Nixon, Scammon & Colson on Busing and Political Coalitions

1:31:25Thank you for watching!
1:31:39I'm still here.
1:31:44All right.
1:32:16Worked out well.
1:32:37I told Chuck when he was talking and chatting with you that I was fascinated by your, that famous focus of yours, which had such an effect on both parties in the 70s and 80s, and I didn't know what it was.
1:32:58...candidates wearing flags from the palace... ...and... ...anyway... ...the point is that...
1:33:11It must have been quite interesting, you know, we all know what books are and how much work goes into them and the rest, and that kind of a huge thing has such a limited effect, and sure, it's always pleasant to meet people who read your book.
1:33:32But the book has an effect so nasty that it's written about people bailing out of departments, financial departments, properties, for a small, small book.
1:33:43But that must have been really something.
1:33:46It's a little frightening, doesn't it?
1:33:48Yeah, it's like your power.
1:33:50It's like you've got my back.
1:33:51You know, you mean I see something that put those people really... Yeah, yeah.
1:33:55So then you realize the power and responsibility...
1:33:58And the rest that you also realize, in terms of responsibility, how important it is that the theory that you put out in New London is sustainable.
1:34:09I see it working out, I would say, in terms of John Lennon being here, in terms of being part of the platform, because I think I'm against the legalization of marijuana, which obviously he needs to do, because he's the senator of the majority, but he came out against it.
1:34:23Yes, sir.
1:34:23Yes, sir.
1:34:45It was one of, it was an academic, he would quote all these, he would tell those, all the colleges, wherever they are, you know, there's a lot of good and bad that could happen.
1:34:53Why did he tell those?
1:34:54Why?
1:34:54He read polls, too.
1:34:56Yeah, he read polls on marijuana.
1:34:58He didn't hold it, he didn't hold it about the same, because he had, after all, he was trying to lead for the center.
1:35:04Unless you're trying to conduct a sort of prohibition party education campaign.
1:35:24The man who perhaps accomplished the most in that direction was Bob LaFaude.
1:35:28LaFaude had five, you know, he thought five was the most, which was quite something in early Chinese.
1:35:37He had considerable effect.
1:35:41He probably, although he was a maverick republican, probably had more effect than Obama had.
1:35:47Instead of taking that huge republic, which had already been stomping into the country since the Civil War, except for the two Cleveland episodes and the Wilson aberrations, he had the effect of, and this was four years before, or eight years before, of building the,
1:36:27Right.
1:36:27But Hoover, basically, was a progressive, you know.
1:36:29Yes, that's right.
1:36:30He was in the... and on the fall of Poland.
1:36:35Correct.
1:36:35Well, this is very true.
1:36:37You take the fall of Smith.
1:36:40The one on economic and sort of armed folks.
1:36:44Yeah.
1:36:45And Smith...
1:36:46Both were the people who built a foundation on this world that they didn't put it down.
1:36:53Yeah.
1:37:46All right, now it's 1964, or, uh...
1:37:49I can't tell you any more than that, uh...
1:38:20No, no, it needs to surface.
1:38:22I mean, of course, we see it in terms of busing, direction of decision, forest heralds, et cetera, et cetera, some of those things.
1:38:54And, you know, it's very intriguing to find out how this was the coalition case there.
1:38:59Over on both sides, the Republican coalition, for example, that gave them a lot of black votes in their head, but they had black and Jewish votes.
1:39:05Not so many of them, as a matter of fact, Franco carried the Jewish votes.
1:39:10He carried the Jewish votes.
1:39:11He did.
1:39:11But, but, but, they got most of the blacks.
1:39:14They got most of the blacks.
1:39:16They got most of the blacks, because this, this place in Cleveland, which is like a bird, with
1:39:22A quarter of a black stain in Carnegie out there in Cleveland.
1:39:25Yeah.
1:39:26Interesting, you know, there are interesting reasons I have out there that, on that election that we asked, and they gave us two basic reasons.
1:39:31The first was, the less well-educated Chico never got the word that he was supposed to be getting from Carnegie to the black men.
1:39:40And the well-educated Chico said, you can't push me around like I said, believe me.
