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I want to see a button here somewhere, because once I was pacing up and down here, and suddenly I have a Persecuted Service came swooping into this office.

All right.

Is the Jerusalem Resolution dead?

No.

Although, can they get any... Dead with fans, I think.

Well, aren't the Arabs fighting over the context of it, and they're going to back a lot of people off it?

Hmm?

I think it's going to go through.

You mean the Arabs will eventually get to Texas?

as usual.

Good morning, Mr. President.

Good morning.

I just want to take a minute to say something crucial.

There's some shooting going on along the Suez Canal.

It started in the middle of the big C3.

An Egyptian plane that was overflying there.

for reconnaissance, and they have been firing machine guns at these planes just to show that they weren't, when they hit one, really by accident.

A modern plane out of a machine gun must be a horrible poor pilot.

It was a lucky hit.

Thereupon, or maybe for other reasons, the Egyptians sat down an Israeli plane 30 miles inside Israeli territory yesterday, a transport,

There was 30 miles inside the Sinai Peninsula.

So this morning the Israelis have taken out some sand sides.

And that's where it is now.

There were some people who wanted you to appeal to both sides to show restraint.

I think it'd be a great mistake at this stage.

The thing they stopped now, the Israelis have said they'd stop the Egyptians.

No, we want to preserve the ceasefire.

I think we ought to watch it another couple of days.

I don't think we ought to get ourselves drawn into another negotiating round there.

At any rate, I want to...

Well, I don't know what it would do for us because everyone knows we want to maintain the ceasefire.

We invented it.

We say, please show restraint.

But we don't say, then they'll say, well, we'll show restraint if you give us phantoms or if you get the Israelis to move back.

And I talked to Bill last night about this.

No, not yet.

Yeah.

At this point, I'm trying to stay on for another reason.

It's different.

Not particularly this at all, but I don't think it's going to do any good.

Above all, it won't do us any good.

And I don't want to do anything that's imminent.

So they're fighting around with a little title.

They aren't going to have a war about this.

I think in fact, Mr. President, the Israelis are not going to go.

I mean, the war is going to come unless the Egyptians start roaring in there.

They told us they'd stop.

Rafin called this morning and said unless there's a retaliation, they won't do any more.

The Israelis won't do anything.

The Egyptians won't do anything unless the Russians urge them or unless the Russians tolerate it.

For reasons we know, the Russians are unlikely to have a thick blow-up in the Middle East between now and October 12th.

You think that's very recent?

Yes.

Do you think you are tolerating?

The pre-emission ban, yes.

He'll be back Monday, which is another reason.

If it's still going on Monday, I think that would not be a bad move to appeal to the Russians, whether we should jointly cool it.

Is the Palestinian raids on the Lebanese border any part of this?

That's mostly caused by the fact that the Fed are, you know, getting pushed out of Jordan.

That's good.

The Jordan thing has worked out very well.

Hi, Mark.

It's Bill Lincoln here with the Leonard Brezhnev.

I think you always take the brain and brace it damn hard.

In fact, Brezhnev did not respond with regard to the offensive weapons thing.

So I don't want that.

We have a number of problems with our...

They, as I understand, have solved all they've talked about, and I assume that Jerry Smith has not pressed their mind.

It's about the defenses.

They have told that they haven't, and they've blocked the offensive.

No, no, that's, Laird, Laird is beginning to try to make a record on that.

The major problem has been, there have been two problems.

They've been pretty tough on the defensive ones, and on the offensive ones, have not gone into great detail, but they've discussed it.

But part of the trouble has been our delegation.

John sits on this committee.

And it's the goddamnedest thing you've ever seen.

They're running this as if they had gone in there early in July and said, here is our understanding of May 20th.

This is what we want to discuss.

Then we would have known within three weeks where we stood.

Instead, first they raised zero APM.

Then they raised so many abstruse points that you have to be a theologian to understand them.

And finally, last week, John was at the meeting, I just cut them all off.

Because he is like a... Well, he's like a shyster lawyer.

You put in that letter that we are willing to have zero ABM.

Eventually...

So the next thing he now wants to put it into the preamble of the present treaty.

He's wasting time on it when he doesn't even have an agreement yet.

And he doesn't have put up a whole series of really cynical proposals which they would and which we should have disposed of in the first week.

The agreement now is, I have this friend, this right-wing friend in the Pentagon.

I've shown you some memories of his.

Kram.

He was giving me.

I should meet him sometime.

I don't know.

Bring him in.

All right.

Go ahead.

Well, he had said that Berlin was lost all along.

I know.

And I, in fact, showed you memos of it.

Well, he's now studied the text of the agreement that Ken Rush signed.

And he says it's unbelievable.

You know, he says the basic situation is lousy, which we know.

But the agreement as such is unbelievably good.

So there we came out all right.

Now, the only reason...

This isn't an unmitigated loss.

It's because, actually, we don't mind staging it so that you can sign it next year.

You mean to let the delegation get it screwed up?

Well, let the delegation horse around a bit.

Otherwise, it would have been unconscionable what they have done.

But John sits through these meetings.

These guys act.

Every cent's been trying to get it out, that's all.

Well, if you would, in this preliminary agreement, even mention zero ABM in the preamble as a

direction that you want to go, and you'd lose the ABM and the candidates who are going to vote for it when you're going to ultimately get this.

Actually, Mr. President, I praised, I praised the ruling on this offensive link before you went back, and on September 10th, the Russians in Helsinki made a formal statement that they recognized there was a link here, that the two had to be discussed simultaneously.

So I think we're going to move along on that.

Now, I have the uneasy feeling, to be honest, Mr. President, that Bill is planning in New York

when Riyadh and Gromyko are over here to pull some spectacular that he isn't telling anybody.

And it can't work.

Well, but it may, the danger we have in the Middle East is if we raise expectations, I think once the summit is announced, there isn't going to be a Middle East war because we won't let the Israelis do it and the Russians won't let the Egyptians do it, so be us.

We can play this thing along until next May.

If we can get an interim agreement, we can get an interim agreement.

We could have had one if we had been more modest.

We might still get one.

Can I suggest one thing?

Speaking of sons, which you probably already heard you with, I think you ought to have Walters Trump, the part of my president for the son, the Chinese, and the Chinese ambassador.

Yes.

How would that be?

That'd be excellent.

Because, uh, because Joe and I will appreciate evil in person.

I'm sure he must have seen it.

But you never know.

They could be calling it to his attention.

I mean, that would be a better...

I know it's the Middle East, so you must have chosen the right hope, but...

Bill doesn't foolishly come down on our Israeli friends up there for an unknown reason.

You know, they're all on edge.

And at the moment, the president's talking about the political factors of it.

Yeah.

Right away.

I'll talk to Congressman Zion.

Yeah.

Hello?

Well, I guess I'll tell you you shouldn't be working on your birthday.

But since you're out there in Indiana on your birthday, why tell all those crowds that you'll be speaking to that I called you to wish my Indiana friend from southern Indiana very best on his 25th birthday?

Is that how old you're old enough to be in Congress?

You're old enough to be in Congress?

Yeah, right.

Really?

Oh my gosh, you're the youngest one God ever saw for that age.

Well, listen.

Yeah, listen.

Good.

Great, great.

Okay, Roger.

I have no very clear idea.

I've told Bush to keep me informed about what's going on at the U.N. Be helpful if you could spend five minutes with him sometime.

Or John.

Well, what I'm getting at is

Bush is a good politician, and he knows where his power is.

You know what I mean?

He wants to do what we want.

And why don't you, John, just give him a call and say, look, here, here, we've got these problems and this thing and so forth.

Let's not blow up committees.

get pushed around, but you keep us posted on this.

If you do that, if you get it political, that's what it appears to be.

I'm just frankly trying to put it right this time.

If John falls in on the political side, I'm sure he'll understand it totally.

I think it's all over.

And you can say, John, that you were talking to me about it, and that I just don't want to blow it up now, but...

It didn't work.

Because I think we can keep it under control for the next year.

With all the problems we've got, we don't want to have a big fight.

There's no reason to push the Israelis out the window.

We're not going to particularly have their support.

We don't want to have their opposition.

Diane sent back a message through Max Fisher, for whatever that's worth, that they would be perfectly happy over there with a secret commitment on future deliveries of their fans.

They're not worried about publicity or anything else.

They're worried about down the road deliveries.

But you know these cutoffs?

They haven't been getting any plans since July.

They all need a Cedar commitment.

That's easy.

Yes, it is.

Keep them quiet.

You're aware that Bill Rogers is trying to negotiate on two tracks.

He's trying to negotiate one track of opening the canal and the other track on the delivery of arms.

Well, you've got a letter from Mrs. Mayer which I sent over to say, in which she rejects us.

Well, the best thing probably is to have a secret deal.

Frankly, I'd rather have it that way than for them to raise hell with us and sin, so we have to have a distinction of both, Cameron, and all that kind of crap raises hell with the Egyptians.

I'll make a secret deal with them, and I'll do it.

They know I choose the word.

This sets in with the whole rhetoric.

I'll tell you what I'd like you to do.

You just take a note.

And I think it would strengthen the bit that John were with you.

I want you and John to talk about it.

I think it'd be spectacular.

And then, now as I look here, we just, we think that first, and here's what I want you to say, that first, the president thinks that it would be very detrimental to the interests of all concerned to have this be an issue in a political year.

It is a political year.

Second, I mean, obviously, as far as they're concerned, they can push it.

And they can get it through in a political year.

But that would cause us, I'm sure, to deal with the Russians and with the Egyptians unnecessarily.

So the second thing is that, on the other hand, his commitment to keeping maintaining the balance is firm.

And he will do it.

And they can be assured on that point.

But the thing to do is to do it and not talk about it.

that we're willing to give that kind of an arrangement, but we do not, we would prefer that we do it low posture without having a hell of a publicity about it.

Now, third, we would like, of course, we still talk about having, you know, a progress in negotiating crime.

We want progress in negotiating crime.

We don't want this senior commitment to tell them that we are not interested in negotiating crime.

We can't.

No, but Mr. President, you see, what I have always believed is that

That at the right moment, as long as they think of you as a friend, if you come and now this you've got to do for me, it's a sham.

But if you, but right now we've cut off their planes, and we, yeah, they are not getting any.

They've been pretty good at keeping quiet.

And I've been keeping them quiet by massaging them.

Well, I don't want, well, the main thing is, John, I don't want regime now.

This has to be totally secret because I don't want him running to Rogers and the State Department and saying that we flew the people.

Of course, they'll say Henry flew the DLC.

That's why I want you there.

They're not anywhere near the deal, but you're right.

You're right.

No, no, I won't, Charlie.

Oh, they will say.

You see what I mean?

They'll say they're White House and they won't.

They'll know now why you wouldn't do this.

I told them.

They'll try to put the blame on you.

The reason that, Henry, we know the reason we have got to keep you always insulating to a certain extent here is they're going to plan to design this in the White House ability exam.

You and I know that's not true.

And if John was not here, but if John was with you, then they'll say, well, is that cynical, political son of a bitch next to you?

That's okay.

At the right moment.

Could you agree that this gives Henry a little cover here?

Yeah.

And if that's what we should do, then I think we should have John there.

I want John there.

Well, in addition, you have a recent report that Diane's proposal came to Fisher.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, the only question then is, Mr. President, are they going to get the plans or not?

How do we do it?

I mean, how can they?

Henry, we've got to get some information on it.

But as I understand it, the plans, of course, it was sort of forward deliveries.

Well, Henry, the point is, how do we make the deliveries?

Well, they're talking about 72 and 3.

They're talking about now.

Maybe they'll meet right now.

I think they mean right now, but we can talk that over with Rabin and say it's hard for us to do that.

We could anyone but land with Berudi behind them.

Berudi.

Oh, Christ.

Can you tell us where Berudi is?

Berudi's all right.

Berudi was in the center of the portal box.

the guy down at the Enterprise thing.

Well, Mr. President, if you have the chance to do it, we can find a quiet way of doing it.

All right, let's find it.

Same thing with all the deals we've got going on in Russia and China.

And, of course, with the problems we have to go through in Vietnam.

And it seems to me that it's...

to keep this one cool and not to blow this year.

Absolutely.

And the second point is that it seems to me that it's very much possible that John should sort of be the intermediary of Rogers on this.

Do you enjoy expressing your concern about these things, you know, from time to time?

I do.

So that Henry doesn't get in the middle, you see?

I agree with you.

So why don't we do it that way?

And we can string... And we can string the rest along.

by holding out the prospect that you might talk about some of this with them.

Well, sure.

In a sense, it would string the Israelis along, too.

And the Russians would string the Egyptians along.

And in a sense, we ought to do it.

I think it's a place to do it.

Well, the Russians have really been pouring in so much equipment that I'm not saying the balance is shifting, but we can say indefinitely that

What is interesting is that the French are delivering Mirage parts to Israel and they're building their own planes over there.

The French are back in that business, yeah?

Well, the French are not delivering planes, but they're delivering parts to Israel.

I'm going to print you a memo on the NFC meeting.

And also a memo with a scenario for the... Is George Bush all right?

Will he go back and watch over the tunnel?

Or is he going to deploy it?

And do I have to tell him that it has to be played that way?

Don't believe it?

Yeah.

With regard to this court thing, John, you and I have decided that we have only another two challenges.

So we'll get all the answers that we can.

Just the two of us will talk.

Now, I understand that you are working on that second case.

I didn't expect, I didn't know Manny was sick.

I mean, I thought he was old enough to be sick.

But Manny was safe.

The other one says that the bar problem, the pot, could be a ceremonial.

The problem that I, let me give you the, in a word, my own thinking on it, is the word we stand with, blackout.

We now do that when we have a southerner.

I really think you can't just, it would be a slap in the south not to try another southerner.

So I would say that our first requirement is a subject.

The second requirement, he must be a conservative subject.

I don't care whether he's an Democrat or Republican.

Third, within the definition of conservative, he must be, and I'm going to put it frequently, against busting and against forced housing integration.

Beyond that, he can do what he pleases.

He can screw around on Pentagon papers, etc.

But basically what I would like is another black one.

A black one or a burglar.

Now, Paul fits all those things.

And he's conservative, but yet he's not considered to be a racist.

He's a young old guy.

The man must be, I would hope, between 50 and 55, or between 40 and 55.

We put two 61-year-old men on there, and it's too many.

Unlikely to get a guy conservative for 20 years.

Now, what I had, and I'm on par, and if this is out, I would never get him out and get another name.

Is it you, Eric?

Maybe, if you feel I should participate, I would talk to Walt and say, now, look here.

First, I have said to the American Bar that with regard to Supreme Court Appointments, we cannot give them an absolute veto power as a Supreme Court Appointment.

Second, with regard to Supreme Court Appointments, they are a different order of magnitude than Trout Circuit Court, District Courts, and the rest, because they involve high policy politics of it.

And that I believe that the American Bar, in its wisdom, should consider

should not rule out, or at least should consider, that 10 years on the Judiciary Committee of either House or Senate is the equivalent of frankly presiding over the District Court in Abilene.

And I really think it is.

I think it's above that because you handle all of the great constitutional questions that have come along through the Congress during that period of time.

