Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 664 › Conversation 664-013
Nixon, McCormack & White House photographer on Vietnam War and Foreign Policy
Wednesday, February 2, 1972 · 12:41 PM–12:43 PM ET · Oval Office
AI Summary
President Nixon met with former Speaker of the House John W. McCormack to discuss foreign policy, national defense, and the President's upcoming diplomatic trips to the PRC and the USSR. They reviewed the status of the Vietnam War, including potential peace proposals and ceasefire negotiations, while also evaluating the necessity of a robust U.S. defense budget. Additionally, the pair touched upon broader geopolitical themes, including U.S. relations with India and the role of women in politics.
- Vietnam War
- Foreign Policy
- National Defense
- People's Republic of China
- John W. McCormack
Audio
Download MP3 (part 1) · 169.3 MB ·Download MP3 (part 2) · 41.4 MB
This conversation has not yet been cut into its own clip, so the player above contains the full tape segment shared with neighbouring conversations. It begins about 01:34:48 into the tape and ends around 01:52:55.
Transcript (AI-generated)
This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.
Download transcript (.txt) · JSON data
· Timestamps are positions within the full tape recording.
1:34:57Do we feel worried about King?
1:35:00He's a good soldier.
1:35:01He just wants to do everything, but it's awfully hard to know what to do in that particular place.
1:35:08But I think if we move at a measured pace, he's waiting for me.
1:35:12After this meeting, I've got something.
1:35:14He'll read this out.
1:35:15He's a patient captain in the meantime.
1:35:18He's removed at a measured pace.
1:35:24The Indians have their own reasons to get close.
1:35:26That's why I called him and slaughtered him off.
1:35:29The Indians have no interest in the Russian satellite.
1:35:32Well, look, the point that I make is cheating.
1:35:36which I think we've got to realize that poor Americans, we are always worried.
1:35:40John Cox is very outspoken on this point.
1:35:42He's absolutely right.
1:35:44We are always so passionately worried that our foreign policy is going to so enrage another country that they will refuse to accept our aid.
1:35:55Now, there hasn't been anybody.
1:35:58I'd like to deeply see what the ambassador says.
1:36:01Bobby, I would like to.
1:36:07an interesting position.
1:36:09Keating recalled when he and I came here as freshmen of Congress in 1947, we were among perhaps 10 Republicans who were supporters of aid to India, and I supported all my life, my political life, still do, and so forth and so on.
1:36:23But I said, well, I'm not going to support aid to any country that is at that time engaged in military action, period.
1:36:30So, but then I made the point to Keating, I said, look,
1:36:34I said, India, I said, rather than, I said, the point that some of our friends in the States say, how can we reassure the Indians?
1:36:44And you know, they all look at them, how can the Indians reassure us?
1:36:47Because basically, I said, look at India.
1:36:50What are their options?
1:36:52They have three superpowers that they have to deal with.
1:36:57One is China, the other is Russia, and the other is the United States.
1:37:01Now,
1:37:03The only one that they are sure has absolutely no designs on territory, economically, politically, is the United States of America.
1:37:12We proved it by $10 billion over 20 years without a string and got a kick in the tail of the United Nations every place else.
1:37:20They cannot say that about the Chinese reserve that they lived in in 1962.
1:44:55We'll be right back.
1:46:48Could you not be locked up in a jail cell?
1:46:51Could not be locked in a jail cell?
1:48:36I'm sorry.
1:49:13Thank you.
1:50:09I don't know what you mean, sir.
1:50:12I don't know what you mean.
1:52:55Right now, they've already turned you in every time.
NARA Description
On February 2, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, unknown person(s), John W. McCormack, White House photographer, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:41 pm and 12:43 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 664-013 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 664-13
Date: February 2, 1972
Time: Unknown between 12:41 pm and 12:43 pm
Location: Oval Office
The President talked with an unknown person.
Request for Gen. Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
[The President talked with Haig at an unknown time between 12:41 pm and 12:43 pm.]
Henry A. Kissinger’s schedule
-Location
John W. McCormack
-Visit to President
-Briefing by Haig
-Haig’s schedule
The President met with McCormack at 12:43 pm; the White House photographer was present at
the beginning of the meeting.
