Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on Vietnam War and Edmund Muskie

1:56:09I talked to you over the night today.
1:56:55as a figure of the confidence.
1:56:59He's, I think, handled the psychological part of this impending offensive very well.
1:57:05She said to me, letting the people know, but not putting it in terms of going to frighten them, because they don't need to be frightened, just so that they're not surprised or so.
1:57:19And I think he's done it quite well.
1:57:31The problem is the system for compression of arms.
1:57:46We've got enough sitting on two arms.
1:57:48We don't even have to move any.
1:57:50No.
1:57:59That's a fairly easy thing.
1:58:00You just have to put bomb bays in there.
1:58:02Get the hell of a wood on it right now.
1:58:05In fact, they've got 13 additional ones that they used to have that they pulled out of that which must still be fitted.
1:58:12They used to have 16.
1:58:14Now they only have 47.
1:58:14Well, let's get it up to 16 right away, but higher and higher.
1:58:18You know what I mean?
1:58:19Just put it at a... You're going to sort of get more damn hard and put an order on it.
1:58:25And, but, but time is of the essence.
1:58:27You don't have to then leave at the 2 o'clock when the battle's over.
1:58:30Well, you, you'll have a chance this afternoon when you talk to him.
1:58:33Well, I'll tell him that, but then we'll put an order out on this later.
1:58:37You have to be aware that the enemy's following order and not ready to speak.
1:58:40You understand?
1:58:42Your pleasure.
1:58:43The ship, though, is already on its way.
1:58:46The ship has been ordered to be there by March 1st.
1:58:50That's, uh, that's great.
1:58:51You see, having four carriers would be, uh, that has a hundred planes.
1:59:03and let it help, for example, when we do it through a one-day strike, we can just put that on each more plane, so we know what the reason is.
1:59:14Well, this will be reassured to you, though, if you suggest the main part is deterrent.
1:59:20It isn't just reassurance.
1:59:21We've just got to tell them, fight like hell.
1:59:23This is their country, too.
1:59:24And their ability to get more aid and everything is going to depend upon their ability to handle this.
1:59:30And if they do, we can do it.
1:59:32If they don't, it's not going to be a big deal.
1:59:36Everybody's sitting here saying it's a fail.
1:59:37It's a joke.
1:59:38I don't think it's going to fail.
1:59:40I don't either.
1:59:40How do you feel?
1:59:41I don't know.
1:59:43Oh, I think we can contain anything that has got
1:59:50And if they can suffer, I think you suggested yesterday, anything like the ratio of casualties that they did last year, I think they can't keep taking that.
2:00:03They've taken about, last year, about 100,000 kills.
2:00:09They took 16,000 in lands on their own.
2:00:11Yeah.
2:00:11Yeah.
2:00:12And, uh...
2:00:20No.
2:00:23The tense of Lanshan was that there was next to no fighting after, after Mao put him in.
2:00:31No, exactly.
2:00:32Before he was gone.
2:00:33Yes.
2:00:34That's what we said we would do.
2:00:35Yes, exactly.
2:00:36We could have fought more times.
2:00:39No, it was very effective, the Lanshan operation.
2:00:43Very effective.
2:00:45And what do you think how it was reported?
2:00:49Oh, Cambodian.
2:00:51Yeah, it was very effective.
2:00:54Also, that brought us along.
2:00:57In other words, you can't always be down the drain.
2:01:00Well, in effect, there hasn't been anything, any significant activity in third and fourth course for two years now.
2:01:07No.
2:01:08Remember when Townsend, we thought we had to gain six to nine months.
2:01:11Townsend came in, said we'd gain two years.
2:01:14Everyone said he was just...
2:01:17Telling us what we want to be.
2:01:18Very important, of course.
2:01:19That's right.
2:01:20He was right.
2:01:27Well, anyway, let's, uh, now, incidentally, I, you know, we discussed, uh, the situation with regard to your own tenure there, and I know it's been a great burden, but at the present time, with this negotiation, with this offensive and everything coming on, I've just got to ask you to stay until we see it through.
2:01:48Yes.
2:01:49Sure, fair enough.
2:01:51Yeah.
2:01:52What makes it be the Marshal?
2:01:54I mean, can't you bring that comment?
2:01:56Dear Marshal, I'm proud of you, Mr. Gottlieb, and dear Marshal Sullivan, Mr.
2:02:01Ambassador.
2:02:02The Washington Post would like to recall that they make that proposal to me every month.
2:02:07Oh, for Christ's sakes.
2:02:09As a man who has followed foreign policies you've had for years, you've served as Republicans and this and that, but isn't it shocking that you've gotten into establishment in this country?
