Conversation 696-001

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Mr. Kappner, you're Mr. Kappner.

What's that?

Yeah.

Why?

Well, there is a committee.

That's right.

Yeah, we're not going to have it.

The only, he, Finch has been pushing to have one because he wants, he has to have a meeting of his cabinet committee on Spanish-speaking people, which covers ten members of the cabinet.

So I told him to go ahead and have a meeting on Spanish-speaking people, but you don't have to do that.

It has to, under its charter or something, has to meet before the end of March.

Typical Mitch thing on the 29th of March, he's urging a cabinet meeting.

I don't know why you're not having that.

Oh, this is a good idea.

We shouldn't have cabinet meetings just to fill time.

Those are counterproductive.

Then he can say he doesn't have one.

That's his problem, and it doesn't matter really whether he does or not.

You had mentioned it earlier, we're going to run it in on some cabinet.

We could have just, well, yeah, or just call that a...

What I meant is, why don't you just wait for everybody's time when I'm all here and see.

Except there's nothing to hear.

Hard to see an agenda even for that.

I'm not surprised.

Well, it looks like spring may get here yet, huh?

I don't know.

I haven't been here in a long struggle.

Or you could have always said so.

Well, it's come along.

Come along.

Well, let's see where we are today on the planet.

Okay, where are we standing?

Well, take a look.

The usual problem first is IT&T, and that's what I meant.

And the sixth component of that decided, well, I called Mitchell yesterday afternoon.

Mitchell said Eastland had not made a commitment to McGregor, and that Eastland did not feel there should be a closing of the hearing.

And that he did not believe McGregor's intention that Eastland would vote with him to close.

I made the point to him.

Does Mitchell realize the peril of continuing the act?

Not completely.

Mitchell's, well, let me summarize this.

He's aware of it.

If you understand, Bob, the reason for closing it is not the one who's closing it, it's the other who's closing it.

The reason for closing it.

is because I see, with Gleason and others hanging out there, that there's probably danger keeping Hope and I who could fight the public relations battle, and Mitchell doesn't probably.

Mitchell's view is that Eastland feels very strongly that they should close the hearings next Wednesday rather than today.

It won't be except today and next Wednesday.

They have the two witnesses that are favorable to us that Mitchell wants to get on.

which are the secretary and legal counsel at IT&T.

Anyone wants to get along.

And Mitchell feared a close, a peremptory closing if we could get it today.

What happened, and the net result of that is Marty and Mitchell's instruction wouldn't talk to Eastland.

As a result of that, Eastland called a session of McGregor and Marty and himself at 6 o'clock last night.

At that session, Eastland said to McGregor, I promised you at 9 o'clock this morning I would vote with you to close the hearing.

And I would take a vote on that tomorrow morning.

I'm now revoking that promise.

I will not vote with you.

So that settles that.

We now have a problem here.

Marty and Mitchell play a different game from the others.

What's the matter with Marty?

Marty's getting what Mitchell tells him, or Ford is telling Mitchell what he ought to think, and then getting Mitchell to tell him what he thinks.

What does Marty think?

Does he think that Clancy has been confirmed?

Yes.

Does Mitchell think so?

Yes.

Did he tell him that?

Yes.

They think they can have a vote?

Yeah.

He says, I just don't believe they can hold the Senate.

on a filibuster or on a hold.

He's hanging on a cover just like he did on Andrew Carson.

It's the same syndrome.

I agree with you.

It's a vote.

That's right.

It may be right.

It may be.

And here's where we are.

If Eastman won't vote, you're not going to raise him.

So what happens is that Eastman has committed

supposedly to holding the hearing today and a hearing next wednesday only for the purpose of hearing these other two witnesses and then closing the hearings and then eastman will be happy supposedly the problem our guys colson particularly worries about is that eastman will you know he'll get shoved over again by some people and that's because that's a risk but we really don't have any it doesn't make a choice that's right

The choice now is whether you follow Klein's, that Klein's withdrawal today, or whether you wait until next Wednesday, which it seems to me you have to do.

There's nothing gained from calling him today.

And Mitchell, I'm sure, would fight it to the death.

But we've now got Mitchell in a position, I've told him what the view is, that Klein's can't be confirmed, that we're faced with a filibuster, and that the...

preferable option if the thing is going to go on is for police to withdraw.

And so we believe that that's hanging there.

He ignores it and basically just doesn't speak to it.

So that's, I think we've done it.

We're glad we chose it.

I understand.

And that's the way things go.

Okay.

At least it'll be out of the news over the weekend.

My partner is absolutely, because Eastman, he feels, well Eastman says, he's redeeming on his promise.

My partner, you know, doesn't feel, you know, redeemed on his promise.

And so when you take it to your status from, you know,

Park believes that if a guy says yeah to something, he's got to do it.

Eastland believes it, and then Hyderabad believes it.

See, Esau is in an interesting position.

He's in two different ways.

Park and Colston are just doing the best they can.

and what it is.

That's it.

Let's go to the back.

I don't know, I mean, this is something.

And you see, Steve, you have some of the medium kids.

Kids are not only five percent small.

I mean, there's been no significant movement in the economy.

In the name of God.

Up 0.5%.

I'm not down on this now.

They're up over 4.5% or whatever it is.

Continuing to steady your eyes.

It's gone forward.

CPS happened.

This guy has a pretty choice of stuff.

They're reasoners.

Apparently so.

I haven't heard it in here, but I saw it.

Well, they're getting off that fourth wall.

Hayes was in control of the one-time aberration.

He's better.

Watson wrote him a letter.

Yeah.

That Hayes is considering an apology, so.

Hayes, for Christ's sakes.

Amen.

Oh, he kept throwing stones.

Oh, wow.

A good cross-housers line, eh?

I think it's scared the hell out of them.

Well, the way it strips them a lot, they just aren't going to have that start opening up.

Now, take a note.

I want the search department files really poured over to get us to know why some of these people would have been drunk.

You understand?

I mean, we've got to do it now.

If you've got anybody, who have you got over there?

Just say I want the information on some of the worst contact centers in Congress that needs to get it for me.

And do it very quietly.

When I say for me, I don't mean that we have a request for it.

I'll put it this way.

We've had a request for it.

We don't want to fulfill it until we take a look at it.

Are you ready to cover the, cover the, uh, thing?

I'm monitoring this.

Who is the Treasury Security Guard?

A guard.

He also chopped with some, some guy, obviously, that they have on the security thing to keep his hands.

Yeah.

That's Richard Harris in New York.

Neat cover, man.

Big deal, isn't it?

I really don't know why I just said, well, the love magazine is pretty old in New York.

And they're republishing him in advance of all that stuff.

And I'm not just sure that we, the boys, don't get too obsessed with that.

Oh, we've got a lot of American.

You used to have three or four pages on the old American books.

The Catholic magazine.

Yeah.

I don't know what I meant is, look, anything like, you've got to cover life, you've got to cover time, you've got to cover news, you've got to cover U.S. news, I just say circulation of a million or above or something like that.

What do you think, really?

I think you could cut down on a side of, I just got to mention, let's take circulations and reach larger things.

Why the hell do we want to reach a million?

Some of the obscure things, sometimes there's an article that has some significance, not because of its circulation, but because it shows it.

Scott also wants to try to talk about keeping Mormons in peace.

That's a way to put it here.

That's a way to fight leftist activity.

But look, this article here by Richard Harris.

Harris is a left-winger, telling it way back, you know, arousing the public fear of the Communist Party.

Constitution, bugging the D.C. crime, but it's bugging the D.C. crime to a negative.

John mentioned another policy issue.

That's sort of like covering the underground press or something.

They just, they do all the negative things, too, but that's basically, the New South Wales is basically negative in its approach.

Mansfield was thinking to go quite as far as that wire indicator.

He says he hoped to be sure he wouldn't move too fast.

He framed their hands and took advantage of all matters.

In honor for a reasonable time, he holds.

Eastman said they've got a kind of a problem.

He came up with a game.

You know, it's hard being there.

Herquine had a good line.

He'd get us out and get back in the way.

He was at a big school features thing.

Is that the one on the, his children's march?

Because he whacked that.

He did a big battle on that and got national coverage on it.

Was that a school meeting?

You know, my brother and me, he told that not-matzo ball story against the other big states.

And he had a press I heard four months ago.

Three matzo balls in a can, rather than four.

So it's the Jews cheating the Jews.

Who the hell cares, man?

Who the hell makes matzo balls?

You know what that is, don't you?

Sure.

That's a Jew thing.

Absolutely.

It's a country thing.

There are no Gentiles involved in that, and the goddamn Jews ought to police their own thing.

I mean, it's a cave, like some foxes don't have as much, don't make as big a cave, man.

Yeah.

All right, well, about those things always go on, don't they?

Sure.

Candy bars get smaller in cases.

Yeah.

Candy bars get smaller all the time.

I mean, he says he was amazed at the almost hysterical reaction from the White House.

That's...

Yeah, there was a reaction to one of those.

By the way, apparently, George says, and it's interesting, we're working on trying to do something with it, but it won't succeed.

But Glenn Salati, on the prize board, the professor, he's a dean, I guess, in Florida State or someplace, apparently breaks a meeting and really put it to it at this thing, and nobody's reported one word of it.

One guy, this little meat professor, stood up, put the great man on.

Anyway.

Lawrence Mitchell came out against Bussing.

That's a surprise.

That's pretty good, though.

The NAACP, that ought to have some effect in the South, don't you think?

Yeah.

I think there's a good dent in John Belay in there.

He's going to stand in the South.

Of course, he's being racist.

Of course, they just robbed this Jew up in Detroit.

Now, a great amount of power in the hell out of him.

What do you think?

I was saying, I was saying.

leaders can stop and continue to seek an amendment.

That's all right.

Clark's meeting with them this morning at 11.

Yeah, I mean, that was a nice suggestion.

I know.

But he wanted you to go.

He's got time for a set.

And it's one of our problems, you know, when we, our staff is also going to have to overwork because earlier we never started depending on them to do this, you know, to pull it together.

All right.

You can't bet on Schultz to sell this.

That's how I heard of him.

Well, he's got a reason for putting Osborne in, I think, because they're right.

Otherwise, you can get a lead on where, not because of Osborne, but because of what other people will pick up.

Tell them to put up the 19 districts now.

The 19 cases where we just have a, we're reading it off the record.

You'll have to call her up and put it in there.

The board has to have this job.

I didn't ask you about it, you know.

You didn't get a chance to ask, to answer that question.

