Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on People's Republic of China and Press relations

19:59Well, I think also, let me say, well, it's a good test for us as to whether or not whenever we've got a tough one, it'll stand up.
20:01We've just got to have sometimes somebody to stand up.
20:07Well, we shouldn't certainly stand up on Ireland, Mr. President.
20:10That's nothing to begin with.
20:11We'll infuriate the British.
20:16If we want to play politics with it, you ought to do it.
20:20But I don't think it ought to be done.
20:26And what is your complaint, Paul?
20:28That that's the only... Well, his concern is, of course, his state is getting ahead.
20:33You know, I mean, in ours, now there are inquiries from Botley and Bailey and the Irish over here as to what the hell our position is.
20:44Well, we just say we're interested.
20:47It's not a foreign policy project, sir.
20:50It really is what I said the other night.
20:53I don't even think he should step out with it.
20:55Well, I thought that you had already announced it.
21:03He called me.
21:04Well, then he said he's bound to say something that's going to cause trouble with it, really.
21:14Keating, whom you're going to be seeing.
21:19I've given him, as I told you yesterday, a rather full account of everything we've been doing, because I thought we might as well take him into camp.
21:25I told him if I saw Ja alone, I'd either back-channel him or write him a letter.
21:30And he just wants this confirmed from you that you know about that and want it that way.
21:38And secondly, he's going to testify before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
21:43Ja.
21:45He's going to testify before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
21:49And they have those cables, and he's been coached to say things which are not going to be very helpful to us by Cisco and others over there.
21:58Like what?
22:01Like, for example, Dave said, he said, what do I say when they ask me about why didn't you say war?
22:10We didn't know what was imminent.
22:11And Rogers and Cisco said, I don't know how he could say this because...
22:18We knew what was imminent over here.
22:20Well, if they knew it, they'd come down and never send it to us.
22:23You remember, they always told us Mrs. Candy was a force for moderation.
22:27For Christ's sakes, they hadn't even given her a day's labor.
22:30That's not anything I told Mrs. Candy, regardless of the State Department talking points.
22:34Of course.
22:36The only point is that he shouldn't get the Anderson papers all churned up again.
22:40Let me tell you something.
22:41I was scared to keep with him.
22:44They injured his wife.
22:46I say, now, Ken, you indicated in down there that in case the state did something, I'm going to put out in front of the White House
22:54the memorandum that you and Spade sent me before Mrs. Gandhi's visit?
22:58Well, no, he didn't so much, but the state did.
23:00But the thing to do is to say, we'll publish that record with the Indians, which will get us into more trouble with the Indians, and that is no good.
23:06All right, go ahead.
23:08Because the goddamn Indian ambassador, when he left on November 19th, said if you, if I got in touch with him by December 1st, it could still affect events.
23:16All right.
23:18Therefore, we had no reason to suppose that they'd go to attack on November 22nd.
23:24Uh, I think that...
23:28Uh, he just failed.
23:29He said that's all past.
23:32But I think he...
23:34I think he... Well, he would like to tell the Indians we're considering recognition.
23:39Well, we will accept recognition, but we can't announce it.
23:43No, no, no.
23:44That's right.
23:44I told him that...
23:52He, in my judgment, pending your confirmation, he might have to go as far as to say they're not going to challenge the facts of life there, which is not saying they're recognized.
24:04Yeah.
24:05And that we will go very slow on any armed sequence from Pakistan, which we'll have to do anyway because of our domestic situation here.
24:13Yeah.
24:13Well, I expect we can get to everything.
24:21That's excellent.
24:22What do we want to say?
24:24It's a matter that we have under consideration.
24:27We'll do some humanitarian relief.
24:29What about humanitarian relief?
24:31We are helping.
24:31We'll continue to do that.
24:33That's right.
24:34You will get a paper this weekend, Mr. President, in which we propose that we pledge our percentage of the U.N. contributions, in other words, between 30 and 35 percent, to any humanitarian effort.
24:49So it has other countries to put up or shut up.
24:53Yeah.
24:53It still makes a lot of sense.
24:55What's the heating position on it?
24:57Has the state written a paper urging immediate recognition of any leadership?
25:02No, no.
25:02The state agrees that nothing can be considered until after you've taken care of it.
25:06All right.
25:07Good.
25:08So the state is not a cross-border.
