Conversation 695-008

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I visited with Senator Eastman this morning.

He said it would be better to bring the planning hearings to an end.

And I hope that following the testimony which Eastman had already promised Kennedy to permit tomorrow from Jeanine, apparently Kennedy has a follow-up question,

They're going to have Denise tomorrow.

Yes.

Denise on the promise.

So he said, I can't break my word on that.

And I said, no, but at the conclusion of Denise's testimony, certainly two or three hours would be enough.

Would you recommend, Mr. Chairman, a member of the committee for the purposes of moving into executive session in a motion to terminate the hearings?

And he said, terminate them without the testimony of the secretary in Toronto and the...

attorney for IT&T who interviewed Peter Beard, and I said that, yes, sir, it seems to me that any testimony they could be given by sworn statement in the record could be held open for a day until those statements were received and filed.

But I said, it seems to me that very much in the interest of everyone that we terminate these hearings tomorrow.

And I said that I speak with the authority of the president in wanting these hearings brought to a close.

There has been no credible evidence of any linkage between

Sheridan Hotel's arrangement with the Commission Bureau in San Diego and the...

I said, none of these other witnesses will offer any evidence.

There's no offer of proof they can make that will hold up.

If we were talking about a court of law, no judge would accept any offer of proof because they can't make any offer of proof to show any linkage.

I said, if...

There is a desire to report some of the senators on your committee to pursue an inquiry into IT&T.

That should not be related to Kleine East, and they can pursue that in another forum.

You've let in, I trust, some committee, and Bill Hart is chairman of it.

But it's imperative that we bring these Kleine East hearings to a close.

And he said, I'm fearful that that will be damaging to the findings, maybe damaging to the president because people say you're trying to shut off the evidence.

And I said, but it's damaging.

Mr. Chairman, continue this.

He said, all right, Clark, I will do as you ask, and I will vote.

If Hugh Scott makes a motion or Roman Huston makes a motion or anybody else makes a motion, I will vote for it because I don't need to hear it.

But I think you're making a mistake.

And he's called John Mitchell as I expected he would in Jesus' game.

He's told John Mitchell it's too much of a power play and we ought to have a few more days for the hearings to run.

And I thought it was imperative, Mr. President, that I talk to you about this because I think it's in the interest of everyone that we terminate these hearings.

And I have pushed pretty hard.

I'm meeting with all of the members of the Senate Judiciary Committee on our side, the Republican senators.

in senator russell's office at 145. we're trying to get them all well he said at least until we've heard uh lichman and leisure the lawyer i said we can take that we can get foreign

Well, the point that I make of this, I'm trying to figure out Misha's motivation, I don't know.

He says he wants to play and he's confirmed.

He wouldn't think he'd want to be playing Kennedy's game, yet here he is saying,

Well, the hearings ought to go on, but the White House... No, he said, well, Clark, you should accommodate the term by letting them run another day, Thursday, for example, and have Lickman and Leasher down to testify.

And I said, well, I'm not absolutely sure that that's going to be in our interest to have them testify.

But my understanding is that Lichtman is not a strong witness.

She'll say that she knows how to spell commitment, and the word commitment just appears four times in the Anderson Memorandum and is not typed by her.

But I said, once you get a witness there with the open rules they have with all sorts of hearsay, you don't know what she's going to say, and we're better off than ever a sworn statement.

And I said, John, I don't know leisure, and I haven't heard what he's going to say, but I understand he's going to say that he had very told him something that's at odds with what she told, uh, testified under oath at Denver.

So he isn't going to help me.

She's crazy.

What is it?

I don't know.

Mr. President, I've met Peter Beard a couple of occasions.

But when I've met her, she used language that would offend a marine drill sergeant.

She usually had too much to drink.

Why a fine company like IT&T would do that?

I think that Janine personally was...

admired very much the fact that she was gutsy and supported five kids without a husband or at least without a husband that contributed at all and i think it was that respect for for a gal who made her own way and provided education for five children that was somewhat sentimentally affecting jenny's judgment with teaching with regard to the cutting off of the hearings

I suppose that you mean to say this is a power play by the White House.

I suppose that's our problem.

What he said to John Mitchell was power play.

He said, yes, that's what I'm concerned about because I'm the one who's applying the power.

And he said it'll look bad if, you know,

in order to get to us and cover up.

He said, that's the only option.

I said that, you know, when you have loose hearsay, secondhand hearsay evidence about $600,000 that makes a headline in the Washington Star, I said, that's very damaging, too.

It's a question of trying to find the least damaging alternative that's available to us.

And I talked to Eastland, not

Not as if he were 100% ally, as if he were mostly an ally.

Because as you said, Mr. President, what's he slung up to?

What's his motives?

He had said to me, you know, Clark, I can't refuse the request of four senators on my committee.

He has more up here to be kept.

What are the senators on?

Senator Russell, Senator Scott, Senator Cook, are the three I have personally talked to individually, and they say they feel we ought to move to close the hearings tomorrow.

And they're happy making such a motion.

Scott this morning indicated next week .

In other words, he didn't think anybody .

No, I want to sort of, you don't know precisely what I've done.

And I did so on the basis of what I think it ought to be.

It ought to be the action of the committee rather than the action of the White House.

That's the important thing.

If we could give a piece of talk that way, if the White House is trying to close the jury, that would be very damaging.

You've got that.

I suppose that's our problem.

It's the committee action.

It's the action that the committee takes.

We certainly can't control the actions of the committee.

Senate Judiciary Committee, we can request.

Yeah, well...

Senator... Mitchell felt he shouldn't do it.

Mitchell felt we ought to let one more day run.

He said if Eastland will agree to close the hearings after Thursday, instead of just pulling through this through, maybe we should do that and have Lakeland and Leisure come down and testify.

and i said we've got a little bit of a difference because i don't know that that makes much difference i mean if you could have a compromise in other words together it's just kind of close i don't know if you could get up close thursday that's as good as once you've got a mighty visit i guess you couldn't do that because i think you'd have to go over to i understand the following that's just fine but you didn't have a whole week for the pastors to talk about suppose they what is the move that really closed the hearing and what happened

uh i asked senator eastman i said i'm sure you're going to be faced or if we win this a motion tomorrow with a request part of kennedy had 30 days to file a supplementary report he said i have to prevent that he said there's no need for a supplementary report i'll communicate to senator massfield that the action taken by the senate judiciary committee and our desire to start the debate no

What does he agree?

He said to me yesterday that when I get the advice and counsel of the Senate Judiciary Committee, I will schedule a confirmation debate in due course.