Yeah.

Oh, here it is.

It's not worth that much of time either in a news summary, as much as we may love it.

The same is true of Kevin Phillips.

I would say, let me say, I'll say the same thing for Victor Lasky, Ralph Toledano, a good friend of mine.

There's no, Phillips is now writing good stuff.

His newsletter, whether it's good or not, it's really not, it isn't really worth our putting in, unless you're putting in a political summary for somebody,

I think there's too much columnist stuff in here.

Kevin Phillips' little circulation is probably a thousand.

The people here who need to know that kind of stuff get the Kevin Phillips newsletter to begin with and should read the whole thing, not just a synopsis of it in the December 81st.

They're all a little obsessed with the political thing.

Yeah, there's more than there should be in that one.

There's more than there should be.

Hi, how are you?

Just quickly to thank you for the great group.

And I'm sure Keith and you will.

And on... Perot has... Yeah, I know.

the deal of a million dollars.

But he's talked to Dick Walters, and Walters has come and told us about it.

Well, he said he wouldn't talk to anybody else.

No, no, that's fine.

We set it up throughout.

No, no, I'm not complaining about that.

He didn't talk to Kissinger or me.

He said he had to talk only to you.

Well, their proposal is to release 31 ill or mentally incompetent prisoners over a six-month period if we give them a million sections.

Now, they seem to be putting forward this proposition through a number of channels now.

My recommendation is, Mr. President, one, that if somebody puts over a million dollars, it's for U.S. government and not a private individual, so that you can get some credit for it.

Secondly, that we draw out this discussion with Perot a little bit to see what other authors are being surfaced in other channels, because there's this fellow Seymour Hirsch, who's also...

Hello, I've met Baller.

He's been talking to me for an extra year if he wants to.

That's right.

Oh, Waller, I didn't have a point to you, Bob.

I was going to say, Waller is supposed to tell him that he was negotiating secretly with them.

Say, sir.

Oh, yeah.

I told Burroughs.

All right.

That's why I told Burroughs that he was... Burroughs.

All we wanted to do was shut Burroughs up.

That's right.

And say the government refuses to listen to this great opportunity.

That's right.

And I think the second thing we probably wanted to avoid...

Having Perot playing, he did it himself.

So if we can get in on the act, if it does work, it's, I think they're cranking up a big piece of interest.

Is that a good act?

Is that a good thing to do, to put up a million dollars to buy off 31 people?

I think that's a big piece.

Well, they start raising it.

Yeah, well, that's right.

It wouldn't be if you put it in terms of medical supplies.

Yeah.

That's what it is.

In terms of medical supplies.

And also that that hasn't been our position for a long time.

They, as I told you, they've now accepted the 24th.

And with the proviso that we go back to the other meeting, I've asked Porter to come back.

I think if we go back to the other meetings a week before the 24th, then we'll have had a two to three week interruption.

And then if the 24th fails, then we can break them off again.

The second thing, I didn't have a chance to write it, but there's the Pakistan foreign secretary here, and he...

We just can't, Henry, we just can't break over on these foreign ministries, not even Pakistan.

Well, the trouble is, it's been given a really miserable deal at the State Department.

When they gave the dinner at the Pakistan Embassy, the only person they sent is the country director.

No undersecretary, no assistant secretary.

And what you're seeing is all the people.

Well, give him a dinner at your house or something.

I don't think we just need to give him a dinner.

I just saw another formal appointment.

If I could bring him in for ten minutes.

Yeah, let's work that way.

It's the principle.

You just can't now through November, you can't go down before Secretary Root anymore.

I just can't solve it in the state.

I mean, we've seen the foreign secretaries.

I mean, they have time for prime ministers.

They do talk to the Chinese a lot.

I think that's one of the reasons.

And we're going to give them a lot of goats to swallow in the next few months.

In Denmark's country, they're going to be pretty rough on them.

They've invited Boggs and Ford now to enter.

Are they going to go to Boggs?

Yes.

I beg your pardon?

Are they going to go to Boggs?

They sent him a formal invitation through Watson.

Watson gave her six hours...

I called Boggs and Ford, Ford heard that you were listening.

When?

Yesterday, asking, you had asked me to call.

Good.

And that you had made the original approach, you couldn't be too specific because you wanted to see what their reaction was, but you were happy to tell them now.

And then six hours later, Watson put it into official channels and they notified them, but you couldn't.

I called them yesterday noon, and they got notified last evening and said...

They're probably tickling.

When are they going?

Well, they will go whenever we want them to.

I told them not before June.

Well, I'm changing my mind on that.

I'm going to send them the same time that Mansfield goes.

Now, there's a deliberate reason for that.

He should be on my mind.

He's going to hand something to me then.

So that's my order.

Carry it out.

All right.

I don't know whether the Chinese will take them.

Well, we'll just see whether the Chinese will take them.

Okay.

Man, if you were stopping to get this kind of thing, we only have one airplane we could send.

It's just too goddamn bad.

We haven't had a thing with Mansfield.

That's just what it's going to be.

He's given it to us.

We haven't worked it out.

We've got everything.

Let Mansfield sway a little bit.

The major problem now is with the Chinese because they had specifically said they wanted, when we went to them about Ford and Boggs, they said fine as long as they're separated at the time.

We at that time told them that that was all right

But we can see that when the formal invitation comes in, they haven't yet come to the formal.

Have them go before Mansfield and Scotland.

That'll be better.

Have them go before Mansfield and Scotland.

Okay, we'll go down on that.

Now that's very important, Henry, very important.

You've got to put it to Mansfield.

You've got to put it to him.

I've got no excuse.

He's playing a rough and ruthless game on everything.

The board A, he's playing a ruthless game on the clienties and the rest.

And we just give things to him.

That's not fair.

You know what I mean?

I have always thought that Mansfield wasn't that same league quality I never saw.

That's right.

But you're right.

I mean, that's the better thing.

They do can't go together.

But put Scott on the floor if you can immediately.

I'm sorry, but it was an option for it very quickly.

And you say that's when they're going to work it out, man.

Let's put Mansfield and so forth, but let's put them so close together.

And any of that, if they go at the repeatedly average, let them overlap.

I mean, let one go so quickly afterwards.

All right.

that they don't get the advantage.

But I prefer to have, just say Albert and Ford, that they can't go at a later time.

They claim that they can't go.

Do you know what I mean?

You can screw up the gold, you can screw it up any way you can.

You can't send them together, I understand that.

They fight like a bunch of cats.

Well, and also, it's what the Chinese expect.

I'm not sure the Chinese have...

They've done everything they've asked.

They've done absolutely everything the way they've asked them to.

And they haven't harassed us publicly enough.

Before Mansfield goes there, no matter when he goes there, I'm going to have to very seriously talk with one guard that that son of a bitch doesn't come back with a Vietnam piece left.

Well, also, he can't...

He's got to be governed.

I'm sure he doesn't come back with a Cambodian piece in Miami.

Well, I mean, I think of China.

Arthur, the trip to China doesn't fuel the onslaught on us.

And...

I didn't mean to say that.

Thomas, have we, do we have any control over the date of the, of the, of the Mousetrap Mansfield?

It's that time.

No, they offer two different dates.

That's offer two different dates.

And Scott is driving us all crazy.

He's in every three days with a different proposal, screwing Mansfield left to drive whenever they come in.

How does he screw it?

What do you mean?

Well, he comes in and then wants us to go to Mansfield and say this date isn't suitable.

He makes a joint proposal with Mansfield, then he comes running in and tells them, in effect, to turn down the date that he signed it.

Mansfield.

And...

He's so devious that you never know what his game is.

That's right.

He's playing our game at the moment, and Mansfield's not.

Oh.

And I don't know if I need to work it out, but let's put your mind to that and put one of your balls on that and see if there's a way to screw Mansfield on this journey.

You see what I mean?

Actually, I think...

If we get coordinate and boss over sooner, or...

I think it's in our interest to have Manseel on the latest possible date.

I agree.

Because he won't come.

If we can get him to come back shortly before Moscow, for example.

Yeah, yeah.

He can't launch a hell of a launch.

I think it would be very good to have him come back almost to see if we could push both of them right into the Moscow period.

That would be very good.

Right.

Do you know what I mean?

Because...

Well, Ford will give us, I suppose, good publicity on China.

Ford, all of them.

But Mansfield, just in case Mansfield comes back with any idea...

I'd like to have Mansfield come back, for example, Henry, after you've had your 24th meeting at least.

Oh, yeah.

Well, he's... Scott talked yesterday about a date on April the 16th.

Yeah, but if he leaves on the 16th, he won't be back until the 5th, so...

They're planning three weeks again.

Yeah.

Oh, well, tell the masters.

They'll die.

But if they went on the 28th, they wouldn't get back to May 18th, and you'd leave on May 20th.

I mean, can we push it a little past 28th?

What I mean is, I want them to get back so that they get back while I'm in Russia.

See what I mean?

And then have Ford and Albert, if possible, Ford and Boggs,

And have them only go for a week.

I'd say they only want to go for four or five days.

Tell them.

Because we really can't spare them.

Really work that way.

And then have them go just before we say their history.

Now we have no commitment to a man to deal that needs to go first.

We just have a commitment that needs to go.

These folks only want to go for three or four days.

So they go over for three or four days.

It's about time we prayed our house in a little.

Well, I think that Mansfield has been nothing but trouble for us.

He will probably stop short of an all-out-on-flood until he's been in China.

So if we can get that screwed into the Moscow trip, that will be until the middle of June, before he can really unlimit.

By that time, we will know what's going on in Paris, clearly.

because two or three meetings, two meetings, three at the utmost, should tell it.

I thought we could have the second meeting if the first one isn't a total fiasco.

I could do that out of Ireland on the way to Moscow.

I mean, no one will be watching.

Come back at night.

Well, listen, Lee,

Pull around a little bit and push the... How do you work this out?

Do you talk to your channel to tell them that it would be better for Mansfield and Scott to go away?

Well, first I'll talk to Ford and see how he feels about going early.

And tell him and say how they're going early and going for four or five days.

And then I'll talk to one and see what they're thinking.

And let the Chinese invite them.

They may not want to do it, Mr. President, I just may.

I understand.

Because if you remember the Chinese have a commitment to Mansfield.

If they do not want to do it, Henry, if they do not want to do it, then get the Chinese to invite them back to back and put forward a number so that they go over right away.

That I think I can do.

And then they can, you see, that way they can sort of copper the other's plan.

That I think I can do.

And also we can push Mansfield's return into Europe.