1:39:44I voted for Carnegie on the whole market, and I respect how long people are going to be buying and selling off the market.
1:39:50But the...
1:39:51Basically, each of the social issues there resolves the living group of it.
1:39:55I think the difficulty is that its political traceability is less in the sense of planning implications than...
1:53:39If you don't express it, the whole product really is built out of this kind of little, little thing.
1:53:44And in the, in the social issue of business, I don't really think your administration, I say very frankly, I don't think your administration has been able, or at least has not been perceived as being definitively on the side of the angels of the other people who you can pretend to be on the side of the devils.
1:54:02And then, of course, it was all like Brazil.
1:54:05It was very hard to, you know, it was a hard day.
1:54:08It was like, you know, it was all over Brazil, and the city was all falling apart.
1:54:17You already knew that he was a Democrat.
1:54:19He was a Democrat, yeah.
1:54:28But you take it out right there and rub it right next to them.
1:54:31A lot like the Forest Coast times.
1:54:33You go down around the back of the city called the Torch, that area of Fairfax.
1:54:37And, you know, that's where you spot other people.
1:54:39And the black line is all there.
1:54:40And maybe more so because you tend to find, unless it's Jewish, the only Jewish people there.
1:54:45More work-intact experience and less professional experience.
1:54:49You get more workers who are owners and you are professor, professor, doctor, doctor.
1:54:53That's right.
1:54:54They feel it.
1:54:55Just as they would hear it in Washington, R.C.O.
1:54:57It would not be perceived that way now.
1:54:59It wouldn't be perceived that way.
1:55:01It wouldn't be perceived that way.
1:55:05Well, you know, if we think it's good for all to do it, then we can still be responsible.
1:55:10We, of course, have moved very strongly in the court.
1:55:13I agree.
1:55:14We take a little bang there.
1:55:16That doesn't get across to the average person, I'm afraid.
1:55:19Moreover, there's a nice place that you say that first.
1:55:21I think Mr. Johnson said the same thing.
1:55:25You're not just a party leader, you're also president behind the state.
1:55:28And you don't want to say or do things when you are president.
1:55:55perhaps centered, a little left to center, but on the other hand, from a political standpoint, i.e.
1:56:01a model of defense, that whether it's busting or enforcing integrated housing or anything like that, that they are down on these truths, that they've gone through these files, they've gone through the whole crime thing, the countries that they're against without any question, they're...
1:56:21I guess we're missing this.
1:56:23They're casting marijuana and stuff and the rest.
1:56:25They're not in college.
1:56:26They're not in college.
1:56:27They're kind of square.
1:56:29I think the tendency is that here they sit here in this town.
1:56:33So many people who hold the U.R.
1:56:36Washington Actions.
1:56:36And of course we have this type of people that
1:56:39In Los Angeles, you've got that kind of a setting on the shelter in Chicago, and they run and they all drink too much, and talk too much, and think too little, and all these paratrooper-wise, but basically other people think.
1:56:55And also, basically, they lost their guts.
1:56:58That's something else.
1:56:58I tell you, you know, the real guts of this country, the real guts of this country, I mean, you know, I had, you know, I was supposed to have, I had this little black man serving me, but the man who did this, you know, this officer, I don't remember him, also, because he basically is a decent person.
1:57:18You know, God-favorite American.
1:57:21And that's what happened.
1:57:22You know, you take, there was a piece in one of the papers by young Bjorst, whose wife makes this wonderful poetry.
1:57:31Bjorst wrote the piece about, he was very happy to just see the uncertainty about Busset.
1:57:36He started to develop a new approach on Busset.
1:57:40And the fact is that the court has pushed this so far beyond the non-segregation area that
1:57:48You get now, with the Detroit possibility of the British decision, a real crackdown in which, of course, the real problem doesn't become the British, the real problem is still with the French islands.
1:58:01In other words, you and I can keep together a majority of white Americans to agree even to integrate schools on a busing basis if they weren't afraid that a kid was going to come home with his bills knocked out.
1:58:09Right, right.