He didn't say he'd schedule a meeting.

It's going to be quite a debate.

Fortunately, there's a debate at least this afternoon.

But, you know, it's still beyond television.

Because the committee's hearing is about television.

This is the fact that they go out after each damn session, appear before the cameras, and then they go out and send a debate.

Each Democratic senator will speak for a while afterwards and get the cameras and the cameras will run.

I may turn for a moment to another subject.

Yeah, sure.

I, of course, was the president of the informal session that Henry Kissinger had with the members of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs this morning.

But there appeared to be a difference of opinion between Henry Kissinger and Dick Cook as to whether there should be an official record made with a court reporter.

I think not, though.

Dick Cook said no, and Henry said it was his understanding that that's what you wanted, and I said, I think not.

You don't want it.

We don't want it transcribed.

The moment you have it transcribed, then it's a hearing, by the way.

Henry wanted it transcribed.

He thought it was fine.

I'm not sure that he does, Mr. President.

Dick Cook said to me that Henry wanted one.

Was one made?

No.

And there shouldn't be one this afternoon.

He's meeting with the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, and this should be billed as just another in a series.

Henry's done this two or three times before in a formal way in a social setting, visiting with the members of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations without any pressure.

They make their notes, and then they walk.

Wait just a minute.

Let's see.

If you've got a run, you've got a line.

Okay.

We just think good about each other.

I've intruded on your time and your schedule.

here.

Let me ask you to do one other thing.

Top's questioning this morning disturbed me because I was assured by early on that, you know, he had a whole program for informing members of the House and Senate, and I told him, particularly, I gave direct specific orders that that group of, you know, hardliners from the House opinion, as well as senators from the Southern group, should be, you know,

because you've got a perfect case, if you lay that out there, and I see a perfect case of H&M, it's already been continued in the Constitution, and then there was, you know, saying that one of the steps you can do, one of the moratoria will help some of them, everybody,

It just doesn't agree.

It's unfair to the South by itself.

But third, then let's also try to get the other thing.

And it does reopen.

The jury is also in fact one of those things.

We pounded on to these guys.

So we get everybody lined up, at least our friends.

What happened here?

Did they just, we just dropped the ball.

They didn't talk to the Senator.

The Senator, we haven't heard.

They're all we follow now, I guess.

Well, a week late.

No, I don't think it is too late.

I made a note certainly.

I mentioned setting up a meeting and asked Dick Cook to find out what their plans were.

Hopefully the house is going to be in session late tonight and they may go over it tomorrow because there's a bitter debate on this water bill.

And it isn't too late to set up a meeting tomorrow morning with those people to handle it.

Well, what do you say if we drop the ball?

I just thought about that.

I told her, is there a job?

And he said, we've got an old client in this.

And I said, all right.

understand how you i i guess just assumed the subjects would understand what they did what i did was present uh look immediately after the friday press conference um involving john robert and uh and the clinton and pieces and the others i got copies of the verbatim transcript for uh

all the Republicans and all the Democrats I thought would be helpful to us and got this in their hands to answer some of these questions.

That probably won't do it.

You see, you've been in the House.

And you know what the situation is.

The Irish House member in Senate, he's got to have it spelled out on about one page, and a few saving points where he's got to hear it there, and he's got to keep his cockeyed head, otherwise he isn't that big, huge scratcher that he'll have anymore to study.

I wonder if maybe they just don't have the security, right?

Well, they do have, and do the good.

Herb's not here.

I think it's George and I went up, sir.

I think it's George and I went up with a group of the Southern Church.

George does understand that, but he isn't particularly well known.

What I meant is he's got it tilted, tilted to the bussing people.

I mean, Ricketts' thing was fine this morning, except he was tilted to the education people.

God knows, I mean, that's fine, but...

Black lives are not a problem anymore.

Education people are never going to be satisfied.

What we need is to deal with the bussing people in the present time.

At least to get our friends aligned with us.

I think George and I can do that, Mr. President.

You think it would be worthwhile?

Yes, yes.

Because the House members said they're here late tonight.

they will not be able to get plans away from here they do have a hot schedule tomorrow now there'll be a lot of ads and teas but we could reach them tomorrow morning we could work this afternoon to set up a session uh dick dick cook and bill can get them set and i can get george schultz and he and i can do a preparatory work so that i can tell him as i'm sure you already know is how to plan it to to answer their their concerns we

I think I did drop the ball to some extent in failing to emphasize section 406, the reopening section, and the five and ten year provisions in the Equal Educational Opportunities Act.

We didn't highlight those to the extent that we should.

What is, uh, if you discuss this thing with Olsen and say that it was his idea, he must have thought the other way around.

Yes.

And he thought it was his idea.

Maybe we're all too close together.

Keith Olsen.

Yes.

If you can't do that together

Maybe a couple pages of entry 5 or 6.

See what I mean?

It does re-open.

I mean, it does not.

You know what I mean?

Neither does that.

But the bus is more important to Congress.

Don't go into that.

Okay.

And don't go into the education side of it.

I know most of you are going to be assured that there's a compensatory education part.

You know they're wrong, but, you know, we're for it because it's right.

But we think it's right.

But nevertheless, I think they're right, too, on another thing.

They're going to have one hell of a time.

Do you think they're going to be able to get a busing moratorium and a conference report?

We've got to get a vote on that busing moratorium.

That there must be a vote on it.

We are going to have trouble getting the moratorium in exactly the form in which you submitted it.

They all want to weaken it to some extent.

This is the rabbit's... Oh, wait a minute.

I mean, I don't approve of the weakening, but the point is, we've got to get a vote on it.

Yes, the answer to your question, Mr. President, is yes, I think we can get it, and I think that we can hurdle these parliamentary problems that we have in both House and Senate so as to get a vote on them, even though it may be in the...

a slightly weakened form, but I think that the essence of the moratorium can be incorporated into the Congress report.

The problem is it all crumbles if you modify it.

That's much of our problem.

Javits wants to say, yes, a moratorium, but, in other words, Mr. President, when we were considering working with a strong or a weak moratorium, they don't know anything about our deliberations on a weak moratorium, but Javits himself may come to the conclusion that you'll have a moratorium with exceptions instead of the hard moratorium

uh i use the wrong words it was hard for soccer and it was an art moratorium the two decided on running i think most of us were in favor of but you may get out of out of the conference in sophomore when exceptions is not which was the issue so you wouldn't get a clean test everything balances on all the things

Yeah, well, I didn't get the present, but I didn't feel like I could, and I was...