That would help us in a lot of ways, because if he comes back drooling about the Chinese and the Russians, we'll begin worrying about the Dremel crash.

Good, good.

Why don't you do that in any event?

Push him into that.

Say, I don't know, how are you going to go about it without him talking about it?

I'll go ahead with your cause with anything, but no one knows how to save the Chinese.

No, but I mean, what would you tell the Chinese?

Just say that this would be the best date for them?

I'll do my best.

I'll do it enough.

You understand that I understand that there are some things that are not possible, but you just see what I mean.

To the extent that you could put more in Albert

I probably can't with them before, and I can, but let's play around with it.

At least let them back immediately afterwards they should go, or even catch the last part.

And I think we should play a very hard game with Mansfield.

Don't let him get back here before we leave for Russia.

Don't let him get back.

I mean, on this view of the Pakistani, my feeling is just because of the bridge to India and out to China,

for a handshake.

He's coming in to see me at 12 and I could just walk in with him at 12 and leave.

I'll make myself responsible for getting him out of here in five minutes.

And it wouldn't be an honor, but he could tell Foucault that it would.

All right.

I might just come by your office.

That might be...

I might just come by your office and say, hello, I'm sorry, I've got a meeting I have to speak to.

That would be... And then that's it.

And I'll send at least ten pictures.

Just one sentence like that.

I'll put it on camera.

Is Matthew there?

Yes.

No question about it.

All of China.

A lot of China.

Four-fifths of China.

Tell me this, why is this little prince, the king, he is really dead on his fingers.

He's not going to tell Rodgers anything.

What was the trouble there?

I thought his face was bleeding.

Well, yeah, that might be because they keep going around hanging out from the door and never being able to do anything.

But you noticed he said, I'm not going to tell him anything.

Well, because they leave.

Because he's an impressive guy.

He sure is.

Well, anyway, good luck.

Well, I'll talk to you at the teaching service.

They're our friends, remember?

Oh, you'll knock them dead.

Thank you.

Now, we'll go back and stand for it.

Next time, we'll leave a silence for it.

But that you can handle.

The other, the harder we make it, for example, the French foreign minister or Alec Hume or any of those, I'm just not seeing any more.

Or the German foreign minister or Bob or any of the rest.

We turn it down, we win a fair amount.

We talk very hard about it.

That's good, as long as you make it hard for him.

He's a good soldier, Bob.

He's fighting all the time.

I've talked to him about the TV thing, and he understands.

But we can talk about the other plan, though.

He's all set on that, cranking on that.

He questions the advisability of his doing very much local TV.

And he says, if it's the right thing, then he can do it.

It's okay.

But the problem is, he says, I can't avoid making national news.

And I'm not sure that you want me to make national news on local TV.

What do you do with CBS?

I make national news on CBS.

He isn't totally consistent in his views on it, actually.

Jesus Christ, the National Illusion CPS model is unbelievable.

But he's...

But how do you explain the CPS?

Well, I'll outline the thing with him.

First, the...

The thing that they wanted to do on the 10th of July post here, they said that this article was a lot on Wainwright.

Do you remember that?

Yeah.

She did a hatchet job on him a few years ago, if you recall.

Yeah.

My wife's Wainwright stuff is always, what was it he did on me?

He's their general hatchet man.

And he'd been coming forward to stop her when she said that she would be hammered.

I can't remember .

Well, I have an idea of the way, sorry, the selfish, the ego, the passion, the desire to lose some of your people.

You know, there's an incredible amount of politics.

The one who told them that they ought to separate off the worries of working on a high-risk thing, the infected test, the staggers, and the rest.

So we aren't able to judge these things as we are.

Why don't you have them put in a separate political center?

Well, they do it anyway.

If you fire a politician or someone, you know, let it go, let it go.

It goes to the full list.

Let it go, let it go, let it go.

Forget about it.

They're going fine.

They're going to feel bad.

You know, they've got all parts of God over there.

That's right.

Somebody talked to Nick.

It might have come to their workout, though, I must say, or some of them.

How would you handle it, would you say?

I'll talk to Mark.

Just say, look, we do this all the time.

We go over, get overloaded to the political, which is focusing the people in here's minds too much on the political.

And also, we ought to concentrate on

that I think there's got to be more concentration on what's affecting people, and therefore less on the colonists.

Maybe they throw in something now and then it's okay, but I really don't believe, I think this makes a hell of a lot of difference.

Everybody greatly overestimates Osborne in my opinion, his influence and all the rest.

What the hell do we care?

Let's see what way that comes out.

So we write it, and then we thank property.

John Osborne said that, so we change what we do.

Is that right?

Why do we want, why do we have to see it then?

Only so we know what it is that we do.

We're ready for our attack.

But everybody doesn't have to read that in order to do that.

And most people read John Osborne anyway.

If people are ready to read, read the column, sure.

I see.

So they don't really need a summary.

Oh, it's a small example.

I mean, you've got Osborne, you've got Dolphins, you've got all the rest.

I cut them all down, plus or minus.

Yeah.

Uh, you know, could I make Timmy Schenck-Lansky do it?

I think they should.

I think Timmy Schenck-Lansky are irrelevant.

You know, much as we love them, they're irrelevant to the dialogue, aren't they?

I mean, they're not going to affect other people.

The only thing is they...

They are where we get some of our land that then we can use.

If you get it in a bomb, then someone can pick it up and say, I just ripped today, such and such has some value.

At my scale, friendly, they would want to do it.

You sell them in the air?

Sell them in the air?

They don't pick last week.

They pick up the others, but they sell them at last week.

No, I think what it is is that I think there's just natural tendency and all of a sudden rude about what Sears and those people are doing.

And I understand that.

But I just wouldn't have everybody rude about it.

I'd say...

Maybe you're right.

Maybe you have to prepare the political analysis for, so that we can be more hard-headed and more editorializing.

How would that be?

And not for general dissemination to the new summary people.

Does that make sense to us?

Because we're, I think so, because I think we're getting out more political stuff by then.

It's getting more and more political all the time.

A third of it today is political.

And that's why people are not looking at things that way.

The general public doesn't.

I do think it does have an effect on your staff people.

They read all the political stuff.

Who said what?

Jesus isn't that terrible?

God damn it, I just wouldn't get too excited about it.

Well, they do such a good job, I wouldn't want to criticize them.

But you know what I mean, I think you could come down a bit.

You asked about Russell Kirk, he's only 53.

Good shape.

He would be delighted to talk to you if he can.

If he can, he says it wouldn't be worth your time to talk to him.

Why?

Well, I think he doesn't talk well.

No, I think he is.

He says that a one-on-one with Russell Kirk is not a worthwhile investment in the president's time.

Then he says, I do have an idea of the president's interests, and he wants to put together the conservative columnists, and I'll get together with them, Lawrence Whitechapel and all that.

You can't even realize the purpose of my job.

He says not to get a column with Russell Kirk or the conservative columnists.

I don't give a goddamn about the conservative columnists.

I really don't.

He also says, NISPAC...

he doesn't think would be practical because he talks in the abstract and wouldn't have any worthwhile input except for giving you some quotable material for speech as well.

Again, that's what you were asking.

Where is somebody?

Is this the one?

Robert is that.

Is he still in California?

I guess so.

He's 59.

And let me tell you something.

The problem, Bob, is that we have

too little out of our, out of our research group.

That is, frankly, stimulating .

You probably don't agree with this, but it really isn't.

Now, I see it's not really very fair, and it's mundane.

And even the stuff Patrick purchased.

I mean, they're all busy and so forth.

It's mundane, trite, and goddamn good.

I mean, I just, I sometimes need to talk to somebody that has a different idea.

Let's go ahead and get Kirk in and see what happens.

Thanks for talking to me.

If it isn't productive, you've only lost an hour.

You've got a lot of unproductive hours.

The whole purpose is, frankly, is to sit around and chat with him for a little while, what he thinks about the state of the world, the state of the country, and so on and so on.

He'll tell by himself that goddamn Russian poet.

But it was interesting, yeah.

I mean, I don't think some of our people like, like, you know, the Fry's, Buchanan, Sapphire, and so forth, realize that, you know, it's because they're all part of a bureaucracy now, that they become, the people are, they wash out.

they become less, you know, and they do, yeah, they become basically bland, negative, not stimulating, not creative, you know, yeah.

I did a rundown.

You raised the question of family activity.

We have done a hell of a job with Julie.

Since we started scheduling her, she's done three things in New York, one in Illinois, one in Ohio with television, one in Jersey, one in Tennessee, two in North Carolina.

You pointed out she's been in North Carolina and Florida.

In Florida, she does what she does there.

One in Georgia, one in Texas, one in Pennsylvania, one in Missouri, one in California, and one in South Carolina.

She's been covering the ground.

The reason that she's done as much more than the other sisters, she's willing to do it.

Tricia, we've got to work on it, and she's lost.

I know, but she's willing in the abstract.

It's harder to get her on the specifics.

And she doesn't, it's interesting, she doesn't have nearly as good judgment as Julie on what's good.

Trish obviously is, her intelligence goes not to the direction of public presentation, but rather to the analysis of things.

Now, where Julie sees the SPR, I agree.

Well, what we want to do is to sit down

and get a whole sketch of the prize, not only for Julie and Tricia, but for Pat, for me, pulling out of the White House.

And Mike White, like Julie, probably is not going to accept that.

Well, it is.

This is a review, because that's over three, four months.

I'm thinking now, right now, that it's going to be a better necessity of getting her into...

But she's done some good things, like St. Louis, where she did that salute to God, and then she went to the Gateway Arch and did a 30-minute television interview.

San Antonio, she went to a bilingual educational classroom, gave a speech to the Girl Scouts, and did a half-hour television interview.

It's amazing.

Well, she went all the way to the National Center for Disease Control and did a TV interview.

She's done a hell of a thing.

That's right.

But she figures she's on herself, too, with the partner.

Maybe she is the one.

Put her in the scheduling.

Well, that's what I wanted to do.

Put her in the scheduling with Carter.

Right.

And he said, well, my mother should do this, and Christian should do that.

Yep.

She might even help online.

One thing, speaking of the art thing,

I was going to ask Alex about this last night.

Do we have a plan where we let the, we use that damn Kennedy Center stuff every night?

I hope we don't leave those boxes open.

Never.

Who do we use?

We give it to congressmen and senators.

Congressmen and senators, Kevin, people use it for personnel, people use it for recruiting.

Let me ask, do we for example be sure we run those by people like Conline and Rogers and things like that?