1:58:10Just like the people in Congress who got their kids out of the pockets here, and the Air Force has always designed for them, if the IRS ever gave the taxpayer a deduction for when they spent a brand new education.
1:58:22In other words, if they lowered the top-off level from wealth to little glass, which is really what it is,
1:58:30But the effect would be, you know, they'd have to evaluate that.
1:58:34Your feeling is that we haven't taken that application?
1:58:38I don't think so.
1:58:39No, I'm not saying you may have.
1:58:43More so, but you know, this is a problem that we have to ask.
1:58:47How can you identify?
1:58:48The only way you can really identify an issue is if you're not present in the United States or Kennedy County.
1:58:55is to get out on the roster and scream.
1:58:57The more you scream, the more extreme you sound.
1:59:00And therefore, the more of us, the less likely you are to be able to hit the center.
1:59:02It's a very typical story out of the media world.
1:59:05You have to be like, you've got to be like, you've got to be false, you've got to be like, you've got to be like, you've got to be like, you've got to be like, you've got to be like, you've got to be like,
1:59:38You put your finger on something else.
1:59:41They are decent people.
1:59:42They aren't greedy or racist.
1:59:45It isn't to beat down the haters of blacks or Catholics or...
1:59:49This is not a black thing.
1:59:51It's a spirit.
1:59:52It's a spirit.
1:59:52It's a pure faith.
1:59:53But we've got to face the fact that it, and it's not just true black people are greedy.
1:59:58It's true for a lot of others.
2:00:00It's true for all Mexicans.
2:00:02...now becoming true in California, that in these so-called galleries, these kids that aren't going to have the same background, that it's extremely easy to have your kid go to school.
2:00:16Isn't that what you said?
2:00:17Well, first of all, you have to have a class of five families here in addition to Columbia who pay Montgomery County Mayor.
2:00:23These are ways for you to be able to send their children out to the Montgomery County Public Schools.
2:00:28Now, this comes out of a situation where, these are very decent people.
2:00:34You remember the picture, I guess it's coming to dinner.
2:00:37These are the kind of black people who are the letter carrier father of Washiach in that movie.
2:00:43Very decent, honest people.
2:00:44They just want to get ahead like everybody else.
2:00:47They want to go to war.
2:00:49Somebody wants to let you know that these aren't the people who denied the bourgeoisie.
2:00:52These are the people who seek back to the bourgeoisie.
2:01:37But when you come down to something else, I think that, and I can express it if you want, I think I catch this in your book, but if you haven't been hitting it, I can certainly take it from some of your democratic friends, because we've got to take it back a little bit.
2:01:54In this country, there are better elements.
2:01:57And by that, those elements that deserve to survive must be encouraged.
2:02:03And those elements that do not deserve to rule, cannot rule.
2:02:07Let me give you my own view of what I heard at the moment.
2:02:10I'm here.
2:02:12The reason why I'm here today, and everybody else is on that occasion, is to be breaking a biography of history right here.
2:02:19There it is.
2:02:22You can take Wells' history of civilization.
2:02:25You can take history of British 19th century.
2:02:30These are reasons for you to be able to send their children out to Montgomery County Public Schools.
2:02:42Now, this comes out of a situation where
2:02:47These are very decent people.
2:02:48You remember the picture, I guess it's coming to dinner.
2:02:51These are the kind of black people who are the letter-carrier father of Watt, the agent of that movie.
2:02:57Very decent, honest people.
2:02:58They just want to get ahead like everybody else.
2:03:01They want to go to the war.
2:03:03Somebody once said, you know, that these aren't the people who deny the bourgeoisie.
2:03:06These are the people who speak back to the bourgeoisie.
2:03:30I agree with you about the total social issue, and it depends on how it will be, whether it will be busing, whether it will be crime, whether it will be immigration, so it depends on the enforcement of customs, of course, the customs are real.
2:03:47I think it goes into economics as well as the other things, and that reverts people.
2:03:51But when you come down to something else, I think that, and I can express it if you want, I think I touched this in your book, but if you haven't been hitting it, I can certainly take it from some of your demographic friends, because we've got to take it back a little bit.
