Conversation 596-003

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All right, what's up, brother?

The dates are not pretty nice, are they?

It's gorgeous.

Hell of a lot better than last night.

Wasn't it awful?

It was on and on and on.

It was a waste of time.

But I had to do it.

We had to do it.

She said a nice person.

Worked her butt off.

I don't know where they came that goddamn thing and made it up.

She said it was the one that was fucking it.

Yeah.

She's still in there fighting and she needs some help.

She talks to me about it all the time.

That's correct.

We were talking to him about it last night a little bit.

Well, I think he has some ideas about how he can get at it.

Now, that's all there is to it.

He's a terrible manager, and just loses it all trying to build up the Kennedys, and they're hiring Kennedy people at every turn, and that's just goddamn wrong.

Well, I'm not going to support him anymore.

I'm not going to look down on him anymore.

This Blair is apparently bringing in somebody at $60,000 a year to do his work.

I think they can put the kibosh up mad and maybe get Blair out of there.

But I think Bob Palomar is the key to it, because he's been closer to it.

Well, I've got a couple of more ideas.

I have talked to Luke Powell this morning, early this morning.

He will do anything you ask him to.

He does character, but he's got a problem, which he's checking out, eyesight.

And it's an unusual disease that has a slow process of deterioration.

It doesn't bother him now.

He is checking with his doctor and will get back to me as soon as he can today.

He's had this ever since he was in the Air Force Reserve, so it's a very slow process.

Something that floats in the eyes that impairs his...

continued reading he said that he now of course works with the books and the briefs and everything else just a question of whether or not the doctor's judgment will be if he steps that up and accentuates the reading process as to whether it's going to impair his ability to perform he is the high type individual you know that would take these things into consideration no they wouldn't that uh

Just go for the honor and let the chip fall every night.

But he put it on the basis that anything that you would ask him to do, he would do.

Did you have to talk to him about it?

No, because we want to know what the... Is Paul up there with that meeting?

No, he was up there with some clients.

The election operation?

He said he'd be back to me as soon as he could today.

Then you'll call...

Then I will get in touch with Walsh and tell Walsh to provide the scenario.

Which would follow that.

He will emphasize again that now we're going to go over how we want to approve tomorrow.

Well, and we also want that woman of course to put all that together, but I think it might be better to say that the danger would be very bad.

Let me say that I can see what the enemy might have said, and I saw them.

In any event, they don't approve alone.

I just say this, sir.

I can keep it with me.

It's the stature and the rhythm of the journey.

I have to believe that that is the only thing that's surfaced in the press.

Here again, they'll seize on the fact that it's an intermediate court, that their opinions are not distinguished, and, you know, put the usual crap that you'd make a case out of.

Now, if they don't go, then there'll be a little more thinking.

It seems to me, Jonathan,

Not that Smith went by, but I would have come back then.

If we go to Powell, then I think we could go for what we want on the other button, you know what I mean?

And God damn it, they're going to say he's distinguished, aren't they, or are they not?

Powell, they've got to.

I mean, everybody in the country, of course, has been put before Blue Powell as the southern nominee.

Well, that's good.

And it seems to me that we gain this way quite coldly, unless we get the woman.

While we gain Smith and that good member of the court, we basically are putting two court lawyers on.

I think we ought to go back to your, if you think you should get by the bar, apparently got by for a certain career, you ought to go by our floor.

Now, here's the argument for it.

First, we will have made some effort to come.

It doesn't have to be here in any way as far as the state's concerned.

But we might as well take a cap, which would be good and nice.

the followers of the right age, right?

Yes, sir, that's right.

And was, did he get, did he get, kind of go back to this, when he was put up for the circuit court, what did he get, kind of a rating in the bar?

Just qualified.

Not qualified.

Not well qualified.

I was about to say, I think that we'll run into the problems there that we have with some of the rest of them.

He's not nationally known as one of the great jurors.

All right.

On the other hand, I think we could, I think if we put two that are just qualified, that's one problem.

But if we put one, Powell, and then let him take him around for three, four days.

I'm just thinking that if, then I think we can take the one, and I think we can take the other, but I don't think we have to take Powell.

And then just go to somebody else who's known this politically.

You see my point?

I would, I would, no, I don't believe they will do that.

