Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 635 › Conversation 635-016

Nixon, Ziegler & Timmesch on Naval modernization and U.S.-Soviet relations

Friday, December 10, 1971 · 12:37 PM–12:47 PM ET · Oval Office · 10 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Timmesch, Nicholas P.; Ziegler, Ronald L.Conversation635-016 on Tape 635 (tape position 03:44:57–03:54:42)StartFriday, December 10, 1971 at 12:37 PMEndFriday, December 10, 1971 at 12:47 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 635-016 ↗ · National Archives Catalog, NAID 417180363 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon met with journalist Nicholas P. Thimmesch and Press Secretary Ronald L. Ziegler to discuss the administration's naval defense strategy and to influence Thimmesch's journalistic focus. The President emphasized the necessity of modernizing the U.S. fleet to maintain global parity with the Soviet Union, framing naval strength as vital for international presence. Additionally, Nixon offered career advice to Thimmesch, encouraging him to transition from print journalism to more influential roles in television, specifically in public broadcasting.

Audio

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NARA Description

On December 10, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Nicholas P. Timmesch, and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:37 pm to 12:47 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 635-016 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 635-016

Date: December 10, 1971
Time: 12:37 pm - 12:47 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Nicholas P. Thimmesch and Ronald L. Ziegler; the White House
photographer was present at the beginning of the meeting.

     Thimmesch's columns

     [Photograph session]

     Thimmesch's schedule

     [Edward C. Nixon]
         -Navy

     Thimmesch's age

     Florida
           -Navy
           -Jane’s Fighting Ships
           -National Broadcasting Company [NBC]
                -Executives

     Thimmesch's columns

     The President's meeting with David Packard
          -Packard resignation
               -Reasons

     Navy
            -US position
                  -Nuclear fleet
            -Undersea Long-range Missile System [ULMS]
                              -“Polaris”
            -Surface fleet
                  -Attempt to modernize
            -Parity
            -Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR] navy
                  -Modern
            -Merchant Marine
                  -Thimmesch’s experience
Show the rest of the log (40 more lines)
     Thimmesch
         -Washington Post
         -Washington Star
         -Los Angeles Times
         -Washington Post
               -Benjamin C. Bradlee
               -Katharine L. Graham
         -Charles W. Colson
               -Smith Hempstone, Jr.
                    -Marine Corps experience
         -Work on trips
               -Robert F. Ellsworth
         -Writing
         -Children
               -Location
         -Mike Wallace story
               -Wallace's background
         -Background
               -Luxembourg visit

                  -Jack Thimmesch
                  -Nicholas Thimmesch
                  -Minnesota
                         -Family
            -Writing columns
                  -Enjoyment
            -Time and Newsweek
            -Los Angeles Times
            -Television appearances
                  -"Meet the Press"
                  -"Firing Line"
                         -William F. Buckley, Jr.
                  -Educational programs
                  -Peter M. Flanigan
                         -Public broadcasting
                  -Columbia Broadcasting System [CBS]
                         -Job offer
            -Children

Thimmesch and Ziegler left at 12:47 pm.