I thought Mark was talking without a laugh, but she said, I saw the, well, Paul Key's home, you know, and he, so I saw the middle division and I had to catch the part, you know, they had her as a, and she looked nice and was just, and Paul was, was lying to her, you know, about what I, when he said, what do you think the judges should retire?

She said, well, before they get up in the morning.

Well, if you're old, nigger and so forth, I want you to know that my old Pat and I were deeply distressed to learn about your wife.

I didn't know that, actually, that achievement's there.

Yeah.

About four years.

Yeah, we, of course, I just kind of kept track of the family as well as I should have.

Right.

Well, I suppose under the circumstances, it's just well, you know, we have to never end this, but it's well when it's now over, because she must have had a terrible problem in that period of time.

Right, right.

Rose Hills, right.

Yes, yes, my mother and my father and two brothers.

Yeah, yeah, all of Rose Hills.

So, well, anyway, Chuck, we wish you well, and you express your two boys to our sympathies.

Okay.

Bye, Chuck.

Bye.

Thank you.

We already have folks coming in for this purpose.

Yeah.

During this, of course, like the announcement yesterday, to get at it and see if we can straighten it out.

Well, as far as...

to a certain extent that it has to be a judge or somebody that's practiced law.

Like, take Paul.

I'm not sure that I've seen his leadership meetings.

You know, it's a little silly subject and the rest.

But from every report I gave John, he's a standout guy with great character.

Great character, and he's extremely able.

Is he able?

I don't know.

And the legislature.

He talks about that so well, but I don't know.

Is he able?

Well, Mr. President, you know, when people get around here, they react a little differently than they do when they're around us.

Dick is great on the floor up there.

He's great in committees.

He's very good.

How old is he?

About 50 points, 40 and 41, just the right.

Do you think you can solve it under the terms of law?

I'll tell you, the way I think you've got to do it, Mr. Becker, and the way I agree with you, we should.

Oh, the third point I was going to mention, he's got to be a man who can confirm.

I don't want, we can't go down the road with another car spell or anything like that.

Now, I think that looking to that point, that Paul is a sinister confirmation.

I don't see how, you know, the club deal, in other words, if they can vote against state power confirmation.

Do you think so?

I don't believe so, except the, well, they signed another Southern Manifesto, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, which they could use as an issue if they wanted to.

I think they've had enough of it.

Now, let me put another ingredient in there.

I don't know whether Warren Berg, when he talked to you yesterday, mentioned it or not, but part of the gas is right on the point.

I didn't even know that he was sick.

No, I didn't know that he was sick.

And no, it's apparently... Well, they don't know, actually.

But he's having, because they moved him from one hospital to another yesterday, where they could get better tests.

But it's to the point where he has horrible pains in his head and back and so forth.

It could very well be.

I'm a little doctor, but, you know, they said, well, they think it's lumbago, and, you know, it shifts around.

It's against allergy, I guess.

uh yesterday afternoon but he was in such pain that he couldn't go to see him the doctor said he wouldn't be available before monday for warren to see him now uh if uh harlan who warren thinks is on the brink because

The last time Warren talked to John Harlan, Harlan said, now, come on over.

I want to pursue that conversation that we've been having.

And the conversation, of course, was how long you can stick anything.

So that we may have a double play here.

And of course, what you do in the northern spot might very well help what you do in the southern spot, and vice versa.

I just feel so strongly about that.

I mean, when I think of what the busing decision has done for this thing in the South, and I think of what it could do if they had a de facto busing, when it forced integration of housing, I just...

I just feel that, I just feel that the last thing we do, we've got to have exertion.

Now you ought to be going back on the commitments that you've made during your political campaign and your whole... Now can I ask you this?

Well this is just in your favor, and I'll go long shot.

Is there a woman?

Yet.

There'd be a hell of a many we could do.

I think...

There is no woman that's creditable with an amazement.

There's a cuddling, as you know, up in years that might be terrible.

It would be very hard for people to vote against women.

Well, that's the word.

But on the other hand, I think you might so disillusion that court at this particular time that you might have a rebellion.

All right, second point.

and hold your hat on this.

I don't think you need to go to New York for this.

Do you?

No.

Isn't New York represented already in the court?

I don't know why.

Well, you might consider Francis from the East.

Francis is a brand new person.

Jersey Marshall, of course, originally from New York.

or at least, I don't think there's any problems there.

It seems to me that they're going to California.

And the two names I want, one that you probably don't know, that you'd have to describe to Reagan, there's a hell of a lawyer out there.

This is a way the French sent, or we're declaring all of our judges working

He's the chairman of the Board of Regents.

He's 50 years old or so.

He would have passed the bar like Flynn would.

I don't believe so.

And he's conservative as hell.

He's a racist man.

Well, lawyers are lawyers.

Well, I have heard that he is.

I have heard that he's, uh, all of us served with him in the Board of Regents, and he said he was with the good guys.

But, uh, I don't know.

He has put his name in the back of his head.

He has reacted that way, Mr. President, in our dealings with him on the appointments with the bench and other appointments out there.

Uh, he has been acting for Reagan in these clearances and the discussions, and we've had quite a few of them.

He's been solidly in the rock.

Now, there's another guy whose name would surprise you totally, but who has the capability of doing the right thing in the court, and I don't suggest it because of this, but appears to be a racial background, and that's Wenger.

I think the Jewish element would be a great plus.

He is considered to be Jewish.

He is Jewish.

John said everybody considers him to be Jewish, but the main point that makes him a plus as far as I'm concerned is that he has a reputation of being liberal, but actually he's not.

Are you sure of that?

Well, the one thing that I do want you to do, though, in terms of, well, you don't have to do this with pot, but on the second appointment, I want you to have a specific talk with whatever man you consider.

And I have to have an absolute commitment for him on Muslim immigration.

I really have to.

Or I don't tell him.

We totally respect his right to do otherwise.

But if he believes otherwise, I will not appoint him in the court.

That's absolutely right.

Do you agree?

Completely.

I think we can have that kind of talk.

No question of Whitey this time.

But the price is our own.

This goes to their judicial philosophy.

Isn't that something you're entitled to?

To the thing that Whiteberger might be...

I think Cap, who's got a great mind, and is extremely able, I think Cap would drift off into that other spectrum.

I believe that, and it's more or less the next part.

Yeah, that's right.

And because of what he did up at the Federal Trade Commission.

Cap was really the one that started the expansion of all of their activities.

or whatever his name was, just picked it up and carried it on.

Capitalists really got underway up there in a proper reorganization that was expanding all those activities before the other fella got there.

He's, of course, the right age, and it isn't gonna hurt to have a Jew on the earth to eliminate the Jewish seed question and travel for it.

Warren Burger has

thinking about these things.

He's got a very interesting one.

And Curtis, I don't know about the political background, but he came up with a fellow by the name of Herschel Fry from Little Rock.

which, of course, is not necessarily the best state in the world.

And in Scotland, it's good.

Kirsch was 49 years old.

I've known him, worked with him for 25 years.

Never thought of him, actually.

He was the law partner of Pat Mahaffey, who is now on the 8th Circuit.

Blackman's great friend and great proponent.

He's taught federal procedure in the college, and he represented the city of Little Rock's Arkansas school board to argue the school cases in the Supreme Court, which signed, well, four leading school districts.

And, uh, way up in Ohio in the American Bar, uh, the right age, the burger keeps coming back to him.

I have to, you know, we go down the line to give the jug out to the angels.

Interesting part about this is that you get in the harlot seat.

How do you get in the harlot seat?

Can anybody actually do that?

You know, sure, because, uh, we had a flag on the court when we were, when we were talking about it.

I saw that.

Yeah.

Uh, that, that's the pop, uh,

If we can straighten that out for the bar, I think that would be an easy and quick confirmation that you should probably go that direction.

If we find that that doesn't fly, we've got a couple of other judges in Florida, by the way, that we have appointed to the circuit court.

from a certain court of appeals.

He was well qualified by the bar.

Came out of it as a practicing lawyer when we appointed him.

He checks out and do it on his opinions.

And he is 51, I believe.

You can't take my friend Dave down here.

He'd be great, but Dave is old.

And even Warren Burger has changed his thought on age of the court.

What he's seen is that, and Warren's a little uptight about this.

Yes, because here he has faced this term with all of these important cases that have been held up and held up and held up, and to lose two judges and the possibility that he keeps talking about Douglas and Marshall going

Well, what I've got, this isn't hella too good.

It's too good, that's correct, but Marshall is an unknown commodity.

There seems to be every indication of the malignancy there.

I'm thinking too, you know, it's an interesting thing, if two of these guys go, that would have a hella psychological effect on the others.

A fellow that's sick, a thinking sicker.

This is what Berger said about Hurl.

Hurl, get all the black flyers.

I don't know whether he'd do it, but really isn't the only man in the Black Sea.

You've got to be bombed and broken to be the best man.

Who knows?

Let's be thinking of that Black Sea, though, in case it comes up, because that's going to be one we've got to go to a lot.

There are some others around.

I think we ought to offer people.

He never did.

I don't believe he did.

He was a bigger man in the Senate than he would be in the court.

But he might be.

Ed Burke was...

a good attorney general.

Oh, yes.

He is a very good man, John.

He's basically a liberal.

It has to be.

But in terms of you talking to a man, he is one of the few of the blacks who really talks in an intelligent way.

Oh, he's quite intelligent.

I thought you were talking about whether he was good or at least mixed up with some boy down in the class.

Everybody's got to realize that.

You're right.

They all steal them.

Yep.

They just, they get born and they steal them.

Absolutely incredible.

I don't know why, you know, and how he sold them.

Let me start virtually on that same line.

We wanted a black on the parole board so that they'd have representation and never have one.

We looked all over and finally got a very highly qualified one.

Republican, black, from St. Louis, ran for Congress, had been district attorney in high-type, recommended by everybody in higher-flexion.

Here, over the Labor Day weekend, this guy is playing footsies with a rainmaker in connection with some of the people who are now on the pen.

And the fascinating part about that, while he was trying to make up his mind whether to meet

these uh fixers the fixing operation got somebody to it to imprisonate him and get the money out of the shakedown before he could make up his mind whether or not he'd go to meet them and yet we we have not been able to put a finger on him because he never went near him and talked to the fellow on the phone

You're putting him on the Military Court of Appeals.

That's pretty demanding.

Yeah, the judge.

He says, as soon as you respond, there's a good white judge from Michigan on the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals.

But outside of that, you have to go to the bar for the arson.

How many years are going on?

I'm glad he's a Democrat.

No, he's a Democrat, and I don't believe that... We ought to give it to a Republican black.

I think we better have him look that in the eye, and that's why... First... Now, this is all... You start talking about, quote, strict instructions, quote, you don't find very many of them in the black... Well, I know there's no way to...

But we just expect that...

Yes...

Do you know Bill Colton from Philadelphia?

Yes.

He's a fine man, but he's too old, isn't he?

Probably rather, yes.

I'll tell you one that impresses me very much is this guy that's ahead of me.

He's a blocker.

Bob Brown.

Very much a different Bob Brown.

Now, there is a fellow that I would think, of all the blacks that I have seen,

I mean, he's, that I think would be, I would not, I think you'd talk, I'd offer perhaps,

He's untainted.

But a fellow like Brown is quite young.

He's in his early 40s.

He's a decent fellow.

He's liberal.

Hell, he's out-defending me as a black candidate.

But I'd like me to keep him in mind for now.

Nobody can quarrel with him, can they, as being a legitimate black candidate.

He is a Republican, a legitimate black candidate.

He doesn't have to say it.

He doesn't have to write this law.

Sure, I haven't gone into the depths of it, but I've worked with him.

He's the one of all the people that I've seen around, blacks.

I think that he's just got more class.

You know, he just simply has class.

You know, he has class.

He is perfectly honest and straightforward, and he's a stand-up guy.

You know, he took a hell of a beating in Congress up there on that bill that we put up in connection with the use of courts instead of the...

and he stood up all through it.

But that's what the marshals see.

Now we're not gonna put two blacks in the courtroom, not right now.

We gotta save one for Muskie's vice president.

He's gotta have him now.

He had some statement in the paper in Muncie State.

He said he didn't, he meant only that it couldn't probably go up this year, maybe next year.

I don't know.

Of course, everybody knows what he said.

It was reassessingly incorrect.

And also everybody knows that it was not only stupid to say it, but it's wrong to say it.

You can't tell a Mongolian idiot that he can't ever be president, can you?

No, you can't do it.

No, it must be his interpretation of being the George Romney of 72.

You know, he pulled one just back at them at the governor's conference in

in that speech in there, in which he said that something had to be wrong with America in order to have an act.

And Alfred Wright said, ain't the whole country for those prisoners?

That's great.

And the governors, man, they've jumped all over.

You should think they would.

You remember one of those governors handed back Rockefeller, they said, they're up to the grace of God, go on.

And, uh, Rockefeller probably gets the sperm line killed, but he's on the right side of the issue.

He had to do it.

Don't you think so?

No question about it.

He's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's, uh,

Yeah, 100%.

That will help him in this case, not that he needs it this right now.

And then something that's been hiring in Iraq, a great liberal Republican, has to be the guy that had to go in and clean out a prison.

I'm glad it doesn't happen last summer before the election.

Oh, yes, that's right.

Because it would have been screwed up forever.

He'd have been in there, and they'd have been negotiating for two weeks.

He'd probably sent them all on a boat to Mount Deer.

Yeah, I believe.

I don't think he would have done anything better.

Coming back to this thing, I was thinking he would keep, take a very wide shot on Brown instead of him on Salvo.

Because I think that going to somebody like that, rather than one of the greater judges, and picking a young man is good.

Second, the Friday events appealing to me, a guy like that, sort of comes out of the blue.

And Arkansas is a bad place to have somebody bother Booker Mills a little.

No way it would be a pick-and-eat.

I think, though, that on top, that I just feel very strongly that he ought to have it.

And I wish we'd let Walsh know that I just think the Judiciary Committee, the Judiciary Committee, that I think the American bar has got to put it this way, that he's the overwhelming, and this is true, the overwhelming favorite of the Judiciary Committee, of the House and Senate.

The American bar will be far more trouble with the Judiciary Committee if,

The word gets around that the President didn't appoint him because he, they were clear, and I think it's true.

I do too.

I think it's true.

One of our problems with Ed Walsh's committee is that pot comes out of the Forest Circuit.

The fellow on Walsh's committee is a stranger from Baltimore who's a political Democrat who's caused us all sorts of trouble.

And, uh,

so that we've just got to find a way out, a way around that.

He's the one with the production test.

But we have, of course, a big gun here, which you're quite aware of.

I can do it regardless of what the American Guard does, and I don't want to.

And I think it's not good to do it, but I think Walsh has got to know that we're not going to give a veto card.

So you're really negotiating with them.

They don't want a veto card.

No, they don't.

But I think it's very, we wouldn't like for them to come in and testify against him.

We'd just like to say today that it would be very unfortunate if they were to oppose a man from the Judiciary Committee.

You know how plentiful those committees are, John.

You know better than I am.

When I was a constable, you know a guy gets in Judiciary, he thinks he's a hot shot.

Doesn't he?

They all fought for it.

As a matter of fact, I had to arbitrate the ones that went on this time around after the 70 elections.