I'm sure they're not anticipating the need to highlight Section 406 and 510-year expiration provisions of the Equal Educational Opportunities Act to get a group of senators together in advance and to hit them with that.

Well, that's what Morgan is supposed to be doing.

I don't know, Morgan, we're not talking about government.

Two different groups of senators.

He's coming down the wrong way.

I'm talking about Congress and the senators aren't supposed to.

Here's Pop sitting in here, for Christ's sakes, who's the lawyer, who should understand.

Why?

Our southern president doesn't understand.

Here we go.

Well, it's a shocking thing to hear two weeks after it really is.

You get that, plus the alienation thing.

of the sixth grade.

That includes K through six.

Plus the provisions that put a terminal date on it.

That's a terminal date.

Well, at any rate, there's a lot of good stuff in there.

The point is that you've got to get somebody to explore it.

You've got to get a little, I think,

Who's fighting for the heart of the world?

That's what he's fighting for.

And Christ is a great man.

He has some sense of it.

When he's old, he'll get back.

He's going to get it right.

That's really important.

The day after, on Monday, they've got to start working on it.

We can start with Senators, Mr. President, on Tuesday.

As I say, if George Shultz and I may be able to do some of this tomorrow morning, and if Dick Falk can help us, I think he can.

In other words, he can sit in the group and be our show.

Shultz isn't the best guy to sell us out of there, Clark.

No.

He really isn't, Clark, because basically, you see, he's just like Elliot.

Elliot's sitting there talking about Australia and Canada.

I said, that's great, but it's not being in that leader's group.

We only have one or two scouts for our base.

So the rest of those guys, damn, they have to go through the points.

Are you a better job with him?

He's around.

Oh, Dennis.

Yeah.

Is Dennis all right?

He's got a nice water.

He's from 300.

that morgan was out on the road but he couldn't get back you understand i sure do about this about the hard line

You've created meetings instead of meetings.

That's not what you're after, are you?

You're after making a pitch.

You're after making a pitch, and you're after talking about it.

We're just in the room all week.

That's right.

Anyway, do your best to have a meeting set up.

And he's here?

Maybe you're in.

Think of some hardline guy like Stan.

He's probably got a hardline guy.

in there it's got four that are set up to break down where he gets one of them the hard line south connect you see all the breakers are all oriented the other way where you understand i do sir just put it straight out there say bang bang bang bang bang now what the hell's the matter with you guys get forward here

If I may say so, I think I'm the first one to do it.

I think you are.

And then Harry does as well, because I know these people, and I know Joe Wagner well.

Well, Harry, you know, he knows a lot of the specifics.

You know, we've really got a pretty good case.

We've got a heart moratorium.

We've got intervention.

The heart moratorium affects south as well as north.

There are some cells.

That's the intervention that affects south as well as north.

Third, we've got...

The re-opening of the case, of course, is written right in there.

Now, I still think that you both, you can just say, now, here it is.

What the hell do you guys have to offer to do anything about this?

And all of this is necessary in order to be constitutional.

It's not true, Bob, that the hard moratorium must be hard to make constitutional.

to make it stand in the moratorium they can put that down in right now too but from our standpoint it doesn't mean anything unless it's hard it's got to be hard to keep going around the track the moment you start taking exceptions it'll go fly right out the window but we've got to get it up to a book some way we've got to get it up fast we've got to get people playing

If you would try, I would appreciate that, because there are, it's quite obvious, there is a hole here, and not even the House of Senators, those are spokesmen, I tell them, and I just tell, even if you get it, you get it, Senator, maybe a few of them.

I think we can, particularly in the House, Mr. President.

Well, they're over there.

They're all there.

Get those House members together, and then I don't know what you can do.

There may be some of those that are standing, too.

It's great.

Yes, but there's a lot of synergies in that plan.

He's got a couple more on his head.

Maybe Griffin could bring the two together.

It's quite obvious.

I think our people should be the same.

You don't have Scott to lead the charge.

So Griffin's going to have to lead the charge.

See, Scott's very conservative.

Griffin understands.

It's his issue.

He's been talking to Ford in the House.

Well, Ford ever says it.

But I should get some of our friends, like, playing video games.

And on the side of here, you've got to get people like Tower, for example, David Brock.

They're all...

They're bored of the... Well, they ain't going to be selling their southern trailer.

Bill Brock has been in a lot of trailers, and they're really excited about it.

Said this is the greatest package that he's seen, and that it's a masterstroke.

You know, it's an interesting thing we have here.

Which class you got on?

Always Washington.

Your White House staff people generally, domestic staff and so forth, go liberal.

Therefore, what you have to do is to always make an agenda

Remember, those leaders are a bunch of, for the most part, reactionaries.

You've got a few in there that aren't, but to get them charted up, you don't get Millie Richardson's pitch.

You and I believe there's like a, the difficulty is that, hell, those guys don't want to help those little black kids who get $300.

They, you know.

You want to stop us?

Huh?

They want to stop us?

They want to stop us.

And so they hear 15 to 20 minutes.

Well, this really was a trick for him.

Jesus Christ.

You watch that in the future, don't you?

Yes, sir.

I told Elliot Aitman and so on.

Well, I don't mean to Aitman.

I know.

I know what happened.

He wanted to appear, so that's fine.

There's only one way I'm going to say it.

Don't ever get well very far on that.

Just don't get on the agenda while we're here.

Just leave that out.

Because they're all against it.

Even though they voted for it, they're all against it at this point.

So let's not be pushing it.

We push it.

We push the Democrats for not reforming the federal welfare system.

You're not headed for it.

He was deeply involved in the operation of the period.

He's got a reputation.

And also, he's a person with a heart of mine.

You notice it.

He's hard to go as well as anybody.

You know, questions.

But it isn't just, as we all know, it isn't just what the person says about Jesus.

It's how you say it.

George chose to go in there and explain it.

And they say, well, Jesus called them.

They were afraid.

They were a little too little.

They got into a deeper reaction.

They said, well, these are real.

It's one of the two.

George didn't want to take these either.

See, they did some idealism.

Not his fault.

It's his great friend's fault.

You play each player, and we're able to make the points, right?

And sometimes we go to game.

That's all right.

Nothing lost.

It was all carried out.

We made the points.

I think we played strongly with these guys over there.

You know, and they could, they could, they could say, Jerry, you're talking to us, and say, gee, you guys, you're talking about your proposal, and you read the exam, and say, you know, what do you guys think?

You know, I don't know.

