Conversation 685-002

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Well, they, uh... And they're coming back this way to call on him.

And the Chinese want the publicity.

Yes.

Why do they want it?

Oh, I think they have made the commitment to indicate that they're getting closer to us.

Also, I sent them a note two weeks ago saying it was important to show a lot of activity to quiet the criticism.

They really played the game beautifully on Sunday.

Are you going to speak in criticism, or are you going to use that Billy Graham outfit?

Tuesday mornings at 28.

Frankly, as far as criticism is concerned, the most effective moves were made underneath the pool water.

Yes.

And that background, that helps, too, because that shut out the press.

Yes, the press, yes, sure, sure.

But I had to go out and bring our spokesman, you know, because Jim Buckley, that isn't enough.

But I think he did it.

You see, they always need a front man.

And if you cut off the two guys, Jim Buckley isn't heavy enough.

And he isn't really attacking us.

He's sort of nickeling away.

He isn't criticizing what we did.

He's criticizing the worries people have about it.

And that's not much of a winning proposition.

Yeah.

Let me ask you a couple of things.

The Indians came out a little sooner than we expected them to.

And there they are.

They're coming out this week.

I think we should recognize them around April 2nd.

I think I should tell the Chinese that... Why don't you do that?

And... Is that the week of April?

I think we should do it the week of April 2nd.

that week, so it doesn't make any difference in terms of that.

But in the case of Bangladesh, just so they're informed and they know that the Indian troops are out, that was the condition.

I think it's about November 25th, we ought to tell the state.

March 25th, we ought to tell the state.

Well, that's only 10 days.

Know what I mean.

They're not coming.

I don't think they're going to present.

I'm going to make my trip to Japan.

Oh yes, he's done a pretty good job.

That's what you have to do.

Of course, he really believes in what we've done, too.

Yes.

Yeah, he's such a weak bastard.

I mean, he did a good job, though.

You gave him religion that night, and why?

Well, I wouldn't say it, but it's... Well, I know his basic attitude, and when he went through Cambodia, he certainly gave swank the word.

Swank's reporting since then has been 100% better.

than it was before.

And also, one shouldn't underestimate, he saw you operating in China.

And these guys like professionals.

They may believe.

Oh, yes.

Yes.

They are professionals.

And that they can understand, handling these meetings and never making a false bet.

Considering that this press corps was just waiting for you to fall flat on your face.

You're going to be, I told you also you thought it would be time, so I wouldn't run it off.

Right, well, I somehow got the impression you thought it was more useful.

Yeah, well, it's more useful.

Oh, well.

But at this time, it's more right.

I mean, you don't recognize the times too soon.

Times do, sometimes.

I don't think so.

Because it's terribly important.

It's terribly important to have many people that are damaged.

We must deal with them.

But you must not rush too quickly.

None of us do them.

They're enemies.

You just sort of let them wait a little while.

They'll appreciate it a little more.

It's like they put their heads on their foot.

That's all time.

Except, like India, see, other times they're enemies.

And if they can figure that they can have us any time they want us, just because they're out all the time, you can come in.

I'm not going to let that happen.

You can just simply...

I can't break hold of them for another couple, three weeks.

Then about the first, between the first and the beginning of May, go up there, and I want you to convene at times.

All right, I'll go.

And tell them that you've checked with me, and I said so.

I'm not thirsty.

But I want you to be sure that y'all don't get you back after the night.

I can prove it tonight that all right, you might be up.

One sign of how times have changed.

The head of that group that came in here during Cambodia from Harvard to resign from the government and all this sort of 30 professors and to go back and come back, he came in yesterday for lunch and he said he wanted me to know they were wrong and you were right.

And I never thought I'd live to see the day when a bunch of Harvard professors would admit Cambodia was right.

He says Vietnam is a dead issue in the campus.

He said, if we get down to a volunteer for it, I got to know that I couldn't imagine.

My sole concern is first, brilliant rights.

But at this point, remember, we had a talk some several months ago, and I don't think you may have known it, but because you had no reason to, I said, look, there will come a time, because before the Democratic Convention, where it's got to be us rather than you,

And where we've got to say, where we've got to do something, but where we've got to indicate that everything is over, that we're everything on a game plan, haven't taken a leap for a little while, due to the fact that otherwise we may be forced out.