Unfortunately, we got two good ones instead of the McClory's and Redsbacks and the rest of them that we've had up there.

But we're the collection completely under Nanny Sellers.

We got that boy out of Denver and Thong, Grady, Nebraska.

So the whole point was to pull the Thong and Charlie out of Thong.

And Thong Rowdy, you know.

Rather than some of the liberals that they were putting on.

You know, one thing that's a shame is that old Roman is so defined a judge of Roman Ruskin.

Should we move him back in here?

God damn, he'd be a good judge.

He would love to park, and I'd park, and produce the right opinion.

He loved it.

Oh, yes.

He made some spot-raised passes at me, you know, when we first got down here, about the Florida Spangler on the bike.

Yeah.

Right now, John is still always in his late sixties.

And of course he recommends it.

Yeah.

I think we've got, we already got the signals located.

The other thing, I think we should move fast.

I don't want to have a, I do not feel that we should have a buildup of people lining up in here on an appointment so that they're ready to dismantle the other thing.

And I think within a few days, when we're ready to go, we should send them, get the name over there.

When you've got the waltz coming down, I think whether it's Monday or Tuesday, but we're going to have a prayer session with him.

Do you have any feeling for this pickle?

For the court?

Okay.

That would be great.

He's smart and all that sort of thing, but he's been quite a conservative on constitutional construction.

I haven't checked it all out yet.

You remember how he was on the fighting hero, on the blessing too, on the school thing, you know.

So he worked with Len Jarman, as I recall.

I know he was an 18-year-old, because that's, yeah.

The one thing about him, yes, as I recall, the one thing I'm worried about is his attitude in criminal law.

We're checking that out for him.

We're checking out.

One of the advantages of Bickle is that he's a scholar.

He's young.

And everybody would say, well, we find him quite a scholar.

I like that.

I mean, you could put him in the Harlem scene.

Why don't you just take a check on that?

Incidentally, the amusing thing, Charlie Ryan should be out of the question for this thing.

Or is he out of the question?

Well, I...

So that's what he wants.

Does he?

He did mention it to me lately, which you know damn well he does.

I mean, the poor man has argued some more cases of murder than anybody.

And he holds that in hand in court and all the rest.

And he's, you know, just...

I'm not saying about Charlie's philosophy.

Neither am I.

And of course, if we go to the younger...

But Charlie's standing 62 and he's 39.

Well, that, that, if we go to the under element, that'll be the reason why your good friend Charlie didn't get it.

I know, uh, how old is Pickle, by the way, Donald?

He's forty-something.

I think it would be nice if you talked to Len about it in any event.

You might say, we were chatting, and I, and we've got to keep this in the post-its account, but how, what is it, what are Pickle's views?

I talked to Len yesterday about Judge Gold.

who was upstate New York in his 50s.

And what attracted me to him, other than the fact that he's been a fairly good judge, was that Nelson Morocco put his whole problem in Judge Goldman's hands on this Attica prison thing.

He, Morocco, had to get off the hook on this investigation business.

when the federal courts were beaten up on him there, so he got this Jewish judge up there, head of the Fourth Circuit, and allowed him to appoint the committee to investigate Abbott.

And I said, well, Nelson, do you know what you're doing?

You're just transferring this whole gambit over into somebody's hands to appoint this committee.

He said, I'm not worried about Golan.

He said, I'm worried about whether he's straight, conservative, et cetera, et cetera.

And I explained to him,

and some of the people upstate who were doing the work work.

But that's when I got into the conversation about Bickel.

And Bickel has been all right in the last,

Well, I want to make sure he's all right on the criminal law side.

Oh, yes.

Yes, I did.

He, well, it would seem to me that he's all right on the bus side.

He's damn well pretty close to come out on the criminal side.

I don't care where he is on the economy.

You know what I mean?

They could be a socialist.

That doesn't make any difference to me.

But a lot of Frankburgers, late years, were still a new dealer, but he was strict construction, right?

So a Frankburger title is fine, as far as I'm concerned.

I just want to be confident and sure though that on the criminal side of the busing issue, well basically those, you know, the ones, forced immigration, either housing or education, and on the criminal side, I just, I'm gonna have to mind consciously put a liberal on that court.

And I can't handle a lot.

I think they'll, we're not sure if they'll factor

I feel like it'd make Friday for somebody.

This is probably the same point of the, so that people would make a lot of pay with the liberals and so forth, I suppose, just looking it out.

What a great scholar and a young man, like a big one on the court on the other side.

There's not any particular votes in it for us that means New England

and that sort of thing.

I'm not sure.

I mean, it's another problem of the South, so what the hell on the border?

That's all right.

We've got votes there.

Actually, Mr. President, the more you look at this, the only votes on the Court do come from the South, because otherwise, hell, you put on a conservative fine.

That's great, but

At least with Minnesota or New York, it's more of a liability in the locality.

We had two in Minnesota, so we had another chance to carry it.

Right.

Yes, but we have made great points with the conservatives, with our opponents.

Oh, I agree with you on that.

What we've done in the court has only helped us in the South.

But I don't think there's anything we can do in the court now that's going to help us in the North.

I don't see it.

Unless you appoint Ronald Reagan or Nelson Robertson.

They don't have to, but it's not a big problem.

I got it.

I like the California field, and they did California functions.

It's a desperately important state.

I don't know if the functions make a hell of a lot of difference, though, to give me a statement.

I don't believe they do, unless you make sad ones.

You make good ones, you don't get very many.

Mark, the most important thing John's looking for is your religion, is the philosophy.

Just be sure that the philosophy is conservative and that I will find a couple of other conservatives of the liberal supreme, but that they do not stop their conversation.

Do you know Susan Fulton?

Do you know his philosophy?

No.

I don't really.

I know his wife very well.

She was married to him.

And he died while he was here as assistant secretary of the Air Force.

And she was a lovely person.

Very conservative.

I remember her, I remember her as a college, and I have heard that Smith is just conservative as rain, but I mean, it starts with the area where you never know unless they

philosophy through opinions or narrative articles, you never know because, you know, maybe he's doing it because he's just writing, writing some dollar in the morning.

And, but I heard that he's very concerned, but I'm going to have, I'll do a little check with Hall, who has sat with him and forwarded Regis, and he probably doesn't know him very well, a little besides himself.

And who knows them so easily, too.

That's another way to find out.

Very much so.

The philosophy comes out.

Find out what he is.

On Hoover, I thought what I would do is, I'm not sure.

I'm just asking to drop over, perhaps, next week or two weeks.

And I'm just talking to him alone.

The way I'm going to do it is to say,

I'm going to start off by just saying I'd like to know if this is a conversation that never took place unless we decide to do something.

That's as far as I'm concerned.

I've watched you as the director of the FBI a long time in office.

I'd like to have you say this is on the other hand.

While I think we're going to win the election this next November, we might lose it.

If we lose it, you will be asked to resign.

And if you are not asked, if you resign after the election, they'll say that you did it because you were going to be forced to anyway.

I said, we must not let that happen.

You must not leave the FBI on the request of the president or on the implied request of the president if it's in terms of the press.

And the way we can avoid that is for you to give an appointment now.

And let's do it in January.

Now, I think that's the approach.

That's not easy.

That's good.

He's ready to, Mr. President, you know, he talked to you about any time you were unwanted amount of people.

Yeah, he did.

All right.

I didn't think he had it.

Well, I, but I think he has appreciated it.

I don't know.

Hasn't he?

No, sir.

There's no question about it, and of course he knows that his organization has started, I won't say come apart, it seems, but it's beginning to develop.

Some of these fellows over there are under great strain and are beginning to lose their stability, like Bill Sullivan, who you probably recognize in the communist field.

And the other thing is that

Uh, Mr. President, I would believe that it might be appropriate to put into this, uh, uh, an honorary job of some type, like you did with, uh, you know, with, uh... Well, I, I think we ought to create some government.

And I mean, really, you mentioned more than that.

I'd say, I think we really need somebody to advise us on intelligence generally around the world.

That would be a good way to have somebody look over the goddamn CIA coordinating the intelligence around the world as the president's special advisor on that.

How would that be?

I think this would be great if you give them a car and a chauffeur and, you know, your models.

Maybe you could do that.

The other thing you could do, you do... Maybe there's more...

more of a greater need to make it better, sort of a special advisor on.

I don't know why.

Narcotics.

They won't go near the narcotics.

I mean, that's the FBI's job.

Well, if I put my use in cats and snakes in my house.

Because I agree with one man, and I'd say I want you to know, every time we discuss a matter involving

It's maybe his credentials are really better in terms of the internal situation rather than around the world.

Of course, he'd be interested in going around the world with the FBI.

I mean, see how he can go up to law.

Well, he won't travel, of course.

Well, you've got these law enforcement agencies all across the government.

Make him a special consultant to you on the domestic law enforcement.

Right.

Let him keep his office, keep some offices over in the bureau and so forth.

Right.

He's going to have his hands into that anyway.

He's got to be the sort of chairman, the entire chairman of the board of directors, in case they still give him an office.

you know, and have lunches and things like that.

But he will be a special consultant or advisor to you across the board, you know, on all of our support.

Basically, because you have things in it, turn it down a lot, but you've also got to treasure it.

Treasure it.

Very good.

All the rest of it.

At least that's a great thing to offer to him, because then he becomes, as you say, a retired chairman of the board who looks for us the whole scene instead of just one bureau that he

would you have you decided on Patrick and would you mention him at the time?

Well, I thought that the

I hadn't even thought about the damn thing you said.

They said that, uh, you know, earlier when I was apparently talking to you, you, you think Pat Gray is a good man.

He's an excellent man.

But Hoover think he would be.

Yeah, because he's Hoover's type.

Hoover gets along with him.

Oh, you get a straight arrow, top knee, top right.

That's just dogmatic as Hoover can.

Well, do you think that, uh, do you think that...

I can mention it to Hoover.

Could Hoover slap it down?

I don't know.

Should I mention it as a major company?

I don't think he ever asked us if I should have taken it.

I don't know.

I'm saying that part of the scenario would be to get Pendray over there to get him to the number two spot until Hoover's retirement in January, so that he can start putting

stop on some of the slide that's over there.

In other words, the pad is over there, and the number's in the slot.

Assumably for his... Hoover doesn't have a hair current that he wants to put on the job, does he?

I don't believe so.

Because he's most of them around, so... Well, he's shooting around the country.

He might not want to put that on the job.

Hoover doesn't get along with any of the issues that he comes up with, I'm very sure.

The only alternative that I've come up with has to address the Supreme D. Deloach Act.

And you know the types of Deloach's, but it will seem to be yours.

Do you mean D. Deloach?

Do you mean mine?

Well, I was here, and he ain't got it.

Well, it's a piece of cake.

Deloach is a total politician.

That's a kind of hell of a good one.

We'll be listening to you, Senator.

Thank you.

I don't think anybody that wants to be the head of the FBI should have, Michael, because they're looking for the personal power.

Do you think he wants to?

Oh, no.

He told me his name yesterday afternoon.

And this is probably the third time they're afraid of him.

Well, I think the notion of his greatness, or his working with the administration, is the right thing to do.

Johnson, what do you know what he did about his appliance and so forth?

Unbutton his crutches.

Sure.

Why don't you do that for us?

I mean, we ought to be well sober, eh?

That's the point.

Let me give you a lot of order on that, but how do you think we ought to have it?

A lot of things we could do, you know, they could all be what I was seeing over basically the consultant on the basis of now telling us on a sensible purpose that this is what I want you to look into a few people were considering for the court.

How would that be?

What I mean is you're bringing them over here so that they may be able to stimulate speculation or do you think we should just set it up secretly so that they know that we have a secret meeting which I could easily do by setting it up over in my

Man Room.

I've done that.

You know, if I can, any means to bring it over there.

Would that be better?

I don't believe so.

I think so.

I don't think the court plan won't fly.

No, but they know you're supposed to do that.

The other thing is, but you know I can't bring Hoover in unless they're going to speculate about retirement.

Uh, Kurt.

Or me.

Oh, hell yes, I can.

What the hell, David Smith?

Vancouver has to come see me.

Well, he's been over here from the time track on with that great speculator.

I don't know how recently it's been.

No, but he hasn't been here for some time.

He's been busy.

That's the blue sheet, then, isn't it?

About time we had a talk.

Well, a little speculation on that side may not hurt, because it may help him with his decision.

He's doing really well.

I just invited him over for breakfast.

I think he would like it.

He talks all over the department over there about his close contacts.

The other day when I had my birthday, Martha had some of the people from the department out on the Sequoia.

He was writing memorandums about how he was going out on the sequoia down to the park and leaving the impression that he was going out with you.

He does that sort of thing.

I can't go to this.

What I was speculating next week on breakfast is that we don't recap.

We all work next week on it.

Let's see if, uh, if Hoover could, uh, come to breakfast at, uh, let's say 8.30.

Um, just say that I'd just like to

But I usually call the director and the secretary, you know.

See if Monday morning is free at 8.30.

If not, we can do it.

Do you think breakfast is better than tea?

Yes, I would think so, yeah.

Or we could do it...

Monday morning at 8.30 is the best.

Okay, bye.

and there are people around here, I know a lot of our

and all the other people and all that bullshit.

Hector Hoover is still, with all the attacks upon him, is like the second time to one of these people.

That's true, but there are some things coming up.

What is it?

Number one, they are doing, there is an anti-group on Princeton that has been doing a study and an investigation of the FBI, and obviously it's anti-Hoover.

And they have people on there like Burt Marshall,

John Moore and so forth that are coming out of the Justice Department.

You've got to put your ribs on it for going to have, I'm sure, a very devastating operation.

Number two is Sullivan that I mentioned.

It's either going to retire or be fired or whatever it is that Hoover's coming on.

And he's been keeping it broke on Hoover for all of the years.

Now this fellow Deloach, just to show you what that individual is, he has sat down and told me of all the things that the great J. Edgar Hoover has done, and a lot of them have not been above board.

I'm talking about Hoover lying in his pockets, not at the FBI, but on the outside, as he, you know, is.

No, such things as with his friend, the Richardsons down in Texas.

Hoover would send money down to Richards, whatever the hell their name was down there.

Sid Richards.

And they were holded on the theory that he was investing in one of these oil ventures.

And if the oil venture came out,

So his relationship with that Texas crowd has been very close, and I assume he's made some money.

I don't know why he never made any money.

Well, it's like most of us.

It's like most of us lawyers.

We're always looking at something else.

Wait a minute.

You take Johnson.

Johnson being that son of a bitch, you know, put his money and all that property around.

Even right at the present time, I was saying, you know, I put the San Clemente property, you know, and I, well, I don't have any money left in the capital.

You've got to buy some of that stuff around there.

Two, two, uh,

It could be bought now.

It's not that you'd say there's a sign to leave there.

But we saw that the loops were sailing along.

I mean, because having in mind the fact that eventually there would be a library someplace in that area, or at least a house will, of course, will probably be a, I don't know where it's all houses are, but that property's going to be worth a lot of money.

No question.

I just told the combine company, I said, no.

That guy that owns that horse farm, he's just made himself a pile of dough by the air fluid.

He won't stop.

We're trying to get both these and that one off there and buy some of that.

Well, he knows what he's doing.

Smart question.

