.

And you see, not anybody now, being who has not even changed, should change by the first of the year.

In fact, they ought to change by the first of the school year so that whoever goes in knows it's going to be at least a year and a half.

I don't think we've been able to change it.

And he said, all right, we're going to go January 1st.

Well, there's going to go that short.

He does, but he's going to go back to this.

That fellow, Tony Marshall, this is all coming to an end.

I suggested him for Salon.

It would be fine if we could just make sure it would be fine.

Mr. President, you... Can I go on to another subject?

The State Department, they reached out to me, and I have subsequently discussed the bill in some way.

And I must admit, I thought it was a very tough decision.

The arguments in favor of it are, one, there's a job that needs to be done.

I think that's pretty clear.

And two, the way the White House is structured,

Well, I trust him to do some things that are valuable.

I could be moved without, without slaving on the structure.

On the other side, the arguments against it are, I talked to Bill about how important it was that he said, go on, make this fellow think you just like him, undersecretary, and put up, send up some legislation later on.

And frankly, I don't think there's a chance that Snowball is going to get that.

No, he was going to get the truth.

I agree.

And I said, Bill,

What's wrong with the traditional structure?

Do you really think economics is this important?

In foreign policy, why not go back to where you were and have your second undersecretary, the fellow in charge of economics, argument that when you came in here, you need some continuity no longer pertains.

You've been here for two years.

And who's the in the economic picture.

And he said, oh, no.

So my own concern is that in spite of the...

He should be surrounded.

It might be out of the policy, and to the extent that I can make it happen.

And I think the client thinks you shouldn't do it.

What?

Mr. President, I'm not down here... No, what I meant is, what I meant is, I'm inclined to think you shouldn't do it.

I'm thinking of all those things, because I just don't think they'll give you enough to do.

That's what I'm afraid.

Now, I don't know.

But on the other hand, look for a man to do that.

They'll need somebody to say, this is my duty, this is my fault.

He doesn't believe us.

Just to finish, I'm having a fine time, but I'm not down here for a career.

The essence of the thing is, if you want me over there, I'm delighted to do it.

If you prefer that I stay here, I'm delighted to stay here.

On balance, myself, it's a very close question.

But I think that the negative is that he's not willing to go out and put that... Well, what I was saying there is, I'd like for you to talk to Peterson and Connolly.

And then I would like to talk to you, Peterson, and Connolly about it.

All right?

No, bring Haldeman in to the two of them.

Because Haldeman can put the White House in.

And then maybe we'll go to California and we'll come back.

Or else we'll talk about it.

You see, Connolly deals as a desperate aid for somebody in the space that will play our game on.

Peter said there's a need for somebody in the state.

All of it, there's a need for you here, you know, that's the goal.

And, you know, I think we need to, let's, we hear, if you don't do that, let's put a man, let's try to get a man over here.

Maybe there is somebody.

I, I, it's got a lot of attraction.

It needs to be done.

But frankly, Mr. President, he's not, he's going to sit there with, saying that he needs Alex Johnson to do the political work.

military.

And every one of these decisions is a decision weighing the economic against the political.

And he's not willing to do anything about it.

I like Johnson.

Some deputy undersecretary, even if he comes out of the White House, is going to have a damn hard time carrying him there.

George Champion coming back to him.

Give Paul Lewis a call.

He called him.

He called me a couple of months ago and said, George, you quit drinking.

It's just fine.

In reality, you have to do something.

All right.

Now, I just don't know.

George, he's got deep personality problems, you know, like we all have.

But he's a damn good friend.

And he knows your hand.

What's the back of his hand?

I'm going to try both bowls and candles.

Candles, he's quite good.

Candles, right.

See what he can do.

Good.

That's excellent.

And down line, that's excellent.

What's your vision?

Do you really need a bowl of the Charter Puzzle like a candle does?

You see, he had a unique game.

I'd rather have someone younger guy with more balls to go in there.

He'd be a champion, I think.

You see, he fights in American games with champions.

He fights for us.

Oh, you bet.

I have most concerns about that.

With Cross, I know.

Cross and Kyson.

What about Kyson?

Mr. President, I wasn't all that moved by Tyson.

A little bit, I've seen him.

I don't get that.

I'm telling you, he's doing a good job.

Well, he's not.

Young Bechtel has enough balls to do it, do you think?

Oh, yes, yes.

I don't know.

They're huge companies.

Yeah, but when it's your father's, it never looks quite as good as it does.

I'm not the guy that knows more about costs and trades.

This is all over the world.

I don't want a guy that's devoted to free trade.

That's my problem.

I want a protectionist over there.

Now, you find me a protectionist businessman over there.

Fair enough.

Yes, sir.

Now, you've got... Now, this is a big sign of that diplomatic group.

I say, run it by Peterson.

In other words, run it by... Run it by Connolly.

See if Connolly...

He might come back.

If he had a Connolly, I'd send him there immediately.

I agree.

He'd be great.

You know, it's one thing about coffee.

The guy's got a lot of, a lot of, that's an obsolete program.

It's like the other day when we made these, he walked out there like a man.

He said, we're not going to raise taxes.

We're going to veto this bill.

We're not going to have wage and price controls.

We believe we're on the right course.

What else, gentlemen?

That was great.

Wasn't it right?

Yes, sir.

And what it did to those folks, they'd just sit down and they'd ask a question and he'd say it.

I don't know.

I don't have any comment about that.

They just couldn't believe they were getting stonewalled the way they were.

And that's, you know, he's such, he's a master at this.

He's a master of all things.

Yes, he is.

He really is.

I don't know.

Who else would be good at that, you know?

Let me, uh, let me look over at Gideon's army list.

That was pretty good.

Yeah.

Let's pull someone out of there.

Yeah.

Well, you know what we mean.

And then on your situation, you also talk about the same group, Connolly.

Peterson, Holder, or something or something.

And that's just destructive.

I'm inclined that they come down and say that they won't give you, that Bill will not play the game and the state will not.

But if he won't go to that, then we've got to shove somebody else in there to sort of get something.

Because we're going to make the decisions here.

We should overrule state all the time.

Irwin was not exactly fine.

Irwin is too weak.

And something has come out of him.

I think the fellows over there should be the secretary's man, but they should be your man, Irwin.

I don't know.

He belongs to the bureaucracy.

That's the point.

He belongs to them.

They're all the way to the bureaucracy.

You know, I don't think this kind of papers would shape them for their I.E.

though, because a lot of their people are involved in it, too, you know.

If Bill wanted to say, okay, I'll restructure this thing and make a second man, I mean, the economic man.

I'm not doing that because I need a title.

But I think it indicates to him

and everybody else in the government that he really hasn't committed.

Instead of just trying to create a defense mechanism against Pete, which is his workaround.

Yes, I will.

All right.

I'll be the second.

Good luck.

Thank you.