The point that I made here is that the Democratic campaign helped us in everything we have done in the nation of Kansas.

But it's 30, 35 percent.

That's what they always get, everybody.

And they're against the war and the military and so forth.

But there's no reason, actually, any reason to include Henry.

For us not, at that point, to say something.

At least we're sitting with you all the way.

We're helping.

We're doing.

You know what I mean?

And he's just got to be put in a continuum.

And at that point, we've got to find him.

Wait, I don't know why I don't let you say, oh, long term.

I don't know what you can say.

Oh, yeah, you say, well, I don't know.

Don't tell Larry God.

But at that certain point, at a certain point, we must make a dramatic announcement that, which in effect will say about something like, well, we've got to keep our people there.

We've got to imprison them or something like that.

Now, as a matter of fact, it'd be quite interesting to see.

three at this point having started with two as long as we have.

If they can, maybe.

then it's a bad environment and we just can't stick around on the ground and it's going to affect ourselves all over the world.

I think they can if that's my view.

But if we stick around, I'm not speaking about getting up now, but I'm speaking about saying we'll stay another five years with air power and all the rest.

It just doesn't go over.

It won't wash.

It won't wash as a use of American strength.

No, but I think that

The five years is ridiculous, but I think it is safe, though we have to balance.

But first of all, my judge, I think the April announcement ought to be a nothing announcement.

I agree.

Just say nothing.

We may not even make one.

Oh, just a few thousand.

Just two.

Well, I guess I'm just saying, well, basically, the withdrawals will convince you we'll have another announcement.

Right.

All of us do it.

When you give a number, because there would be draws that would be continuing

I won't say anything.

Because we are, I think that should be a nothing one.

By the middle of June, or the Moscow trip, or even later in June, depending on how you need it.

It depends whether we need it is the question.

It has to be.

You see, you know how the political conventions work?

Two weeks before the democratic convention begins, they start hearing on the platform.

If it's there, they will make the issue on Vietnam.

Now, the issue isn't worth a damn, but they can make it worth a damn.

You can say, well, all the Russians in there, well, now, we still have 50,000 in Vietnam, and we're still bombing, et cetera, et cetera, and then we run over each other to say, after four years, Nixon still got us in Vietnam, hasn't ended the war.

We mustn't give them that issue.

We've got to detune them to the point where it's a nothing issue politically, you can see.

And that's a very different thing from being a nothing issue with an honest, but critical thing, as you talked to me the other day, you can see.

Yeah, but I think my own view is, first of all, we can get all one of here.

We can set a figure, which can be almost arbitrary, 35,000, 30,000 of the residual force.

I think we ought to announce going to that in the middle of June rather than now.

Sure.

And say we'll have reached that by the middle of July or something like that, or 1st of August.

and have it all volunteered, it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference whether it's 40 or 30,000 at that point.

I saw something in the News Center where it obviously leaked out of Abrams' place where it said, our real problem now is hardly going to defend the remaining Americans.

Now, that's bullshit.

Look, here we can't defend them now.

You well know, okay, they, with less than 100,000 there, we don't have any combat forces to defend people there.

10,000.

So that is, all right, so that can be done.

also we can then see i share your judgment almost certainly the negotiations are going to bring any i'm going to bring anything but there's just a slight chance absolutely if they don't produce anything then the only thing we have to balance is not to let the thing unravel before november

because that's not the problem.

That, I think, would make us more vulnerable than a small residual force of volunteers.

I agree.

You understand, nothing needs to be done in the cause of unraveling.

On the other hand, we mustn't go overboard in terms of every time he sneezes and we get a cold.

But Hugh has been pretty good.

I know, but we must have him.

He must have him.

But if we can get it, I think that would also draw attention to Vietnam.

I'd rather take a trip out there.

The best way to do that is to just go out there.

Yes.

I think that it's better if I go there than if I don't.

It will make a difference.

The issue that I'm getting at is, Jude has got to stand firm on any kind of an announcement.