2:04:08In this country, there are better elements.
2:04:11And by that, those elements that deserve to survive must be encouraged.
2:04:17And those elements that do not deserve to rule, cannot rule.
2:04:21I'm going to give you my own view of where I'm going.
2:04:22I'm here.
2:04:24The reason why I'm here today, and everybody else is on that occasion, is to re-break the biography of history right here.
2:04:33There it is.
2:04:36You can take Wells' history of civilization, you can take the history of the British in the 19th century, and not just what you find through all civilizations.
2:04:51The British in 19th century is a good example.
2:04:55That as the civilization becomes wealthier,
2:04:59And this Wells, for the contrary, I understand, he has ID, right?
2:05:04And he's a magnificent historian.
2:05:07His whole idea was restored by the idea that he thought that only people were educated, that the common man meant the right and safe, and of course he was wrong.
2:05:20But nevertheless, history of civilization is all about that, and it's people who have been better and more and more educated, and so on.
2:05:30After then,
2:05:32The better people would make the decisions, and all these crude politicians and others, these mediocre men and women, the mostly men who had ruled, would be cast aside, and that would be a very good thing.
2:05:48Now what is happening?
2:05:51And what has happened, and I say this as one, if you are, who did go to college, has great respect for the intellectual.
2:06:02We must use them, and all that sort of thing.
2:06:06What has happened is that
2:06:10that we have developed particularly in the elite colleges and universities in Trans-Armenia now, and together across the country, and it's in the Midwest and the South as well, but not as great, but coming across there as far as a period, but throughout these years.
2:06:27What's happened is
2:06:30That the new intellectual elite established in this country is not fit to rule.
2:06:35I mean, and that's not saying this in the farthest sense, because the Republicans, who were in this elite, who circulated in the cocktail party and so forth in New York, Los Angeles, places that I used to go, are just as bad as the Democratic friends.
2:06:53What it is, is that they have gone through the intellectual process, and they've come out of that process with a feeling of lack of faith in the country.
2:07:05All the old ideals are bad.
2:07:07They listen to professors who are frustrated, and keep their lives, their own lives, and keep those that rule, and think, well, we were here to be better, and so forth and so on.
2:07:18And that's been so when the great issues come up.
2:07:22Some of the decisions I had to make on the Vietnam War example, I had never been involved.
2:07:29I'm sure this is, I could always have been on a meeting.
2:07:31Yes, I'm sure this is not.
2:07:33Here we are, and the reason is that basically, me, me and his friends, and Terry Grant, I mean, I'm sure, and Pete Grant, and fellows like that, and O'Frank, and I'm surprised they come in, and they decent those, and this and that, and they go by, but they saw the issue.
2:07:51Now, what is happening here is that the United States does come,
2:07:59And I speak to the Democratic politicians as well as the Republicans.
2:08:03The primary is the problem of the Democratic politicians now.
2:08:07If they go over the first thing,
2:08:10And by this line, that the intellectuals, so-called, the intellectuals, those that write the editorials for Washington Post and the New York Times, the elite editorials of Time and Life, who generally parent out of the network, well, some of them are good people, some of them, they're all decent people, and they just believe wrong.
2:08:29And if they, however, prevail, this country's head...
2:08:34Because what will happen is that we will go the way of the church, we will go the way of the French, we will go the way of others who turn and because you will find that church finally birthed intellectual generally loses his guts, he loses his courage, he thinks too much about our problems and he paralyzes them.
2:09:02Now, the investigator, who is an intellectual, is an exception.
2:09:06He's an exception for reasons.
2:09:09He's a Jewish boy who came out of there, and he's been through the fire, and so forth, and he believes in certain principles, but he's very emotional.
2:09:17Anybody with his brains and his education, and that's why he's a forensic.
2:09:22He's a forensic.
2:09:24Now, my point is that
2:09:27What is needed now is not that we simply have a, that we, that we, that we not go to a know-nothing, a heart has to hold you right, held in tears and all that sort of thing.
2:09:42We know that's wrong.
2:09:44You can't do that.
2:09:45But what is needed are, are leaders in this country who understand this.