25:10What does he want to say with regard to this now being the restoration of India and India?
25:14That would be that.
25:15I don't know.
25:17He was at the Foreign Relations Committee.
25:19Of course, he should never have been the first to testify.
25:22That's the first mistake we made when it was mentioned.
25:25Because they sure as hell kept following him.
25:28I'm sorry, Ambassador.
25:29Go ahead.
25:30Well, he could have been kept from testifying.
25:32Let's leave that out.
25:33Ambassador should have testified.
25:37Go ahead.
25:37So then... We had to get him back here to keep him from baffling in New Delhi before he had tripped.
25:44What is the situation now?
25:46What do we say?
25:47On their direction of aid.
25:49But if you will report next week, you're saying we are prepared to start discussions with India about the whole framework of our relationship.
25:59And this will be one part of it.
26:04Discussions.
26:06My strong view is that we should not give it back very quickly.
26:10Well, I couldn't agree more, but I just wondered what the chief was going to say.
26:14OK.
26:15I think Keating is not in a very rebellious mood right now.
26:19Well, he shouldn't be.
27:04The others we see, we see Bunker is a problem there.
27:08The only thing about Bunker you may want to discuss is his leaving.
27:10Yeah, yeah.
27:12Now, he can't leave during the offensive.
27:18And I don't really know if he'll be reprised.
27:21He's a patient.
27:24What a fine man, John.
27:26Oh, boy.
27:28I mean, you've got to do a message like that.
27:30It makes it worthwhile for the others.
27:32Well, this guy, Porter, I must say, is in Paris.
27:35Yeah.
27:35How are you?
27:36He's the one foreign to his office.
27:38Yeah.
27:39Maybe not the one, but he's the one foreign to his office.
27:41Yes, yes.
27:42He's tremendous.
27:43Great.
27:44Now, with regard to the, uh, he's pushed apart.
27:49I think you could see from him if you see.
27:51He is?
27:52Yes.
27:55All right, do I have to see him to do this?
27:57Well, that's impolite.
27:58He doesn't have to be today.
28:01Well, that's a dissent.
28:02Well, I have to be there.
28:03I've got to be gone.
28:04The President won't be here tomorrow.
28:07He's not here.
28:07He's not here.
28:10It says first through the fourth.
28:12Well, we can keep him.
28:14Well, we just have to.
28:16I don't know what to say, though.
28:17We've got about two people today.
28:19And we can keep him.
28:20Well, then you're stuck with him next week.
28:25All right, I'll be better off getting him out of the way today if you have to see him.
28:32Well, I made a decision to go to Florida today, but tonight's so much.
28:34I'm going to screw up tomorrow.
28:37Yeah, well, that's modest.
28:39The assumption can't be gone.
28:43He has to be seen.
28:44I saw him last time for an hour, even though he was here.
28:48Well, if you see Keating, then... Well, I know, but we're seeing Keating for other reasons.
28:52I mean, Bartlett's a loyal...
28:54It isn't, it isn't.
28:55He's such a loyal man, he understands.
28:59Why don't we schedule him for tomorrow, and then you go away tonight?
29:01You can't do that.
29:08What did you say?
29:08Because for a long time, you're stuck with him.
29:10No, no, you...
29:11He's in great engagement.
29:13Great engagement.
29:14Schedule him for tomorrow, and then I'll call him this afternoon and say...
29:20That is not important.
29:21I can handle it, but...
29:22I can't require you to schedule out too much room.
29:28That's the issue.
29:28I don't want to keep you on the job anymore.
29:32Foreign service is important.
29:38You know, there are only three things that are important.
29:42It's important policy.
29:46I don't want to grab her on this other stuff.
29:49The other thing is this memo you sent in on the question of Yad Vashemko.
29:54Rogers has fired a memo to you strongly recommending you not see Yad Vashemko.
30:00We agree.
30:00You see?
30:01Oh, yeah.
30:02Let me just give it back to him.
30:03Oh, God damn it.
30:04It's announced.
30:05Of course I see it.
30:06Why do you send a memorandum in?
30:07I haven't read it out.
30:07Well, that's what's really ridiculous about this.
30:10He's known about it for three days.
30:14We sent you a memo late yesterday without calling or anything.
30:19Where is the memorandum?
30:20It's with Andrew Rogers that I'm supposed to send him on that.
30:25You'll have to meet him at the brink.