We make heavy in mind the fact that don't give the Democrats an issue.

That's right.

That don't give the anti-war people an issue.

That's all we're saying.

I couldn't agree more.

But if we can, I think you'll... We might have to negotiate.

We'll come out, if things break dry, we'll come out of Moscow

in a very strong position.

It isn't just about Moscow.

You know, underline all is not whatever right of Moscow or China.

That helps us a great deal.

But in terms of a political issue,

Henry, it's like a, well, in various incidents like the ITT, and nothing's a damn thing at all.

ITT stock went down 12 points in general recovery as a result of the trust settlement we imposed upon them.

But they made an issue.

And that's what this is.

See, and they can't name, you know, we made issues, not real issues.

So we must not look at the merits.

We must look at the politics of it.

Well, I mean, it's the strong position, not because people understand the issue,

I think peaking has put you into a strong position because it changed the image of you.

No one will remember a goddamn second whether you didn't be communicated.

It's a good communication.

But that's not the point.

Could I just suggest one thing?

Lower somebody from your high.

Or you could even have Alan's office.

goddamn to get the best positive things that have been said about the Communique Abroad and about the trip abroad.

You know, when I asked Rogers to do that cabinet meeting, it was a goddamn disaster, you know, for the leaders.

But you know what I mean?

I get what's said about it abroad is really fantastic.

And you told me about a broader program and a lot of other things.

And I said it's a masterpiece.

You see, what I'm getting at, Henry,

The world has changed.

The present time has changed.

But I need to try to communicate.

Everyone knows you opened China and you did it with great birth and skill.

I think you'll come out of Moscow, not that people will understand one of these reasons.

But really impressive.

Here is a man.

who for three and a half years has done everything right on foreign politics.

That makes it harder, in my judgment, to say how wise would you screw up Vietnam when you've done everything else right.

Particularly, you see, well, let me say about that, before you say something, I need to remember everything.

I don't want to...

What we have got from a public standpoint, and Pew's got to understand that, we've got to let it appear that we've got to keep a reserve force there because of POWs.

That's the only justification.

These volunteers are staying there because of their buddies in the Army.

People will support that.

Even McDonough had to come to that the other day.

Even Humphreys had to come to that.

But yet they say we are keeping a reserve force there for the purpose of survival.

of assuring the survival of the Jew government.

That is a very risky thing.

That is the real deal.

I don't include Mr. President, that is true, not to lie.

We could just offer this total withdrawal for the POWs.

We could do that, and I didn't put that in there because I don't want to, I do not want to do anything that will push the government down the tube.

If we could do that, knowing that that's a straight POW for that, I would do it.

But you've always said, and I agree.

Yeah, but that was a year ago.

You have always said, however, and I agree,

And once we offer that, they'll say, yes, we'll do that provided you stop the bombing.

And that we can't do.

On the other hand, if in June there, if that was solved, I don't care.

It could be 50,000.

You could lease 50,000 there if you could save in June.

We're now down to this force.

We will retain this force until, and as soon as we get the POW, we will remove the force.

Period.

All right, thank you.

Would you say that?

That would be enough.

I would need to think more.

Well, let me take that.

Volunteers in order to get the view that it's not.

Let me say that.

The other side of that, I mentioned in the last one, which is I thought this would be safe.

You remember, we don't have to live with that for three months.

In three months, we let that be the position.

And then in November,

win or lose, will bomb the hell out of the Bastions.

Now that's exactly the way I feel about it.

There's not going to be any more stirring around.

Well, you see, we've gotten since then another year.

I frankly would like an offensive to take place now, Mr. President, for this reason.

Because if we had the offensive now and we didn't lose, we would be, we would know they couldn't do one in October.

My nightmare is that they're not spending all this stuff, and even though October isn't a good year, a good month, that they'll take it on in October.

Although it's a hell of a gamble for them to take, because if they don't tip you over in October, then they've had it.

And it worked.

You might not say it, but they paid me the wages because they meant that if we were to lose the election, that we should lose the election because of their fancy.

But I'm just going to roll over and play it like they're crazy.

I'm still president until January.

And I'll do what I can help with it, I'll stand for whatever it is.