And they use them.

They don't use them a lot, but they use them some.

How about congressmen?

They're a pretty good group to butter up people.

I've never seen anybody thank us for it.

I've just been wondering, wondering if they realize what it means.

I don't know.

That's an interesting question.

I wonder whether we've been thankful we haven't seen them.

Oh, I don't think we have.

I'm curious.

I just have never heard anybody mention that they've used them.

And who grabs the allies?

No, Shelly's the one.

Shelly Buchanan.

But it's, they are very careful to be sure that they're running.

Captain comes first, Congress comes second.

Well, we're not trying to do it for therapy.

We're trying to do it for... No, no, no, no, no.

It doesn't seem good.

Actually, you know, when the Capitals are going to fight other people, they're not really good at it.

I see.

I do think about how you've got to have somebody to host it.

Well, what we're doing is using the...

The Colson office people, that's fine.

And they're the ones that do the best job.

What do they do?

They're like bell-type people and things like that.

I think we're using it for financial contributors.

We're using it for...

you know, shaker and mover types that are, whenever we know that somebody's in town from Ambulance Insurance.

Shirt shoes.

That's what I mean.

They are.

Now they're, we've got 28 seats to fill.

So you've got every night and every night and night.

So we don't always have the... No.

I did a monthly session.

Let me say that when you don't know, let people around here do some video.

But we always don't.

But we have, I guess, to say one emphasis that I think could be helpful.

I think it's a beautiful congressman.

But I think there's some of those guys now.

Let me, I'll give you the last month of December and give you a little feel.

No, I don't want to know.

I just want you to know what my concern is.

Well, I think it would be amazing if it wasn't for Congress.

I think we're getting rid of them in five.

That's all we need to know.

A guy was there last night.

Barbara Franklin was there with three women and three men.

I like her.

She's working on it.

I like her.

She really likes her.

Pat doesn't like her.

No, I guess it's that band.

What the hell is that about?

Tanya Stewart doesn't seem to like anybody.

She pitches the Nixon accomplishment.

She's sort of Julie Stoller.

I'm wrong.

Throes, Throes.

What was the greatest honor of the day?

Barbara Franklin.

I remember Julie.

I only read it because I remember Julie.

What's the matter, did they have a fight with us?

I don't know.

Barbara was probably pushing someone for a guest list.

I don't know.

Barbara Franklin, is she married or something?

I don't think so.

Well, anyway, maybe Pat hit a thing.

Pat's too late, because Barbara Franklin's done more in three months than Pat did in 13 years.

Pat did too much.

Pat, it's a wonderful gown, pleasant, nice, good image, and all that, and accomplishes sales.

Not much up here.

That's the problem.

Ann Armstrong's done a better job than Pat has ever done.

Yes, sir.

Barbara Franklin.

No, I just noticed she's always pushing something in.

That's right.

She's got some ideas.

She's a hustler.

Now that makes people mad.

She doesn't just comfortably sit back with the old gang, but she's working them too.

She got Gladys O'Donnell a job at the environmental protection thing.

Oh, Gladys is doing something now, making some hay out of political hay.

But that's all good.

You know, that, the federated women look to what you do with Daryl, and that's a good shot to give Daryl some good space and good spots.

You know, you've got to say, one of the best things we did was to get him around this trip.

He looks better.

Yeah.

He looks better in tone, yeah.

That's one of the reasons we want to change out the support.

God Almighty.

Of course, I've got to fight these battles.

What do you think, though, about the local television?

Do you think Henry's right?

I think it depends.

I don't think it matters if he makes some news.

I think it's great if he makes some news.

Particularly out there.

I kept turning it back to Henry, if you'll cover what should be done on television, which is not news making, but rather in public interest.

It isn't going to get you any big national news type, but it's going to get that audience impressed with the kind of job the President's doing in foreign policy, rather than with the substance of our foreign policy, you know, technical positions.

You've just got to keep working on that, because he called them and ran out of the gap on the other way.

Well, but did you put it on any other, you didn't put it on the basis of the substance that you ordered?

Oh, no, I didn't.

I didn't believe it.

I had to put it on both grounds.

Well, maybe you're right.

Because if it's just, I just do it on a day, God will change the day.

God was so good with God.

And I said, what I did was say,

Well, we're going to have to do it after Russia did it all.

And that we sure don't want to get into it now.

And it defeats the purpose we were after, reopening the channel, because you're not going to get to it.

I said, well, I could twist it.

And I said, yeah, but that's going to be the story of it.

You can override the other.

When you get into a discussion about three-mile amounts and all that, you've got a problem.

It doesn't do us any good with the TV audience.

If you want to do that, you should write an article supporting it.

There's stories of kids going off on the call.

It's like Pete Flanagan going on that silly-ass trip.

I mean, they're both just wonderful people and everything, and they'll look straight arrow and get the hell chopped out of them.

You know, it's the way it works.

And Henry's going to be called.

Henry's called as a mean bastard.

Also, I'll tell you another thing.

I'd like to put them to CBS.

They haven't been too good.

I mean, they were all right on the China trip.

I agree, but right now, they're not quite good.

They're never going to be good.

Don't you agree with me?

Well, none of them are very good, but why give CBS some right now when they've been playing a pretty rough game lately, huh?

Why?

Well, at least they're not worse than anybody else.

I don't think we can... At the moment, at least CBS hasn't met me.

They're not much better than recently.

Well, because for some reason, Ryder isn't giving much headway.

He isn't making a selection.

He isn't on a selection.

Now, what in the hell reason?

Because I don't know.

Hell, I thought we made Ryder, but I can't believe not on her.

There may be some inner politics bothering them.

He may be getting whacked by people.

He may have been over-scheduled.

Somebody got jealous of him.

Well, and they may have seen that he didn't do that.

He didn't come quite through the way they thought he was going to on that.

They might have gotten a few nasty letters.

I don't think they were...

I know they did that, but they may not have been too proud of him themselves.

Because on an objective analysis, he didn't come through as a high-class newsman.

I didn't think he did, but I may have been crazy.

No, but they had to have seen that.

You think so?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, they won't admit that to us, I'm sure, but in their own counsels, they have to have looked at that and said, Jesus, we put a too big guy in the major league here.

Didn't do so well.

They must know they should have had Cronkite or Severide or somebody.

They should have had a little more class.

Severide's a jerk, but at least he would look right sitting in front of the president.

You put your finger on the whole thing.

That's why he's got to do something.

Well, I don't want to be critical of Parker because Julia tells me he's a smash hit, you know, in terms of beating things up.

But I know that Julia has talked to me about the need for better overall planning for his schedule.

Parker agrees.

And you see what she's getting at.

And I was just thinking, the need for overall planning of my schedule.

I talked to Parker and Jacob about the, you know, your mail.

And I went through a lot of that.

And they both, there was no defensive,

They said, you're absolutely right.

Well, they all completely know.

And we're working on finding this lead.

I don't know what we can make news on this lead.

The ship's on that.

That guy, I think this is... Well, I don't know about that.

Let's see if the facts are important.

It does, on the next week thing, we've got, we ought to, we ought to think some, could decide, well, we've got this Catholic thing, you know, that, well, I, if I have a little of a brain fog hitting Philadelphia twice, I think you're quite, which I didn't object to, right?

If it were a Catholic thing in different cities, it wouldn't bother me, but I just wonder about going up to Philadelphia twice and going to something obviously Catholic.

Well,

Here's the thing.

The argument for it was that we may have a tax write-off thing for non-public schools.

If we had that, then going after that Catholic education deal could be a hell of a thing to do.

You wouldn't announce it there.

No, no, you couldn't do that.

But if you're not going to support that, they don't think you should go to the Catholic Educator's Committee.

What you would do, they feel that your remarks should not speak directly to them.

There should be a separate announcement at a later point, but that you should sort of skate around it.

And have the announcement later and announce it afterwards.

But if you're not going to go for it, and Erland thinks you may not, he doesn't think they're really going to come up with anything.

He's sure of it at least.

And the fact they are supposed to know what kind of a word they're going to say, I don't know.

Or when they do that thing, any Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday the next week, they wanted you to keynote it on Monday afternoon.

It doesn't make any difference what day you know that.

There's 14,000 attending this conference.

There wouldn't be that many at the thing, I don't think.

And it's a different kind of thing than the Cardinal Crow and the Sons of Italy dinner.

and separated in time by two weeks, right?

And by, what the hell, by the Canadian trip and some other .

Now there's a possibility that,

for next week, there are two other possibilities that are kind of interesting.

One is, on Monday, were you to stay at Camp David Sunday night, Easter night, on Monday, you could go to Gettysburg.

No, I thought you were going to do that.

We just did one autonomous service to Florida.

No, I really didn't know that.

Yeah, that you just do.

Wait a minute, what was your other plan?

Well, the other thing is, we had a plan for an office called Four Outstanding Young Farmers, you know those?

No, no.

I like the young farmers.

Well, now these aren't kids, these are...

I know, I don't know, I used to want to go 35.

Well, okay.

I just think the farm thing, I've just got, I've got a bus out there and everything, and we're just, we just don't want to overreact on farmers right now.

But we had set up for an office thing, you know, we...

The alternative is one of them.

His farm is 15 miles from Camp David.

And if that was it, Monday morning, you could go down and visit his farm.

All you can find out there is high food prices on a local farm.

That's what you're doing right now.

I just don't think it's a good idea.

I don't think it's a good idea.

It just gets into that issue, in my opinion, right now.

I think we'll get into that.

I think at another time, I should go into it, but Connelly will be meeting with the chain store people today, and on the 12th, Grayson will be meeting on that.

And the emphasis now, the other thing, and I agree with people, I agree with people that if I go to the farmer, there ain't any way to discuss it without getting into the farm price thing.

I'm on both sides of that issue.

So we have to offer that.

And I want an office for all those four young farmers.

I'm not going to have it.

Not this time.

That also gets into the same issue.

And we've got to be real hard-line about this.

Okay.

The other possibility.

Another possibility on the way to Florida on Thursday or Friday is to stop in Kentucky at Fort Campbell.

where the 101st Airborne Division is returned home.

And that's the last ground combat troops, last major ground combat troops from Vietnam.

And this is one, again, the PR types all think would be a sensational thing, as well as the military types.

What they would do would be a half-hour ceremony of some kind where you could go

they troop and review and it's a military type of case but vietnam is a good issue for us that we're not in front on and it may be that it's a good thing for you to do and it's a way to hit kentucky which ain't a bad place to hit uh it's way also exposed to quite a bit of fact you know the networks did mention the number in vietnam got to less than a hundred thousand well it would be at this time eleven hundred vietnam returnees

And it is to highlight the truth, withdraw the business and all that.