30:28I'll have to do that on the floor.
30:29Did Kister get to us a draft of a memo that I wasn't supposed to send to Roger?
30:40I'll get it.
31:38Here it is.
32:28It doesn't make a goddamn bit of difference what state thinks.
32:34What's the matter?
32:35They think he's anti-Russian.
32:37No, they think he has done things against Vietnam.
32:41It's the people we want.
32:54It is so...
33:23It is so hot that I might make a few points with this.
33:30Domestically, you know, I know the pressures that I think if we play a rather stage-in-the-mind role, not trying to exacerbate this terribly great problem, because, you know, it's really unconscionable what these people have done.
33:47you know, burning down the dam, it's interesting, but, and, you know, and Sean can come over and all that, I understand, but I think if your line could be one of the, just,
33:59not trying to make political hay out of the issue, and that we're just a peaceful settlement of these things and so forth, but it's not a problem that we're going to be decimated by trying to influence it from here.
34:16It's kind of like them getting into our problems with the Negroes, you know.
34:47so that the ball is on their side of the net if they want to help fly.
34:54I don't think that's right.
34:58Right, right.
34:59And I was trying to think again what I told you.
35:03And I just simply told him, you know, this and this.
35:07And as a matter of fact, I used this and these as examples.
35:11I said, look, we are not going to embarrass you.
35:15We're going to try to be as reasonable as we can.
35:18So I don't want to be in a position where we are, frankly, and how it would come up.
35:24I said, we're not going to embarrass you on this issue.
35:29That was all we said.
35:30Fine.
35:32So I guess you can't be headed in that spirit, OK?
35:37Good.
35:44Yeah, yeah, well, I tell you, the, uh, way that, I don't know, he and the Regents, the M.W.A.
35:48go over everything, but I, uh, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of children in the garden.
35:53Oh, I don't know what you want to do.
36:02Yeah, yeah.
36:03Hold on a second.
36:04Except the Russian.
36:06Okay.
36:06Uh, well, you have to get that Russian boy.
36:08He says a lot of kids have been to that.
36:13It's a grandstand play for the goddamn liberals.
36:19Second place within ten minutes of your approving it last Monday.
36:25That's what we're doing.
36:28You know, the liberals can say you are open-minded and...
36:32it's a i said it was pure public relations when we mentioned it he had requested it we go through this every day i notified them i didn't even have to do that as soon as you proved that this is the sort of thing that tax would be handled with a phone call to my office
36:57Oh, forget it.
36:59Forget it.
36:59It's really not worth a memo to you from the Secretary.
37:01Well, I suppose it may.
37:03I'm just trying to prove it.
37:12You heard my son-in-law.
37:13Yes, well, I just said we aren't going to embarrass him.
37:16He said, well, he was going to say that both, both, that he had discussed it with Cromer.
37:21He discussed it with the foreign minister that we were not going to intervene.
37:25We were, of course, in a peaceful settlement.
37:28We would be glad to be in assistance if I asked or something like that.
37:32That was all.
37:33We're hoping it comes out all right.
37:35I don't think so.
37:36I'm going to check with Cromer.
37:38I don't think the British would like that.
37:40They won't think we kept him there.
37:42can play any role.
37:43It's like Eve getting up in Parliament and saying, when we have a race riot at ours, you'll be glad to be in town.
37:50Ah.
37:50I didn't mean to say that.
37:56No, no, you didn't.
37:57I mean, it's perfectly clear what you wanted to say.
37:59I'm embarrassed.
38:08Let's handle Parliament the way that I'd like to see it.
38:15What would you like to take to keep escape with you?
38:18Should I give you some of the books of the conversations now in the memoirs?
38:23Yes, sir.
38:24I'll have four books.
38:25And I'll have four books for your biographical assessment of model and show a...
38:39Let me get this, and then three others full of memos.
38:42I just wanted to put into it, I had an analysis made, which I think you'll find interesting, of Marr's favorite novels.
38:52Just to give you a clue to his mind.
38:54Just three or four pages.
38:55Yeah.
38:55One of the marshes.
39:04He's coming in at 10.
39:07I just want to get the boat down.
39:10He needs to go down to the bunker at 10.30.
39:40You can raise the point that on your backup material and anything else on that, if you want him to do any marking up, condensation, or anything like that, or any articles or books you want,
40:07I don't know what he wanted to do with it.