2:02:36I mean, how they reacted to Vietnam.
2:02:39It was incredible.
2:02:41Every time the enemy wins.
2:02:43Yeah.
2:02:44Oh, sure.
2:02:44Every time we lose.
2:02:47But they're going to love it.
2:02:48We will laugh a lot.
2:02:50Mr. President, I'll stay on the course.
2:02:54I, you know, my wife and I, we've been living in France for more than five years.
2:03:02And
2:03:04Well, I think she's saying
2:03:22Then he says that his second point is the Saigon government should be urged toward political accommodations with all elements of their society.
2:03:29Without such an accommodation, the war cannot be ended.
2:03:32It's clear the American people will not support an indefinite war either by peace or by proxy.
2:03:36Then he goes through this line he uses.
2:03:38It's not an easy thing for a great country to admit a mistake, but it is perhaps the definition of greatness in a country that it can.
2:03:43Well, who's going to take him on, then?
2:03:56We can't understand the issue.
2:03:56We've totally lost the ceasefire.
2:03:57Just, uh, we had to already make sense of the thing.
2:03:58He must be getting to that point.
2:04:07Yeah, we've got to get into the, you know, someone's got to take it on solidly.
2:04:08Who understands?
2:04:09He says the president has also offered the kind of ceasefire already rejected.
2:04:10The administration claims that the principle of a ceasefire has been accepted by the negotiators as well as others, but the administration's words cannot conceal a clean reality.
2:04:14The point is not to argue, the point of it is to argue, is to attack him for parroting the line of the gun.
2:04:35That's exactly what they got to do.
2:04:37Turn it around.
2:04:38Yes.
2:04:39That's the approach they take.
2:04:41Well, hell, he's not even hurt in the enemy.
2:04:42The enemy is.
2:04:43I mean, he is, but the enemy has not rejected the ceasefire.
2:04:47They have it in their proposal.
2:04:49Yeah.
2:04:49But, I mean, he really ought to be hit on that.
2:04:56We were talking about the same thing as Buchanan.
2:04:57Buchanan's theory is that Clark Booker talked him into this, you know, picking up his line and dropping it, but instead of this, he caught it on his own.
2:05:00You've got to understand the line is like...
2:05:32that i would not argue that god damn he's got to be attacked for uh we were talking earlier whether or not i should you know take him on
2:05:56Well, even if they ask about it, normally I would not comment it.
2:05:59The impression that Wong and other people have, who die in and support movement amongst the press on this thing, is that we're not being asked about the muskie stuff here because they don't even have them in the...
2:06:09In other words, there's no parallel.
2:06:10There's no comparison, Wong, between what he says
2:06:14And what the president says, the questions were taken.
2:06:18Now, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.
2:06:21The question is here.
2:06:23Oh, we should.
2:06:23They just don't have them, you know, they don't have their minds postured in relating them to you.
2:06:28Is it?
2:06:28At least that's what the impression is out there.
2:06:31True.
2:06:31The other conclusion is they'll put it on all three networks tonight.
2:06:37And that's what he was looking for.
2:06:40He's smiling.
2:06:41Because that's, you know,
2:06:48Of course, then that leads to whether or not we should say, if I am asked a second time, something like, what the, I guess it goes off to my, I can't find it right now, but I'll find out if we develop a hard line or something like that.
2:06:52I just have to check it out.
2:07:30Of course, the other thing is not that Director Hardin acted.
2:07:39What would appear as obvious from this is that he has not studied or even bothered
2:07:50The other side has already rejected what he suggests.
2:07:55Well, why don't you get it?
2:07:59It might occur to you to talk to Scali about it, too.
2:08:04I know all these things we've stated there.
2:08:15The only question on that is whether or not she's tried to address it this morning.
2:08:18Well, you didn't have to.
2:08:19It didn't have to be.
2:08:20Well, actually, the guy that answered it was Robert Schultz.
2:08:59It's mostly mush.
2:08:59It's all sorts of leaving our sons fight and die.
2:09:00I'm sure it caused it.
2:09:41I wished for Christ to admit I was common.
2:09:42I spun.
2:09:42He said, you got one fighter.
2:09:43I said, I don't know.
2:09:44Thanks, folks.
2:09:44I said, go water it.
2:09:45It's been a premise for a little while.
2:09:46I think it was more of a fault of these three workers who were fighting.
2:09:48I know you can just see a common aggression out of viewers like that.
2:10:07That's our problem.
2:10:37This would be a very good attest to Bill's letter.
2:10:38When the chips are down, he'll take something on.