They're going to have the ceremony.

Actually, it's scheduled for Friday.

You can do it Thursday afternoon or Thursday any day if you wanted to go, which next week.

If you're planning to go to Key Biscayne, we were booking on either Thursday or Friday.

You've got to be back Sunday night, so you ought to go on Thursday.

Oh, you ought to go Thursday.

I think so.

All right, and if you do that, we can do this on the way down and then put it, put it at least at a time or maybe it's going to get TB.

It may get TB, but it kind of is not going to make them unhappy and they're going to have to deal with their child all the time or something like that, you know.

Yeah, one o'clock or whatever.

Yeah, there have been so many, there have been, you know, the temp spot and the networks

Some of the magazines should piss on the Vietnam veteran.

You know, like in the Coruscant inspections over there, you know.

Well, this is a chance for you to turn the nationals thinking around a little bit.

Hey, you have to say something there.

You have to.

Yes, I would.

But it should be very brief, because it's a life of stand-up out in the Marines.

It's like Pendleton.

I would not read something.

That sounds pretty good to me.

How does it sound to you?

I think it sounds good.

It's much better than going to a farm.

Yeah, it's a better issue.

I see your point.

That's too late.

It's a good issue, but we're all on the good side of the farm thing.

A lot of substantial public services are carrying the ball, so let them carry the ball.

I care about the farmers.

Who's going to...

See, Butts has gotten pretty well-boxed in here, because Humphrey usually would be up squealing to the farmers if the administration doesn't care.

But if he does that, then he can't kick us about the price I'm saying.

Yeah.

Can't be both sides of that.

Yeah, I mean, he's wearing better shape.

Just did.

Well, good.

Well, that's an event for next week.

Figure one every week, would you?

an event that is tough, that is so basically hard to lose in public.

That's what my, you know, what my memorandum was trying to get at, which I think you will agree with.

That, uh, first, that I have this, I really have two conclusions, I guess.

I don't know about these things, but I have two conclusions.

One is that we have a hell of a time getting any

good coverage of salt in the beginning.

And it's probably too late to sell anything that salt has got in its company, it's lucky.

I agree, you know, like this going out, like somebody says, well, go out and kind of weld her mother in the ass or some damn thing.

Well, I just don't believe that they're going to take it from me, Bob.

I don't believe it.

And I've gone through it now.

I've turned down the... What do you think?

I heard the Boston girl, the most March of Dimes, most of the poster, and...

Well, I guess she made her couple.

Pat did the little poppy girl.

She got a match wire shirt.

She got just as good a story as you got on the retarded.

Isn't that great?

I think it's wonderful.

Sure it is.

Wonderful.

I know I had Calvin Hill, too.

You had Calvin Hill and threw a football around.

And then, you know, it was a...

And it was a good little story, but it's a, so Pat, that's the poppy girl, that's a good little story.

Right now, it doesn't mean, I don't, well, let me put it this way.

You know what we, if it's the thing we land on, it's a sort of complete turnaround from what Tom Lee's deal used to be.

When he first came in, he meant they got to see the president as a warm man, so, in addition to the leader, but you know, he was all for the warm man, who the bar water show and all that kind of crap.

I think all that was useless.

I don't think it helped.

I'm sure it didn't hurt.

But you've got a good, solid family, man.

Nobody's going to talk about you.

You're not a guy who runs around or debauches.

Nobody, well, what I can say is that we're talking about something else.

The hungry image, which all of them point out, is that you love your body.

greater God, and more, and next is cold and reserved.

But my point is, so I'm cold and reserved.

What the hell can you do about that?

I can't overcompensate for that.

That frustrates people who know you because, well, in a sense you're cold and reserved.

They also know that you're not real.

And they think other people ought to know that too.

They all know that when we have dinners and we have church lines and all the rest of it.

They're not really better people than any of these assholes.

Because you're in a arena where they're all alone.

I know, I know, because they're so political.

But you see, my whole point is, and here I come to my conclusion.

Listen, folks.

wire service girls, society girls and so forth have seen me hundreds of times take care of little kids and try to be nice to them when they're crying.

They have never, never, never given me a break on it.

So what the hell are you going to do about it?

We've got a sapphire in there and he tries to put it out and they say the White House is trying to create the image of the president who's not golden reserved.

You see, it doesn't work, Bob.

That's right.

If the Lord, remember we tried to take more and he tried to put, remember when I went out

He was so cool, but it kind of led to the home for the incurable.

So it was quite a damn moving experience.

It really was.

It had gotten out of God damn thing.

You wonder.

Tell one story and they don't have to come.

But really, it wasn't much.

It wasn't worth it.

It was a sensationally good story that nobody saw because it's one story at one time.

That's right.

So it might be wrong in some way, that maybe now, I think we were right to try.

I guess we will have to try.

I think we made some headway out of it.

I think we were right.

I think we've been right in maintaining the hardworking president thing.

I think we've got to stay with that, because I think people like that.

I think we've got the courage and boldness kind of stuff.

This is, we're in good shape.

Because you've got to keep doing that all the time.

So now, I think your analysis in that thing is exactly right.

And I think it's a relief to our minds in a sense, and should be.

That we don't need, that there's no use trying anymore in doing that stuff now.

Once in a while you're going to have to do something like that, like you have to do it with a retired child, I understand, because the organization was mad at us.

We had a problem, but let me say, don't do it again.

But see, now muscular dystrophy you were supposed to do, too.

I turned that one down.

Pat's doing muscular dystrophy, I think.

And see, she is now, as I said before, she's the honorary chairman.

She is a national celebrity in Miami.

And she is good at it.

And she is, you know what I mean?

And they all came to her empathy for her.

So Price let them continue to pay her to pay him more.

But you were supposed to do the church fellowship.

We were supposed to do the March of Dimes.

And the Boys Loves America, I know.

I know every one of them.

And this year, I think we can do some of those too.

Can I ask one thing?

I have not seen Agnew in any leadership meetings lately.

He's been on the road, especially in leadership meetings.

Is there some reason that he does not come?

He, when I was vice president, that's the one meeting I would never miss.

You know, I miss a Capitol meeting.

I usually try to make security counsel at a cabinet meeting.

I really didn't mean a goddamn thing.

But the leadership meetings, I was there because, you know, I'm on the Hill.

Now, Hagin doesn't spend much time on the Hill.

He doesn't spend any.

Doesn't he?

No.

Well, that's a little better than that.

He doesn't see senators in Congress.

But goddamn it.

The leadership meetings are politics.

And Hagin will automatically be the ass there.

I wonder if you could see if he's being informed, that sort of thing.

Oh, I know he's being informed.

And he is not, well, his car's sitting in there.

I don't think he's here.

Oh.

But he isn't doing any stuff.

Well, maybe he's sitting next to us.

Oh, don't you worry about it.

Get somebody else to kind of work it.

But anyway, I just sort of thought, speaking to him.

if you ought to be there.

On that, where everybody's negative anyway, it'd hurt to have another negative man there.

You know?

What do you think, you want to not do that Catholic education?

Well, I'm not saying I'm not going to, if I have a, but I guess, if we're hung up, let me say this, on a Catholic education, unless I'm going to come out with something positive,

That's where it rises and falls.

And that's all I can say.

That's not really what imposes that, you know, as a matter of principle.

But the difficulty here is that I, of course, have always favored, for other reasons, and that has a hell of a lot more to do with politics or those other little polls from Harvard and the rest that say it doesn't matter, the Catholics don't care about closing their schools.

I don't agree with that.

I don't give a damn whether it's right or not.

I believe in Catholic schools.

See, that's my point.

Yeah, others do not.

So we start with that proposition.

Now, if we can get any kind of thing out of Conley, I'm going to go for it.

That's what I want to do.

I want to tilt it that way, and I don't want the domestic council to chop it up.

See?

So I would say that... What do you think the cabin education kind of has?

We've got to go to the captains.

I don't think so.

You look blatantly.

Hell's fire.

And I don't think the other thing is a problem.

Philadelphia's close by.

If you were going out to Chicago twice to do something, I'd say that wasn't a good idea.

Philadelphia's only a 30-minute drive from here.

But it's a quick run, and it's kind of like doing something in town.

If we did, the thing to do maybe would be to go right up, like go to Camp David one of these mornings.

And do their, do their opening event.

There's some events that you're not being here Monday anyway because of that egg roll.

So you don't have to do it anyway.

But it's, well, you know, they've got all that noise out there and everything.

Sure.

The egg roll on Monday, yeah.

That's what they're setting up for that.

And if you do that, it'll be a non-thing on Thursday then.

You ought to do the calculate thing early in the week rather than .

Well, but we won't, the other problem is we may not know by the time .

We've got to, well, we may not know whether we've got, which way the decision goes on.

This is Wednesday.

Well, could we maybe try to find out today whether or not we are going to have a decision.

And then have a good ten minute and think of it.

Do you want to give in on this eighth day, or do you want me to fight that behind the scenes here?

My view is that if we have a fight, we create a real problem.

We're staying too long.

We stayed too long in China, and that was bad enough staying too long in Russia, and in some ways it's going to be worse.

Because there will be less picture stuff coming out of Russia.

And maybe Pat can find enough to do it.

I think it's too long.

I don't think the idea of rush day one more day of rushing makes any sense either.

We may have to do it.

Henry's playing it.

See, they want Henry to offer polo.

That's what Henry's playing it as, but I'm not sure.

I think he's doing that because I think he committed to eight days to him, and he's trying to get it.

It's like he did with the Chinese.

That's right.

God damn it.

Bob, he did that, you know.

Henry was devious as hell on that train.

He wasn't devious on that one.

He was blatant.

He just moved in and said, you'll be there every day.

You remember, though, that my talk, I said, no, Bob, we're going to the country's great.

Remember, I said it was too long.

And I was exactly right.

We could have done it all in four or five days.

And I see he's urging on Russia that there's so much more substance that it's going to take more time.

Well, that's just a lot of bulletin, and he knows it.

I mean, all the goddamn substance that we can do it in two hours, and he knows that, too.

And you know, the thing is, when you get over there, he's got to realize he's sitting around in Russia.

That's the problem.

He's just going to look like hell.

I mean, what are we going to talk about?

I sit in that Kremlin all day, every day.

What in the world do you do?

That's what bothers me.