40:09I don't know what he wanted to get in.
40:13He might be very good at that.
40:16And, uh, yeah, he might be better than Hammerstruck.
40:22They're doing the Hammerstruck.
40:23Well, he's going through the, he's just saying there must be a good volume of backup material, which he'll be reading in the present century.
40:29I'll read it and mark it up.
40:30We're convinced the volume can't be consumed.
40:35So that's just to figure out, how about taking him with me to Florida, you know, so forth.
40:46All right.
40:49Okay.
40:50You got a plan to go?
40:51I think so.
40:52We got to get just set up.
40:56But if you want to go tonight, we got to get, you know,
41:02Because that reception is at 5 o'clock.
41:04Yeah.
41:05You can leave at 6.
41:09If you leave before that, you can leave at 5.30.
41:16Well, let's say 6 o'clock.
41:20All right.
41:37You know, we didn't appear to give a shit.
41:39Pissy-ass little bitch.
41:41Departments didn't play.
41:43You know, they proved their goddamn manhood or her.
41:49We went through this whole thing, the whole thing on a peace proposal in October.
41:53We went through the whole thing, you know, on a leg up to Cambodia, and Crossford, and Rogers, and Laird were just buying each other.
42:02They were talking to God.
42:04They were just playing ball, pit balls, and then so forth and so on.
42:07Right up to the last, you know.
42:10I suppose a lot of it is due to Henry's abrasive personality, but on the other hand,
42:32Oh, I'm terrified.
42:34He knows.
42:35He says, be careful with me.
42:38Well, then I learned to be careful before he heard the word.
42:40Like, I never tried sex.
42:41But the other side of that, although the other side of that is maybe right.
42:45You know what I mean?
42:46An argument that he knows.
42:48Close to toss when Henry reads something.
42:50So whether it's a good idea or a bad idea to see him.
42:52It may be a bad idea.
42:53I don't know.
42:54I don't know what that thought is.
42:56Okay, but if it is, then he ought to call me or Henry or somebody.
43:01I said, Jesus, you must be out of your mind putting this bullet on the schedule, getting him off.
43:05And he could have done it yesterday before we put it out.
43:08He knew it three days ago.
43:10He knew it the day of the schedule.
43:13I let him know that you've got to let us know if they want to take it off.
43:17He sent the memo late yesterday.
43:18And he says there's a formal memorandum to the president.
43:23What it is, is it puts him on record.
43:26He said, I told you so.
43:27I've sent you the same number.
43:28I know you'll scream about it.
43:31Nobody's going to scream one way or the other.
43:36I'm going to put it on the thing for the public.
43:41Well, they put the word out because he put the word out.
43:45But we are not putting it on for a photo or an impression.
43:49Oh, no.
43:49That whale reaction surprised me.
43:59We want the press, the photo thing to be the drug story that anyone can't talk to.
44:09But it tells you shit and shit, that's all.
44:12There may be, you know, we've been worrying about Henry's character.
44:16We may have a worse real problem with Bill than we think.
44:21There's a, I didn't believe it, but I checked in the third channel that Henry's
44:28He was telling me that he had lunch yesterday, I guess, with Ben Bradley.
44:38No, Henry did.
44:40And Bradley said, I just want you to know that we're very concerned about Bill Rogers, and Kay is too, that there's something wrong with him.
44:51We had a four-hour session with him or a two-hour session with him or something, and he spent the whole time
44:55telling us how he had solved all the foreign policy problems.
44:59He said, you look at your paper now, there are no foreign policy problems.
45:02I've taken care of them.
45:03We had this, and I took care of that.
45:05We had that, and I took care of that.
45:07And he said, this is Bradley now, St. Ben Henry.
45:10He said, for Christ's sake, Henry, we know Bill Rogers.
45:14He was our lawyer until a couple years ago.
45:16We know he didn't solve a goddamn thing because he doesn't know anything about it.
45:20We know what's been done.
45:22And we also know there are a lot more policy problems.
45:25And if Rodgers had looked at our paper, he'd see there are plenty of them.
45:27They aren't all solved by any means.
45:30And he said, to be perfectly frank, both Kate and I were very concerned that something was wrong with Bill.
45:37Part of this may be Henry, but I did a little checking back.
45:40And it may be that there is something, too, that Bill is not acting rationally in his dealings with .