What about the Constitution?

What about this?

What else do you suggest?

Didn't have any of that.

You know, they realize that they ought to be out there charging and hooting and hollering, rather than just raising questions about it.

That's the problem, isn't it?

Yep.

Mortgages are the only other country making the best plan of all.

Fine, they want to work towards a constitutional amendment, and it may come to pass eventually anyway.

It may, it may, if this thing poisons it.

questions about the dialogue anymore, and the best thing about this is you have to go.

No, I have to go.

I have the Republican senators at 1-45, sir.

You have to leave here in 15 minutes.

Well, you ought to talk about IT&T for a minute.

His cards, that's what we were talking about.

Well, and this too, did you talk about Maxfield's position, or have you heard this?

Manfield has now said that he hopes the hearings will not be closed too fast.

He didn't want to see any undue delay in consideration of nominations, but as long as the hearings are reopened and requested planning time might add, this legitimate inquiry should continue until all matters are resolved.

And here's the clincher.

He said if the committee in fact closes off its inquiry, he would honor any holds placed on the nomination for a reasonable time.

that means that that means you've got no matter which way you go you've got extended what means mr president that kennedy and others have gotten to mansfield since i talked to him yesterday and said look what's the state here is the presidency of the united states and don't you uh so that what he is saying

Yes, but that would then get you, it seems to me, in a way that you have to follow the client's needs, and you ought to do it this week.

We ought not to wait until later on.

But you don't.

No matter what happens tomorrow, the Senate Judiciary will make a difference.

You now have what I was telling you before we did the incident, the provocation.

It's clear, even if the Judiciary Committee reports another incident, it will honor a hold.

Therefore,

Anybody knows that you're going to face either weeks in the committee or weeks on the floor.

They've said that.

That's his announcement.

Behold, it gives Congress the basis for going out and saying, yeah, putting a time in certain on this.

Consider it all.

You, uh, you had talked to, uh, Eastman.

Yes, I visited with Senator Eason this morning and said that we wanted the hearings closed.

We wanted an executive session tomorrow for the purpose of making the motion to close them.

And he protested, but I said that they could go on forever if we didn't bring this to a close.

And he, when I left his office, said, I will entertain such a motion in an executive session tomorrow.

I'll recognize any member for moving into executive session for the purpose of making a motion.

I will vote to support the motion.

I will vote yes on the motion to terminate.

I talked to Senator McClellan.

He's giving Senator Eastland his proxy to support the termination of the air.

McClellan said he cannot be here tomorrow.

He has some unbreakable commitments in Arkansas.

Senator Irvin is against this.

Yes, he wants Flanagan to testify.

He won't quit until he gets one.

It doesn't matter what else has come.

No.

How can you do that?

No.

We have six of our seven Republicans who will be at this meeting in Senator Russell's office.

We'll be here tomorrow.

The only absentee is Fong.

Fong is in Hawaii.

We can bring him back if we need to.

We think we're going to win the vote tomorrow, or can win the vote tomorrow, without Fong.

You think we have eight votes?

Yes.

You can give us a box of my telephone number.

You've got it on us.

So the likelihood is that by a narrow vote, you can terminate the committee hearings and report out.

Well, he would vote yes on the motion to terminate unless Masfield .

Of course, he had an understanding with Masfield, which this violates, if you recall.

Yes.

So the decent may flip us, but I wouldn't

I wouldn't think so.

I would also... People in Mississippi would look kind of... Well, he's on destiny.

Look, because Mansfield got effectively blocked anyway.

He's trying to keep his committee happy.

Marty would just...

He's going to summon him up, Marty, and said, should I provide a request?

I said, no.

You should go and support their request.

I said, I don't need any determination.

He said he would.

It really comes down to a point where either we get a vote tomorrow, in which case MCO has been effective in supporting us.

Or we don't get a vote tomorrow, at which point it is clear that the committee is going to drag this out.

Or we get a negative vote tomorrow, which is also clear that the committee drags it out.

Any one of those three possibilities is the only thing.

Well, a hold precludes a need for a filibuster, doesn't it?

Well, a hold is an announcement.

So what he's saying is that he will...

They're coming after the filibuster.

Now, plus the fact that they...

He won't bring it up, maybe.

Yeah.

That's what he's saying, that he'll hold it for a reasonable period of time.

He'll hold it at least long enough for Kennedy and Toney to file reports out of the committee, which can be anywhere from 7 to 14 days.

It works out the same way.

Mr. President, I should tell you that our preliminary head count, Jim Eastland has asked us to give the preliminary head count as to how we think the vote would go on confirmation if it could ever be brought to a vote.

And our preliminary count at the present time is 52 for climate.

38 against.

The remainder is officially unknown, so to speak.

Thank you, sorry.

If we do not, so will tomorrow, Mr. President.

And the hearing's going on another two weeks or so.

There is a list of witnesses that have been forming the question.

And Mary and Seth are working.

It was on the list, and Kennedy wants to call Max, but he's very damaging to us, I'm told.

I'm clear Kennedy's going to ask about the telephone calls, except for me.

You're going to get police in the area that was on the list, and that's another reason to try to precipitate this for him.

I didn't think he was trying to close the hearing.

Then of course I suppose to say that by trying to close the hearing, that was the next thing.

We have to anticipate that Phil Hart will do that.

He's the chairman of the Subcommittee on Anti-Trust.

Okay.

Thank you.

I think it's a hell of a different story if it's a hard subcommittee looking at the antitrust fallacy of this settlement than if it is the trying to prove the relationship between the contribution and the settlement and tying it to the quantity examination.

It's a different ballgame.

except they get green and all the other things yeah well it continues to oh sure it continues to be a problem i suppose with that you see what i mean clark if you close this

Use of the investigative power when you're in the majority, as you know, Mr. President, is a powerful tool.

Yes, sir.

And we have to anticipate that they will try to use the tools available to them.

Now, I don't believe that Hartman could initiate or carry on an antitrust subcommittee hearing without the approval of the majority of the members of the full committee.

whether we could muster a majority to prevent that development should Hart pursue it.

I just don't know.

Hart has been at least in the test for good reason.

We have seven Republicans, and we have Jim Eastland, and there is 50%... Government operations, government operations...

technically could do that but john was following me

What you do, if we cut this off tomorrow, is you give the Democrats, the four Democrats who are hostile, an issue, cut off the hearings.

And an answer.

But on the other side of the coin, you take all the findings, go to the next step, which we recommend.

You take all the drama out of the present hearings, which come to one

They've got to start it up again with some other credence.

