Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 664 › Conversation 664-015
Nixon, Haldeman & Bull on Vietnam War and Edmund Muskie
Wednesday, February 2, 1972 · 1:03 PM–1:36 PM ET · Oval Office · 16 min
AI Summary
President Nixon met with H.R. Haldeman and Stephen Bull to discuss several key issues. They reviewed the administration's response to Senator Muskie's recent speech on Vietnam and the press conference strategy. The conversation also touched upon welfare reform, with Nixon expressing a desire for pragmatic solutions and Congressional action, and the challenges and effectiveness of various presidential commissions. Additionally, they briefly discussed the funeral of two slain police officers and the President's schedule, including a potential trip to Camp David.
Audio
This clip was extracted from the full tape recording by Easy Nixon.
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Position in tape: 01:54:53 – 02:29:57
part B, 13:55
664a.mp3
664b.mp3
NARA Description
On February 2, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Ronald L. Ziegler, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 1:03 pm to 1:36 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 664-015 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 664-15
Date: February 2, 1972
Time: 1:03 pm - 1:36 pm
Location: Oval Office
The President met with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman.
John W. McCormack
-Career
-House of Representatives
John B. Connally
-Productivity Commission
-Business in 1990 speech by President, February 7, 1972
-Connally suggestion
-Connally speeches
-William L. Safire role
-President’s instructions
Welfare reform
-Compromise
-John D. Ehrlichman
-Abraham A. Ribicoff role
-Ronald W. Reagan supporters
-Daniel P. (“Pat”) Moynihan supporters
-Benefits to President
-Reagan
-Guaranteed income
Social issues
-Ribicoff’s view
-Democrat strategy
-Medicaid and Medicare
-Lack of testing
-Contributions of President
-Historical perspective
-People’s Republic of China [PRC] initiative
-Social reform
Ronald L. Ziegler entered at 1:06 pm.
Press conference
-Interest in Edmund S. Muskie’s Vietnam peace planShow the rest of the log (196 more lines)
Muskie speech, February 2, 1972
-Attendance
-Number of press
-Citizens committee
-John O. Pastore
-Robert W. Scott
-Leonard Woodcock
-Esther Peterson
-Myrlie (Beasley) Evers
-Medgar Evers
-Ecology speech
-Unknown Presbyterian Church for women
-Vietnam problems
-Clark M. Clifford role
-The environment
-Media coverage
-Criticism by Muskie
-Proposal for peace
-Withdrawal of troops
-Saigon government
-Patrick J. Buchanan rebuttal
-Proposed ceasefire
-Henry A. Kissinger
-Clifford role
-Possible communication with Muskie
-The President’s recent talk with Kissinger
-Prisoners of war [POWs]
-Withdrawal
-Need for rebuttal
-Possible reaction to Muskie’s remarks
-Press questions
-Thrust
-White House staff
-Gerald L. Warren
-Diane Sawyer
-Relation of Muskie to President
-Possible story by the networks
-Rebuttal by administration
-Kissinger role
-Content
-Playing politics with peace
-Charles W. Colson
-President’s instructions
-Muskie awareness of proposals
-John A. Scali role
-Media coverage
-William P. Rogers’s role
-Content
-Muskie’s view
-Rebuttal
-Connally
-Barry M. Goldwater
-Connally
-Rogers’s role
-Scali
-Ziegler
-Muskie
-Initiative by administration
-Support for peace proposals
-North Vietnamese action
Ziegler left at 1:13 pm.
-Buchanan
-Public reaction to the President’s peace proposals
-Haldeman’s children’s reaction
-Wall Street Journal article
-”Bad rap” for President
-Muskie
Justice Department suit against Associated Milk Producers, Inc [AMPI]
-John N. Mitchell
-Newspaper article
-Statement by Attorney General
-Contributions
-The President’s previous conversation with unknown Chicago contact
-Republican National Committee [RNC] [?]