I think that they will probably come out with this not opposed category.

How long does he need them for?

12, 14 years.

How about one year?

About a year.

Sure, of course.

the Second Court of Appeals.

Jesus Christ, I put them on too long.

You see what I'm getting at?

I don't see that Smith would get us anything in terms of politics.

I think Mulligan would, very frankly.

Only one that'll get you anything.

large chunk of politics versus the woman.

I agree.

I understand all that I'm talking about is only if they don't take the woman.

We ought to be ready with our second kicker.

And I didn't want you to limit it to Smith.

That's my point.

Matter of fact, do it.

Well, you can think about that.

What is it?

How does it feel to you now?

Would you not agree, or do you agree, that we could go to Baltimore, that you took, after all these replacements in New York?

We took, uh... How?

Well, I still think you'll get some flack from it on the lack of distinction business, and

uh the fact of the matter which i think we've recognized all along you're going to get some flack on the lack of distinction no matter who you put up there unless it's one of of the obvious you're probably not going to get any but you're going to get uh or one of these old distinguished nationally known people they're the only ones that fit in the category i think we must recognize that now you could uh

You'd probably get it if it were, go back to Charlie Breitel, a Jew from New York who's had a great record on the Court of Appeals.

I heard so far you'd get away with that.

It's a great distinction because he's Jewish, even though he's a conservative.

Oh, he's 62.

I don't think he's legal.

His record on the court doesn't show that.

His record has been anything but.

It's where they're

Maneuvering the newspapers and the liberal senators is kind of maneuvering you out of your choice of appointments.

It gets really down to that factor.

Yeah.

What are your reactions to what we ought to do about it?

Well, first, don't you feel that we're right in doing the Powell thing?

Yes.

I just have a good feeling about Powell some way.

I think he's so... You tell him, God damn it, for these blinds to stay on there.

You know, that's all I'm thinking.

Stay on there, Corey.

He's got to take a job of them.

There isn't just any fooling around.

Well, he holds a deep feeling about his ability to perform.

And I put it on the basis of, for Christ's sakes, if you can read now, that's the most important thing.

Because of the circumstance that the president's going through with this court.

Does he realize the circumstances?

Oh, yes.

That's the only reason he'd take it.

He doesn't.

Yes.

And sure, he's gone through this with the discussions with me and with other people, of course.

Berger.

Well, John, have you got anybody else besides a bright telephone?

What about that judge?

Toro?

Oh, Christ.

Is that it?

Damn, no, I'm not going to do that.

Genoux?

Genoux is not, in my opinion, Mr. President, reflective of your philosophy.

Forget it.

Well, there...

Here again, you have the age bracket.

There's Tyler in Mansfield in New York.

There's a judge on the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts, a broker, but hell, he's only been on the bench up there a year.

Harvard Law professor, everybody's ranting and raving about he's probably conservative in the criminal law, but what did he do in the other field?

You just can't tell.

B-R-A-U-C-H-E-R broker, I think they call it.

Well, you can't tell unless they've had this traditional history.

When you come down to it, what we're willing to take, I understand, because we don't get the... What we're willing to take, really, why not?

All of it.

All of it?

That's it.

Let me just give you the synopsis.

Here's Burke, who knows all these people, works with them and so forth.

This is his pitch that he made leading out the southern end of it.

In the Northeast, you will recall, I rate the Second Circuit potentials including Harold Tyler, who is a district judge and a Democrat.

Walter Mansfield, who we just appointed to the circuit court there.

Mansfield, I think, is a weak character.

He's 60 years old.

Tyler's in his middle 50s.

And probably Judge Mulligan and Judge Breitel.

Judges like Lombard and Friendly are 68 years old or older.

Now, this is the sort of thing.

And then there's Judge Paul Reardon, who was in the Supreme Court in Massachusetts, who's 65 or 66, and Judge Deneau, which is the one for me.

Any of these would strengthen the court.

Now, here's...

He got Mulligan on the list.

He got Mulligan on the list because he thinks Mulligan is a bright, common, able fellow.

But whether we can get the bar to agree with him on the ratings is a problem.

The question is whether you just want to take somebody, although he has been a dean, has still been on the bench a year or less, and elevate him to the highest court.

They will, of course.