I just think with findings, with the issue of findings out of the way, you know, they have blood.

Your feeling requires that the vet doesn't prevent it way longer than the best thing to do is to train and train and train the next day longer.

Yes, I have a question.

We have to know.

You've got to use that word for sure.

Yes, I do have that word.

Go ahead.

Well, it may not hold up.

It's always held up in the past.

I served on House Judiciary, and he was on Senate Judiciary.

We were in conference committees together, and his word has always been ours.

But remember, let's keep it away from me.

I'm not asking for it in any way.

We must not have the situation, Chuck, where White House is trying to come off the hearings.

I told you, the client actually is up there talking to Mr. Donovan.

I'm supposed to have been back with him yesterday, but we just got denied an alarm.

Well, Senator Scott and Senator Frost had called yesterday at an open press conference for a termination of the hearings.

All right.

They were able to get Scott Goreski and the rest of us to stop as well.

I think the point is that you may think that you've got all these other witnesses that are going to drag it.

And IT&P is such a powerful organization that it's only going to be bad news, right, sir?

I think the damage from the continuation of the hearings is far worse, Mr. President, than the one- or two-day story that you're going to get one or more arson screens and the hearings have been choked off.

Well, sure, if they're only capable of forgetting the hearings and they had carried it too far by going up to this hospital, we want that argument to be passed.

We're at the best psychological time to move back to the deep spirit story.

I think so.

Next week, you know, what about the fact that you're cutting off the hearings and you've got...

Well, that's what he would say.

That's what he is saying.

He's already said it.

Washington Post said it earlier this morning.

Now we must look at it and see about the $600,000.

secondhand hearsay.

She was told that somebody else had gotten a phone call from the White House, which said that she was going to escape.

That's when it keeps unraveling.

You never can grab hold of all the revelations.

And I think we can't deny that story, and won't as of this time.

Why?

Somebody said $600,000.

Well, they're afraid of what Merriam, they haven't been able to get Merriam, and they're afraid of what his phone conversations with Gleason were.

And Gleason, it was unknown to Merriam at the time whether he was acting as a White House agent or whether he wasn't, because he had been our agent all through 1970 with the campaign.

Oh, I see.

So Merriam is here to death to deny this for fear that, you know, you're going to have to lose $600,000.

Mr. President, when you're dealing with

The lobbyists, the Gleason enterprise, they could have been talking about ten million dollars.

That's the way they talk.

All right.

Do your best.

And I think what the hell.

It's just war.

It's one base.

And to an awful lot of the country, it's just politics.

Yeah.

That's right, Mr. President.

I'm not going to get into it.

It's, you know, you read the news.

I read it this morning.

I'm pretty darn interested in it.

Good God, Time, Newsweek, and the National Observer, Life, and so forth.

Everybody talking about the eroding scandal around the administration.

Horrible day in the world.

And who do you think about what the Christ are they talking about?

First of all, no.

Not a goddamn thing.

Well, not even a link between the two.

I'm not assuming there is a link.

They're making a business investment, you know, for the purpose of a new or a challenge, which could be justified on its own.

Otherwise, they can't write a book.

But in the name of God, do you think they're doing that?

Sure.

And that's the thing, also in terms of the substance of the case, is we...

The whole basic presumption of the case falls because they didn't get anything.

That's the main thing.

What the hell did they get?

They got a kick in the teeth right now.

i thought they were quick well you go ahead i think the thing to do is to strong arm through christ fellow republicans and you know and don't uh try to keep mitchell or anybody else off i hope he doesn't call otherwise i i talked to john on the phone john all right he just said you know maybe it would be good to just one more day i think you should point out the fact that manchester is

Well, that's been laid out on the mail, though.

Yeah, now that Secretary of Commerce will play this the other way, Clark, you're going to have to argue around the ceiling.

Now, as you said, if the committee in fact closes off its inquiry, he would, it's a threat, and he holds the place of nomination for reason of that.

Your Republicans will say we're quite close at all.

They can't understand our strategy.

We just try to make it dramatic.

Our strategy, too, is something that we just don't want.

As I understand it, you don't want to have witnesses serve.

Isn't that your problem, Sean?

That's part of it, Mr. President.

Well, that's something that sells me.

If there's a hell of a lot of bad wood, this is what they have now.

Well, even if they were good with this, Mr. President, the way the press is pointing, we could get that straight.

The point is that the longer these go, that makes sense.

I think it's imperative, Mr. President, we cut them off.

All right, good.

I made a price to pay after, but cut them off.

Yeah, right, let's cut them off.

And then I would have them fall away from my business.

Does something else?

The other side of this, which you can't say that any of the senators on the Hill have said, I'm convinced, and I think all of them recently.

But the only thing that has kind of told the sun around is Carnegie's making a very dramatic statement and being a marketer or offering to be a marketer.

What he would say is he would restate the case.

He would say, I asked for your signature.

And whatever they shout, I ask them to remove the club.

That club has been removed because this is what came out of a fire.

I said, review the case so that we get out of it.

And then he does a very dramatic thing.

He does a dramatic thing that no nominee has ever done before, which is he says, I am not going to subtract.

the country, the Justice Department, the administration, to this kind of continued politics.

You're just using my nomination as an excuse to profit, and I'm not going to let it happen.

It's just unfair to everybody.

Therefore, you have 10 days.

If you want to vote me out, fine.

And it just might change the plan.

People might suddenly say, my God, this guy has the guts to speak up.

What he says makes sense.

How much time should it get to maybe longer than 10 days?

Well, logically, Mr. President, yes, but it depends on your reasoning and wanting to get it over by the 13th.

Right.

It could go longer.

But should I at least do this this week, or should you do it next week?

Do it immediately, after that bill tomorrow.

If the maps deal with that whole time.

Otherwise, you have to do it when there's a

when there's a provocation for it.

You can't do it just out of the blue.

He's got ahead the provocation of the four Democrats saying, well, if this is the way the committee acts, we'll take our place on the floor.

And Mansfield's saying, how long are our holds?

Then they take his places and do it.

I'd like to talk to you about that.

I said, as you expected, he said it's a,

So I don't think it's a good ending, but there is no way to write a good ending, and that's the best ending available to us, which is, the first place you have, it's the only, yeah, but it's the only way that you have a chance of a favorable balance, and it's a, again, a long chance, but who knows, public opinion, it might work, you know, something might stir up, and it might backfire.

If it doesn't, then you've lost findings, which you're going to lose anyway, but at least you get to go out with his transposing instead of tiptoeing out the back door like a horse.