You know what the minister's writing about?

The price they'll pay if you, if you don't, if you wait this late, is, if they'll pay, is your convictions as a leader will be, in foreign policy, will be so tremendous that they may be putting themselves away in an isolated position.

It's a miracle that we have held on given our domestic opposition.

If you had said on... Two.

We have had fewer casualties all these years than in any week last year.

Than in any week in the first six months of last year.

and less than 1% of the casualties we had when we came in.

70% of all the casualties in your administration were incurred in the first year.

48% in the first six months.

In other words, I think we should draw on the offensive.

We should say these people, every war, every area in the world when we came in was in turmoil.

required them all down if you had said that you could pull 520 000 troops out of vietnam which is what you'll have done and not lead to collapse i i think it would have been considered unbelievable all right

And the only thing I'll add is the prisoners are good.

Don't tell anybody.

The only one you can tell is Kate.

Don't tell anybody anything.

Shut up.

The reason is I want no leaks.

I don't want any leak out of the leg.

But what I want to do is to wait until after Moscow for the announcement.

Now, here's my thought about the announcement in April.

And I'll just say it.

I don't want to get into the business of selection and so forth because it brings us down too low.

But I would say that we'll have another announcement in June, but in the meantime, withdrawals will continue on some sort of basis.

I think if you otherwise announce that you're reducing your rate of withdrawal, why don't you do that too?

But when you're down to 69,000, you've got to look at it.

I mean, we can't just say we're in a different ballgame now.

Yeah, well, the announcements now, I can say that there will be, you know, they've just done a brief basis or something like that.

And it will be announced from SACA, something like that.

See, that's the kind of announcement I'd like.

And it will make another announcement in June.

Okay.

How's that sound to you?

That sounds good.

But you see what I'm trying to do is to use the June announcement, Henry, for political purposes.

Now, the way to use it for political purposes is to bring you into the game with that and say, look, this is what we're saying, this is what we mean, and you've got to hang on for three months.

I think after you're back from my staff, it should be on the version A, Joe.

Joe?

Yeah.

I think it's 31st, I think.

I think I'm checking.

Right.

May 31st, probably.

Yeah.

What's June 1st?

I think then we ought to review the situation because then they got there.

Yes.

And...

That's what it is.

It's their convention, I'm concerned.

Well, the point is, I think, I've given some thought to the whole situation after the election.

So no decision has to be made.

I think for the first year Rockefeller would be no major problem.

I could help him.

I could handle him for a while.

My plan would be, if he comes in, is to tell him right away that I'm staying for a limited time so that he doesn't have to take me on.

And then phase out.

But I could handle him.

But that might have to happen in any event, because almost anybody who's bringing in a Secretary of State will have to prove his manhood by taking me on.

I mean, that's now...

Unfortunately, I've given this a lot of thought.

I don't know.

I was just waiting to see.

But that is...

I would be good.

The only thing that I think about is seeing.

I know you don't think much of the idea that it would not be in that category to be rushed.

Yeah, but I want to watch him a little more.

I was very impressed with him in Bond.

Oh, no, no, no.

But he doesn't strike me as very strong in this first draft yet.

But I want to reserve judgment on him.

Because he started slow and... We're not looking for a very strong man, except that, look, I'd like to have a low-life malignant undersecretary.

I don't mean malignant.

Somebody has got to clean it up now, but it's not... No, I think I could handle Rockefeller.

No, I think he'll take defense, but I think he'd probably Thursday...

He might.

I think Jack will want money.

That'll be very easy.

And I think he's an honorable man.

I agree, but he doesn't have any money.

And another thing about him, we're just talking to the church here.

We both have a considerable amount of energy.

We both work like hell.

We both campaign like hell.

And who believes, believes a very easy life.

You know, I mean, you go three or four days and you play golf three or four days.

What I mean is, I think Dr. Bailey, he knew this was one way of doing it.

Could probably be helpful in arranging a very rewarding financial exit for Agnew.

Thank you, sir.

Do you think that he wants money from you?

Yes.

He's mentioned to me once that he wanted... What did he say to you when I asked why?

I don't know that, but he said he wasn't very eager to run again, and so I said... Oh, he didn't mention money?