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Oh, hello, Nick.
How are you?
I was reading some of your calls.
Oh, all right.
That'll be good.
Well, his...
Turn 40.
That's it.
How old are you?
41.
41.
You don't look like that.
I don't.
God, I don't give a crap.
Hell, I don't give a crap.
Now, I'll be right here.
Good.
Why don't you let me know when you're done?
This is all kind of a background thing.
I'm surprised they didn't say that the babies were down in Florida.
Good.
So how did that happen?
Well, they flew down and got James by the chest and, uh,
Myself, a couple guys from NBC, but they weren't newsmen.
They were executive types.
The Navy, uh, thinks it's time to come down for it.
Here's the water.
Let me tell you, this is in terms of your right.
You can do this.
This is in the highest authority.
I just had a call with Packard, who says that I'm not believing that you know all of this.
First of all, I should mention one of his comments.
Anyway, looking to the future, it is a priority that the United States maintain its position of leadership in the naval area.
That's why, in terms of both, I'm not referring just simply to the nuclear, everybody talks about the arms, you know, the nuclear planes, the polaris and so forth.
But the service fleet and so forth, the service fleet, including the carriers and so forth, must be modernized.
It must be an area where the United States must be first.
We must continue to
And that's why in our whole defense service, it takes a long time to build a name, you know.
It takes a long time to build a ship.
But we are projecting for the future, under my constant pride, we are projecting on a specific, a program of
I mean, of keeping our naval strength, not only at the levels, but to the problems and so forth.
Well, the way it was described to me, pulling a lot of ships out, let's say pulling out 50 last year, but the new ships coming in, it's so much better.
We're so hard.
Our non...
The nuclear components are really old.
You see, the difficulty is the Soviet Navy is new and being new is more modern.
Now, there is always, we have had to fight the tendency within the Navy, like in all the services, they don't want to get rid of any ships because it's dull.
We simply, but what you simply got to have, you got to pull the old ones out and get the new ones in.
And the Navy costs money, but it has to be.
I'm basically on a big Navy man.
I've always been.
Because in terms of our whole world, it's like, the presence is so important.
By the means of presence.
Oh, it's about now.
That's what it's all about.
You know, part of the problem is...
I was once in the NMU, and I don't think you could ever get a good merchant ring with a union center related.
No way.
Well, I'm sorry you can't read me in the Washington paper, but I'm not around the country.
I was in the Post this summer.
You said you were going to get him to the Star.
What are you talking about?
My God, he ought to be in church.
He ought to be in Canada.
But you are here with him.
Well, I was thinking about Los Angeles Times.
What time?
And randomly and jailed over the post-event.
Considering, you know, it came down to the radio now.
Four months out of the end.
So I thought, you see, this is an absolute star.
You know, you like Captain Graham's dinner party scene.
That's too high a price.
You don't need it that much.
Incidentally, I asked John Coulson, he and Smith-Hemstone were in the Marine Corps together, and they're great friend buddies.
I asked him to speak about it.
I thought we ought to get it in our hands.
I just thought it doesn't mean, obviously, I don't have to do it.
But I think it would be an excellent thing for people in this town who are reading something.
It makes you work better than other people.
You're writing about a reason.
You put forth a very honest one.
Well, also, I've gotten that from people who are readers.
I mean, your discussions, you know, are some of the work you want to do.
I'll send this back on the desk.
How many?
Well, I have three at home with me in school, in the school.
Yeah.
And I have a daughter at a friend's school out in Sandy Springs.
All right.
Did you see the piece Mike Walsh did on the percent of words?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
He did it on a column I wrote.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
I know.
It started at your column.
And then I turned around and wrote a column about this program.
Yeah.
He said he got a record deal on it.
Well, those are real crows.
He's a real big one.
He's Polish by background.
He had those feet.
Mike Wallace was Polish by background.
Yes.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
He's probably a long man.
I can't do it.
It's a suspect in him, of course.
Yeah.
He's got both of them.
He looks like that fuck who says everybody who looks like him.
I can't explain what happens in Luxembourg.
And I was going through Luxembourg two years ago the first time, and I saw my name over a door, Timish.
And I said, stop the car.
And I went there and met a man named Jacques Timish.
And he had a brother, Nicholas Timish.
So we had a big reunion.
Turned out their people went to Minnesota by the time my grandfather came down from there.
So I had to sue them.
It's a great feeling.
Now, do you like... Do you like what I call...
rather than the time, you know?
Oh, yeah, but I had my years of time.
And what you do, you're writing for Rewrite.
Writing for Rewrite.
Writing for Rewrite.
We have so many people here, you know, great reporters for time, but they know damn well, or this week, that's good.
It's just by the grace of God and the magic of the Lord that we're going to get in.
Well, both magazines have opened up a little now to you people of credit.
But I don't know, you've become a train horse after so many years.
You're writing this to some other guy to be writing.
And you get to the point, gee, it's very frustrating.
Yeah.
Let me ask you this.
Have you ever done any television?
I've done, uh, well, I've done, you know, I did Buckley, Buckley had a fire line, and I've done a little, uh, once in a while in education.
That's another establishment where it's hard to practice.
Yeah, oh yes, except by Van Hoeker and a few dogs like that.
Take a look at the, go, take a look at that public broadcasting talk over there.
You're very good at autologizing.
You've got the looks.
You're a young man.
Well, I was offered a job at the CBS.
Oh, it's so damn influential.
That's the point.
Just don't ever turn it down.
I mean, we all live with a written word, but...
But by the way, if you do it, I want them, I want them on this.
If we could, we've got to get them on this.
We've got to get them on this.
We've got to get them on this.
We've got to get them on this.
We've got to get them on this.

Also recorded on December 10, 1971

  • 637-015 12:06 PM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:06 pm and 12:22 pm.
  • 016-078 12:14 PM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull talked on the telephone from 12:14 pm to 12:15 pm.
  • 635-013 12:15 PM · 47 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:15 pm and 12:19 pm.
  • 635-014 12:15 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Stephen B. Bull, and Rose Mary Woods met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:15 pm and 12:19 pm.
  • 635-015 12:19 PM · 17 min — President Richard M. Nixon, David Packard, and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:19 pm to 12:36 pm.
  • 637-017 12:22 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Manolo Sanchez, and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:22 pm to 12:26 pm.
  • 635-017 12:47 PM · 15 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:47 pm to 1:01 pm.
  • 635-018 1:01 PM · 37 sec — United States Secret Service agents met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:01 pm and 3:35 pm.

All 84 conversations from December 10, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 635-016, December 10, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives (NAID 417180363). Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/635-016 (accessed November 1, 2026).