We get there, and you sit there all day Tuesday with nothing to do, and all day Wednesday with nothing to do.

And you have your meetings, but how do you...

Then Thursday you go to Leningrad.

If we have to take the extra day, we should stay overnight in Leningrad.

That'll at least break that.

We were planning to do a non-overnight.

No, I would stay overnight.

I won't.

So the thing to do is spend the night in Leningrad.

Now let's slow things down a little.

Then you got all day Friday in Moscow, all day Saturday in Moscow, all day Sunday in Moscow.

Then you go to Baku on Monday.

That's what he wants to do.

We were going to go on Sunday.

Well, let me tell you what I have to talk about.

I've gone a long way around.

First, we're going to Iran.

Everybody agrees on that.

It'll be a good ceremonial splash after Moscow.

It'll be colorful.

It'll look really great, beautiful.

Second point.

I've talked to him about the Polish, and I don't know what he's up to and so forth, but he's going to raise the green.

But I believe that if you're talking when you're talking to him, you should lean very hard on the terrible, terrible parts of the Polish, you know what I mean?

That we ought to take some risks to go there, because, oh, it means something.

He'll understand, even if we don't have any problems.

You might not, because they might control it.

They can do it.

It's going to be hard for them to.

But in Poland, I'll see some people, the Polish people aren't like the Chinese people.

They'll come up and say hello and kiss you.

They do all sorts of goddamn things.

They're a bit of a greedy cat.

So that's what Haiti's worried about.

The argument against Poland is that it will be overly emotional.

That's what we want to do.

We want to give the Russians a little something to worry about.

Also, we want to give Americans a little something to be proud about.

I mean, both Henry and Haig are thinking too much in terms of, well, how are we going to negotiate this and that?

Yeah, they wouldn't want to negotiate before we ever leave the goddamn place.

But the Poles aren't going to have a revolution while we're there.

That's all we need to worry about.

And they all jump up and down, hollering, and say, thank you very much for the lead.

So the Poles, I think it's a very good deal also.

You see, the way I do that, do the Iran.

It's one night in Iran.

Yeah, one night.

Dinner, one night.

And then we ride the janitor in so we get a good reception.

Good reception that night.

Dinner time the next day.

Have her meeting the next day.

And then on to Poland for one night in Poland.

And then leave the following day, Poland for Washington, D.C. Leaving at a time so that we get in here again around prime time.

It would be very easy to leave around 5 in the afternoon, about 5 or 6.

Wouldn't you have to leave a little earlier than that?

Not much.

Maybe just about that to get in here at night.

Because you have all the time to change.

That's good.

You can leave a rod in the way to get up there.

You know, leave a rod in this lunch that way.

Have lunch on the plane.

Get to Poland for an afternoon arrival in Poland, and then have to spend the next day in Poland.

Dinner, a sneak, the next day, and go do a little touristy.

Poland would be a good place to do a little.

Yeah.

Do it, because I think it should just be the reason that you might just see some people.

And I just have a feeling that Poland is a goddamn important thing.

We ought to try it.

Now, Henry says, well, what the hell is he going to do with a lot of rockers, and he only rumbles around, and I say, God damn it, send rockers to Naito from Moscow.

I mean, he ought to go there.

Rockers shouldn't tag along through Iran and the other place.

There's no God damn reason for him to.

He looks better subsequently if he doesn't.

You haven't talked to him yet about his trip, have you?

You've talked to someone?

Oh, it was your agent.

Yeah.

It was your agent.

And he said to go to NATO and all that.

That was beforehand?

Your agent beforehand, NATO afterwards.

And he did what?

Does he plan on the day of NATO?

No, he's planning to stay for the NATO meeting, as I understand it.

Oh, well, that's great.

That's perfect.

He could go at the NATO meeting, and I go where we're on, and Poland, and then back.

See, NATO's not at Brussels.

It's in Bonn.

That was before the ministry meeting, too, right?

So therefore, there's no reason for me to come through.

I shouldn't.

You shouldn't go into bombing anyway.

One problem, that is, that damn Eisenhower visit to Russia was going to be nine days.

Really?

The one back in 59?

60?

Sixty.

Nine days.

I forget the plan for what he's going to spend them.

Yeah.

Is he going to be in the Kremlin?

He was going to stay in the Kremlin one night, and then it's possible.

So they want us in the States several times.

Are they going to have us stay in the Kremlin a whole damn time?

Well, that's what they're saying.

I think we've got to try and see.

Henry thinks that's a big deal.

Oh, shit.

American people don't.

He pointed out, I think he's probably right, that the reason De Gaulle and none of those other people only stayed in the Kremlin one night is because that's all they wanted to stay in the Kremlin, not because it was one of the Russian ones.

Because it is apparently too good a setup.

Well, Henry's judgment is not good in this.

He's looking at it in terms of assemblies and so forth.

But Christ stayed in the Kremlin.

It's like stating that Gestalt became a New Yorks.

You know, the Kremlin is totally, well, it's a fort.

You just sit in that damn place and you won't see a goddamn soul.

And there's a real advantage to getting out to a guest house or to your place.

Now, they've also said if you'd like to stay at a dacha for part of the time out of town, they'd like to have you do that.

And I'm not so sure that's not a good idea.

I would.

Which, again, makes you drive around a little bit.

Well, let's have that outside scene.

Get me out of the crime.

Get me out to a 20-dacha.

I'd like to stay at a dacha.

Well, of course, moving around.

That's a problem for everybody.

for everybody you know what i mean it isn't for me but you know what i mean you got to move the staff the communications and everything else there's something to be said for getting to one spot and staying there maybe spend one night in the criminal and then stay at the at their guest houses that's what that may be easier way way way out of place their guest house is close by yeah but then they said you're going to stay there

Well, let's say that my brother-in-law has, you know, he'll do it any way.

He says they'll do it any way they want.

He says, you know, they have the Camp David type thing that you can use outside of Moscow.

He gets houses 15 minutes from the Kremlin in a very beautiful place.

The Spotsail House, the Ambassador's Residence is seven minutes from the Kremlin.

No, but they don't want you to stay there.

No, I don't want to stay there.

They don't want you to stay there.

I'll be tied into Rogers then.

I think we ought to shoot for the one night ceremonial night in the Kremlin and then stay in the Guest House.

Rather than staying in the Kremlin all the time.

You get a little more freedom in the Guest House than you do in the Kremlin.

I know.

You've still got the problem of being bugged, and they're totally, the guest house will be totally in control of that.

It's possible, obviously.

I don't know.

I wish somebody could get over there and see it.

The ground on his head.

I just found out he was going to deliver three television speeches while he was in Russia.

The reason for that was that

Khrushchev, when he was here, that was the time we just started the exchange.

Now, I did a television speech in Russia, and Khrushchev did meet the press and threw a few things when he was here, and this was the return, and that's all that was.

Now, of course, we've got to figure out what we might follow there.

We should follow something, you know what I mean?

But we've got to get going on that.

Christ, I'm going to go through half his prose on that song.

He was going to give a 30-minute speech in Moscow, plus translation.

to an hour, and 15 minutes in Leningrad, and 15 minutes in Kiev, plus arrival and departure marks in each airport, plus a press conference in Moscow, which State had set up, and then Eisenhower canceled.

That's Haggard, you see.

Eisenhower was going to stay at the Kremlin on the first stop in Moscow.

I've heard her saying, the ambassador's residence,

I urge you very, very strongly to be sure you give that to Rogers.

Let me tell you one other advantage for the criminal.

He's Rogers, et cetera, but he sits on something else.

I don't, but the gas comes.

I'm afraid they might have Rogers over there with them.

Be sure of that.

Well.

Also, that's the way I was interviewed.

Also, which is interesting, Eisenhower did not have her job on the plane with him.

The Secretary of State had a separate airplane.

There's the President's plane, the Secretary of State's plane, and a press plane, and a backpack plane.

You see, Bill's, what's that called, Steve?

The East Area Bill.

Christ, it's four days off.

Yeah, they're getting ready for it.

It's a big deal.

It's nice.

It is nice.

Let me ask you this.

Oh, it's horrible.

Let me ask you this.

I'm a friend of the guy.

I see Delos.

Well, certainly not her.

And that was Mark.

But Delos used to go separately from Eisenhower.

He'd make his separate trips.

And Rogers has made some.

But Eisenhardt made some of these trips without delusively eating along at all.

It's this thing that Rogers has done.

Rogers has got to get up to his head.

Well, on this, we can't believe about it.

Well, you were in Moscow a long time.

You were there.

That's your schedule.

I'd say, oh, yes.

And if not Moscow, then Russia.

You were there 11, 12?

A long time.

13.

Is that long?

13 days.

Jesus Christ.

Before you left for Poland.

13 days.

You left on the 13th day of your death.

Well, let me say this.

For Poland.

I do not think the eight days

is enough to break a lot of China ground, okay?

I really don't.

But my point is, I'd be chuffed with it.

I'd want to get something for it.

And I think what we want to get for it is a scholarship for it.

If we get a scholarship for it, I'll stay nine days.

You know what I'm saying?

Don't say that to anybody.

I've been playing with, see, what I call a training is six.

Well, I call it eight days now.

It was really only six, because you arrive one evening and leave in the morning.

But an officer, I get them to say that's eight days, and Henry closes his stack and says, I'm taking a cheap shot.

So I backed up and said, okay, it's only seven.

So now he's, but that work, he don't have to deal with those channels too long.

No.

No, because see, from Henry's viewpoint, China, he was frantically rushing around, you know, thinks he just barely had enough time.

My argument back to him is if China, if we'd only been there one day, they would have gotten the same communique.

That's right.

They would have just fought about it faster.

Sure.

Yeah, that's right.

Those meetings that I had with Joe and Ryan was all, they began the first two days.

The first two days began the communiques.

You know, these talks, I can cover everything I need to talk with the lady with the little cane.

You're with this, and then an hour of dinner last night, and I've done it all.

I've done the cane.

Hour and a half in the one instance, or about an hour of dinner.

Sometimes it goes better than others, and I made an awfully good toast last night.

Okay, what's Henry's?

but if we do the question the moscow thing are trying to cut it now what's you don't know externally extended i'm sorry warson warson he's going to report i think he understands your position he thought he had you talked out of it

What he did for a while, when I called him back, then you call him back, and that reopened it, and Henry is moving on that basis, and I think that, and I'll reemphasize it again, that it is important.

And we're dropping turkey altogether, is that right?

Yes, we should.

I think that's right.