2:10:39I'd really like to know.
2:10:40This isn't, the attempt isn't really a chips down effect, because he hasn't come up with any.
2:10:42There was some thought he might have some proposal or something.
2:10:43So is the old warm-up or hash, especially with that, it's the same line.
2:10:45You're studying.
2:10:45Why does he support the president?
2:10:46That's the point.
2:10:46The president speaks the post.
2:11:11Okay.
2:11:11I don't have your phone number.
2:11:12I don't.
2:11:12We're not going to read it.
2:11:13I see your phone number.
2:11:52It is.
2:11:52I was very interested in your children's reaction at school.
2:11:56I was .
2:11:56But when it changed the view of the person, that's the thing that I was interested in.
2:12:00There's a lot there.
2:12:21Honest people in this country basically are fair-minded.
2:12:23They don't like somebody getting a bad rap.
2:12:59I can't understand that.
2:12:59Did you talk about it?
2:13:00No.
2:13:00Mitchell's been here.
2:13:01Yes.
2:13:01I called him.
2:13:01What in the name of God is that about?
2:13:02Did anybody mention it to you?
2:13:03No, not until I saw the paper.
2:13:04It's just unbelievable.
2:13:05It's just attributed to a statement released by the Attorney General announcing that there
2:13:24Taking it all on the press, it's unbelievable.
2:13:25After all, all we've been trying to do with the other one, $100,000.
2:13:26And all of a sudden, you spoke to the goddamn author in Chicago.
2:13:28You spoke to him.
2:13:28$100,000 a month for the Smitty National Committee.
2:13:29Well, we didn't notice that for the National Committee.
2:13:30Well, can we get it?
2:13:30Can we do anything to, uh, who's the follow-up?
2:13:31I haven't talked to Mitchell.
2:13:32That's the first thing I'm going to find out what the hell he's doing.
2:13:50You can probably say, well, it's too far down the pike and it had to be brought because she was an eater and he circulated the things, you know.
2:13:53Well, I was to fund the investigation.
2:13:54And maybe it's still going on that.
2:13:55He's got a lawsuit going on that.
2:13:55But this is an antitrust action.
2:13:56Yeah.
2:13:56Would you guys, by the way, I asked Opie last night,
2:15:55No, he doesn't.
2:15:55He just shifted that whole, why?
2:15:56He just shifted that whole contact thing that worked in operation and I don't know what happened.
2:16:00And Wood Mitchell knows about it.
2:16:41Go on.
2:17:14You've got beauties.
2:17:14Yeah, beauties.
2:17:15There you go.
2:17:15Great.
2:17:15Sorry.
2:17:15Except our invention.
2:17:16Oh, man.
2:17:16I could go too far.
2:17:16Well, make it look as good as you can, Mr. Payne.
2:17:18I guess that's the only ball you know that you can tell is a television show.
2:17:19Make it the best show you can make.
2:18:50He knows the only one that really matters is me this year.
2:18:52Right?
2:18:52Yeah.
2:19:23You agree that that's the problem?
2:19:23Sure.
2:19:23No question.
2:19:24It's all the candy on this gun and stuff.
2:20:39Both of the men, the policemen were Marines.
2:21:00I'm not sure whether you took a read on that, Mr. President.
2:21:02Did you notice it, at least?
2:21:02Yeah.
2:21:02It wasn't noted in the press release, was it?
2:21:03Yeah.
2:21:03What I would say is the suggestion is that you'd rather not have to call them at 8 AM.
2:21:05You could have the price office prepare a brief.
2:21:06Yes, sir, I believe that Major Bradley took letters with him.
2:21:07That's all about it.
2:21:08I just wanted to be sure it was covered.
2:21:44Apparently.
2:21:45And, uh, just, well, I'm assuming that they're, they're on the wrong lookout.
2:21:47Their approach to it is wrong.
2:21:48This is, we come up with these massive programs and we don't know whether they'll work or not.
2:21:52We throw them in and they, they fail.
2:21:53And that screws the whole thing up.
2:21:55Well, we were coming up with a massive program.
2:21:56We gotta stop.
2:21:57Well, that's kind of his feeling.
2:22:15I'm glad.
2:22:16But it really gets to what you were putting.
2:22:20The owner was working to get at it anyway.
2:22:23Senator Vaughn was sure from the other side.
2:22:30Well, John was worried about the PR side, but that it would get hit by the press or drop in the program.
2:22:32I didn't do well.
2:22:33You know, we say, I'm not sure it hurt us, but we did.
2:22:34Well, the whole idea is to take a very pragmatic position.