45:47This thing on the Dobrynin meeting is not a rational way to do it.
45:52He knows it.
45:53He has been meeting consistently with the Israelis without saying so, even though he says he has.
45:58In other words, he's not .
46:00He's just panicking and fanatically concerned about .
46:05He doesn't want to get the credit for everything.
46:13I also picked up a clue on the economy thing that I think maybe, uh, I've been talking about tonight, putting a lot of loose ends together, I think maybe the principal core of our problem with him is Dave Kennedy.
46:29well god damn it well we got a real problem because of this thing when you and henry decided you know to give him all these little plums to get him to take the native job and he's playing that and that's what he's
47:00Kennedy falls off with the real possibility that he might resign.
47:05And if he does, it's too goddamn bad.
47:07But it isn't too bad at all.
47:09We've done a lot for Kennedy.
47:10We've done too much for him.
47:13But he's playing this thing.
47:14Now, he came in, Rogers and Coffey, I've picked this up from a whole circle of stuff, but Kennedy, for instance,
47:21has used up his travel allowance, expense allowance, for this fiscal year, even though the year's only half over, and he's submitted a memorandum saying they'll have to give him an additional amount.
47:30His travel allowance for the year was $100,000, and he has spent the whole $100,000 in the first six months, and he's now asking for another $100,000 for the second six months.
47:41Well, he's standing on things.
47:43Well, sort of, but he cranks them up.
47:47He has spent himself on a lot of stuff.
47:50And she still has to approve that, and the county has to pay it.
47:54And they've agreed they aren't going to do it.
47:56When you were planting it, you wouldn't plant it again.
48:01Well, I think you'd better leave the county.
48:06and do it, and said, now Bob, don't put this off.
48:09You see, one of the things we wanted to do today, today, you said you had something you wanted to talk to me about.
48:18Today, frankly, the president feels it's gotten out of line here.
48:22He just said when he was ordered, he could, you know, have the opportunity to talk to these...
48:29Yeah, well, I think we covered this one here.
48:33No, I haven't had a chance to.
48:36We think that this kind of concerns us and we have a major problem.
48:46the columnist situation that Dave had.
48:49Dave Kennedy was still on his way to the Chief Economic Spokesman for the President of Europe, which he never, never was.
48:57You heard the conversation he had with him.
49:00We said to him, Dave, when you're there, you'll have an opportunity to do this and that.
49:04You did the work.
49:05Weren't you there, at least?
49:06Because I haven't had a job.
49:07Does he have any reason to think that he's representing the United States as our economic spokesman?
49:11No.
49:12No, he has reason to think that the other conspirators there in Brussels and Geneva have some relationship to him.
49:21I know, but that isn't the way, that just ain't the way he's getting it through to, or at least the way it's done is irritating Conway terribly, and we've just got to get, we've got to cut, we've got to get Kennedy down, that's all, on this point, because of the Conway problem.
49:35Yep.
49:36Conway cannot have another guy.
49:38You know, screwing around in his thing.
49:41How do you think it's going to happen?
49:46Let me talk to Dave Kennedy.
49:49No, sir.
49:51It won't work for me.
49:52Well, I think that... Well, I think we've got to talk to Kennedy, too, though.
49:56Yeah.
49:58Kennedy's got to know that he's... You'll find him in history.
50:02You'll find him.
50:10I think it's better, I, I'm delighted to have Flanagan there, but I think I could do it better alone with Conway.
50:16Because he doesn't, he trusts me, I think.
50:18Yeah, but get Flanagan into it.
50:19Well, I think it's going to be Flanagan that's got to take it.
50:23Okay.
50:23I, uh, I'm doing it with, uh, I just didn't want Conway to dig himself into a hole.
50:33Well, the point is, Conway has got to be in charge here.
50:37Well, but even if Kennedy were the chief spokesman in Europe, he could still be under Congress.
50:42And that's who's at the problem, if Kennedy's the chief spokesman.
50:46We want him to be the chief spokesman.
50:48But even if he were the chief spokesman among our European ambassadors,
50:53but he would still clearly be under Connolly.
50:55I mean, he is not independent of the direction of Connolly.
51:00That's the point to make, and that would never give him any reason to believe.
51:03See, you put Connolly in a very odd position.
51:05His predecessor is Secretary of the Treasury.
51:07You tell him he's under him.