He goes out fighting instead of going down and fighting on his initiative rather than theirs.

And it's the only way you get the goddamn thing resolved, apparently, because it's the only way we get to look at it.

He said that obviously it isn't going to work, the Senate doesn't.

They're going to come back and say, if there's no good treatment in Arizona, it's going to tell us how to run the United States Senate.

They've been doing it for 200 years.

They've never been made curtailed by an old lady in front of nominee.

They've never quite been confronted with this kind of situation.

Nominees usually bow and scrape and get whipped like the list for us did.

This time, maybe you get out with some cuts.

He stands up and says, what if this happened to the Justice of Britain?

Might as well.

You can't win at any place.

All you can do is buy some kind of thing from Britain, give it 10 days, and maybe you just ought to go there for a while.

Maybe.

It might be a different problem.

the penance of defeat you see if he buys to you if he gives them an automated i'm going to put that out there it's possible if he gives him 10 days of dimension up and down vote then he's saying publicly i'm willing to stand on the on the yellow you see if he was yours that we can put out that the vote is favorable to him we know that the vote count is favorable but they won't let it come to a vote they won't bring it to a vote they're they're holding him hostage

And under those conditions, he's not going out under any admission.

If tomorrow or Thursday, Mr. President, he would say, he's asking you to withdraw his name, everybody would say, the press would run into it fairly well.

The administration got caught, and they dropped their guy.

But this won't be like that.

This is him saying, for the good of the country, I want a vote.

Now they don't give him a vote.

He wasn't doing anything.

He was willing to take his chances on being voted out.

Doesn't he have to get it done now?

It's 30 days.

Well, honestly, yeah, but...

But then you've got this story running for 30 days.

That's the problem.

It goes for a long time.

It shouldn't take 30 days, should it?

The hell if they had the goddamn thing up there?

It shouldn't, no, but if you're being realistic...

I mean, we want to be realistic about it.

Three weeks would be the bare minimum so that you could break a filibuster after all of the progress.

And then I wouldn't talk about three weeks then.

What would you say?

What?

I mean, the guest speaker, the speaker is going to get it, say, ten days, and give it ten days.

He says, I either, I'm not going to, we've been here for that, the Justice Department cannot go on it, I'll either, either I want to vote, if I don't get it in ten days, I'm going to crawl away, and they do that for five years.

Well, everybody would say, that's just...

People won't understand that.

People can't understand that.

They know a Senate vote takes 20 minutes, so they can't understand why in 10 days they can't vote.

Yeah, you see, especially, Mr. President, if he has, if the committee has voted to end the hearings, it's a big furor.

Mansfield, Zach Steff will be to say, all right, there's a whole denomination.

Then he goes out and he says, all right, if you want to put a hole in the nomination, then you're just holding me hostage for political gain.

You have to protect me.

They won't want to, but I think if they know the attitude of the chairman, that that will bring them around.

I hope they've got a new chairman.

I think the fire team should do well.

Well, the other option is that if they stow off that vote tomorrow, then Dick has another excuse, which is an even better one, that they wouldn't vote me out of the committee, they wouldn't stop me from doing this.

They already voted me out of the committee.

They acted under the threat of a majority leader that he would not go on my nomination until they didn't continue to attack me.

That's what I was going to say.

I asked for it.

Go to the committee within a week, and go to the Senate within another week, or find a separate chair.

And you should divide it between the committee and the Senate.

Well, as a matter of fact, we're in the position, as I was saying to John yesterday, that everybody is spending as much time on this kind of thing as they can in the Senate and the legislature and other things.

So, my view is that...

We've got to pay whatever price it's necessary to pay.

And also, we're going to have to realize that we're going to stand unfortunate.

We've come very close, but we just haven't gotten any break in the bank.

She was good up to a point, but we got a taste of that and jumped in, dropping in that other stuff.

It gave the enemy a chance to run with a different story.

Understand, I'm not criticizing the poor damn woman, but I'm just saying that's what happened.

She was sort of discredited anyway.

The people who listen to the African-American testimony, our people, and Justice are absolutely convinced she was lying, making up her story.

She went along.

I think she did her best to get it out of it, but I think she knows much more than she does.

I don't know what is it, but just looking at it, was there a deal?

No.

That's the point.

Was there not?

For Christ's sake, that's what I wondered anyway.

Well, she was just trying to make it up that there was one murder.

She got herself a little bit more silent than I did or something.

No, I think she convinced them that when she wrote that non-random as blackmail, that she was dead.

Yeah.

And it did put her through a whole game.

Yeah.

Yeah, the trouble is that we had a lot of people talking to ID&T during this period of time, and that's when Marion says, well, we'll produce Michael.

Give me Michael.

We're going to release him.

Who married who?

No, who?

We haven't talked about who else.

You can hear it in the white house.

You can have that too.

It's not during the same time period.

Oh, they were talking about the case during this period.

Sam Peterson Connelly, I knew.

He was walking down the line.

But not about any contributions.

There was contributions and settlements.

Yes.

Not at the same time.

The only one at the same time was the police.

But he opens up a Pandora's box to us.

The tenants didn't discuss the contribution in terms of the antitrust case.

He discussed it in terms of the convention.

No, he already said there was no linking, but I'm just, so I, and I think we must, because I don't think anybody, we've already read out about that.

Well, if we're going to have linking, sure, it wouldn't be with San Diego.

Well, it wouldn't be for a contradiction to San Diego.

Yeah, the Constitution could have gotten that.

I mean, if it were, it should have probably never happened.

Everybody tried to find those out, too.

Or, I mean, we don't know very well.

But Christ is great.

It wasn't correct.

Even if it was a contribution to the Republican National Committee, that's why the press always asks in those terms, the contribution of the Republican National Committee.

Then it looks like a straight payoff.

But for the city of San Diego, it doesn't matter.

I mean, that's a very different thing.

What version do you understand?

What is the fact that our media doesn't help us?

Not only doesn't help us...

I've never, I've never seen a more concentrated attempt to, not to put it nicely, but just to fantastic it.

Yeah.

It just goes there.

Yeah, it's a tasteful bug.

So they want to try to get a war on them.

Alright, well, now the thing is, do we move on trying to get Mitchell aboard on this?

Is that the next step?

If we get out of the plane, please.

If we get out of the plane, those are the next two people you're getting out of the plane.

I think if you, I think if you approach it like that, it would be a speech.