I think that'd be great if you could put that library up there on that hill.

Yeah.

I told John I heard it.

I don't think Joe Connery will understand this, too.

I decided to delay the decision passed in the American election for a reason, and some

will say, well, that I'm doing it in order to enhance the value of the property they live on.

I'm not willing for that purpose at all.

I don't, because I had to attend several properties along the line there, you know.

But you're the reason they raised the question.

Oh, one question.

They'll raise a thousand questions.

But after the election.

After the election.

If you lose, then maybe they won't want to do it, but they might.

They might.

I would tend to be decent.

But if they don't, but if you win it,

Isn't that a beautiful place for us?

Absolutely.

He looks over everything and has proximity to the place.

Proximity to your place without being in your backyard.

And it's magnificent.

It'll be one of the greatest show places in the world.

Because of the physical sightings.

That's correct.

Physical sightings.

That's correct.

You compare it to the misery of Adelaide and Boston.

I mean...

Really, you've got to say that.

That is quite a pile, Johnson.

It's erected down there, isn't it?

That huge muscle there.

I'd only seen the pictures of it.

You weren't there that day.

No.

It looked like the Taj Mahal.

The clerk told us it was garbage.

It must have been eating himself alive.

Didn't respond.

Spent a goddamn day in the restaurant.

Goddamn, there are no Democrats defending Johnson.

Are there?

Lost them?

No, they're not taxing.

None of the, none of the women's back here.

On this Jewish thing, the main thing is to keep Henry the hell out of it.

He has got to be kept out of it because, uh, he and Roger's are going to get along in a second.

I don't want people to think we're doing it because of the Jew and the White House.

And he wouldn't even talk to Max Fisher.

That's the thing, that's why Fisher came to me about this.

But then I thought they'd understand it, because they're not the correct people to negotiate.

They can't sit there forever.

Mr. President, the stories that I get, whether they're correct or not, is it's just a question of how far you move back from the canal.

And of course, you know, that Burgess thing had them back on the other side of the mountains, which removed all of their

potential for defense, and that the canal interim settlement probably would have gone ahead if they hadn't got screwed up with an extended withdrawal as a staged operation for a sequential settlement of the problem.

So I think that that's probably still doable if somebody will look at it.

I'm not turning them in.

We, the Americans, through that Burgess paper, haven't taken the Egyptians too far down the road and too much benefit where they're not going to have to back up.

But that's the long and slow.

Bob tells me that Hardin has made the choice.

And I agree with him.

Well, then I won't need to see the other two because I haven't had a cat in a long time.

I won't need to.

Just a second.

Tell him not to wait then.

I want to be sure that the purpose is to get a cat in it for eating.

For Sandy's side of this case, I want to talk to Mark.

Have, uh, have they ever stepped in?

I've seen some of these.

Well, the main thing is, which he should have done, I'm not worried about anything.

They're a farmer.

Josh is going to get his man.

He has to have somebody who's a good politician.

That's why I come down pretty strong for Nunn.

I think none of it's a good, you know, he looks as if he just walked out through the North Island.

You know, he walks that way, he talks that way, you know, he always has to drink it out of his mouth, you know, and this and that.

Don't you think so?

I believe so, and I think he worked four or six well, and he created some.

He works Ohio well.

Well, no, I don't.

That's about it.

And, of course, I'm true to those other states, too.

You know, I have to talk to Bryce Harlow about this.

It's a question that he is not a farmer.

I said I was going to point at farmers.

We didn't speak to the farmers here.

But on the other hand, if you look at it, he is, he's not a farmer now, but he grew up on a farm.

They went to law school.

He's basically a farmer.

Well, he comes from a farm state.

He's a farm state.

So I recall when we discussed this the last time over, Professor John Connolly was there.

And John was very high on the concept of... Is that your recollection of it?

Yes, he was.

Good morning.

Hi, James.

How are you?

Yes, any questions you want to ask?

No, I...

I'm getting questions.

Have you conferred with the Attorney General?

I haven't announced that.

Yes, the President has been conferred with the Attorney General this morning.

What is it about?

Well, a number of matters.

Obviously, one of the questions is the Supreme Court problem.

I know that.

Sure.

Now, the speculation is really starting to center and pop.

Should I cool that or just let it go?

I have to pull it through Ron because it gets too far down the line.

Well, that's what I'm concerned about.

The American bars are a problem because he never crashed.

Right.

So I can begin to hang that all the way around.

I can simply say now that there is a slow area.

Why don't you just say you've just been talking to your general president.

The appointment is a bulletin question.

And there are several...

that we can say that there are approximately a half a dozen names under serious consideration.

You say there are five names when we pick a name like that, rather than about seven.

There are seven.

There are seven names under serious consideration.

The other thing is, will he be a southerner?

Will he be the best man, the best qualified?

You see, we may get two bounces.

Obviously, one of the two has got to be a southerner.

I think just leave it open.

Just the best qualified man.

Ron, one of them is you can't get too far down the line with a pop because if it doesn't fly, it's going to hurt.

Well, that's what I mean.

Is he a possibility?

Yeah, I would say he has to give his name.

Among those, there are seven names under consideration.

Mr. Pollack is one that is strongly recommended by a number of people in Congress.

Would you say that?

I just think I'll just start off the record.

Sure.

He's one of the names that's being mentioned, but off the record.

He wants to not say he's under consideration.

Well, I think it's well known.

Go ahead.

I want her to talk.

Yeah.

You said there are seven people, that there are seven names that are active, considering.

When will the decision be made?

I mean, all the decisions will be made soon.

Don't you believe so?

Well, no.

What we heard information is going to be made as soon as we can get the name, get it cleared.

We've got to get it out there and confirm.

We also want to stop the speculation on the other end.

Well, being very, why don't we say that we, unless this requires, it will be, it requires, this is a very, the president considers this a very important city.

His opponents are already considering, of course, the most important appointments he makes.

And consequently, he has not, first, he has not decided yet.

Second, he's going to take his time, the time necessary, to find the best thing possible for this appointment.

I can't tell you how soon it will be.

And under the scenario we have with the American Bar, we submit more than one name, you know, so we get this code.

And it doesn't go out in public when we submit it, but of course, when we start this, you will have a lot of speculation.

So we started loud in this and had this story this morning.

What's that?

For your guidance, for your guidance, Bob, of course, this is a very active consideration.

There is a very major problem with the American borrower, which John is going to try to work out.

He may not be able to because of the fact that he has to practice law.

If he doesn't work on it, he may still get it.

On the other hand, we have some other names that are also possibilities.

But we're going to have to do some heavy negotiating this next week.

But we are ready.

I would say, John, to try to get this name ready by

the following week, would you not say?

Uh, yes, Mr. President.

Two weeks.

You've got ten days.

Time enough to consider these steps as we go along.

Well, you consider them, then you tell us.

But I'll be, I'm going to be leaving, you know, so when's your architecture going?

I go to Detroit.

Detroit Thursday.

I'll be out of pocket for the rest of the week.

One of the non-figured guidance is that the Harlem situation is still very delicate and it may be that if this moves on that quick enough that we would have more moving room with the two than we would with them.

As soon as that's firm, I think we should go out with that program, too.

So, if that were to come about,

restructuring.

Right.

I hope.

I'll just keep it very loose.

Should I indicate you'll be giving this thought at Camp David too over the weekend?

I'll say that you conferred with the Attorney General this morning.

We'll be giving this matter thought at Camp David.

Right.

Okay.

Very good.

On the California situation, moving along now, they decided to go ahead with the letter and all that sort of thing.

Since I hadn't decided at that point, because I was still putting the pieces together and trying to get that right guy for the spot, and you're now talking about my hand and Gordon's and so forth, Reagan was trying to stop by here on his way back to Puerto Rico, but he had another problem, so he sent

a little more back here this kind of week, I believe.

And I will be going out there the first of the month to the State Convention so that we will have it all, I'm sure, in line by that.

And the time element, Mr. President, hasn't, in my opinion, hurt anything because they're getting closer and closer together from all factions without having to knock their heads together.

Except Bob, Bob's still driving the wall out there.

Ed Ryan, he was just talking about some of these things.

And he, of course, has been given the job by Reagan to be the economic steward out there to look for the

on companies.

He's working very well with Captain George Shultz.

And he was up at NASA presenting a plan for the space shuttle operation.

He found out that Bob was having a grieving situation, so he could go out and talk in California on a good Lancaster.

You know, being a fellow that's going to deliver it to California.

And this sort of thing just drives him up the wall.

I think we'll break the man line.

I don't know how the attorney brought it up.

He's quite unequivocal because he's considered very close to Bob.

And so he'd be in charge.

If we are in California, if we converse to him to not run for the Senate and to take this on full time and so forth, because that's what

And he's a guy that's got 100%.

And you've just got to quit worrying about him.

He'll win 100%.

He will.

Unless he gets the damn other people mad at him.

Yeah, but you've just got to quit dabbling around in the politics issue.

You're going to be much better working in other states.

Well, I'm going to call those folks in on the convention.

I'm in your name.

Tell them the politics are over in California.

I think you ought to talk to Bob and actually hear him say that.

As far as I'm concerned, the day after the elections in 72, we had Darcy actually in the Senate.

I know the person, he should be the man.

I absolutely remember that.

He was 10 running, but that was the man talking about, 10 running.

You know, if you do that, if you say that about Hitler, I'll put that line out.

He ought to understand that because Reagan would want, I'm sure, if I'm faster, he should put it out.

because I thought that this was the way to start the whole damn thing out there.

I wanted to talk to Mr. Devlin, he's the earth and coast and a little about the Pentagon Papers.

Do you have them in Spanish?

Sure.

But if Ron and his wife Nancy know that this thing has potential and they often give you that point, I'd like for you to tell them that.

I mean, I want to be sure that we don't undercut the ballerina, but if Ron Reagan wants to be ambassador, Steve will put no problem with the ballerina.

He's well aware of it.

He is, but the Wal-Mart property is so great that we'll have it for four years.

It's been the greatest thing in his life.

It has, and he keeps saying it every time I say it.

I'm going to encourage these volunteers to resign and come back and work on the campaign.

Well, that's what it's all about.

Will you then convey that to Mr. Reagan as quick as possible, that I consider this matter, and that just as soon as we, that I would like to have, I think it would be a great asset to be the ambassador for England, and that there are enormous problems coming up.

And it's the most prestigious ambassador in the world.

And we don't want to, and I want to have his commitment that he'll take it now, so that we don't discuss it with anybody else.

Yeah, we can do that.

You can say, I would probably like to, this is one country, you can say that we're already in a period, this is really a period, there are at least 10 people that will pay between a half a million to a million dollars for this project.

I don't know whether I've done my best there, because it hasn't been very good, whatever it was, but I will do that.

And you still... See, he feels that he should not have the letter if he goes down to the State Committee then.

Well, to your head, the operation of doing it, of course, we haven't gotten a lot of money, although a little more, I think, is coming back here this week, done one day.

We're going to, I don't know whether we'll have it all put together until the end of that October 1 meeting.

Fine.

Oh, good.

You can live on fire.

It's still getting around.

Well, the other thing we're trying to do, that's the other thing that's gone.

Oh, yes.

There's a night that happens as soon as possible, and I can't forget about these dinners.

In October.

Well, there are dinners for Ohio, for Illinois, for New York, for Pennsylvania.

All right, why don't you, why don't you, why don't you, why don't you, why don't you, in New Jersey,

I met with Bill Coe when I was in New Jersey for that fundraiser on Tuesday night, and they pointed out, inappropriately so, that they've got a race up there for the Assembly and the Senate, so they don't want to have it until after the election, and Kate agrees with it.

Well, the purpose of any of these meetings is not to raise money.

In Pennsylvania, I would have the same opinion.

I've talked to people up there.

We shouldn't do it.

We'll have this long street reason.

That's right.

Because they're choosing up sides there.

Nelson Rockwell and I were working on one in New York.

We were pretty well along until Africa came up, and it's in limbo.

Ohio is another situation where you have, going on there now, of course we're talking to Bliss daily, and he's available, going to be available.

He wants to wait until after they get through with the next run, they're making it to John Andrews out there, and making another run at the attack forces.

He wants to wait until that centers down so that you can pick out the proper people.

They're getting the word around in Ohio.

And they, I hope they're getting it around, but surprisingly enough, I've never heard anything back from TAP or anybody else who's never called up, so I guess it's actually yesterday.

So what I think we can do now that we've gotten these elections over, we'll have them over, is put down the dates and schedule them and go ahead and work from them, because we're not going to have any change after those elections from there forward.

Chuck, do you want to answer?

Did you raise that point with the president?

Did I?

The question, John, makes a point, or I guess it was your suggestion, or it was the committee that you endorsed, that instead of doing a reception in New York and then going to Chicago and doing a closed circuit dinner, that you do two speeches, the same speech twice.

Once on closed circuit for the East at their time, John, and once...

closed circuit in the Midwest and West for their time.

It would be much better.

We could demodulate the two speeches.

It would be much better as far as the detail.

It would be much better because those closed circuits are utter disasters in the Western times.

Or in the Eastern times, depending upon where you're at.

Either the people in the East are dead drunk at midnight listening to it when it's done at the West, or the people in the West aren't drunk enough to stand at that time.

I'd say to people, I'd like them to find out their office.

John, I've been in the West, and I had to speak there once.

And the poster comes on at 6 o'clock.

So all these people were just arriving, you know, and the women got their hair fixed and all that sort of thing, and they got in.

And then the rest of the evening, it's a dud.

Well, it would also give you a much better bang in New York if you gave a speech in New York than if you just did a reception and said, right, go ahead and get a hell of a man.

and his speech has to cover the whole eastern time zone.

He said the whole eastern seaboard, whatever he's got.

But why can't they have it?

It doesn't cost them more to do it.

No, no, no.

It may cost less because you have the line charge.

I cannot go to Chicago.

I'm there once.

You don't need to.

I don't have to read the goddamn thing anyway, so we'll just...

But you could have in your mind, basically, the same speech, the same... You may want to put a little different emphasis down there.

Midwest, Midwest, anyway.

Yeah, we may want to sell one, too.

Can we do that?

Sure.

You can do that.

We'll be right back.

Chuck, are you available to go on the spring course?

I've been giving him a lot of serious thought.

Because he knew you didn't call him.

I was going to send you an ass today.

I haven't had this rule, except that he gets it set in sheets.

And he figured I was just going to be in the picture with him, like the picture black that ran this morning.

And the only thing I'd...

I'd be a classic... You're a bunch of white students.

I'd be a classic army to replace a black man on the street.

I understand that the Cardwell's willing to come up and testify at your confirmation.

You found the president of the governor of Virginia.

He just called it dead.

And he thinks it would be a very good idea if you avoided Robertson from Virginia to the Supreme Court.

I suppose so.

And we'd be happy to be of any help if you could.

Royal isn't that smart.

You also said that if you needed any, if you had any concern about confirmation that Senators Byrd and Spong were ready to stand with the Governor assuring immediate confirmation and Senator Hruska had estimated that the confirmation would take somewhere between 30 seconds and a minute.

Well, that's the Governor of Virginia.

Thank you, Senator Hruska.

We will.

Home.

to people on the basis that the objection for a circuit court would not apply to the Supreme Court?