2:22:35Elliot last night was saying, well, we shouldn't give up too soon.
2:22:36But I just think we ought to be pragmatic and say, look, I want to get a sign or something.
2:22:38They've got two and a half years, they won't have it.
2:23:04We really gave up on a program.
2:23:06No, we got a program.
2:23:07Didn't give up.
2:23:08The President launched an imaginative program and bought us and went with as much of it as he was capable of.
2:23:14No question.
2:23:16I agree with you.
2:23:17It's fairly too bad to drop it.
2:23:20And you said clearly on the public record that any change in welfare would be an improvement and that you were for anything to keep going.
2:23:33And you said that we don't know whether our program will work.
2:23:35So your position for saying this, we're perfectly willing to test it.
2:23:37I'm seeing that maybe it can be improved.
2:23:38The attitudes of the university caps as well, they're not sure there's a lot
2:24:03you realize how different it is.
2:24:05Oh, yeah.
2:24:05How different it is from what it was a year ago.
2:24:10Not just about two years ago, it was terrible.
2:24:14Three years ago, it was a problem.
2:24:16It sure was.
2:24:19But the difference is just, you know, night and day are fighting.
2:24:26It's just the thing you said, it becomes places of learning, other times around the city.
2:24:55Yeah, yeah.
2:25:36Really examine their reach.
2:25:55thirst of people to participate and their love for beauty.
2:25:57On the other hand, there is the terrible frustration, I would think, of being on commissions and knowing that they aren't, they don't mean a goddamn thing.
2:26:00Well, if they don't participate in this, they'll find something else to participate in that doesn't get us in trouble.
2:26:02And the fact that commissions either are a burden on us to keep them happy.
2:26:04And you've got another important intelligence for it, you know, that we're dropping in.
2:26:06I don't know, Andrew, what you need with that.
2:26:26I couldn't do that here then, but now, before trying to, yeah, tomorrow, or probably or something, I forgot about that.
2:26:28I was going to get out of town, so I missed that.
2:26:29There and somewhere else.
2:26:30And there's just nothing you can accomplish with it.
2:26:48You know, you start to think, you know, how the hell did we do it in the first year when we did everything Henry suggested?
2:26:50Well, not just everything Henry suggested.
2:26:51Everybody else suggested it.
2:26:52We just ran like that.
2:26:52Remember the schedules.
2:26:53In those days, it was something every 15 minutes.
2:26:54Right.
2:26:54Bounce from one to the next.
2:26:54And I think it was a good job.
2:26:55You know, you're right.
2:27:19Oh, I was looking back at some of that shit.
2:27:21It's unbelievable, some of it.
2:27:24Not just days, but weeks, because then you didn't have any, you know, you had the Wednesday off plan, or all of that.
2:27:26We'd get off the president.
2:27:27And also, you know, I got this impression over everything, medals and honors, and everybody, everybody was in, you know, we had this kind of award and that kind of award.
2:27:30And the congressional thing was unbelievably bad, remember?
2:27:32And how many people I had to call or see, or...
2:27:55And the point is that if everybody had then said, gee, isn't it great that you've got such a president who sees everybody and spends his time talking to people and all that, maybe it would have been worthwhile, but nobody did.
2:28:09All it is is that people did get in and argue that you weren't seeing anybody.
2:28:13The congressman for eviction?
2:28:15Yeah.
2:28:15The business owner for eviction?
2:28:18Yeah.
2:28:18Now there's something to the fact that if you let anybody in, then the guy who doesn't get in ditches, and you create an impression that you're not seeing anywhere, even animals, take care to his extreme.
2:28:28Not seeing anybody at all, and get less complaints about not seeing people than you do by seeing a lot of people at home.
2:28:37Because if you don't see my associate, then I don't mind if you don't see me.
2:28:39But when you see him, then I get mad that you didn't see me.
2:28:40I frankly think that I was in a way about how I started.
2:28:41So words get out.
2:28:42The more I look at it, the more I look back at it.
2:28:43The cabin officers would dream of trying to go to us because he had a chance to meet Greg.
2:28:45But nevertheless, we had lots of meetings, too.
2:28:46They would dream of it because we didn't want them.
2:28:47And I didn't want to hurt
2:29:08But we were counting that well, too.
2:29:10Our organization was working better and better.
2:29:12Because he had such a structured thing that he let himself go through all that routine.
2:29:18You know, he ran through the academy, and he'd come in, and he'd let us see every week, and then we'd go to conference every week, and then try to figure out other stuff that he didn't.
2:29:25He worked at it totally different way.

Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on Vietnam War and Edmund Muskie

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