For Christ's sake, something.

Elevate the deans to the highest court.

Yes, sir.

As a matter of fact, Parliament was on that circuit court for a very limited period of time.

But I'm trying to add the paucity of people that are available for the appointment of this court that will receive a claim.

Look, I'm not concerned about a claim.

Let me put it this way, I would have to sell over half, half a load of a claim.

God damn it, we don't have to appoint everyone.

Did I point out they didn't say burgers?

You didn't distinguish some of them, did they?

No.

We looked at the editorial.

Yes.

Black men seem distinguished.

Quite the contrary.

They weren't distinguished at all.

But you could justify them on the basis of their sitting on the circuit court for the period of years.

That's right.

So, basically, we're just not going to get clean people, John.

Not on the left.

On the left or the older ones.

That's actually the subject matter.

Now, they talk about people like Wright, for Christ's sakes, he's really a little blood winger, he's on his third marriage, and just all mixed up.

You wouldn't know what happened to this guy.

He could be another Douglas before you turn around.

Yeah, I see.

I didn't know that back then.

And as far as you're talking about Lee from Chicago or Kirkland from the law school in Chicago, those people, I just

They're not going to follow your philosophy.

They just wouldn't do it.

Is there any harm done to Willie?

I'm just thinking, you've got to move fast.

If they whack Willie down, I want to put the names up right away.

Would you think maybe you could put Willie down, Francho or Smitho at the same time?

He should come up with it.

Well, yes, well, the one question I want to ask you is, well, to answer your question, possibly we might because it's been so recently that they've lifted Mulligan's background, etc.

I'm inclined to think that the bar is just going to come through a not opposed business and you will have to take the charges of mediocrity.

So you intend to go with Smith?

If we don't...

If we don't get rid of him, I'm sorry.

That's over.

That's the issue.

Well, I think, Mr. President, it depends entirely where you want to come out.

If you want to come out without a controversy and with acceptance of your appointments, I think that you would accomplish that with a bright teller of Mansfield.

not lower than that in the hierarchy of their selections.

In other words, the question is how much acclaim do you want over these appointments, or how much flack do you want to take in getting who you want?

Well, we were cutting down on flack right away at this point, almost.

He's the blocker.

Yeah, but we've got him on the front end.

He's accepted and goes through, and then we've got the same fight all over again.

Second.

If Luke Powell's doctor tells him that he can't serve on that court, do you want me to pursue the Baker thing?

Yeah.

Let's go on.

Luke Powell will do it if he possibly can.

If he'll do it, he gets it.

The people like Berger and the rest of them, they're still talking about judges the age of Burton, for instance.

You know, they just look in the court as accommodating their current situation.

They don't look down the road to the future and, you know, it's up there someplace like that.

Incredible situation.

Why couldn't we take the moment of need?

It's an honest man's need.

He didn't get a lawsuit.

I'm certain that... You don't have the heart of law then, to the extent you have the other years ago that you did law, was there?

Yes, and yes, his law practice was, while he was dean, was rather spotty, needless to say, and tended more in the public field, doing

the Constitutional Convention for Rockefeller and some of the judicial special committees created by the legislature and so forth.

If you go to Smith, and as I would say that, he might come up with a call.

You never know.

You don't know if he's going to come up as well as some of the others, but, oh, I think he would.

You know, that's a bunch of damn snobs at the NBA probably saying he's going to come up.

From a metropolitan area like Los Angeles.

The problem I see with him is that then I can see that they're developing probably just to find a couple of corporate lawyers.

You see, they're getting that power loose.

They're just too kind, aren't they?

I don't know if they could make that stick.

The city the size of Richmond, they get into a wider range of things, being the leading law firm there.

And I have to tell you that his firm also has approved municipal bonds.

Oh, shit.

Bastards.

I still think more than... Well, they uncertainly decided I haven't got any other... any other candidates.

Foundations gravitate around the same people.

They come from different sources that they saw as the deans of the law schools, the elderly, members of the bar, and all the rest of it.

I couldn't be sure about CAP.

I wouldn't have a plan as either.

CAP's are very able.

brilliant individual.

Of course, he's half-Jewish, or at least his name is Jewish.

He has been in public life, which they seem to hang some criteria on.

He's from California.