Well, their really better test, Bob, is the district court.

The district court is a tribal court.

You shouldn't put somebody in a tribal court.

But the circuit court, I don't think you really need somebody in the district court.

You can build a circuit court in your case if you know who.

There are very few, some very few.

And I do, John.

And it's a pretty perplexing thing about you as a lawyer.

The law doesn't require it.

Maybe that's John.

You're missing something there.

I'll put Reagan on there.

She's got to be a solid by the right.

All right.

He's up, isn't he?

Oh, no question about it.

All right, you, John.

Oh, fine.

I'm going to take things down a little bit.

You have to put the boy Berger out.

He's going to be the associate.

He's going to be the governor of the Supreme Court, haven't you?

Yeah.

How, let me ask you about Pickle.

Is Pickle, how liberal is he?

How conservative could he be?

I don't know.

How well do you know him?

I don't know him at all.

I've met him, I've read quite a bit of stuff that he's written, but I just don't know him well.

The fellow who knows him well around here is Garmin.

I know him well, John.

I've spent a lot of time with him.

Some of the stuff that he's done.

I don't think so.

He was right on busing.

Yes.

And he was right on...

He was right on housing.

On housing, too.

Well, the main thing I wonder whether he's right on is on criminal law.

Yeah, I have no feel for that.

I just haven't any idea where he is.

Well, John, you can check with Carmen just as an outside chance.

Well, of course.

I'm having a friend of yours review all of his...

writings and so forth.

So we've got a field park that way.

Also in that academic community, these guys are all doing the seminars and popping off on these theoretical questions.

You may find out what he is.

Pretty big on the First Amendment.

Kind of got to take his case.

The argument.

And make some oil on that so they can replace it for blood.

You know, he represented the times in his business.

Coming to the, uh, the, uh, because one of the things I am convinced of, that there are no points for us, except if something happens to Marshall, appointing anybody who has literal coloration, whatever it is, correct?

For that second, in terms of responsibilities to future generations, this court needs another liberal like a goddamn old man.

It's not going to have one.

I'm not lying here.

We have to.

We just got to.

We do have to point where we can.

And so we know where he'll stand anyway.

We do have to apply.

Your candidate, Smith, John, that congressman, how conservative is he?

I don't know.

I don't know any socialists.

His wife, I think, is, but it just may be that he's one of those typical corporation lawyers who would play whosoever he's in.

Except he was great as chief political guy in the whole...

and reorganization.

We've been working with him on the judges and other appointments out there, and he's been quite conservative on that, but that would be terrible.

He's been in the Harlan, I don't know, philosophically in the Harlan.

In the Harlan, it might be very, very appropriate to have on the floor one great corporation lawyer, which is what Harlan basically was, nothing else.

He's a man of women, he's been a fine judge, and there's always a good corporation lawyer.

I assume so.

I don't know anything about it as a lawyer.

Well, he's had a good corporate practice.

That firm?

That firm, sir, yes.

Of course, he'd be the big firm and not know anything, too.

No, I think he'd go ahead and superb academic background for whatever that's worth.

It's true.

I looked it up the last time, and I talked about it.

Did you?

He's a good politician.

He's done a hell of a good job, as I understand it, as Chairman of the Asian Space Fund and so forth, in possible situations.

So he knows how to... That's not a bad collaboration.

Remember when he reached the University of California?

What do you think, John?

Yeah, I don't know.

That's the credentials.

Somebody in the West who depends on his folks.

He's over 50.

He's out there.

I would guess that he's about 50 or 50.

That's my recollection.

He's 51, maybe two by now.

John, just looking far to the future, how do you like Bob Brown?

Are Bob Brown here?

Bob Brown at EEOC.

Real well.

I think John and I were talking.

I think he is, in terms of age, intelligence, character, the best that I have seen.

I think he's really quite a fellow.

Don't you think so?

I'm high on him.

He's been very loyal.

I don't think he's more loyal than most people.

I guess so.

I know he does.

He restrains himself on this whole season for this thing.

I know he does.

Well, for our position right down the line, all of them, Congress, Harris, Husson, everything is to keep an eye on them.

Because when that happens, we want to be able to move them.

The thing that concerns me about this third marshal is that he's held on to that.

He isn't worthy to be in the court.

He isn't like a first-class man who would have taken the court.

I was talking to him.

I said, I've got to be in the Senate.

But Brown...

He would be such an enormous creditor to the race, wouldn't he?

He would.

He'd be like Jackie Robinson with the vouchers.

He would not be a grandstander.

No.

He would not exploit it.

He's going to keep that as a black seat.

Hell yes.

That's the one that I think we have to do.

I think you've got to have one black seat in the courtroom by this time.

The choice, you know, you want to get the Jewish seat.

That's no problem.

The Jews aren't better than anyone.

And all the bureaucracy.

How do you know the one?

Sir?

How do you know that the one is Tom?

His name's O'Reilly or something.

What was his brother's name?

20 of the 21 Democrats.

I suppose if we put Brown on now, we could encourage Marshall to get off.

I think he's just hanging on there because he thinks that they won't get a black seat if he gets off.

He'd be in trouble.

You have a lot of ideas to talk to, actually.

Yes, very much so.

John has said that he's just heard of these meetings.

Yeah, he's been.

And I just can't go with the American bar on this idea you've got to practice law at the end of the court.

No.

Well, we have to just look at why.

For God's sake, how long did he have practiced where?

Well, Potter Stewart didn't practice but, what, two or three years, I guess.

Well, look at the shape of it, not the shape of it, but the record in Ohio, so to speak.

That's to affirm that he's been .

.

The Supreme Court's only got a different, it's a political, it's basically philosophical, political, legal scholar.

I've got to have somebody who, incidentally, did a practice of law, and then comes out and rules out under law, Professor Cranford would never have been on the court.

Right, John?

Sure.

Well, you would rule out some of the great ones.

Most of those fellows had one or two years in an office at the most.

Frank Brewer, I don't think everybody's going to know.

I think he was a deep thought.

He was keeping it hard.

That's right.

And he was a hell of a judge.

I think.

Don't you agree?

If you work hard at it, Mr. Martin, on the clerk's young program, Mr. Watson, for the record, I think that you don't have a reason.

I got a paper thing.

We've been talking a lot about it around.

At the time that it occurred, there was a great assumption that this would be very difficult for the Democrats, because it tore them apart.

The American chancellor came in and said he'd talk to the right-wing Democrat and the left-wing Democrat and go wide enough.

And Lou Harris, when he said this, he really ripped the Democrats up.

That is true, only that the issue is telling them they're right.

The Democrats' strategy, obviously, is to cool it.

Johnson doesn't say a goddamn word.

And look, he's a person of experience.

And so you allow what we've done here is to play this in such a way that you must be hungry.

and all the rest crawl off the war agent.

They don't allow it.

They aren't reminded of the fact that they could change their position on it.

They aren't reminded of the terrible Democratic record and so forth in this.

Now, how this is handled, how we get that issue kind of got made up front and center again is difficult.

If it goes to the Congress, John feels that, you know,

We could have controlled it.

I mean, it would have been good.

And in terms of keeping it in the court, it won't come out until after the election, which is too late to do us any good.

I mean, you know what I mean?

You just go to your digital process.

Is it Ellsberg, or Gelb, or something else?

The main thing about this is to keep it open for people who are running sore through a lot of these times, etc., etc., all the bad things.

But what I think we see at the present time is that we're at an impasse.

I think a lot of work is being done.

I mean, the FBI is investigating here.

We've got a lot of information on the rest.

But I think we may just be doing the two-man legalistic way.

Now, again, let's look at our opponents and look at ourselves.

It's in their interest to forget the National Papers, and they're crying desperately to forget them.

It's in our interest to have that be front and center.

There's only one thing we can see out here that we have to have in mind in our own vulnerability, and that is if Henry is deeply involved,

not from the standpoint of criminality, you know, but from the standpoint that virtually every one of these people that are involved in, excuse me, the papers and the publishing were either students of his or associates of his and so forth.

And in the event that

That's why Richardson is involved.

That is why a congressional hearing would be very different.

Are we talking about, Mr. President, the contents of the figures or the procrastination of the spreading of our own?

Well, the difficulty is, first let's talk about a congressional hearing.

The reason that we cannot allow or encourage a congressional hearing is that a congressional hearing starts down a smart concept.

You'll call Richardson.

Because Henry's so deeply involved.

And we can't allow that to happen.

Well, I get back to the point.

I'm not quite clear whether you're talking about the contents of the Pentagon Papers or the way they were leaked out of the government.

I don't think people care.

The main thing is to keep it stuck into the Democrats so that they squabble about it.

You see what I mean?

The original plan of the Senate, perhaps, was to have hearings into the origins of the Vietnam War based upon the revelations of the Pentagon Papers, the Diem coup, all the events that went up to it, the subsequent decisions that were made, the founding decisions, the Gulf attack.

That does not involve the issue of how the papers got out of the government, nor does it involve history, which is

with that aspect.

Well, but I see.

When you say that, then Henry says, well, wait until after we get our elections out of the way in Vietnam.

Forget it now.

The elections are over.

You see, that issue now, that's the reason I raised it.

The election issue is not an issue.

Because there's not, it's just going to be a wraparound of anything.

And it's only two weeks away.

It's only two weeks.

It's going to not happen.

This is not going to happen.

Of course, your statement in the press conference is, if the Democrats, if they were ready to start, I think that statement was a marvelous trick.

The complicity in the overture of the CM is what it brought to the end of the Christmas.

But they don't bring that up during this election.

They originally talked about, they originally asked for $250,000 in staff.

Then they cut that back to $100,000.

And Fulbright took the $100,000 and hired three staff members.

Well, and told them to do a staff study.

And had an executive committee of the foreign relations this weekend said, we don't really want to get into public hearings.

Now, just two months ago, he was, he and Mansfield were preaching

the biggest congressional expose ever of how we get into Vietnam.

They've turned that right off because the politics.

If you haven't applied to that, the politics are terribly destructive and a lot of guys who are presently advising Husky and the Democratic foreign policy establishment

just as bad as it was a while ago.

Well, we start the line that they scream like hell to have the papers delivered up there.

They were delivered up there.

Now, what are they doing with them?

No one's ready.

The difficulty with that tunnel is we've tried like hell to even get about one or two colonists to even get interested.

We have an ally in this, and that is Ellsberg, who still has quite a lot of visibility.

and who's very distressed at what's happening, because they are covering it up, and he's going around the country on television screaming and hollering about what he's doing, that they're not opening enough to public scrutiny.

See, that was his great sacrifice for the nation, and he's dying today.

That's right.

Now, there is one way to get high visibility to the whole circumstance again, and that would be to go after the newspaper men.

and then that would rehash the whole First Amendment thing.

Well, it is a very high visibility item, and we've still got that to use if you wish.

The only way to really open up the contents of the Pentagon Papers themselves

is with the assassination and some of those really juicy things that are highly attractive and where we can get some inside information and get a controversy going.

Was Big Men implicated?

Was John Paul Vann implicated?

Who is John Paul Vann?

Who are these shadowy figures?

What did Ava O'Hara forget about?

What was Lodge's role?

And there's a Sunday Supplement series in that that could be pretty juicy.

What about the guy we have?

He's here.

He's in place.

Yes, sir.

He's working for us.

And the only reason we have not done anything toward moving that stuff out is because of the election situation.

Now, if that's not an inhibition any longer, we can start peddling that stuff left and right and just let it all hit the fan.

Well, I have to drill out the hole until after October 3rd.

That's two weeks away.

If you're going to do anything, you've got to get going.

You've got to get ready to go.

Well, do we know for sure that they're not going to have any congressional hearings?

We're morally certain of that.

You mean they are not going to have congressional hearings?

Definitely.

Fulbright told the committee this week, let's let the 3-7 and we fire the 100,000 of them.

do a staff study, it probably will take them a year to do an adequate study.

And you know what that means.

Right, right.

Absolutely, that's why he did it.

And he sat in that executive session and just said, we'll take a year to let these scholars do their work, and then we'll have a staff study.

So you've got to get somebody out there who will blast it out.

You've got any senator that will do it.

You can't use Goldwater.

He's the one that would have the guts, but he's involved.

So he could be a beneficiary.

But Christ, somebody ought to start raising hell.

If the policy decision is to try to get those hearings started, yes, we can get people that will start every day sticking an eagle in some of the Republicans' eyes.

The two committees that were to be involved jointly, originally they made a decision to have joint hearings between the armed services and foreign militia.

And that's just been totally scuttled by the Democrats, obviously.

But we could get some of those fellows, John Tower, his unarmed services, would raise hell with it.

The minority who moved to hold their own hearings?

Yeah.

A rough, rough session.

Yeah, okay.

But they don't get rebelled on it.

Oh, worded.

None of that's scary for them.

That's dead.

But they can force... Well, apart from here, it's... We can make an issue of the suppression, as far as that's concerned.

Yeah.

Why not?

Yeah.

Some of the troops that fit this leaked out.

That forces the hand of the people on the hill.

If you really let the whole story of the coup out...

then Republicans could say on the Hill, my God, let's get all the facts in here.

And then you notice a damn many copies of these things that have floated all over the scene.

If you ever had an ability to cover anything, this is it.

What you really need to look at are some of the underlying cables and documents that John and Steve were studying that looked pretty good around the coup period.

Do you have a rundown as to

Which of those were in the possession of the Times and the Post?

Not for sure.

No.

We never have found out exactly what the Times has, you know.

Well, we're in court up there now making returns.

Yeah.

If that happens, well, then fine.

But, you know, it's powerful that she hadn't stole that stuff from a source different than the Ellsworth sources.

It's like this.

Yeah.

I think he probably got it from two sources.

But we still don't have a list.

Well, we ought to make sure that some of the stuff was someplace

I don't know more about it when we get to open up Ellsberg's warehouse.

Well, John, all you have to do to get this ball rolling is to get one of these old retired CIA agents like him to go on a series of articles in some friendly publication

as told to somebody.

And then that would immediately raise a controversy because Lodge and Harriman and everybody would have to come forward and deny it and then you'd get this big thing back and forth

This is something where you're not going to be able to calculate who's going to get hit by the shrapnel.

There's a lot of this stuff that splatters all over once you open this up.

Well, I agree with that, but if you can control whether he says this was done as a motivation of the Catholics or not, then we can at least control that.

Oh, I know Kennedy.

I know he'll equate it to all Catholics.

As I found out, it was a very good case.

Fortunately, we've gotten off that way.

Because of the way we wrote our pleadings and...

to follow along with the East Coast conspiracy and so forth.

I don't know, but Cardwell thought it up.

He was jumping up and down.

Now he's passing the word.

Go ahead, give it to him.

Give it up.

You know, that's pretty bad.

My hand is right under the barrack.

You want to be sure of that.

Right on the side there.

Remember, he used to be walking around the barracks.

Yeah.

They were denouncing Morgan when he lived in Cambridge.

But one time they were, apparently.

It was when they were at Cornell.

And they got a lot of people at Cornell who think they're just great people.

It seems to me the motivation for a hell of a lot of this stuff is sex.

You take this guy from the Bronx that ran for Congress up there.