All right.

well why don't you just knock out the idea in person and the hearings are ready to go on a lot of reasons why they've got to be stopped

Well, why don't we give Jim a few extra days or that isn't going to satiate Mansfield.

Mansfield is playing a very partisan role here.

so that you know this is what really indicates that we're we're stuck with a man who can't be confirmed i think he will so she pointed out that we have only 52 votes but i i'm not sure how hard that 52 is because you you notice all the different candidates that i want to comment against that must be there who else the governor is

Jackson?

No, the Jetsons.

Well, the Jetsons have been very critical of us.

Yeah, they should have.

Oh, they're very critical of the IEP.

He's been playing the game.

Right.

They all play it because that's the way it is.

Sure.

On her brain, so.

Are they responding to each other at all?

I'm briefed.

Moschini, or did he just sort of drop everything?

Did he see pieces of it every day?

McCartney.

McCartney today has just cut the hell out of McGovern, which is unfortunate.

McCartney.

McCartney went to Wisconsin and said, vote for anybody but McGovern.

He's a phony and a janko.

He's not a legitimate liberal, and in a dramatic announcement, McCartney said he had been prepared.

to pull out of the Wisconsin primary and tell its followers to vote for McGovern.

But now he's changed his mind, charging McGovern to be traded in Illinois.

So he now says he would urge voters to vote for Chisholm, Lindsey, or me, in that order.

He's crazy as .

He's pissed off that McGovern has cornered the left.

McGovern is... Yeah, he thinks McGovern now owns the Democratic Party, and he just didn't have any courage.

Well, that's good.

He gets, like, Blitze, Chisholm, and McCarthy to rally together, and McGovern's making a lot of strides.

He's running for Democratic, but he's already going to go to the fourth party.

Oh, that's right.

Apparently so.

I think McCarthy's going to go to that fourth party, but he's still going to...

And he sure sounds like it.

Oh, of course we hope so.

I don't know that.

Wallace is missing filing dates right now, but he today, his people put him on the ballot in Kentucky on the American Independent Party.

He's now taking that move.

Oh, he's missed it.

He's missed about 10 states, and he's going to have to go into court.

But he did that in 68.

He went into Ohio.

And this may not be with his blessing.

However, it is the first indication that he's going to move as an independent court candidate.

The person raises another concern, in terms of Henry's doing an informed relations committee this afternoon on the record with a recorder.

the transcript to be provided to the committee, which he says we can't permit him to do.

I told him to cover it up with a mockery or something.

Well, the House meeting, Henry wanted to take it.

It's Henry's initiative, apparently, because he asked the House to put it on the record.

He doesn't have to report it.

And one of the Congressmen said, hell no, we don't want to do that.

He refused it.

There's ludus telehandic, that's part of it.

Ludus telehandic, that there is to be, there cannot be anything required.

And it has to be an informal meeting.

What's the name of the person?

He's got an interview, he wants to do it.

Maybe, because Wilbert asked him.

Probably.

Probably wants to protect himself.

So he doesn't have to go to jail.

Sure.

There'd be enough people there to protect himself.

He doesn't have to worry about that.

He's talking to people all the time.

He's promised that he just can't keep the promise until the rest of the year.

Put him on his own staff, people in there, we can plug them up, we can record it, and suddenly we're busy.

Well, the Texans, we get the clerk, has the word, he asked me about this, and I said, no, I don't care what everybody thinks.

I said, could you tell Henry the Jetson that he's not to...

And there's just no way that John Dean got word out of it somewhere and raised it with John and said, well, this is our executive privilege.

Since you do that, then you've got to find everybody else who's doing it.

Well, I don't see any better option on this thing.

I think we've got to get back over it.

We should have done it much earlier.

Well, we tried.

We tried to propose this same ploy two weeks ago, and people wouldn't go along with it.

I don't think I'm too surprised to be that much nervous.

But isn't that, I mean, because later you're going to realize in the last two weeks at least you've gotten some, some confusion spread around.

I mean, does your beard suck?

No, it's the only positive stuff on our side is the problem the last two weeks, so I worry as much about that.

I'm not so sure that you're going to do anything different looking at it in terms of the next one that comes up.

But the only thing he could have gone at differently was right at the beginning, to charge right out and let the chips fall where they may, rather than being concerned about some problems that we might have to keep covered up in.

What did we have to lose?

So you charge out, so you find out somebody didn't make the call, so you fire.

Well, you see, Quindy's done his own crap here, but he never had any contact.

Then he had to go back and change his story.

Mitchell did the same thing.

And that put us behind the eight ball right from the beginning.

So that's an argument for not...

The arguments are candid.

We should never say we didn't have contacts.

We should, of course, we had contacts.

That's right.

Leave it out of our minds not to talk about it.

The answer is to get the guy through fast.

And get him fast, and then hit hard.

That's correct.

I think the trick to... Now, the trick to the track...

The trick this year, in all of these, is going to be not to play their game.

The trouble is we had to try to play their game.

But our game is to pull something dramatic that just sets them back on their ass weak.

The more I think about it, the longer we play this, all we're doing is trying to push back the tide.

These fellas have got the meteor.

The part is the zeal going for them, and they stole their time.

So just pull that rough barrier up.

I'm not sure that after you ruled out a man like this, you just fucking off.

Mission of guilt, Senator.

Yes.

That's better than prolonging it.

Prolonging it is such a big concern of yours.

Well, it is that he was present to us, but not to the public.

They would, I think, figure he was a pretty brave guy.

He just got his vote, I assume he does, to close off the hearing.

I asked for the committee to hold the hearing.

They took a whole month to amend it.

There's no point in going on for another month.

Yeah, his basic appeal was give me a vote.

Vote me up or vote me down.

Just don't drag this on as a political hostage because you're hurting the process of justice.

And that puts a little bit of heat back onto them.

Whereas if he just withdraws, that's the end of the game.

They just say, well, we caught him.

And he admitted it.

Well, figure out the amount of time you need.

I would be inclined to say two weeks.

That's it.

If you can move with that, that takes you just beyond the 13th.

Now it takes you right to the 13th.

Let's try and do some work on some of our own issues, too.

We've been kindly bringing the retailers in tomorrow, which will help start on that.

Also, someone here said this weekend that on his political questions, among male respondents,

The support for the president rose significantly, which was the main event, but among women, totally unchanged.

And he triggers that food?

That's all the preference he's getting.

He doesn't trigger it by RTT?

No.

But he doesn't ask about RTT?

Well, yes, he had it in him for three days.

He said he dropped it out because he was getting such a low recognition and low interest in it.

That's probably right.