51:09Kennedy doesn't put himself under people.
51:12And he doesn't?
51:13No.
51:14And Kennedy is a guy that pushes his own position very hard, as you know.
51:18In all these things, he's pushed himself in very hard.
51:21I think...
51:24Our problem is the guy that matters to us is Cosby, not Kennedy.
51:29I don't care about Kennedy.
51:30If he quits, it's OK. That's what I think you've got to understand.
51:34That's why I think it is important, incidentally, you better get Flanagan.
51:37See, Flanagan is going to be the economic man.
51:40Getting Peterson out has been a hell of a thing, because he doesn't have a hand in the ass in this field.
51:47But I think that, uh, will you arrange this today, that, uh, I want Connolly to be sure that Connolly is, no matter what the problem Connolly has, see, if he sees the problem with Kennedy, and whatever Connolly wants, he gets.
52:01That's what we have to do.
52:03And Kennedy must be told about the day, that's, that's understandable.
52:06Jesus Christ also, he can't, uh, be waddling around, uh, he ought to get over the hell there, too, you know, is he?
52:14We made a mistake there.
52:15We didn't try to get him.
52:16We were trying to give him a job.
52:19Well, we did tell him that the other ambassadors there would have
52:33that he has some supervisory role.
52:36That has nothing to do with his relation to Conlon.
52:38I mean, it's the idea that an ambassador has an independent position and that he conducts his own economic policy over there is just nuts.
52:49No ambassador conducts his own policy, period.
52:52I mean, he thinks he has six other ambassadors under him.
52:56See, Kennedy is, that's the whole point.
52:57Kennedy is not just an ambassador.
52:59Kennedy is also a
53:01member of the president's cabinet, you know, all those kinds of things.
53:04Well, the thing that needs to be spelled out is... And he's retained his ambassador of arms.
53:09Yeah, well, but that becomes him.
53:11No, that becomes him, Mr. President, that there was an exchange on.
53:15But that's not the problem.
53:17The problem is to get into Kennedy's head, that he's under Connolly, and to get into Connolly's head, that he is in charge.
53:27If that is established...
53:29How, how Kennedy feels respectful in the church we have in Geneva is really so unimportant.
53:35The OECD ambassador, or the, it isn't the OECD, it's the guy we have in Geneva with that trade party.
53:43I don't, we have ACP reports of his.
53:47Well, why don't you do this?
53:48Let's, let's plan it and try to sort out the doses because we've got to have, we're replacing church with, or they're supposed to, but the main thing is
54:00First, what Connolly thinks of the whole thing, you understand?
54:04Well, apparently what Kennedy did was a goddamn stupid thing.
54:08He went over to Connolly as a sort of an equal, and he was going to make a treaty with Connolly as to how they were going to share their responsibilities.
54:16Oh, is that right?
54:25If Connolly, if Kennedy had gone over there, Minato, on each of the negotiations with Kennedy...
54:31He was never told anything like that.
54:33No, and I talked to Connolly before we appointed Kennedy, and Connolly was perfectly happy.
54:38In fact, Connolly thought Kennedy could play the same role there as he did in the trade negotiations with Japan as our guy against the State Department.
54:49It's when Kennedy started putting himself on the level of equality in Congress that I think that... Bob, now this is one you can't throw off till tomorrow, today.
54:58We've got to hold this.
55:02I think we can handle this.
55:06Work out a deal, huh?
55:08And how then?
55:10I'll be glad to help with that, because we can work out.
55:16The major thing that has to be worked out is the Connelly-Kennedy relation.
55:19If the other thing gets into abstruse, I'm on this one.
55:27Hi, how are you?
55:29Presley, how are you?
55:31I should tell you about Arthur.
55:34Yeah.
55:34Right, right.
55:35And all that.
55:37I watched what he did.
55:39A fantastic job.
55:40And so I'm going to carry that to the phone.
55:45And you ought to hit it.
55:47It was just great.
55:48Oh, it was a prayer.
55:49A prayer.
55:50I told you to sit down and pray.
55:53Well, here I go.
55:55But you really, it was really fantastic, I must say.
55:59Thanks very much, let's see you again.
56:03Well, you've been through a hard time.
56:19Well, I think it hasn't been easy, but it's a terrible time.
56:30Well, it's a terrible time.
56:32It's a terrible time.
56:37I trust some of the tragedies of those countries down there.