He's got five kids and a wife in connection with the raid on the Camden Federal Office.

And I think he kept postponing it because he was shacked up with two of his young babes and he was afraid that once the job, the cable was stolen, he was going to lose it.

This guy's just been over there with us just reading these reports all the time.

I mean, all that dirty stuff.

I mentioned Kuning's theory just illustriously because he's, that's just...

Part of the story he weaves, but it's a pretty horrendous story.

It must seem to me, Chuck, that he's really discreditable.

That's, from what we're talking about, the best scenario we've had to start getting this stuff out.

The Republicans, they're jumping up and dancing.

Look at all this.

Now we should hold these here.

Democrats were right.

And at least you put the Democrats in a position where they don't want to cover Trump.

Hide it.

And this will keep acting up on what should have come out.

Well, now there's another front that we can begin to exploit that doesn't have to wait for the elections, and that's the whole Bay of Pigs business and the Cuban Missile Crisis era.

And we are starting now to review those documents to pick out the ones that should be floated out.

God, there's a ton of paper in this crazy thing, just the physical documents.

process of getting through.

We know where it is.

We've got a guy in place going through it.

But it's like swimming out the ocean.

It's a life's work.

And to get 100 people who are sufficiently attuned and loyal to know what they're looking at to go through this stuff is nearly impossible.

So it's a monumental task to get back into this old stuff.

One caveat there.

Let's not get into a missile cap question to come out of this.

Well, I'm not talking about the 60 missile.

Yeah, yeah, I understand.

I understand.

Getting back to the Pentagon thing, Henry's concern, obviously, is he knows that a lot of his name runs in and out of these files, too.

That's one.

The other concern, however, is more legitimate.

Probably is that just having discussion about the war and how we get in is not helpful.

Now that's on the one side.

On the other side,

It's very much to our interest to have our democratic friends be involved.

When you have a, when you have a man to deal with, you know, you're supposed to be a fine gentleman, the rest, fine maid, you know, coming up, call it this Nixon's war, show you how this has to be fought.

That's the problem we've got here.

We've got all these people who are involved in this.

And they're all, in one way or another, either involved in the assassination of the enemy, or they're involved in the support of the war, and after that, they're involved in sabotaging our air defense.

And we just don't have anybody worth a damn fighting on our side of it.

I mean, I just have to go to bed all the time myself.

Can we get somebody that could devote full time

project that's knowledgeable.

Yes, we do have, John.

And I've got Bud Krogh and Dave Young virtually full-time on this with three other people.

It's just an enormous job.

I appreciate it.

But they're on salvo as far as the

The last time I talked to him was just before he went to San Clemente.

which at which time it had turned out to be a referendum, but he hoped to get somebody back in.

It'd be fine.

Because if we get a go-ahead on this, they will start shoveling things out.

I'll tell you.

Well, we just can't let them get away with this.

That's the point.

That is their completion.

The Pentagon Papers are about their administration.

That is why it's to our interest to put the war in their administration.

There is a little controversy going on right now between Falk and Bundy over Bundy's taking the presidency of this foreign policy council or something like that, which has in it the seeds of this whole thing.

It seems to me could be exploited.

He's left.

The chance might be getting better.

And they're all working up to the plane in St. Louis today, Friday night.

So... John, what I was talking about is somebody that's on our side 100% is knowledgeable about foreign affairs but devotes full time to this thing and has a little bit of a dirty trickster thing.

David Young.

Well, Young is off the NSC staff and knows where all the bodies are buried in that group.

And, uh...

And it is, I think, as far as an understanding of what actually has gone on there, I think he's in possession of that.

So we're not short of some people like that.

Well, let's run it by in our own minds.

Well, you do have a controversy about the Democrats and so forth.

What does that do?

Well, on the negative side, it exposes the CIA.

And the inference will be drawn that that wasn't just the CIA and former administrations, but that that's sort of typical in the way they still operate.

And on the positive side, what it does is implicate a whole lot of Democratic figures, none of whom are candidates for office at the present time, but the Harrimans and the Bundys and the Rothschilds.

They are pretty damn long.

closely tied to candidates for office in various ways, right?

Bud Riggs is a Kennedy man.

Harriman is a Muskie man.

He's Muskie stuff, has been Muskie stuff for a long time.

I think he is sort of the prime prospect in this whole thing.

And you can call it Harriman's war, and you can do all kinds of things with this sort of stuff that we have, and really dump on Harriman.

What are the negatives?

You mean the negatives that are carried?

They're carryovers.

In other words, any inferences that are gone would be applied to the current situation.

As far as people are concerned, they don't separate one war from another, one administration from another.

It's just the idea that, skillfully handled, you could really throw it all back right in there.

When you take it back to the Kennedy administration,

That's right.

That might be our prime opponent, as I keep feeling.

And I think that that part of it might be moved at the right time in the Kennedy-Hawson sense for it.

Ruthless, heartless, bloody.

Kennedy-Hawson by four points.

I believe it.

Hawson.

But by bumbling into it,

Most people would totally agree with him about the Black Lives Matter.

But he knows that's a double standard.

You can agree with him, but you must say it.

That's what I think.

I think the reason you don't say it is not cynical either.

The reason you don't say it is that you've got to always hold up some idea in the same country.

I've got to say that anybody's got a chance, even an idiot, to be president.

Many of you.

Well, if we can get the green light, as of a certain date,

We can start positioning this guy for an interview.

We can put him in the hands of somebody, or decide whether he's the best guy.

As far as agency, yeah.

There are several of those others, you know.

I think looking at the Pentagon Papers that are at first, I think that the incident perhaps is the most, is the best ground to talk, because it involves

It involves her, who's Muskie's advisor, and it involves Henry.

And since it already had broken the Boston Globe, I mean, I think it just already did.

Now, I don't think Henry was around.

I mean, he may have written an article or something about that, but I hope he didn't.

But the hell with him.

If he did, that's too bad.

I didn't say any sign of it.

I mean, I've always been highly critical of him beyond my faith.

My record is clear.

Also, the press is highly...

It's very much afraid of that affair themselves.

I mean, even though Whistler asked the question that I answered on that, and he played up.

I mean, because he knows God damn well it's true.

Murder at the end triggered the whole business, because all the press was for the murder at the end.

But it did trigger the whole business.

And if you noticed how they just slipped over that quickly, especially with the liberal press in the old times, just repressing the repressive ZM regime.

That's right.

But the liberal press, believe me, don't want to have the Indiana incident brought up.

When we get to how we got into the war, there were two incidents that really brought us in.

One is the Laotian agreement.

which Aaron negotiated, the partition of Laos, and the second is the Dienes.

The Laos agreement opened up the Ho Chi Minh Trail to the Dienes and started the rear of the coups and so forth, and the instability which inevitably led to our involvement.

Now, on both of those, our opponents are terribly vulnerable.

Another thing about hitting the Dienes is that it allowed Johnson to be on our side on this.

You see, the Pentagon Papers were primarily played out by the liberal press, especially Don Johnson, not on Kennedy.

And frankly, there's not much in it for us to kick Johnson off.

Right?

There's a hell of a lot in it for us to kick the gun, which is really true.

And Johnson, with good reason, constantly points out what that M&E started warning me that Don Kennedy did.

And he's right.

He is totally right.

So I believe that now, I can hear Henry's arguments now.

I guess he would say, well, stir up the situation.

I'm not so sure it's going to make all that difference.

The election's over.

And now the question is, how do you get that story out?

Uh, great.

So.

What would you think about putting this good old drunk on television?

Who do you want him to fool?

I know ABC would love to get him.

And he's got, he's good for a half hour.

He's probably good for an hour.

Well, if they wanted one of those news movies, I think you'd have trouble selling it.

I wonder.

He would be juicy enough.

Somebody would put it on.

Well, you could get him if you were to leak.

Some more information is not going to happen.

We did.

And then he comes out and does it.

Or bring back General Harkins and quit and protest it.

He's living in Texas.

In Harkins, but because of that, sir.

Well, he went because of it.

I saw him when he was on the way home.

He opposed it violently, and then he's relieved.

Good for him.

And is available and would love to do a U.S. News interview with him.

At least, well, Harkins could be up there when they have him.

Sure.

The one thing, the only thing we need is some kind of, the reason I keep coming back to the Congress, is some kind of...

How many times have we read on the subject about all of these guys in my newsletters?

Now that's kind of the top one to the hash, really.

Unless you, or if we could get some information leaked out that hasn't been us.

The President made a pretty damn specific charge Thursday.

I thought that was an intruder.

Why doesn't he know?

Some of those people in the Senate pick up that thing and say, here, look what was said.

It's all in those documents that are in the committee.

I said, look.

How about a senator charging that the CIA is holding Khomeini under wraps and then are coming forward and say, no, that's contrary to our policy.

He's free to talk.

That would be very good.

And then, all of a sudden, he's available.

They'll release him right away.

Hold it up for a little while.

Yeah.

Oh, sure.

Why don't we crash around and make him, make him want it.

I think that'll be for you.

Yeah.

Shadowy figure, mystery man, what would you do with him?

How do I say?

What's on your order?

Oh, I think you could find it.

Goldwater?

Maybe somebody like Sandy over here, somebody like Brock.

Yeah.

Yeah, make a major speech.

Because they have opened, those who are ruthless, they've opened the battle.

Adam's the best one.

He's sort of a thias.

Talk to them.

A thias.

He's got all the others.

I don't think the attack would be very good.

Chris Cooney could also write a letter to two or three senators, complaining that he was whisked out of the city, paid money to shut up, and he's being mugged and kept as a prisoner.

But that's just how it's going to end up.

That's how it's going to end up.

Who's going to do it?

That is a problem at that time.

If we owe Allen nothing.

He owes us everything.

We cut him off.

And we're going to let the CIA take a living on this.

I just bothered you a bit, and I'm not going to hear that argument from anybody else.

This is the end, and it's got to get out.

And it's just got to get out.

Well, let's take the next two weeks to figure this out.

Well, get everything in place.

By way of foundation, obviously, we want everything that we can get out of the CIA before we break it off now.

So we'll turn our guys loose.

Let me say first that I want the story at the end of everything.

I want it by the end of next week.

That's an order.

And get it to me.

I personally want the whole story.

I intend to have it on the DMX.

I hope that the press conference will stay at home.

Just give the word and get it for us.

Yeah, we anticipate that the president's assertion may be questioned and therefore he wants the entire file.

That's right.

The entire file.

They said it has been questioned.

There's some CIA stuff on the Bay of Pigs apparently that they will

They will die first before they will give a sign or stat.

Well, it's also some other stuff, some internal stuff over there that we know about.

Getting to it is like that big black lock in Mecca, you know.

Well, we've got to get Walters in there.

If we could just get a friend in the hierarchy over there who would let us in.

Well, yeah, but he's...

He's a creature of the establishment there now.

He's leaving.

Where the hell can't he move in now, goddammit?

Christian's getting his life's dream out of us.

He's doing nothing for it.

He's for reasons why we can't do things.

Well, maybe we ought to call Homer and say we've found some reasons why we can't do some things, too.

Well, I think the main thing is to speed up the Walters thing.

Now, Henry figures he needs Walters for various things, but if he doesn't now, I mean, there's not much that can be accomplished for somebody else.

Walters will play with you, if he gets it.

I consider it a top priority if I want the D.N.

story.

Alright, also, on the Bay of Pigs thing, I want to order to do a question to Helms and Kushner, that for my purpose, it's not for public release, I have to have the Bay of Pigs story.

Now, that's an order, and I expect it in one week, or I want his resignation on my desk.

But it was coldly as that.

I don't think that's nearly as sexy.

And the Cuban Missile Crisis right there.

The only part of that event is where we gave away money.

Well, the Cuban Missile Crisis was so badly handled that everybody knows, or at least I've got to face it, it's something else again.

It's an old baller all the way down.

I just got to know my son, who's...

I screwed around long enough.

I told Henry, and he has really dropped the ball to get me both of those, and it's funny.

Where's the bombing hole study?

I've got it.

It's in my

Is it complete?

No.

Well, if I walk through, it's not much missing, then.

Well, you sure about that?

What's missing is what can be done.

We have a capability to apparently have it finished.

All right, we want it finished, but we've got to get it back to finish so that we're ready to use that again.

These things you better get now, or you'll never get them later on.

You know, the closer you get to a lunch, the more these people will burn.

You know, well, that was an interesting anecdote that we ran across.

About the last month of the Johnson administration, Califano went over to the Department of Defense.

He cleaned out a lot of files.

And presumably this stuff went to Austin, but maybe not.

And so, of course, I'm checking out.

Hey, he was working for Califano at the time, but if he was, why, we may be able to pinpoint what some of those documents are.

And then there's a marvelous story about this triumvirate of Gelb and Halpern and the other guy.

No, it's his name I got mixed up.

Warnky.

Tell me, did you find that Nixon was or was not involved in this?

Not intimately.

He's been involved on the periphery, and I'm getting some citations, but it isn't critical.

It's just other people.

Warnky.

Yeah, well, he'll show up in this other show back in that other era.

But these three guys had stolen a lot of secret documents.

and they had them in their files.

And just before the Pentagon Papers business arose, they went to the archivist

down here in the archives, and they deposited all these documents in the archives under a contract with the archivist that no one would have access to them except these three guys.

And they're sitting down there in two cabinets in the archives.

Yeah, well, yeah.

And we're going to bust that.

I've had Kunz again, and he's going to do it.

Yeah.

Well, they take the rest of it all.

That's right.

Buzzard's going to send some guys over from the Pentagon to take pictures of him.

But talk about Edgar Allan Poe.

That's delicious, I think.

Stick the letter on the wall.

Those are the papers from Houston Post a year and a half ago sitting over there.

That's right.

Said they were there.

Said G.O.D.

thought the right thing.

Said it.

All of us.

We worked out a thing where a guy was supposed to go over and get it.

Nobody knew it.

Huh.

Yeah.

Henry's out there.

Henry and Annie.

That's right.

Houston was absolutely correct.

Correct about those guns.

Yes, we're wrong.

But he was still right on the substance.

So was Dick Allen on... On the man.

Oh, he's right.

So was Goldwater.

That's right, that's right.

Yeah, history's gonna put him down pretty well as one of the rightest people ever.

Yeah.

Yep.

Oh, yeah, when they were here.

Well, you're goddamn right, Chet Helmer.

Well, let me say that I am really, really distressed about the failure.

I put this request in two years ago, that I wanted to start on those three items, the bombing halt, the Bay of Pigs, the Yammer, Henry Stock, it's utterly failed on.

And I want you to tell Haiti today that they're out of it now.

Forget it.

But goddamn, I'm going to have those on my desk.

And I want a real, concise halt on those three.

Is that clear?

Yes, sir.

But I'd like, rather than to get the concise form, let us concise it for you after we get the raw material.

I don't want it done by Henry.

Yeah, well, or the CIA either.

I'd like to just get the bulk stuff over from the CIA, and we'll assemble it for you in proper order.

And don't tip them off.

Just get the wholesale.

Get the material.

You have to get the concise form.

You get an excuse not to do that.

That's right.

All the material has been on the vehicle.

You've got to have it on.

Don't worry about it.

With regard to the other, you can't say that, because we want it for public purposes.