Well, I've seen it first.

There's nothing to be done.

I have two receptions.

Well, then there's no mileage for us here.

I know, I know.

That's right.

There aren't any terms.

Getting back to the IET, how's this thing?

We will now, the executive will go through the motions today.

Yeah, they'll go through the motions.

I think they will.

They want to do it in order to push a firm commitment on Eastland to close the next one, say.

and to limit the list of witnesses.

And our position's already, their position is already established that they should be closed.

So they have to stay with it, yeah.

And they'll stay with it and lose, but they'll lose the peace and ground that they're in.

And then they will make their move, and then next Wednesday, they will have a move to cut off the roof, or something like that.

They trust Trump.

He didn't think they...

Supposedly, he will break it down.

Yeah.

Well, that's the Coastal Security.

Except this time, Mitchell is splitting on it.

In other words, we're not divided on breaking it up next Wednesday.

We're divided this time, and Easton's playing on our position in the Senate.

You know, some of those immigrants have accepted it.

You know, they haven't accepted it.

Well, they have to.

Yeah, they've sort of, it isn't accepted, but it is, you know.

Now, what about the, what about the, did you discuss the other thing about the deal that I just didn't think you could?

could go on the grandstand and play.

They won't wash. Could they agree or not?

That kind of breaks Chuck's heart.

He still likes his scheme, I know, but you know, sometimes guys have a scheme that just won't work.

The economy saw through it so quickly.

I don't think that they helped a lot of other people.

I can see through it just a little bit.

The economy's already with it.

The press will see through it instantly and will point it out.

It's the thing that sold me under that.

Probably.

They will, too.

As the press will say, the economy is so damn well there.

Well, despite the fact that the damn thing will go on, there will be a risk of other witnesses, if they can limit it to these two witnesses.

That's the real question.

And it isn't really going on for another week.

It's going to have one more day.

At the end of my speech another week,

isn't, if it's possible, limited to these two witnesses and not Graham Gleason and Marion and all the rest.

There is something to be said for having a little stronger case.

Sure.

Or not having the plea cover-up, cover-up, cover-up.

David, neither Clark nor Chuck will argue that, but they will both argue that that's a false claim.

It won't happen that way.

Well, I know.

Because Teddy and his crew who have prevailed every time so far.

I know.

They're going to prevail again.

I wish Henry, whenever he discusses the scheduling of the trip, this is quite a subtle matter, if he would have you sit in, you know what I mean?

Of course, he sort of wings them in from out in the left field, and I'll say this or that, but I think you better sit in, because I don't know what you've agreed to, or Chapin, or the others, and Henry is not good at his own scheduling, or at mine.

That's right.

Why don't you say this, and I want to talk to, look, whenever we're on the trip thing now, if that's all getting together, and we have a meeting every day, and I feel it's terribly important, this scheduling.

You know, just take, for example, the little thing we're trying to do with regard to Scott Mansfield.

Now, by God, the more we can, if we can some way screw that thing up, Mansfield deserves a kick in the ass.

She says it'd be beautiful if they put the congressman in their head, but I didn't really.

It'd be a good kick in the ass to advance favor.

You know?

Henry Tubbs will be right.

Shall a vote, shall a particular answer vote.

It's got to be shunned back as far as possible.

You should know that that is, that's the main consideration, not who goes first.

Yeah.

The main consideration is to get a manager who will show the back as far as possible.

And that's the way it is.

I mean, because that's the way he's more interested in his guy.

Well, I guess that makes sense.

But they've got a problem, too.

The best thing for her is to stay at home for one day.

I mean, I could get lunch next time because of this.

I'm going to be very disturbed if they don't give lunch because that's very symbolic.

Very symbolic, especially if they have the green tablecloth.

Use what?

The green.

Somebody can know whether they have the green tablecloth or if they have any kind of tables or something.

Would you make a note to Anne Marie?

that he should give the Mexican ambassador a call.

No, no, I'm not writing a letter.

Please, sir.

I'm going to have the President of Mexico State can't hear me.

done any more work, and he said, we're going to visit him, and they go over there and press China.

And then I

Press cuts give us that you shouldn't have a party for them.

We should just give them a certificate and run, especially if you're a strong guy.

Now, there are two reasons.

One, you don't owe them anything.

That's a little better.

And there's no point in spending my time well and chumming around with them.

The other is that you create resentment on your own.

The rest of the press corps who didn't get to go to China, you're rubbing their noses in it one more time that they didn't get to go.

But it would be a disaster to have the Russian types in it with them.

Right, right, right.

Right, well, let's do that.

Can they get it ready?

Yeah, they had a terrible certificate, and I had to send it back.

And who was working on it?

The South Park people that they used.

And they used pretty good stuff, but this one they just came out to be kind of junky.

And, well, maybe South Park are ready to do it.

Well, this is the writing of it.

This is the layout of it.

They had a thing with the wrong, they had pictures of the U.S. and China, and a full-length picture of you shaking hands with Zhou Enlai, which is not what you want.

You just want the two hands, and I think you want that across the top.

The Boston Globe had it, for example.

Yeah.

It's that picture.

You've got to have that picture.

Look it up.

And you get that, and then you say, so-and-so, who accompanied the President, has declared a member of the New China, the Order of the New China Hands.

And then the presidential seal with Mrs. Nixon chairman and Richard Nixon president.

And that's all.

Very simple, tasteful, early-morphic-looking thing.

They were going to do the lettering, I think, to the idea of the new China hands.

They were going to do a Chinese-style type lettering, which would look good.

But I don't think you want an outline of the U.S. and an outline of China at all.

You don't want to play that.

You don't want the picture of you and Joe.

You want just the hands.

Just the hands.

And you want it at the back.

Make it very symbolic.

You know, the press thing.

All right.

One of the guests last night was Austin Kisslinger.

Austin.

I asked him if he was going to Russia to see if he was with me at the time.

And he said, he mentioned, he came from, you know, I'm a member of the kitchen cabinet.

He said, well, I'm hoping to, I said, well, you give her a client call.

I said, anybody who went in 59 who was a member of the kitchen cabinet will get a priority in going this time.

And incidentally, insofar as that is concerned, Bob, it's a very small list, probably, that are still alive or still working.

I mean, it's ten.

But it's a very nice thing.

Sure, why not pick up Austin Kittlinger?

Let me tell you this.

We talk about the other columnists and the rest.

None of them are up for goddamn.

He's as important as any.

Is that a goal?

Huh?

So when you just tell Ron that he's, you know, I'm working it up, he's to get the members of the kitchen cabinet, who are members of the press, and any of them who apply to go are to be on the list.

I select them.

You like that idea?

Sure.

I think it's a rather nice thing to do.

We've got the rest.

Were you able to catch that bill on the magazines in time?

Yes.

Where is the damn thing?

Is it in committee?

I don't know where it is, but John said there's no problem with it.

We're killing it.

You can see the reason here.

I mean, there is two reasons.

One, the biggest financial beneficiary of such a bill would be the readers' access.

And we would catch only all of them.

The people who will be, who can lease before it, are people like life.

The marginals.

Reader's Digest will survive it.

They're going to survive.

And so will they.

Life's going to get a kick in the ass.

That's just too bad.

So the long haul that helps Reader's Digest, it will knock off some competition, build their advertising.

But let's put it this way, they don't look at it that way, but they will.

Especially if you pass it over a year or so later, after the others are gone.

Why is my head in trouble now?

I mean, they have paid circulation by a million.

No, that is big enough.

Well, what if the circulation hasn't gone down?

I said, that's...

They've got to hike it up close.

No, they didn't see.

They have to hike up.

They're paying too high a price for their circulation.

How do you keep it up?

They give it away.

They do it on promotional things.

And all that to try and keep it up.

That's what's the problem.

And Look was a better magazine than Life, wasn't it?

And I didn't know that I liked either one.

A lot of them did, but I don't either.

The cost of maintaining circulation is tremendous.

They have to give special offers all the time.

So many might see 17 weeks for a dollar and a quarter.

Student rates or all the discount cut price subscriptions and all that.

And it costs them a bloody fortune to get those out.

And because their circulation is hypo, the advertisers know that.

And so they're losing advertising.

See, the advertisers don't just go on the basis of the circulation, they analyze the circulation.

This is how it's obtained.

And when they see it's hypo, they're going to take it away.

And then you do readership analysis, and the readership is good.

They have these starch studies that show how many, what percent of the people who get the magazine have the readership analysis.

What sort of, what, how many people see a page of advertising?

How many people read it?

What's the, what do they do?

Do people read the readership analysis?

Yes.

Why the hell do they read it?

Because the type of people, because it's interesting to them.

Most of the advertising has been there.

The people who read Reader's Digest are in a different mood when they're reading.

They're suddenly down to read something.

People get white, flip through it to look at the sensational pictures, see if there's a nude woman or a guy with his pecker hanging out or a dog peeing on a tree or something.

Oh, there's some interesting pictures.

Or the dead man and he's lying in a ditch or the soldier shooting or somebody raping a woman there.

There's light sensationalism, there's hurt and sad, there's all kinds of things.

It just looks like it's there.

Because they look at editorial content.

Reader's Digest, they know the readership of Reader's Digest is very high.

People who get Reader's Digest, they can read it.

What happens is people, I don't read it anymore, but you know what I mean, the way I remember when we used to do it, we always had a Reader's Digest lying around.

And one day, you know, you never know, you get it.

One day in that month, you pick it up and read the damn thing, cover to cover.

Isn't that true?

Yeah.

I used to, I'll never forget, my father always had Reader's Digest in the bathroom by the toilet.

Yeah.

And whenever he went in to take a crack, he'd sit down and he'd read Reader's Digest.

So every day he read...

three or four minutes of Reader's Digest.

And that would be one article.

And it's about the right length article for the length of time it takes to take a craft.

And I think you'd find a lot of people do that.

And it's an easy one to hold while you're sitting on the toilet.

So, you know, there's all sorts of great reviews on airplanes and things like that, you know.

It's right.

It's enormous to pick up there.

And the people who ride the bus or ride the train or something like that, you see them reading it.

Well, they were.

The missionary for this incident is not good.

Is it China?

Is that how it is?

That's a good one.

He would write a good one because he was, he's an old-timey.

Well, he was positive, too.

Most of them were.

He writes well, too.

You know, he dramatizes.

He talks about the suspenseful moment we were on.

Perhaps we were gathered at the Great Hall of the People waiting for Nixon and Joe in line to arrive for the first plenary session.