56:43These are what you basically thought these countries
56:51And so they fight each other.
56:54They fought each other after the Slovak invasion or partition, at least.
57:04They fought again in 1962.
57:05Now they fight again.
57:08I guess it will never end.
57:10They just continue to fight.
57:14Well, what I think is about to happen is
57:18have some kind of combination of the three countries, something like the European Community.
57:24I've, uh, I've been told that I could be talking about it, well-earned about the tax, you know.
57:32Well, they make noises, you know, wanting food on that, and wanting to eat bread.
57:37And Mujib, I'm trying to think of his, uh, it's not the, some favorable reaction from
57:48the people I've talked to, and not, not necessarily, but the Indians must be terribly, and even though they know that they are so big today, particularly the help of Russians, not over the past today as we, but on the other hand, they must be
58:09concerned about the relations of their neighbors.
58:13And also, looking down the road 20 years from now, they've got that great, big, honest crowd of China hanging over them.
58:23The Chinese may sometimes forget, I'm not sure, but they never forget.
58:28They live too long.
58:30And they hate the Indians because of the 1962 war.
58:39It's a mutual... Oh, it's a mutual...
58:41It's more a fear on the part of the Indians, I think, than hatred.
58:44They're really afraid of China.
58:47And there's a reason to be awful.
58:48China, not now, won't do anything.
58:50But looking down the road, any sense of history, they need to have that mutualism.
58:56So India needs to...
58:58It needs particularly not to waste its substance.
59:04to fight Pakistan when they got China in there.
59:12That's their problem.
59:14They don't consider Pakistan a problem.
59:18China is their problem.
59:21They've got to maintain quite a force for that.
59:24I don't think that we deterred them.
59:31Let me give you a little feel of
59:36at this point.
59:43I know you've talked to, you're going on the committee today.
59:49Yeah, 2.30, and I'm looking for a lot of experience.
59:51Well, I'll tell them on Andrews' papers the rest of the time.
59:56Are you a lawyer?
59:58Well, I can't give a splash example, but
1:00:02I've got it conceded, but what my general approach is to be that this isn't the way I looked at it in India.
1:00:12And these were sincere cables that I sent.
1:00:15I have to admit, gentlemen, I didn't know all of the ramifications.
1:00:21No ambassador knows all what's going on.
1:00:23Everything happens so fast.
1:00:25And I know Boston was also here to tell the wrap-up cases.
1:00:34So I think with regard to the Bangladesh thing, as you know, we cannot do anything on that until after the Peking visit for reasons we're all aware.
1:01:05I think it's important for, if you would, to say that you're back there, well, we've discussed this matter, and it's a matter which is under discussion in Washington, but we cannot indicate that we've made a decision, or will make a decision.
1:01:22I would keep it loose.
1:01:24You can, of course, say that they're all...
1:01:28which is true that the President is one who recognizes his assistance to China and indicates the practical facts of international life.
1:01:38He recognizes that.
1:01:40But the question here as to what should be done, what I think would be bad would be to have the Indians, in order to embarrass us in China, leak out a story.
1:01:51The president has made the decision to recognize Benjamin Echler as not a political actor.
1:01:58That's right.
1:01:59That's what you have already said.
1:02:00I'm afraid they'll leave.
1:02:02That's the problem.
1:02:03Well, I do.
1:02:05And what you said is an improvement over our previous formulation.
1:02:10I wanted to be able to go back to something.
1:02:12The previous formulation, as you know, has been it is not now under consideration.
1:02:18Which I think the words are.
1:02:22I can say it's being discussed, but there's no decision to make about it.
1:02:44with him, the rest, and he's looking at it in a very pragmatic way.
1:02:50I'll just put it that way.
1:02:51Does that sound all right to you now?
1:02:53Yeah, I think a better way to put it is to say we are not challenged in reality.
1:02:57Yeah, that's my way of saying we're pragmatic.
1:03:02We don't challenge the realities, but we are.
1:03:06I'd say now we haven't made a decision as to when or how or what, but it's under active discussion.
1:03:17See, I understand.
1:03:19You know what we're going to do.
1:03:21Oh, but then everybody knows that.
1:03:25The problem is the Indians are leaving it out.
1:03:27The deliberators are destroying the Chinese.
1:03:29That's right.
1:03:31I never wanted to do that.