Greetings
-Pearl M. Bailey meeting
-Request for refreshments
-McCormack schedule
-Feelings for McCormack
McCormack role
-Bipartisan meetings
-Lyndon B. Johnson
-President’s upcoming trip to the People’s Republic of China [PRC]
-Carl B. Albert
-Previous conversation with the President
-Bryce N. Harlow
-Relationship with the President
-General briefings
-Representative of US
-Availability
-Anastasio Somoza Debayle
-Death of Danish King Frederik IX
-Johnson
-Johnson-Theodore (“Teddy”) Roosevelt
-[Duke of Windsor] Edward VIII
-Representative
-Somoza
-McCormack meeting
-Location and timing
-Jim Fitzgerald role
-Attendance at West Point
-Somoza’s relationship with Fitzgerald
An unknown man entered at an unknown time after 12:43 pm.
Gratitude
The unknown man left at an unknown time before 1:00 pm.
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
[Personal Returnable]
[Duration: 24s ]
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
******************************************************************************
National Security Council [NSC] meeting
-Vietnam
-North Vietnamese attack
-South Vietnam
-Peace proposals
-Further concessions
-Communist government in South Vietnam
-Gen. Nguyen Van Thieu resignation
-Upcoming elections
-International supervision
-Withdrawal of US forces
-Ceasefire and prisoners of war [POWs]
-McCormack view
-Advice to Johnson
-Free elections
-International supervision
-United Nations [UN]
-Ceasefire
-Support
-North and South Vietnam
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 4
[Personal Returnable]
[Duration: 47s ]
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 4
******************************************************************************
The President’s forthcoming trips to the PRC and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
[USSR]
Congressional concerns
-Views of McCormack and President
-Similarity
-House un-American Activities Committee [HUAC]
-McCormack’s support as majority leader
State of Nation
-McCormack’s opinion
-Pearl Harbor
-Recovery
-Amount of time
-Current defense
-Need for readiness
-Defense budget
-John C. Stennis and F. Edward Hebert
-McCormack’s recent talk with Hebert
-Lucious Mendel Rivers
-Need for strength
-Gerald R. Ford
-Support for the President’s January 25, 1972 peace proposals
-Hebert
-Modern warfare
-Preparations
-McCormack’s comments at dedication
-Cook
-Pearl Harbor
-Drawbacks
-Preparation
-Necessity
-Need for top spot
-Potential encouragement to US enemies
-Importance emphasized
Bull entered at an unknown time after 12:43 pm.
The President’s schedule
Bull left at an unknown time before 1:00 pm.
PRC trip
-Timing
-Europeans
-Japanese
-Schedule
-The President’s upcoming meetings
-Information on PRC
-President’s reading
-McCormack
-PRC ideology
-PRC women
-Radicalism in politics
Women
-Comparisons to men in politics
-Emotion compared to reason
-PRC
-Clothing
-McCormack
-Women’s liberation
Farewells
-Return visit
-Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon
-Catholics
-Knights of Malta
-History
-The Crusades
-Military
-Hospitallers of St. John
-M. Harriet (Joyce) McCormack
-Pope Pius XII
-Feeling for communism
McCormack left at 1:00 pm.Also recorded on February 2, 1972
- 664-007 12:16 PM · 49 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:16 pm and 12:18 pm.
- 664-008 12:18 PM · 16 min — President Richard M. Nixon, John D. Ehrlichman, Stephen B. Bull, Pearl M. Bailey, J. Willis Hurst, Ross Reid, Dr. James M. Hundley, Campbell Moses, M. Frederisk Arkus, Herbert Cornell, Kenneth R. Cole, Jr., James H. Cavanaugh, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:18 pm to 12:34 pm.
- 664-009 12:35 PM · 41 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Oval Office of the White House at 12:35 pm.
- 664-010 12:35 PM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Richard W. Mallary, Richard K. Cook, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:35 pm to 12:41 pm.
- 664-011 12:41 PM · 22 sec — President Richard M. Nixon, Stephen B. Bull, and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:41 pm and 12:43 pm.
- 664-012 12:41 PM · 49 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:41 pm and 12:43 pm.
- 664-014 1:00 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:00 pm and 1:03 pm.
- 664-015 1:03 PM · 35 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Ronald L. Ziegler, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 1:03 pm to 1:36 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 664-013, February 2, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/664-013 (accessed October 1, 2026).