Yes, and he wanted to make money, and this was his last job in making a lot of money.

Well, I think he likes a good life, you know.

He likes going out and playing golf with Bob Wolfe and Frank Sinatra and all the rest of the things that I adore.

He loves, huh?

But if you ask yourself quick times about that, you know, would you give him any senior cabinet position?

The answer is probably no.

And maybe he can't.

You could give him...

but yes you can get in defense because the defense department runs the secretary that's the way it worked out but i don't think he has the capacity to be president later than that no matter the fact you'd be very concerned if we were here in this chair oh yes

No, I don't know whether you would take defense.

Of the foreign public defense, defense is the only one.

Right.

Oh, you mean to move him from here, from Vice President to defense, or something like that?

Yeah.

No, that's right.

I don't know who tried it, but that's what was said.

I don't know whether that's true.

Well, it was said that this is what some people were trying to do.

No, I think it's best for us to go out.

If he doesn't go, he should go outside.

The difficulty is not to have that.

He's talking about if he doesn't mind.

But I think he should voluntarily, he should indicate early, well whenever he wants to, I can't say before, but some months before that he doesn't want the nomination.

I don't, I think it's time for you to be in the position.

Why can't he then?

Because the way you did one hell of a job for us.

Yeah, I'm going up for them.

Very big bunch.

Strong.

I left on that just for that.

I had to go up and see the ambassador before.

Watson sees the other guy again, and I wanted to tell him about the Soviet move.

What did you want him to talk to you about?

I mean, that the Soviets had access about three things.

Yeah, the three dimensions.

i think i should mention something like that well how about how about third the board uh yeah and uh do you also take care of uh do you want to mention that too no i think i've eaten them honestly

Well, if the subject comes up here and say, well, there's nothing really we can discuss, but if there's any kind of a wheel they have to action, their narrator is the president, so I think they know.

I think they've always got to have that in the back of their mind, so that there's no damn surprise.

You don't think there's actually no surprise on that, do you?

I'll tell the North, we've been just screaming at them every day, they must have done something to annoy them.

You think so?

Yes.

What infuriated the North was on top of, first they object daily, the North, that the Chinese in their side of the, on their side of the communique didn't mention our bombing of the North, didn't ask for a fixed withdrawal date, didn't ask for the overthrow of Jules,

and just made a pro-forma statement, we support the North, because the North will convince people in the attainment of their goals, but they didn't say what their goals were.

So, literally, there hasn't been a day.

Then the second thing they object to is that they gave you so much television coverage, they say, the way they say it is, President Nixon, the archangel, under strange circumstances, made the following statement.

Then they'll quote something you'll get in China, like on the Great Wall, all couldn't divide people, which for some reason is infuriating to know that we can reach beyond description.

And they keep lambasting you for that statement.

Now you make a thousand statements like that.

But they want to get it to Chinese.

On the other hand, the North Koreans are showing light with what they are making.

So now they all say, stunning progress.

And of course...

And if this person's schedule holds now, uh, lead on code, it's still going to show up in Paris in about three days.

Make sure, sir.

Well, we don't really want them there to have done that.

Because it creates too much speculation.

Price and schedule would be fine.

By April 20th for the meeting.

What I would do is go over to one of these Facebook meetings and

See you all from the Gilbertburg meeting.

Are you going to the hospital for your vacation?

I'm thinking of it, yes.

The Mexican foreign ministry has offered me a house anywhere I wanted to go.

I don't see that that could create any political problems.

By all means, they do that every time.

And if you go to Google, it's very important because the hotels that are crowded, it's like Miami Beach.

Because I think the drivers in this theater are cool, and they're just absolutely beautiful.

And you're damn right you did it.

Also, could I suggest one thing?

Let's get the maximum vision set and announce it.

What do you think?

I think it's a good idea.

I was thinking that he may raise his hands up, but he knows very well where we are.

You have to have a place.

Now the other thing that we've got to think of is what we're going to do to the grave.

He doesn't want to say it's government.

Oh God, no.

I'm sure, I'm sure he'll say it will.

I'm not afraid.

Could you just pass?