1:03:33The Chinese are leaving it out.
1:03:36I want you to know, and I realize, it is much more important than anything to do with India.
1:03:44Uh, it's, uh, India's in this long range, and this China thing must take precedence in that direction.
1:03:52So if you'll resolve that.
1:03:53Yeah.
1:03:54That's all.
1:03:55That's the formulation that I'll... Now, the other point is, on the, which you may be asked about, the press,
1:04:03I think, Henry, if you could give Ken the, not before he's seen it, but if you've got the world report, I think, pretty well formulated.
1:04:14That's pretty outstanding.
1:04:17The interview?
1:04:18No.
1:04:18We have the world report that we're going to put out.
1:04:21Oh, you have a report.
1:04:23It's coming out next week, but that sort of takes up basic principles, which is that we will open discussions of the
1:04:33Well, the other thing is we are prepared to have a serious dialogue with the Indian government in which we will make our contribution and then have them prepare us to put our relations on a new foundation.
1:04:44Yeah, and that new foundation, that's our good relations.
1:04:49Can I have a formulation of that before I leave the meeting?
1:04:52I have it in my office.
1:04:54Now, is that something that I can tell the foreign secretary?
1:05:00But look, it's going to be published next Tuesday.
1:05:03Can you wait?
1:05:04Oh, yes, sure.
1:05:05I'll wait to see.
1:05:06You're going to be asked for the Congress to date on the 7th.
1:05:10I think you should say, well...
1:05:13What should you say to that?
1:05:16I'd be very conciliatory that, well, we're in the same situation, and that after all the iffy that you know in Pakistan, it's practically nil.
1:05:27Now, I mean, as far as India is concerned, that it is the policy of this country to...
1:05:34to stop aid when military action is being undertaken by any country, running or not.
1:05:44Now that that military action has subsided, that we are, we can now re-evaluate our relationship and work on the relationship.
1:05:52I think the other point that I, Howard, so for purposes of your talk, Secretary, your friend Mrs. Kennedy,
1:06:01First, a little background in regards to why we're in this state.
1:06:06And second, it's entirely different from what the accepted wisdom indicates.
1:06:14I don't suppose anybody's got a world report.
1:06:18But the data state we made in the United States, there was a big mistake.
1:06:21And there were probably several of them.
1:06:26was in my reassurance when she was here.
1:06:31I remember, you know, we, at the dinner, we all bought that Memorandum.
1:06:36Henry approved the Memorandum.
1:06:37They came for me.
1:06:38And in fact, the talking points I used with Mrs. Gandhi came right out of the State Department's box.
1:06:44It was there that I reassured her in London.
1:06:47She arrived in the state, you know, that I made at the, out here in South Lawn.
1:06:52I reassured her in the coast.
1:06:53You know, I said what a great lady she was, not an heir to his daughter, but a great woman, a great leader in her own right.
1:07:00And when she was here, I said, Mr. President, Mr. President, Prime Minister, you reassured her we're going to get $500 million in aid.
1:07:06We'll get Yaya to withdraw unilaterally from the border.
1:07:09We'll do all these things.
1:07:11and indicated at no time in my conversation that a war came.
1:07:18That it would be necessary for us to read that.
1:07:21In other words, my feeling is that that probably led her on.
1:07:27Led her on.
1:07:28She probably didn't need to know a lot of these, but I think that if the United States, if we were to restrain her at all,
1:07:39uh that probably we should have i haven't told her that uh well we we we want to help you with this refugee problem we've got 500 million dollars committed and so forth and so on and so on but if war comes we didn't take their computer uh which we didn't say now uh that's past history however
1:08:03At the present time, I think the things that ought to be emphasized, and you, when you're talking to the Indians, is this, that they should not make a greater mistake than to take me on as one who's mad, and this has got to be your bad, and hell, I'm not mad at this kind of thing.
1:08:22I'm sucking her under too much, as it turned out.
1:08:26The point is, I just didn't want a war, but the main point I want you
1:08:31They haven't had a better friend in this country than I. I, as a congressman, as a senator, as vice president, and when I was out of office, have made speeches for Indian aid, have always voted for Indian aid, $750 million.
1:08:46They don't like to call it aid, but they have won a lot.
1:08:51I have supported India.
1:08:52I have taken the line that India is the largest free world country, must have an opportunity.

Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on People's Republic of China and Press relations

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