Well, no, I think I can tell him that it isn't a question of crucifying the CIA at all.

It's just a matter of the president having positions here, and we're going to have the backup.

The only thing we need, which is in state, is the cable traffic.

Oh, of course, Jim.

I wanted that MC.

I hope it's, uh, whatever.

I'll bet it is.

Well, get it in defense, then.

There are back channels.

Get it...

I've got all the cable traffic in defense during the D.M.

crew.

Anthem State.

Just get it right over there.

Now that one's going to rip around too.

That'll leave you with some calm.

We're talking about an hour.

Yeah.

All right.

Just start right about right.

And that's that.

And he comes in.

He's not talking to you about this.

I don't want to discuss it.

I don't think it needs to.

It'll get to Henry from the departments or the agency, but I think what I'll do is just get these people programmed this weekend.

If he deceives, raise it to the question.

When it comes to the parks or agencies, I want to talk to John.

See what I mean?

At this point, we want to stay on.

We look out.

John, we wanted to say, you called Henry in.

He was going.

You wanted to discuss this with him.

That's right.

We're going to get the facts.

Well, now then, we're entitled to facts.

And John, this is, I consider, the highest priority, and I can't be son of a bitch to hand in any help on it.

All right.

Dick Allen, huge son of a shortness of any kind.

We're not even going to rob us without us.

Sophisticated people have got to work on this.

They've got to know something about it.

I mean, you're difficult, you see, but they keep crowding.

It's as awful an architect even if all is capable as he is.

And startling this field head, he won't know what he's reading.

Now, whatever Houston did, he's, of course, an untrustworthy fellow in many ways, but he does know what the hell they're doing.

So let's take a look at that.

Alan's got a brother that's apparently pretty good, too.

You've got to go to somebody that knows what he reads.

Where is that guy?

He works at Pete Peters.

Pete Peters, that's right.

And he's here.

You can use an eight-hour.

Yeah, I will.

Well, I'm going to throw him into the deal.

Because he'll have a great following.

Working with the program will be excellent.

He'll immediately understand the significance of that.

Well, we've got a couple of fellows under Crowe, Liddy and Hunt, who know what they're doing and have been around.

And so we can turn them into armadillos too.

Alan will have a real motive for doing this.

You're saying you're right.

Yep.

One of those guys got him.

He's going to get him, right?

I think it is.

He's working under a president.

The president.

They got me.

I'll get them.

The president.

He's good, isn't he?

Yeah, I'll ask him.

Don't get mad, get even.

That's fine.

He's on our side.

He brought in a, yesterday, a cartoon put up by the State Department.

A damn secret that was a takeover of an O-5 cartoon.

It was sent over to the State Department.

He's grabbed it.

A space takeover of an O-5 cartoon about the Japanese coming in.

Yeah, around here waiting to greet them.

A nasty side.

Typical establishment.

I can pick it up.

Just charging out together.

He's a tiger.

Well, let's get weekend to work, Chris.

Well, it's one of all the good, but I think now we're ready.

And I think the thing I've got to emphasize to all of you folks is remember, time's running out.

We've got, and I think just with the poor on the cold right now, you can't keep saying, well, we'll have an excuse next week.

Well, maybe there's going to be a summit or some goddamn thing.

You've got to forget it.

I want the building.

You're going to do it.

And I want for myself, in any event, I want to be able to develop the facts on it.

And I gotta be able to write about it if I want to at some point.

On these issues in which I deeply involve myself.

And I'll tell you,

I imagine one fellow that has great problems with all this, John Henry Jackson, because it's a matter of conviction.

He must really know that moving into this dove position is wrong.

He's got to know it.

And yet he has to do it, doesn't he?

In order to have any chance at all to have, I guess he's trying to sort of build a bridge back to his old liberal friends, is that what it is?

Well, he doesn't have very many liberal friends on that side.

And he just can't find some.

But in order to be a vice presidential candidate, he's got to be in the position of being against the other.

That'll be pretty challenging.

He could probably be a hawk on the fence in the war.

I think that's what we should be looking at at the moment.

He'd have to be a hawk on the fence to keep his labor contact.

In this isolated area, he could carve out and get off the floor.

It's not really a dove position.

He can try to play it both ways.

That's going to be one hell of a fight now.

We can talk about our vice presidential fight.

There's going to be worse.

Mills, Jackson, and everybody who didn't make the other seven countries the only one who wouldn't want to run against them.

Vice president, anybody else would.

Except probably Teddy.

Teddy would never lose to number two, Woody.

That's what they said about Lyndon Johnson.

I know they did.

I think that Teddy is a little bit of a consensus.

That was Johnson's last hurrah, remember?

I agree, Jeff, that Wilton Mills would be the vice president.

Why?

Because of the...

He'd rather be secret.

Well, I bet he's the deal he's going to cut.

Well, they'll probably change his law.

They'll probably write it down so he can run for coal.

See?

I believe that he has.

Isn't that right?

Yeah.

I don't believe that he is going to be here as a spy, as a candidate, as anything.

Wilbur is on the south side.

He'd be great for us.

He looks like a southern politician.

That's right.

He wants to know that the president is a candidate.

I heard that Donald, that Neil is good.

Chris, after a diligent effort, recruited Warren Magnuson to be the chairman of his campaign committee.

Or to give this broad balance to the operations possible.

Could you grab your balance?

Yeah.

I'm as excited as you are about that.

He's letting himself get really mousetrapped into that.

Let's, uh, get some money on the Northwest Airlines.

Okay.

John, that's, uh, a patient here.

Our key allows him to go where he's, uh, I don't know what time it is.

Oh, I'll finish here in ten minutes.

Do you want to go speak with John now?

No, I'll catch him after, if he's available.

Are you talking about this Minori one?

No.

No, I haven't been here.

Oh, I don't know what I mean.

You want to talk about that, uh, Black Stands, uh, Black Stands business?

Yeah.

Yeah, mine, uh, you know, we have a black operation in the middle of this thing, which I think gives us more credibility.

The more you do, the more good it is.

Well, if you try that in about every place you do, you're going to think we've got a bunch of squeeze, but I think it's a good idea.

The, uh, you have to say Stands on

All the OEOs were there.

You know, we worked on those.

Uh, I, I think it's better if you really stood in the event, and I think there's a serious question.

If they don't clean it up, I'm not going to have any hesitation to be doing it.

Because I do not believe, John, that there's a hell of a lot of folks who...

Frankly, for us, I don't believe it's as much of a thing as maybe you and other people think.

And I know that they think that, well, we're not going to tax profits, and so here we're going to grow.

I'm not so sure.

I just have a feeling that the OEO stinks, and most people think it does.

Maybe we're borrowing trouble unnecessarily.

The problem's going to be that whatever we get down here is not going to be clear-cut.

It's not going to be one that you can say, gee, that's a really bad bill, or that's a really good bill.

You're going to be someplace in between, and it's going to be kind of a toss-up, I'm afraid.

Cui seems to think he can get most of the objectionable, budgetary, and social features out of the Senate bill.

Let's see about that.

All right.

And that remains to be seen.

The bad stuff, for instance, in a Senate bill requires that we keep everything in OEL, that we can't farm anything out to the departments as we've been doing.

They're trying to keep us from emasculating the damn thing.

And if that sort of stuff stays in there, we're going to get all four of these questions out.

Okay, well...

But I think that'll be out.

I got it.

If we kind of go around and start the horses all doing the damn thing.

Yeah, I can tell.

I was trying to kick that shit out.

Oh.

Well.

it's awfully it's awfully hard to stay with him that you know i'd love to get rid of it he just says a detail like this really oh dixon don't say that they really do mean

the other side, too.

With regard to the incident, with regard to the whole thing, you know, it's like, you look back, like the decision made on the eviction of the boat, maybe we have to.

I don't know.

I think on this, at this time, I'm not.

I think we've got to look carefully at the argument as well.

Let's not make the liberals mad.

I just didn't have Drew Pickles' name in there.

That discussion I don't want to play.

Oh, and any that didn't have total conservative traditions in the court of law.

It doesn't do good.

That is under the court of law of harm.

I would hope you would hold to that, even on the Thurgood Marshall seat, in the sense that, Senator Brown, I think if we're, I want to look into what he's been doing, how he's been ruling, but if he hasn't gotten that kind of credential, I'd hate to see it dilute this court.

in any way, even on the marshal seat.

That's right.

And you only go around on that track one time, because these fellows are all going to survive your second term.

This is one of the things that you can do.

that will affect the country that the damn Congress can't undo later.

And it's just about the only thing.

That's right.

Force levelings, all that.

The only thing I can see is Brown and all the others here.

Well, I made a note to do that, and I'll check and see what kind of speeches and decisions and other things he's been getting off philosophically.

But on OEO, it's very hard to disagree with a very simple philosophy that we ought to veto all the Great Society stuff, that we get a chance to veto and send a very strong signal, like you did on busing.

At the same time,

you're going to get a half-assed bill down there.

It isn't going to be pure.

And you're going to veto it, and you'll probably get overridden.

And that's everybody's best guess.

And then the question is, have you done a sufficiently symbolic thing

to win the hearts and minds of the conservatives without too much other damage, without overriding the concrete end.

Let me say, I think we have to do a hell of a lot to win the hearts and minds of the conservatives.

I mean, the court records aren't going to be bad in that respect, so that will be very important.

It's very important, because that's why I go around and use it.

Now, the pop-up country, for example, will be flawed.

By those, because he signed the southern segregation statement, you know.

Or whatever it was.

That's true, because if somebody walked back and got out, it would be funny.

I've heard it from some, but I don't want to be right through it too easily.

I'd like to have a hell of a lot of opposition from the liberals, wouldn't you?

You bet.

Otherwise, it's not good.

It's not good.

Well, then.

Of course, it's not good.

That's why.

But on OEO, I compare it to the alternative, which would be a State of the Union address in which you throw the gauntlet down to the Great Society, and you say, this has failed, this has failed, and this has failed, and the reason it failed is that the philosophy is lousy,

And it's easy to say, let's go the other way.

On a campaign issue, on a platform basis, rather than trying to make people understand what the hell this is, it's off the heart for them to understand.

Don't you feel kind of a foundation for it by vetoing it?

I mean, if you do, what it's been for us, you know, it's discredited.

Well, we have one thing about it, you know, that we...

Believe me, the key to this is that we have a Mexican in charge.

Yeah.

That's why I have some for us.

I understand you're good at Mexican.

So am I.

Totally.

I've got a name record.

Good record.

I'd love to see the tape on the Mexican.

Well, I think that treasure is going to be good in that gallon.

Dining all the dollar bills is good.

Don't you think that's going to be good?

Yeah.

All of that, by the way, was on every dollar bill.

I'm going to start calling it the face of it.

And the biggest thing I did was the bowling.

You know, I was a woman's bowling champion.

She's from Santa Juana, Puerto Rico.

Oh, really?

She got no mention.

She brought me a cake and Puerto Rican rum.

The pictures were great, but they didn't say who she was.

They showed a picture.

They didn't ever tell who she was then.

that was spectacular television.

It really was.

Did they get both shots, one on the alley?

No.

They didn't show the alley on that.

I'm kind of opposed.

I watched CBS last night.

They didn't show the alley shot.

They told about it.

They told about it, but they showed the strike.

And that, you know, is a big problem.

You know, the thing that is impressing the voters about that, even professional voters, is if you ask, if you put a professional, well, these cars, these are the attitude champions.

And they did it, but they were putting him forward.

If you asked him to get up, he'd get forward.

Without warming up, no warming up.

And his strike in 102, there are not many that can do it.

Yeah, not many.

This fall, you know, they tried to get him to redo his thing.

And after I left, they wanted to get another picture of the pins going down.

And then he had to take five shots before he got distracted.

And he would have had spares among the others because he's a great fine bowler.

He gets out of his career with an easy spare.

But the...

So it was a lucky shot.

All the while, I'm fairly good at it.

I had more than my share each.

You got credit in the morning paper for that.

Score of 2, 380 of 2.

That's my best.

That's it.

And it's got that caliber.

Sure.

The boulders are long.

You say there's 50 million bowlers everywhere.

That's people who really bowl.

There must be at least another 50 million who had bowls and people bowled down, bowled on their vacations or something.

It's really, really tough.

Also, here's a story about middle America.

Do you ever see any of the society set of bowls?

The tennis set?

They're saying that the staff don't know that they're just trying to compete with the bulls and the fairies.

No, they don't bull.

So basically, the New American and lower-level Americans, it's not going to be fashionable at all, right?

That's right.

Well, I don't know who uses the White House bullying.

I mean, other than the president, who uses the bullying?

I don't know.

Uh, the cops.

The cops and the, uh, the file clerks.

And the file clerks are what they're doing in New York.

None of the, none of the presidential staff uses them.

I don't think any of the presidential staff knew it was available.

They've got that thing.

They've got the office.

They all try to use the tennis court.

Yeah.

We tried to take out the escort.

The elite here had a great view of the craft.

They tried to take out the pulley.

I mean, we wouldn't care at all.

But, you know, every factory, every plant has intramural bowing teams.

It's a working turf.

In other words, the leagues love it.

It's hard.

What I think, John, is such a top period in the history of society.

What I think, John, is that this whole conversation points out is a necessity for us working with Colson and his operations.

to thinking in total political terms from how people matter.

We saw the opposition unmasked, really.

Mansfield did say what he said, you know.

That was a true story.

Some of these aren't true, I understand, but this was true.

And the other thing is that Johnson, for example, why is it that Johnson didn't comment on the Pentagon papers?

very simply because he, as a loyal Democrat, of all these loyal Democrats, knows that it's like a knife in the groin, the Democratic Party.

And that's why he kept quiet.

And I'm sure Clifford and others, when he hates, say, look, you're the one who's going to help Nixon with this.

They do that.

And we've allowed it.

We're so naive, and partly because of Henry's situation, I must say, that we have allowed it.

That issue is starting to dribble away, but we must do it.

We've got to remember that they're going to play every dirty damn thing they can.

That's why, for example, in the internal rhythm, we can't fool around.

Everything that we can.

Those guys that have come down, when I think of them, they've investigated every friend we've got.

And our people are.

Cole Lewis, Raposo, John Wayne, and Billy Durant.

All of them.

I've met Billy Durant in the last, and Conley was even the minister, under intensive, vicious investigation.

Now, God damn it.

That is no accident.

The bureaucracy throughout this government is disloyal.

We've got to understand that.

The bureaucracy in John Mitchell's Justice Department is disloyal.

We've got to understand that.

Having said that, of course, I generalize.

Most of them are.

And now and then you'll find some that aren't.

But you've just got to assume.

If you get into a castanet, I remember in 60, they cut my balls off.

The bureaucracy.

We had a hell of a time.

Even when there was a reasonable chance of it.

Now this time, the fact that we're here, the fact that they know that I'll play, all the bishops came afterwards or assumed that I will,

may be a military concern.

But on the other hand, it may scare the Jesus out of them.

I think they're going to cut all out of the issue down here.

We've just done a tabulation of leaks.

The frequency of leaks in the last six months has gone up geometrically over the gap.

Just on the national security side, which is the only thing that the CIA tabulates.

Well, now he does.

Six months ago, the frequency was way lower.

And we'll keep a running tab on it, sir.