-Mitchell
-Ralph Nader role
-Lawsuit [Nader v. Butz]
-Fund investigation
-Anti-trust action
Death of the King of Nepal [King Mahendra Bir Bikram]
-Raymond K. Price, Jr.
-President’s instructions
-Note of condolence to Crown Prince Birendra
-Kissinger
-Relationship with the President
-Trip to Washington
Justice Department suit against AMPI
-Ehrlichman role
-President’s instructions to Haldeman
-Connally reaction
-Effect on administration position
-Mitchell
John A. Volpe
-Television show
-Mitchell
-Price
Trade
-Peter M. Flanigan
-Haldeman’s upcoming conversation
-Peter G. Peterson
Rogers
-Instructions
-Kissinger public image
-Purpose
-Publicity
-Focus on President
-Election
-Problems in management
-Haldeman
-Agreement with the President
Stephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 1:13 pm.
Funeral of policemen [Gregory P. Foster and Rocco Laurie]
-Attendance at funeral
-John V. (“Jack”) Brennan
-Background of policemen
-Vietnam service record
-Race of policemen
-Attendance
-Flowers
-Call to relatives
-Attendance
-Price’s office
-Notes of condolence
-Brennan
Bull left at an unknown time before 1:36 pm.
Social issues
-Ribicoff’s concern
-Democrat approach
-Use of massive programs
-Russell B. Long
-Ehrlichman concerns
-Public relations
-Pragmatism
-Elliot Richardson
-Congressional action
-Public relations
-Adoption of program
-Previous statements by President
-Adequacy of program
-Support on campuses
-History of support
-Shifts in attitude
-State of the Union address
Commissions
-Connally
-Productivity Commission
-Participation
-Frustration
-Drawbacks
-Possible burden keeping commissions happy
-Meetings with President
-President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board [PFIAB]
-Kissinger
-Timing
-President’s trip to the PRC
President’s schedule
-History
-Kissinger role
-Difficulty
-Presentations
-Award
-Medals of Honor
-Congressional contact
-Drawbacks
-Complaints
-Disappointed appointment seekers
-Effect
-Other administrations
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
-Cabinet
-National Security Council [NSC]
-Press conferences
-Camp David trip
-Timing
-Michael J. Mansfield
-Reception
Haldeman left at 1:36 pm.Transcript (AI-generated)
This transcript was made by an AI model listening to the recording (gemini-3.8-flash) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Speaker names are the model's inference from the voices and the participant list. Words and names can still be wrong — verify against the audio and the finding aid before citing.
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NixonNow that you have [unintelligible]
Haldeman[unintelligible] Well, they look as good as we can say, I guess. The only old fashioned [unintelligible]
Nixon[unintelligible] the best show he can make.
NixonDo you have a chance to mention to Connally that [unintelligible]
HaldemanThat problem with the [unintelligible]
Nixon[unintelligible] with the trade commission?
HaldemanNo, because you you said you wanted to talk to him. So, I thought about that, but then I wasn't really sure.
NixonSafire is really bothered about it, probably. All right, Safire needs to give it into my own language. Safire didn't get any instructions [unintelligible] he wants. And Safire thinks that it's just [unintelligible]
NixonThe purpose of a goddamn public hearing isn't just to talk about it. It's to be doing it for the purpose of trying to rally assistance and say, "Look, goddamn it, we must stay on this till we can." What the hell difference does it make? The only thing that really matters is to be there.
HaldemanRight. Yeah.
Nixon[unintelligible] you agree that that's the proper term?
HaldemanNo question. It's all that can be done. This gonna happen, it just [unintelligible]
NixonWell, the problem is [unintelligible] that's the problem of all organizations [unintelligible]
NixonDid you find out who went up there with that group? You got their names? Well, those individuals certainly deserve [unintelligible] the men and the policemen, and the marines would certainly like to be at dinner. I'm sure that they [unintelligible] One was a Negro. Is that right?
