Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 664 › Conversation 664-005

Nixon & Downing on Foreign Service and William Rogers

Wednesday, February 2, 1972 · 9:14 AM–9:15 AM ET · Oval Office

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Downing, Thomas N.Conversation664-005 on Tape 664 (tape position 00:19:11–00:19:57)StartWednesday, February 2, 1972 at 9:14 AMEndWednesday, February 2, 1972 at 9:15 AMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 664-005 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Representative Thomas N. Downing discussed the loyalty of the Foreign Service and its implications for Secretary of State William Rogers's position. The conversation touched upon political maneuvering regarding Senator Edmund Muskie’s potential vulnerability on a specific, undisclosed issue. Nixon used the moment to frame the situation as a critical test of his administration's ability to withstand political pressure.

Audio

Download MP3 (part 1) · 169.3 MB ·Download MP3 (part 2) · 41.4 MB

This conversation has not yet been cut into its own clip, so the player above contains the full tape segment shared with neighbouring conversations. It begins about 00:19:11 into the tape and ends around 00:19:57.

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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19:11That would be the major use of having Rogers out front.
19:14Because unfortunately the Foreign Service is more loyal to the Secretary than to the President.
19:23Yeah, there is no reason for them.
19:25There's not a problem.
19:33No reason, but we should expect it, I guess.
19:36I think if we can get a plan, but the other possibility is that now Muskie, who obviously rushed into this thing, might get confused and not know exactly how to deal with it, too, which would be kind of interesting.
19:51Well, I think also, let me say, well, it's a good test for us as to whether or not whenever we've got a tough one, it'll stand up.

NARA Description

On February 2, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Thomas N. Downing met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:14 am to 9:15 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 664-005 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 664-5

Date: February 2, 1972
Time: 9:14 am - 9:15 am
Location: Oval Office

The President talked with Thomas N. Downing.

[See Conversation No. 20-19]

Also recorded on February 2, 1972

  • 020-016 8:51 AM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 8:51 am and 9:10 am.
  • 020-017 9:10 AM · 58 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Charles S. Gubser talked on the telephone from 9:10 am to 9:13 am.
  • 664-002 9:10 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Charles S. Gubser met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:10 am to 9:13 am.
  • 020-018 9:13 AM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:13 am and 9:14 am.
  • 664-003 9:13 AM · 34 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:13 am and 9:14 am.
  • 664-004 9:13 AM · 33 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:13 am and 9:14 am.
  • 020-019 9:14 AM · 47 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Thomas N. Downing talked on the telephone from 9:14 am to 9:15 am.
  • 664-006 9:15 AM · 49 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Ronald L. Ziegler, Henry A. Kissinger, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:15 am to 10:05 am.

All 71 conversations from February 2, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 664-005, February 2, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/664-005 (accessed October 12, 2026).