Yeah.

On the case itself, if you said, is there some fishy going on in Washington or something, I would say, yeah, there's this big hearing.

Yeah.

We've got to pass over it.

We've got to get the goddamn thing shut off.

It doesn't stand.

It's more an impression.

It's more of an alienation of people.

He said he ran into questions for three nights and he was getting so little response to it that he just dropped it.

But what he's getting...

The thing is, as far as this sort of thing goes, it doesn't do much in the family.

Not to the man in the office.

No, that's right.

All it does is a little, Christ Almighty, even Johnson, for Christ's sakes, you know, all the Bobby Baker stuff, it didn't hurt him at all.

No, it was not a bad thing.

He was hurt for other reasons, but to my amazement, in 1964, if you remember, he had a set of assistants.

here there's a huge question the only one we really have a problem with here is

for the reasons I mentioned.

It's got to get his profile goddamn low, and keep it low, and on and on.

You find out how he happened to get on that program.

Here's how he did it.

Well, it was a mistake.

It was Ziegler's mistake, which Ron readily admits, in a sense, in that CBS wanted to do a profile on Flanagan, a personal profile on Flanagan.

And CBS had all that work.

Ziegler said, there's no harm in that, but it would do us some good if it were after the ITT hearings.

And that's what Ziegler told Flanagan.

Well, Flanagan then recorded the interview, but the understanding was to be used after the hearings were over.

Then CBS decided, because of the votes to run the hearing, to run the thing.

I would say that both of them made a mistake.

First of all, they would never have ever figured it was going to do any good to do anything to CBS.

That's true.

That's one thing.

Oh, goddammit.

They were out to chop him.

Well, they didn't chop him.

And I disagree with Chuck, but I don't think it did.

I don't think the planning interview part of it did any harm.

I don't think it did as much good as he thought it would do.

But that's what they're talking about.

But getting the visibility at this time was harmful, even if they were in the thing saying it was a second coming.

That's right.

Well, I don't know.

I'll forget it.

That's one of those little things.

Now we go on to the next one.

One after another.

At least you have your, uh, you know, at least you've got your colleagues who've improved well.

I was impressed they stayed and pretty well speaked up.

They did.

They did a great job yesterday.

I didn't hear a word about it until the staff was ready to sign it.

People said he was, yeah.

but we all know several times they don't get it that's our problem which is

Well, you've got this, you've got the television.

Ah, thank goodness you've got the television.

Yeah, the problem is... You'll see the problem that we had with regard to the otherwise conference at the moment.

I prefer to do that.

If I need to do it right now, I don't want to build it while I have to give and give and answer all of it to the effect, well, I'm not going to comment on that until the Senate votes.

You know, you can do almost what you did in the, you know, this press conference, regardless of the status of my name.

If you can say that, I just before the Senate's conscience has made its position very clear that on the growth of ITC in the two parts of the country, and you would turn it right over to the camp.

Yeah, that's true, but on the other hand, if you open it up at all, what about the...

contributions and so forth, just to keep answering your answers.

Answer it your way.

Those questions have been covered, and they keep pressing.

You said, look, we stopped in the great war in the United States.

No, but I mean, their question is not going to be that.

Their question is not going to be about .

Why did Pete Clinton move in?

Why is that?

Well, not so much that.

That's easy to handle, too.

They say we handle it and we just get favors.

But the real thing is the San Diego linkage.

That's my question, which I didn't want to get into.

You see, that's the one thing I want to stay miles away from, which I have not commented upon to date.

And that is the reason why...

Just as well as a...

I don't know.

Well, Mr. President, maybe you're going to get the linkage question after crimes or before.

That's true.

Why shouldn't we answer it?

Well, that doesn't matter.

I don't think you have a chance to.

I think you can take and fend those questions around by saying, no, you're not going to talk about it.

Well, you know, see, that's bad.

You can't...

You can say that in the office, but at least you can say it on the topic.

You can say that the proceeding on the Hill is one that the director of this administration, Andy Crestfield, is not.

You are responsible, happily responsible, for the director of this administration, Andy Crestfield.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't think about it.

No, that's right.

I suggest there's an illustration of the company loss on the satellite.

You're going to have to say that.

You just keep talking about how tough this summit was, and two previous administrations that ignored the unrestricted growth of the climate in America.

And you're going to be the man who said we'll stop the trend towards this huge thickness of climate.

And again,

That's the only way now to be catching bird bats.

But I don't think the pendency of the findings on mission is going to affect whether a press man tries that question or not.

Oh, yeah, well, we're going to get to that any time.

Frankly, if they're bashing one of those, those would be the best press conferences.

But, uh, we'll have to get at it.

I left the ribbon halo on the damn thing.

I'd like to answer your question, but I, it's just, my compliment is, I, you know, I hope that's all right.

You've got another right, Mr. President, and that is that all those products used to deliver to the SEC track are being covered there by the whole KC, but that may not stand to account.

And he files with the IT teacher.

And he's going to put in the calls that just, the calls I made, I guess,

It's probably him and Gleason that they've talked to for a good reason.

Right.

And you never know.

They might have mentioned language.

You never know.

I doubt that.

At least there's no Gleason in the anniversary.

You see my point?

Yeah.

That's Gleason.

That's the stuff.

There's one thing I can't get Mr. Wood up and say.

There was nothing.

I'm down to see that's the problem with both my niece and Mitchell.

They both made the error.

of saying, I never talked to him.

And I never, I never wanted to do that.

He's not the most to do that.

And then you discredit the witness.

I mean, the, in a very different sense, it was the way we broke the case.

His mistake was not stealing the papers.

His mistake was why?

When he said, I never knew changers.

Now, he could say, well, I forgot.

But the moment you proved him a liar on that, he was destroyed.

And then all the rest on round, and that's the problem we got here.

It's quite bad.

There was an offense.

Here, there was no offense.

But when we look back at my side of this, that mistake was made before .

That's why he died.

No matter when you answer that question, sometimes you'll have to.

You've got to divorce the two issues.

One is our proceedings on the other, which you shouldn't have paid for all of that.

But as president, you are proudly responsible for the antitrust record that's part of the record in the administration.

I just think every damn question, regardless of how they ask you to answer it,

Which, uh, because the people sit up there and they watch and they say, what the hell was all this about?

This record, was this good?

This is an inscription.

It did stop at the elaborate version.

Who can be arguing they got something down there?

Dave.

I built the record.

It's all on that bus.

It's okay.

It's all about it.

And of course, I guess we should have a word with Carl.

Carl?