BullYes, sir.
NixonThe other was white.
BullYes, sir.
NixonYeah. Well, at any rate, whoever went up there with those with those flowers and with the wreath or I'm not sure if it was a wreath and expressed their views to those families, it was [unintelligible] press, wasn't there?
BullYeah.
NixonGood coverage? Whatever, so, I suggest that [unintelligible] fine. Good. That'll be fine. You've got the Price Office to prepare a brief [unintelligible] to Dallas, too?
BullYes, sir, I believe did. Many of friends sent letters with him as he flew everywhere.
NixonMarvelous. That's all done. I just want to be sure it's covered. Thank you.
BullYes, sir.
Nixon[unintelligible]
NixonSo, is he concerned about the social issues?
HaldemanApparently. And just well, his feeling that they're they're on the wrong wicket on this, their approach to it is wrong.
HaldemanHe says we come with up with these massive programs and we don't know whether they'll work or not. We throw them in, and then they they fail, and that screws the whole thing up.
NixonWell, we came up with a massive program. That was, that's kind of his feeling.
HaldemanAll right.
NixonI don't mind that, so. I'm delighted.
HaldemanWell, but it really gets to what you were what you always working to get at anyway. Senator Long, sure, on the other side.
Nixon[unintelligible]
HaldemanWell, John was worried about the PR side, that it would you know, we'd get hit by the press for dropping the program, and I don't think we will.
NixonNo, we say I'm not sure if Hurst did it. What the whole idea is that the thing is very pragmatic. The exactly Elliot Elliot the last time, and saying "Well, we shouldn't give up too soon." But I I just think they'll be pragmatic. It's so what?
NixonI want to get I want to get something for this Congress to act. They had 2 and 1/2 years, and they won't act. They will act on this, therefore, we'll go on this. And screw the work the deal of the, "Well, the President gave up on a program, now we got, we got." He didn't give up. The President launched an imaginative program, and fought as and went with as much as Congress would allow.
HaldemanYeah. Half a loaf is better than none. No question.
NixonI think if he would fairly debate the problem.
HaldemanAnd you say, clearly, that that on the public record, that that any change in welfare would be an improvement, and that you were for anything that could clear, or also.
HaldemanAnd you said that we don't know whether our program will work. So you're your position per se is: we're perfectly willing to test it. Let's see. Maybe [unintelligible]
NixonThe attitude in the university campuses, well, they are not surely still not for us, we all know. But you know you do get a lot of take a lot of get a lot of credit for coolness among schools. You realize how different it is? How different it is. I want to go as a hero to [unintelligible]
NixonWell, of course, two years ago was terrible. A year ago was a problem. It sure was.
HaldemanIt sure was.
HaldemanThe difference is just night and day. It's finally just the thing you said it should be. It becomes a place of learning instead of [unintelligible]
NixonFrankly, if talk to you that's the productivity commission council. He realizes that that you know, I mean, I have no doubt pretty confident [unintelligible] no matter how bad the the art and [unintelligible] That's what you thought that there was nothing to talk about.
NixonOur own people are on these. Yeah, I know.
HaldemanSure.
NixonI was thinking about that, we ought to really examine very, very coldly, this whole approach to commissions. I had thought of having [unintelligible] commission on productivity. Aren't you agreed?
HaldemanYeah. I-I-you have a you have a mixed bag in there. First there is a there is a thirst of people to participate. And they're low in spirit. On the other hand,
Nixonthere is a terrible frustration, I would think, of being on commissions and knowing that they don't, they don't mean a goddamn thing.
HaldemanWell, if they don't participate in this, they'll find something else to participate in, and that's to get us in trouble and attack commissions. Either, are a burden on us to keep them happy, sorry.
NixonNow you've got another one, your Foreign Intelligence Board, you know with, John Connally. I don't know that if anyone wants you to meet with them.
HaldemanI'm not going to do that, sure they're not.
NixonAll right, now.