But they didn't count.

They didn't count on us.

Even before they came out, it was going up dramatically.

And the snakes in the woodwork are much busier than they have been in the past.

We have a problem.

How about Rogers?

Rogers gave a clean bill of health the other day on their contacts with the press.

Said that it wasn't his policy to discourage

free and open contact with the press.

There wasn't anybody in the State Department that was subject to criticism for this and so on and so forth.

Well, he really screwed us good because we were, you know, on the trail with these guys that had been talking to Peter and Schultz and so on.

And that turned off all the help we were getting out of the security office at the State Department.

And, uh,

Yeah, very, very certain.

No, there is a history of the light detector.

Yeah, the holograms, they jumped him on that, you know.

That's right.

Well, he's been in a sense, he said the light detector test showed that everybody was clean and it's not nice.

Yeah.

Well, I hope that if they ever ask me, I'm not going to give them a clean level.

I'm not going to do it.

I'm going to say yes.

There are various tangents in bureaucracy.

We're going to do everything we can to stop it.

And that's why we don't have Biden.

And there's empirical evidence to prove it.

Just look at the New York Times three times a week.

Why the hell do they think we did time the way we did five years ago?

Why are we going to do something else if we do something else in another?

They need to do it because they've got to do it.

They say, why don't we insult them?

We don't insult them because they'll leave.

And, boy, if they ever ask me, I'm going to say so.

I wonder if it is well to say that sometimes publicly.

I wonder if it isn't well to take them on by their strong.

I mean, isn't that a pretty good enemy, may I ask?

Isn't the bureaucracy a pretty good enemy?

Ziegler's statement about HEWN that heads would roll.

Or maybe that was your statement, but he didn't particularly put it out there.

It had a salutary effect on ATW.

Oh, God, it shocked some of them, and they crashed, and they moaned, and all that.

But believe me, it really got people in line.

It did.

Yes, sir.

For a little while, but now they're running on a great decent presentation.

Well, yeah, but the fact is...

The fact is, it got us over a very hard period.

That's right.

At the critical moment.

Yes, sir.

That's exactly the reason that I meant it.

Why you got them, Captain?

Except for Connelly.

Well, they've got to live with it.

I know.

Including at the top.

That's a problem.

He's got to raise two top men.

You've got two snakes in it.

Walker and the little snake.

It's a whole landslide on the other hand.

And they caught him somewhat shaking with the bread.

Of course, he's so busy doing other things, and I can't manage.

That's the problem with all the Kevinos as well.

The problem with all of them is that they have guns.

Connelly's got a job.

We're going to call him the president of Connelly.

The idea is that each of those guys have either a super administrative assistant or his undersecretary, who is going to be able to have him win anything back, blindly and totally.

Client, he says, talk to me.

Yeah.

Well, by the way, listen, make it back to me.

I used to go to one of these sites.

You had a problem with this?

Client, he's...

He knows his place, and his place is to be Mitchell's man.

And he's your man, but he's Mitchell's man.

His line to you is Mitchell's.

He's up with Walker.

Sure.

Now he's trying to make friends with the White House.

He's got a great campaign on.

There's a problem.

Maybe you can cut me open, too.

Well, it's one of two things.

That's one of them.

One possibility.

Well, we've got to remember that Colin is a great author.

He is.

I mean, he's the only one.

I saw that he stepped up and did something.

He does a hell of a job.

If you end the part 180 degrees wrong all the time, it's going to be worth that.

He just goes to school.

Inspiration.

I think you're going to have to get, uh, get that kept.

Maybe it's hopeless, except for Connor, who the hell else is there?

Maybe he's a loser, who's got balls to do it.

I mean, probably won't be the best.

See, right now, that'll get us in one of those.

If you can hammer him into a lot of cash, maybe he'll make a new search for cash.

You've got to say something exciting.

Fletcher went out on the attack on that.

I suspect some of these cabinet officers are a little gun-shy about stepping out now.

They don't want to say the wrong thing, and they don't feel free to say something without our giving them the green light.

Yeah, well, it's not the green light.

You give them the green light, and you give them a kick in the ass, and they still don't do it.

We've got a couple of things going this week.

Let's see if they work.

Maybe...

You know, the week that Connelly did it to me and Muskie on television, hit that Eminem line, you were in California, but three capitals were crawling, saying, you know, what would you like us to do?

I mean, that gave them just the opportunity.

We've got a couple this week that we want to maybe crawl in.

Well, that's one of the problems with what the Rockers are doing, what Larry did to let us start over there.

They won't attack.

We understand that.

But, frankly, shouldn't we use Rogers more in his public position?

He did well before the, apparently, very well before the allegiance.

Well, how about them and let's have you make that same legion speech all over America?

I hope the Israeli war doesn't break out too soon, but, you know, that's a little encouraging.

No, Scali worked with him

And we sent that material to him.

You know, with him, the constant problem is praise him, praise him, praise him.

And he'll tell people not to do it unless he makes us all we can.

I mean, naturally, he wants to help us too, but he's very, very sensitive to praise.

And he's also very sensitive because he's not popular with what he's doing.

And so you've got to get up there.

Now, look at it.

What the hell did he do?

He could get rid of being a former, as a former member of Congress, could start getting a little tough with Congress.

He won't do it.

If he were told to do that.

No.

Larry will argue, you know, Jeff will argue.

Yeah, now, all right, let's come to this.

Make this way exactly the way you want it.

Let's come down to the big questions.

We've talked a little about that.

John, I figured that I guess we need to make the best way at this point to handle him.

He's very impressed, Mr. President, with his last two speeches and with the fact that

He got a lot of praise at the governance conference.

And he, for many years, has been a national goal of the unity.

Now, I have urged him.

How much did he play at the United States?

He got more play than he's got done on anything he's done.

except pretty tough attacks.

Tell him to do it a couple more times and he won't get any closer.

Then you can turn him around.

Well, I'm trying something this week before the defense can please talk to him.

We've written this stuff.

You can't do this.

in which he calls the unity, but at the same time says, no more of this petty bitterness.

The thing with England is that he just got to avoid any rash rhetoric.

His tone should be the same.

It should be more in sorrow than in anger.

And no sort of Buchanisms, you know.

No terribly mean, cruel things.

Stay the hell off of that.

You know, if you're here to see the problem, there might as well be that mention of which, of course, should be done in the case, which we already know.

But the interesting thing was, one of the kids, my support was relatively low, but our opposition was high enough.

But that was just astronomical.

I mean, the difference.

Isn't that negative?

Yeah.

51%.

It's symbolic.

I doubt it.

I don't think it could be solved going in the regular way.

I think you'd have to try something very radical to try and solve it.

and see if it works.

What do you mean by that?

Oh, I mean a grandstand play for the youth and that element.

You mean the college campus tours?

Yep.

So we've been talking about it.

Courage, unity, you know, a lot.

Do you have a long gamble?

It's a gamble.

It's a gamble, but you're not playing with very much in the way of stakes.

In a sense that your base is so low that you haven't got much to lose.

He might.

He very well might.

Of course, he did that day with David Rocha with the four kids.

Yeah.

And it was just spectacular.

He really was good.

Well, see, my far-eyed idea is for him to go in residence on a campus.

And I have colloquies and so forth.

Yeah.

Who was going to make an additional?

I remember he was going to go out and do someone's newscast for a week while he was on vacation or some radio commentator or something.

Paul Hartman.

What does it call that?

Oh, I don't know exactly.

I don't know.

That was client.

But I think it was now the beneficiary was sort of feeling a moral good feeling.

Yeah, yeah.

Right now, he's in very bad with the governor.

So what is keeping him around particularly?

No, he's come back from the list of one of these things.

The trip was kind of a target of opportunity.

I just have a feeling that he's going to be a major victim of this primary campaign when things start to heat up.

He's got another trip coming up in a couple of weeks.

He's going to Iran.

He's going to reach Turkey.

Grace will be quite a thing.

Don't in the right way.

He can be an effective guy, knocking the critics down.

Maybe having built a little credibility on this human-y thing for the last three or four weeks, he can even do it more quickly.

Pretty solid still.

That's what the governors are saying.

He did a good job down here and all, but of course he'll go running off and hit somebody.

He can't be right back where he was.

And if he doesn't go right away, that's part of the constantly growing fear.

You know, my buddy was saying the other day, you should hold that job.

No, I haven't even read that one.

It's Great Desire.

It's an expression from a year or two years ago.

It used to be on the chorus.

I don't know why they put it on the chorus.

It'd be quite a confirmation hearing, wouldn't it?

What would happen?

Get through like recently?

I mean, through the Senate?

You think so?

Oh, absolutely.

Why not?

It's being confirmed to the Supreme Court.

Oh, I don't think the Senate should have turned down the Vice President.

Oh, God.

Look at who the Senate is and the opportunity they have to point out how stupid Richard Nixon was to accept this one as his Vice President.

They make themselves look very bad in the press.

Why?

They look great.

Most of the country doesn't like that.

How would you argue that he wouldn't have the qualifications to sit on the court?

Never tried to, sir.

Oh, yes.

Oh, yeah.

Sure.

Thank you.

I've never been on the bench.

Governor of the United States.

As a matter of fact, as I mentioned, you're talking to the lawyer.

Lay lawyer.

Right.

Eastlanders would be, of course, very cordial and very generous with him, but you have Bayh, and you have Ramond Dale, and you have Ralph Kennedy's army.

You see, but my point is that with Hainsworth and Kurzweil, they had reasons for their attack.

Without it, it would be solely political, and it would look like they were trying to invade.

I mean, if he wanted the appointment, and the president sent his name up, then to them to oppose it would simply be

I think you're on the right.

Look at the other side.

because they have the alliance with the press.

I was a likely part of the two bodies, a little faster on my feet than them.

But that was the difference.

I mean, not that he's a god damn good at it, but the trouble is, if he could only get across again, he must look as if he enjoys fighting the press.

You know, John, how I handle the bastards.

I know they're all bastards.

I dislike them much more than any of you can ever dream of disliking them.

It's just a predatory philosophy.

But I stand here and take that bullshit every time, and nobody ever knows it.

Correct?

And I did it for eight years as vice president, two years as a counselor, four years as a student.

I don't know how I ever kicked it, but that was the government.

You're not going to kick me now.

Your slice is an inside cut.

They, uh, suggest...

The sophisticates know they've been cut.

Oh, sure.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah.

I remember the 50s.

You handled the antagonists as much differently than I did.

I think it was, I think the confrontation was very extreme in the way that that was.

You did.

You were very troubled in the way that you handled it.

They're thinking, well, I've got to put it out.

And they talk about, hey, this is not what you're doing.

You know, there's a couple of things I think maybe, maybe might help us down here.

After sitting through that.

I have a feeling that there may be something going on really better than we think there now.

Part of the reason is that I know this is a natural record, trying to downgrade the figures.

Now that conference board for next year, another 9% growth, which 6% would be real.

You know, that, when I say very good, that's a very, very good year.

That was great.

That was pretty sweet.

The other point is, I know there's another one that's very good, and that's the one, this one.

Well, that has to mean something, doesn't it?

Absolutely.

I know this is hard to say, but there are two reasons.

Fantastic.

Now, that is fantastic.

Now, what in the name of God is that going to affect us?

Absolutely.

I know this is a controversy.

It's not a whole world thing for the first few years, even when they're having the chance over there.

They're very, and also, is that at all going to affect on America, on the balance?

Oh, I saw that, yeah.

It's just about to switch.

Let's go find Leonard Croft.

And I think the real thing that is going to hold us accountable during the U.S. Department of Health's ability to take the consumers of the year of this economy.

And it's going to help the way we can get this year down.

Look at the number.

We may not reach 1065, but we're going to come down that close to that.

We're already at 1054, if you based on the second quarter, but they just are going to revise the second quarter again.

And always upward.

Always on 1064, same thing, same thing.

It's up to you already.

All right, so that's 1056.

I don't have to argue about 1056 and 1065.

But don't you, I have an opinion of you, and I don't know if that's what you get out of psychological, like that.

You know, if you've got houses, you've got automobiles, you're going to get something that's attached to you.

It's actually, frankly, a physical thing, right?

But it's expanding.

I guess you have to keep up.

You don't need anything back to back.

You see, when the guard returns, they might find out how to run it.

This housing thing is being played as a sort of a phenomenon.

It's not being played as a result of the President's policies.

And I think that's something we could get out much better than we have.

Well, if you get in charge, you raise the president's policy.

Right.

The thing that I also think, I remember Senator Sanders said, that Romney is the best one that he really is, giving speeches about what he's done for us.

The greatest administration in history.

He predicts too many points.

He says they pop up the most of the time.

Well, there's a pent-up demand in this country.

Plus the fact that, for instance, in the city of Washington, 10,000 housing units go out of existence every year.

And that has to be replaced.

Sure, sure.

Landlords, deserts, landowners come in.

I don't know how to do this.

I come back to this in phase two and all the other things about it.

It can't do it all by itself.

Obviously, phase two can't, whatever you do in phase two, can't make the fundamental difference.

Phase two screws up.

The public sector inflation.

I think we're going to see an improvement in unemployment in a relatively short time.

Well, things are beginning to pick up.

Well, I sense it.

This public employment money that we sent out, we've got a lot of people at work already.

And there has not been a lag in that as in a typical program, just as we kept the last.

And so that took a lot of our money.

That's right.

Well, so you hit it.

The statistical adjustment came in July and August.

They've got to catch up with each other.

They couldn't.

Five hundred thousand new people in the lab.

Now they've got to balance it out.

We might get a bounce in the next couple months.

Somewhere they've got to give it back.

It has to come back to zero.

And reading this is definitely easy.

Did Moynihan do it for them?

Moynihan was the guy doing it for them.

So, uh, but their whole, their whole basis of doing it is different.

And, yeah, well, we're, we're subject to the whims of the, we're subject to the, to the projections of bureaucrats.

There's just no way to get around it.

Yeah, there was a piece in the Post this morning about a fellow in Michigan who says, they say Michigan's a depressed area, and he said, hell, that's just that eastern establishment that says that.

He says there's nothing wrong around here.

And...

I mean, in Michigan, basically, we have a cycle of depression.

They may get a hell of a lift out of this.

The UAW is certainly going to hire them.

Thank you.

I think one of them, they ought to come here to learn that they can do business with a hell of a lot less people.

That's one of them.

And any time the business down here does, it makes you more efficient, more profitable.

But I have a feeling that part of all of phase two and phase three is what you're concerned.

We may be coming, could be coming.

I think July was a strange expiration.

And I think it flattened out some.

I'm not sure it flattened out that much.

Dan Evans told me the other day, Boeing is going to start rehiring.

And he thinks they're bottomed out in the state of Washington, which is the dregs of the country.

And it's coming back strong.

Well, it'll be an interesting turn, Ben.

Thank you very much.

I just hope that...

I just want to see us make a deal with the Japanese or somebody on building that damn SSG.

You are?

We are?

We are following that, aren't we?

I think that would be a great thing.

Let's build it with another country.

Would you mind checking to see whether we can build the SSC with Japan in a cooperative deal?

That would be the greatest stroke we could ever have.

We're going to build the SSC with Japan.

Fair enough?

And that's one way we can do it.