2:09:52who understand acting, who realize that while our heads are not always right, they, on facing issues, are usually closer to the truth than the highly educated electorate who stares at us because the guy's got modest feet.
2:10:07This is what we are saying in that book, and we're saying that if you have hard heads, you've got to do this.
2:10:13What we're really going to need to take is a wonderful location of boundaries, you know, that
2:10:18I remember when I was in the war, one of the officers, junior officers with us, the second person general who would work,
2:10:42They bombed.
2:10:51They haven't got the stamina for it.
2:10:55They just can't stick with it, because some of this is wrong.
2:11:02The dream of a home government, for example, of how you can crack a thing back, and programs will solve all your typical problems, and the intellectuals that you get to say these are destroyed, they're not going to worry about how many somethings I can't reject.
2:11:15These people simply are not in a position to succeed.
2:11:21It's the application of power.
2:11:26It's a sort of a new variety of 12th century children's reality.
2:11:32The knowledge and power of their society and everything that's created in the United States, and because it's rich, and because it's powerful, and because it has done frankly right.
2:11:45They are so ashamed of power, that they also do not know how to get it to the person they ask.
2:11:49Except that the puppeteers, there are a lot of people who sit in this room, must, must not become basically their puppets.
2:12:01It's very important, it's very important to believe the one thing I know for sure, the fact.
2:12:09I read everything.
2:12:10I mean, I probably read more editorials for them.
2:12:12I used to do a new song, and I heard a little kind of it.
2:12:16But I read them only to know what they're saying.
2:12:18Well, sometimes they have an idea or two.
2:12:20But basically, you cannot take people who are sitting there behind the desk, you know, they're all entertaining, they're hatred, they're frustration, they're all pro-liberalism.
2:12:31You can take a far-right nut and say that he's there.
2:12:34I don't believe it.
2:12:35My point is that you...
2:12:38Yeah, that the United States at this point, now I could make you go swear at a couple of Canada people, but the United States at this point is very sustained in the world.
2:12:47You might not be surprised if you're a Democratic colleague.
2:12:53See the next 25 years you've got to look at.
2:12:56This may be the last of the period in which the United States has the opportunity to be the leader of the world, and even the leader of the free world.
2:13:06And the two are different, of course.
2:13:08We're holding them all.
2:13:10This is the first one right here.
2:13:14What's more important than our wealth and our power will be our sense of destiny and our guts and so forth.
2:13:20We can call it about wanting to be number one, everybody.
2:13:23This is all that, right?
2:13:25All right.
2:13:25Maybe we don't want to be number one for number one's sake, but you've got to try.
2:13:29Because if you don't, then you'll become, you'll turn into, as the British have, and the French have, and the Dutch have, and the Danes have, and the Swedes have, and all these great people.
2:13:39There's still wonderful people.
2:13:41But, once a nation loses the trust to greatness, they cease to be a great people.
2:13:47Now, the difficulty is that it would be fine if all nations wanted to live like we're the white ones.
2:13:54So we could, after all, we've got a $30 economy, and that's $500 like Japan.
2:14:00That's ten times as much as Britain.
2:14:01Every year we grow in Britain.
2:14:03Every year we grow in France.
2:14:05Every two years we grow in Japan.
2:14:06So it keeps us on the low end.
2:14:08That's another problem.
2:14:10In the world today, basically, there are people who still have guts.
2:14:18Let me say it about the Chinese and the Russians.
2:14:21Their systems are abominable.
2:14:25They will not succeed.
2:14:27But the Russian people and the Chinese people still have got drive and guts and the will to do something.
2:14:36Now, in Europe,
2:15:05So the question is, what kind of a world would we build?
2:15:28Where do we come out from all this?
2:15:30We can turn anywhere.
2:15:31We can say we're all the men and the gals.
2:15:34And we can say, well, all these great ladies and men and so forth and so on.
2:15:43And the United States will move down very, very fast.
2:15:46Because this intellectual incest is the worst kind.
2:15:50Much worse than this incest is.

Nixon, Scammon & Colson on Busing and Political Coalitions

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Also recorded on January 27, 1972

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