We're not going to take him as Jewish.

Let me say, is there a way that we can get Smith willing to date her?

I mean, I wouldn't mind

I really don't know.

I think that they're getting themselves so screwed up and fouled up in these areas that I don't think they know what they're doing.

And they're having a harder, just about as hard time as we are.

Because as we look around, they realize that

Their same recommendations are not really viable with the age and the location.

We aren't going to go through this again.

I don't care.

It won't be able to provide a person.

I just think the best thing is to take our rats and they go testify.

But we know that we can almost predict what they will do.

So why put ourselves at the mercy of the damn thing in advance and make them have them get out all the names on the side of the country before we get out the positive side?

Well, this is coming from the press.

I know that they're digging it out.

The moment you start checking them through there, it gets out, John.

We can't go to the APA and start checking them.

And we both murdered him pretty well.

And that was a well-kept secret.

And that was a damn good way to handle it, wasn't it?

It certainly turned out that way.

It's fine.

It's more like that.

Hope you've got some judges coming up.

There are.

We've appointed some good ones along the way.

And we've got the right age groups.

We've tried to keep them as low as

Possible in the ancient Bible.

Think of Powell and Baker.

Fine.

If we dump the woman.

Yeah.

I'd like to put Baker in that.

Sure, I have a choice in Baker.

I'd put Baker and Mulligan in the other group and see what they come up with.

I mean, would that be useful enough?

Or he just might grieve.

I just think of the time limit here, too, that these backers are going to need to take.

Well, they have a time problem because they don't know Howard Baker's legal background and so forth.

And what I'm getting is, I think at the time, let's suppose that they come up with Baker and say, no, I'm following him.

We've got to go back to him on another one.

You know what I mean?

We'll be screwing around here at the end of the year.

I was thinking that...

Well, in a case of Merrick Becker, you might say the hell with him and go ahead and send his name up.

Assuming he's had a reasonable law practice.

Why don't you check that out for me?

See what kind of law practice he had, how reasonable it was, what he means to my soul.

In other words, go with Becker like you do on, like we did on...

And they let the bar do what they did, do their dandies.

Baker got confirmed just like that.

You know, that is one I'm sure of.

Because, first of all, Scott would work his ass off for him.

Get him the hell out of the Senate.

So would Griffin.

Griffin would work his tail off to get him out.

And in other words, Baker has good credentials with those folks, you know.

I mean, even though he's sort of running against Scott.

And he'd get all the senators.

Sort of a gutsy young man.

I see you've got a boy through three republicans.

He's kind of got a name.

Alan Neufeldt, how hard is that?

I think he may have done it, Judge.

You think he's that conservative?

Oh, Christ.

Yes.

Yeah, I think he is.

I think he would go with a very different thing like this.

I mean, he's, he isn't, isn't my, he's the greatest stand-up guy, but I think he's young.

coming from that off and so forth.

He's not going to be like a Douglas or a Black.

I don't believe so.

Howard is basically a Dierkson type of officer.

He'd come out of his office more often than Potter Stewart.

Oh, I'm sure of that.

More often than Potter Stewart.

Unless he gets some foible in some of these areas, which some of them do.

You know, Dan Weller, you know,

No, I think Baker would be good.

I'll tell you, that might be a thought.

If they turn the woman down, then we just throw up our hands and send Baker.

Check his law back.

Baker and Powell.

They'd have a hell of a job complaining about either one of them.

They'd never complain about Powell.

You mean the Senate?

Mr. President, I think Phil Mulligan would be a great judge on that court.

I think that you will be accused of another mediocrity because the guy hasn't got a track record.

other than dean of the law school.

You don't consider the Baker of the Union Senator to be a mediocrity?

I don't think they'll accuse a sitting senator of the United States as a mediocrity if Howard has some law practice.

Bird?

He did.

Well, he didn't have any law practice.

Right.

Well, he wasn't even admitted to the bar.

I don't know.

Well, I don't know.

Clark Kuykendall can make the run then.

Yeah.

Don't be worried about the Senate seat.

This is more important.

Let's just be categorical about that.

And also, we've got to think more about winning the Senate seat ourselves.

Pointing to Baker and then courting her is one damn bit...