HaldemanYeah. [crosstalk] Before China. Yeah, tomorrow, or probably not then. We've got a lot of them.
NixonAnd ah there's just nothing you can accomplish with them.
HaldemanI can show you a schedule, how the hell do you know from the first year, whether you get everything Henry suggested?
NixonWell, not just everything Henry suggested. Did everybody else suggest it? That's what I heard. We just ran like hell. You remember this gives you
HaldemanI remember, it's those days, it was something every 15 minutes, and rushing, bounce from one to the next, and keep everybody [unintelligible]
Nixon[unintelligible] school jobs and that.
HaldemanYou know, you're right. God damn, it was awful, wasn't it?
NixonOh, look, those days, we'd look back, some of those schedules, it's unbelievable, some of the
HaldemanNot just days, but weeks, because then you didn't have any you know, we didn't have the Wednesday-off plan, or or the weekend-off prayer. And also, you liked it's rushing through everything, medals of honor and everybody gets everybody the sense, you know, we can just kind of award, kind of award
NixonYeah. And, the congressional thing was unbelievable that, remember that? And how many people I had to call, or see, and
HaldemanAnd it did no, what is it? If that- If everybody had then said, "Gee, isn't it great, you got such a president who sees everybody, and spends his time talking to people, and all that." That maybe it'd been worthwhile, but nobody did. All they did is the people that didn't get in, argued that you weren't seeing anybody.
NixonThe congressmen were bitching.
HaldemanYeah.
NixonBusinessmen were bitching, remember?
HaldemanYeah. And there's something to the fact that if you let anybody in, then the guy who doesn't get in bitches, and you create an impression that you're not seeing anybody. Or, if you close, if you carry it to its extreme, and not see anybody at all, and get less complaints about not seeing people, than you do by seeing a lot of people. Good point. Because if you don't see, if you don't see my associates, then I don't mind if you don't see me, but when you see him, then I get mad that you didn't see me.
NixonAnd frankly, do you think Dirksen, the way to talk about [unintelligible] So, what's get out [unintelligible]
HaldemanAll right, well look back at it. Cabinet officers would scream apparently for photos, because they had [unintelligible] raving about, nevertheless, we had lots of meetings, too.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanThey would dream of it, because they didn't want, I don't know, birds.
NixonSo with us, where we are carrying that well, too, our our organization is working better and better.
HaldemanWell, he has such a structured schedule, letting stuff go through all that routine. You had to pay running through all the
NixonYou had a Cabinet meeting and the congressional leadership every week, a press conference every week. That's right.
HaldemanYes, he did.
NixonHow did sufferers, he didn't-
HaldemanHe worked at it totally a different way.
NixonYeah.
HaldemanWell,
NixonI like the Chinese stuff over here, and I've may decide, what's scheduled tomorrow morning? We got a scheduled photograph. Why can't we go to Camp David tomorrow early evening, after the after the 6:00, or 7:00?
HaldemanSure.
Also recorded on February 2, 1972
- 664-009 12:35 PM · 41 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Oval Office of the White House at 12:35 pm.
- 664-010 12:35 PM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Richard W. Mallary, Richard K. Cook, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:35 pm to 12:41 pm.
- 664-011 12:41 PM · 22 sec — President Richard M. Nixon, Stephen B. Bull, and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:41 pm and 12:43 pm.
- 664-012 12:41 PM · 49 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:41 pm and 12:43 pm.
- 664-013 12:41 PM · 18 min — President Richard M. Nixon, unknown person(s), John W. McCormack, White House photographer, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:41 pm and 12:43 pm.
- 664-014 1:00 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:00 pm and 1:03 pm.
- 020-020 1:40 PM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 1:40 pm and 1:48 pm.
- 318-008 1:40 PM · 6 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 1:40 pm and 1:48 pm.
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Cite this conversation
Conversation 664-015, February 2, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/664-015 (accessed November 14, 2026).