I mean, it might be that the court may owe us more than having to run the tickets to Senator and have to fight the bus mission.

That's true.

And I also, and I probably have a Baker against Brock down there with the maneuvering for... Jealousy.

...postures in the political organization operation.

The Powell-Baker thing might, uh... Two Southerners.

That's good.

If they're looked upon as Southerners.

They're not.

They're both Tennessee border states, what the hell.

Would you say it might watch your service age?

It might have a bigger political impact than any other combination that you could put together.

Because of what?

Because of the Senate and Baker.

because of Lou Powell, outstanding president of the ABA, et cetera, and take care of the South and the border.

There's another thing that appeals to me about it.

I have started to play these people like when I'm ready to raise a bird, and they ask, well, what the hell is there we're blocking back out from?

And, you know, we play, we do play that in here, and I tell them, look, I really, I really raised a poor old man.

God damn, he's a good man.

All of them?

All of them.

The finest people I've ever met.

The strongest man who got the staff on board.

Anyway, they're not, they're not the other people.

But all of them, I said, God damn it, I want you to get that staff man and read them out.

I said, if I ever hear them see any more comments from the press, the White House staff, or White House press people, and this or that, I said, God damn it, I don't care who these judges are.

I said, they don't know who I have in mind.

So...

and pissed me off for it.

Just wrong.

We have enough trouble to press out any one of our jackasses in here.

There's been an awful lot of gains played with this thing out of this White House, because my heart people have been running them down, and I tell you, they're all of them alive.

Top of the White House.

Yeah.

And why they all have this used sighting complex, I don't know, but they just, they're scared the hell out of him, and they're always using him to program everything through his timeline.

Yeah.

Well, that's...

I'm afraid that Paul, they know, is going to be a claim.

It's got to be a claim.

I would believe that.

And the paper, they might.

Can we find out right now what the practice was?

Well, it's a type of practice and so forth that's pretty hard to get out of a Martindale puddle or something like that.

I was thinking of getting them down, sitting down with them, and go over it when I get back.

All right, do that.

Why don't you do it right away?

Say Howard, and I'll let you up here.

Cold turkey.

Please.

A million minutes.

Another million minutes.

Oh, so old.

I think it's very young.

I don't think he's...

I'm sorry.

Can you, within a minute, the Howard Baker stage?

Don't tell anybody you've been there.

And then just check the, check his, you've got one of those congressional records, recluses, and so forth.

I'll be back as well.

I'll see you right away.

I'll be back as well.

I don't think we should submit down to the bar.

Or would you?

I don't like to clear the mercy of the goddamn bar again.

And that'll lead out.

Or would you?

I don't know.

It depends on how we want to program our turndowns.

How hard do you want to figure it out?

Then I believe we ought to just send Baker out.

Just say, well, we did our best.

And maybe the thing to do is to send Baker and Powell up.

That's what I mean.

But without waiting for a bar clearance.

Yeah.

Excuse me, were you just calling me?

No.

But as I say, it's how you want to play the... Oh, he's not about Powell or Eager.

That's right.

We don't have to.

This is not.

Now you're talking.

See, this is not really a clearance process.

This is an advisory operation.

Why not send them up?

Now, we know that Paul will be cleared to the bar, and we'll send Baker and Paul up and send them up.

It literally gets turned down.

This is the point.

We need to move immediately.

Rather than you're having to go around in the lab and set a mark with all those types and that.

You know, you know who the hell's a PhD.

It's a bunch of, I mean, there's certainly some Jews.

And also, there are some Jews, but also, you know what they are.

Were you acting in the ADA?

I was, I was in a silence.

I couldn't go to the goddamn ADA.

They couldn't get me.

I never, I addressed them, but never.

The ADA is like all professional organizations.

It's an incestuous group.

Now, let's take good old Charlie Brown.

Charlie's a sweet guy.

He's a nice guy.

Are you talking to me, sir?

But Charlie is not an awful right at all.

But he's a joiner.

He's a joiner.

And he's a big man in the ADA.

So he's an expert petitioner.

I can tell you that I know in the firm we were in, John, I think 50 lawyers are smarter than Charlie Brown.

That's true.

No, I used the ADA.

There was a section in it on local government law, and I used it for all the lawyers around us.

It's 45.

It'll be 46 in November.

Or in November, 25.

And uh, he, excuse me, I forgot what you were calling your old man's phone, just went off.

No, I got it at his home.

Got his, uh, where did he go to law school?

University of Tennessee Law College.

Yeah.

He went to Tulane, he had the University of the South, and then to University of Tennessee Law College.

That would be 1949.

Come in, come in.

He was in the Navy 43 to 46, discharged in 46, and doesn't say when he practiced.

He was lucky to have sent him in 66, so it was 20 years from the time he got out of the Navy to the time.

When did he get out of law school?

He got out at night.

Right.

49.

That's not bad.

There's a lot that's going to happen in the Navy.

17 years of practice.

What did he do in the Marines and what's it indicate he's done?

If he got anything else, he doesn't say.

He doesn't.

Would that be what you're checking on?

Howard was in a firm in Knoxville, I know, because we used to work with him.

49 to 66 would be 17 years of practice.

It's not bad, except for some old hard things.

Getting back to the scenario, it really depends on how hard you want to play the turndowns.

If we've got turndowns, we could say to hell with them.

They wouldn't approve this woman.

because you'd use it for both purposes.

In other words, get off the hook with the woman.

And also the reason why you're not submitting the names to them again, because you just don't believe in their judgment.

I'm not going to have a record of putting them out of the way.

They'll turn her down, too.

But they're not considered crime.

I'm just not going to have somebody for it.

That's really what I'm getting down to.

by having them submitted and exposed and beaten around the press, God damn it, I'm gonna get it first.

Then they can go color in.

No, I think we, I think we're putting too much at the mercy of the American bar.

I really believe that.

Well, we're putting it at the mercy of the press, if you point out.

But you see, by doing it to the bar, then it goes to the press, and then the press has to sort of hedge on it.

We can't do that on this next one.

On the factual, technical basis, this is truly an advisory opinion, which nobody's supposed to know anything about, and it isn't formal.

So what we want to bear in mind is how we want to get off the gambit of the bar and put the responsibility for turning down a woman on them.

And in view of that, why then, maybe we just say, well, the hell with the bar if they can't approve these people of this character.

Let's send their hands up to the Senate and let them go ahead and testify before the Senate.

Yeah.

You see, the Baker thing would be looked upon, the Baker-Powell thing would be looked upon, the Southern strategy of the vengeance.

Correct.

Is that a problem?

I just think that that would have to be looked upon.

On the other hand, Baker would be highly regarded as a, I mean, he is to the press relations.

I mean, he's regarded as a very intelligent, he is.

Very able fellow.

He's an able fellow.

He said immediately, the son of a gun is gone.

He's gone with the tapes.

Which will they look at Baker and Powell as the same as some of the people from the Deep South that we know about?

No, it doesn't.

Not much of a Southern strategy.

It isn't mine, frankly.

Let's face it.

Haynesburg was a strong third.

That was Southern strategy.

It was a strong third, as we know.

But that's what they were able to hang around.

But this is quite different, I think.

Basically, we're going to the center of the country, to good people, the best qualified people, and the woman's been turned down.

Well, the options are... And bankers are curious about that court.

I would believe so.

As I told you, he's a very persuasive man.

And Howard's a good lawyer.

I've discussed a lot of these constitutional problems with him.

Is he a good lawyer?

Yes, I believe he's a fine lawyer.

He's got a good mind.

Oh, Chris went through the Voting Rights Act together, and we've gone through revenue sharing long before it became an administration policy.

You know, he was out in front on it.

Okay, John.

I think you've got a better strategy.

Let's see what they do with the woman.

If they take the woman, if they give her...

Well, if I get an okay from Lou Powell, or if I can talk him into it, we'll work the scenario that we talked about yesterday.

I will talk to Walsh about the combination and put it pretty strong to him on the basis that if they turn her down, it's going to be their responsibility and your options to deal with the bar.

I got it this way, but now that it's all detailed, actually it's going to become known.

My options have become limited.

Did I say that?

I said it, Jack.

Yes, sir.

Stir up the bar.

Well, thank you, sir.

Well, I'll make coffee and some milk here at the bakery.

I wasn't getting down right, but I'll get a mess visit, ma'am.

Don't know that any more organic plays.

I want a few, though.