As time went on, suspense mounted in the crowd because the meeting was delayed.

Nobody was there.

Joe hadn't arrived.

And the rumors started through the press corps, something's gone wrong with the visit.

We had that cold arrival ceremony, nobody turned out.

And now Joe hasn't even arrived at the Great Hall to receive the President.

So he built this up, this suspension, as the twilight darkened into dusk and all this.

Then an electrifying flash ran through the press corps.

It's not Joe in line who's late, it's Nixon.

And he's late because he's been to see Mao Zedong.

And then the thing of saying, this has never happened.

No head of state has ever met with Mao Zedong on the first day in China.

Then we knew the visit was insured.

We've got to remember the gods of the China thing.

The whole thing is dramatic.

And I must say, all I do in my memorandum, I deliberately perhaps overplay the thing.

The lasting impact will never be washed away.

People will never, never have it washed away.

And it is going to be washed away in a month.

The only thing I can say is that now, by God, let's start planning out the concern.

And every which way, because the more I, what really convinced me is, like I said, the path went down.

I told Rose to have her call it off, but she had already well lived to do it, and the reason was because she knew the one who was there.

The older wife called the commons office and said, Rose, this is the next thing I could wear.

Well, naturally, she knew that they were expecting her, and she'd stand with them, so she went down.

But damn it, Roger Blau was there, and a lot of people I didn't need to see at all, but she stood there and shook their hands for an hour.

And I went upstairs, you know, and I made three or four telephone calls in the same hour, which was the way I should use my time.

What do you think?

Worked perfectly.

People loved it.

They knew I was busy.

They're all busy people.

Edward Clark gave the wives a chance to meet Pat Nixon.

And as I say, it's a lot different.

You know, if we had tried it two years ago, it wouldn't have worked as well.

But I can't emphasize too strong a celebrity in their own right.

That's the question.

Do you agree or not?

I absolutely agree.

So you just use it.

Use it for what it's worth.

We all are.

The night before last I went up to this French restaurant in Georgetown for dinner.

Which one?

L'Enfant des Sois, who incidentally they are, it's run by a bunch of young guys.

L'Enfant des what?

L'Enfant des Sois, N-I-C-O-I-S-E. And it's a, I guess a fairly new one.

But it's kind of interesting to run by young guys who are so balls out next to people and it's unbelievable.

Really enjoyable.

It's up in the north end of Georgetown.

I don't even know what boy they are.

How do you know?

They talk about it.

A lot of our people hang out there.

The younger, some of our younger crew has superb food.

So junky kind of restaurant in a way.

But the waiters all wear roller skates and they roller skate around to the tables.

They do give you

But the food is outstanding.

It's very good, French food.

Anyway, I was there for dinner, and walking out, and a guy steps out and says, aren't you Bob Holtman?

And I said, yes.

And he said, why, somebody gave his name out.

From Cleveland, Ohio.

And I thought I recognized you.

And I just wanted you to know what a superb impression the president made on his trip to China.

And then he said, would you come over and meet my wife?

I went over and met his wife.

And then sitting at the table was a cartoonist by the name of Barry.

Not Barry, because that's his town name.

It's Barry.

I don't know.

There's a cartoonist whose name I don't know.

But he's a local syndicated cartoonist.

And I know him all.

So he was talking about the China trip, too.

His wife then said, I'm glad that Jim or whatever the cartoonist's name is has finally met you because he has a whole bunch of terrible pictures of you and he always makes you look awful, but now he's going to have to be nice to you.

But the point is, the guy who leaped up caught me on the basis of the China trip.

And this is some cop from Cleveland, Ohio who was here with his wife for a couple days as a tourist.

And it's a, I guess a fairly new one.

But it's kind of interesting to run by young guys who are so balls out next to people that it's unbelievable.

It's up in the north end of Georgetown.

I don't know what boy they are.

How do you know?

They talk about it.

A lot of our people hang out there.

The younger, some of our younger crew has superb food.

It's a junky kind of restaurant in a way, but the waiters all wear roller skates, and they roller skate around to the tables.

They do it again.

But the food is outstanding.

It's very good, French food.

Then I was there for dinner, and walking out, and a guy steps out and says, Aren't you Bob Holtman?

I said, Yes.

He said, I'm somebody from Cleveland, Ohio.

And I thought I recognized you.

And I just wanted you to know what a superb impression the President made on his trip to China.

And then he said, would you come over and meet my wife?

I went over and met his wife.

And then sitting at the table was a cartoonist by the name of Barry.

Not Barry, because that's his town name.

It's Barry.

I don't know.

There's a cartoonist whose name I don't know.

But he's a local syndicated cartoonist.

And I know him all.

So he was talking about the China trip, too.

His wife then said, I'm glad that Jim or whatever the cartoonist's name is has finally met you because he has a whole bunch of terrible pictures of you and he always makes you look awful, but now he's going to have to be nice to you.

But the point is, the guy who leaped up caught me on the basis of the China trip.

And this is some cop from Cleveland, Ohio.

He was here with his wife for a couple days as a tourist.

And he said, we're going to be back there working for the president.

And he said, anything we can do for the election campaign, let us know.

And he said, we'll meet all up again in Cleveland.

I think the one point of comment maybe overreacts to a little too much, because he's like so many of our other people around, who sit here in Washington.

and, you know, has the impression that we really don't have any strong public support.

I think that there's more than, I mean, you've got to have some, Bob.

I mean, and you know what, that's another reason for getting to the country.

You know, every time we've gone to the country, it surprises Congressmen and Senators and the rest, you know what I mean?

And I think that sitting here in Washington, hearing the Goddamn bombshell, and they're firing at you all the time, everybody should be describing the way forward.

Curatorially, please.

No, I think he'd like to get out.

And we were talking also getting him out for a piece with the people cheering.

I think that Middlesex Club is good enough to get more of that.

I'm going to get him in Chicago, for example.

Could you just put down for one appearance for him?

Chicago Executives Club.

He'll knock them out.

You know?

That's over at DECA.

And the other thing, I think the other thing is the San Francisco Commonwealth Club.

You understand, these are good reasons to go, good reasons to go to those places.

And go on TV.

We have a great plan for Hemsworth.

I mean, yeah, we had it back a couple of years ago.

Four or five months ago, we were going to put it back on the road.

And I've been talking about it this summer, that we could, and I'll come and talk to him about it when we get up to another season.

And then if we go on the road now, you're gonna, and then your team is also examining Peterson and Romney and all the others to the extent that they can be effective.

So I say we put Peterson in that job so that he can talk so that he can get his ass out there talking.

Does he have any ideas about what he can talk about?

I don't know, he's eager.

Yeah, he has, you know, he's bubbling over with ideas of things to do with him, seeing if he's zeroing in on what would do us good.

But he has a pretty good sense of that.

I hope Peterson does.

Peterson should be better than most of those guys, better than any of those other guys.

Sure.

Politically, he's very sensitive to it, in all things.

He'd be great in college if he had some courage.

One thing that I think is, I guess he's been busy with hearings, but I think it's, I think that Rogers wants to be on some in this period.

He's been busy with hearings.

You know, Rogers, he's scheduling his college things.

That was, you know, he was going to do the last grade, but when, I thought he was going to do this.

He said, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't play it.

You're going to be able to work it out until the Moncay is the next bedroom.

We'll let nothing go if we can.

Oh, well, I don't think you can go that far either.

Well, I do.

There's another possibility.

We can go to, we just can't look at it.

We can go to Scotland.

See it at the base?

No.

There's an Eisenhower castle in Nebraska.

Yeah.

He's got a castle there.

It's American property.

Long steps.

Oh, good indeed.

Apparently it's a possibility.

That's the one alternative.

The volcano thing, I think the way we can do it is to either have him

meet you or see you off, and it might be to see you off.

We've got to let him, you know, get the act somewhere.

And what I was thinking is maybe what we do is have him and the tea shop meet you at the airport in Shannon.

That'll give him, you know, the public recognition.

And let him fly in a helicopter over and deposit you at Kilcrush.

and then the same helicopter takes them on back to Dublin, then that's done.

I think we can get away with that.

I think maybe it's better to do that than to try and keep them out of the country altogether.

But we can't keep them out of the country.

But we've just got to level with them and say there's no way.

Well, we can say, look, if you've got the D-Shock and everybody else, and if you will stay away, then he will keep them away.

I can't see anybody but his own staff at this very time.

Fair enough.

It's going to be tough.

He looks right at the camera saying, well, you can't sit down and have a drink.

No.

And some dinner.

I understand.

I love the guy.

I'm sure of it.

Yeah, but you can't get in there and have him at the house.

Not with the things I'm going to be doing.

Because with him at the house, he just doesn't understand.

His whole approach to life is just a little different than ours.

The ice in our castle, I imagine, is

They're checking it out, encouraging us, but I think we can work out the, I didn't work it out, but I'm okay then.

You might have to do the right thing.

Oh, I just got an arm injury.

Well, if we go to Poland, then... No, I meant, yes, you might have to, because you've got to stop someplace.

I'd go right back to Shannon instead.

Logistically, it's the best place to stop.

Okay.

And not spend the money, though.

I mean, there is going back.

You mean you'd go from Terror on to Shannon and on in?

Stay on the plane, sleep on the plane?

I think you're right.

We don't need to worry about the time changes or anything like that.

Tehran to Washington, what, about 11 hours?

Look, we don't need it then.

It's a different kind of trip.

It's 7, it's 13, it's almost 14 hours.

By the time we get that trip, we'll be in the plane.

I mean, we'll have the box ready and everything else.

But you have bunks in your plane.

We can still, if I try, we can lay down, lay down on the bunk and then you just bedding the violence.

Okay.

It's seven hours from Tehran to Shannon and it's six and a half, it's seven hours from Shannon to Andrews.

Fourteen hours is one hell of a long time on a plane.

I think I'd spend the night.

Don't you think so?

Or would you?

Okay.

Yes, I would.

You have a problem, don't you?

Is that committee meeting this morning?

Well, no, it's a regular meeting right now, but where does it meet?

I'm not sure what that meeting is.

You see, we can't, the Colson McGregor employee is really moot if you don't have their vote.

They know that.

So we've done the best we can.

Yeah.

He broke his word, broke his word, I don't know.

He just can't understand the guy.

They break their word.

That's right.

And he's in the living room already.

Right.

Well, he's got a basis for rationalizing it, which is that Mitchell doesn't want him to do it.

So he can say, in a sense, he was misled.

One side of the administration said one thing and the other side said another.

The main thing is to be sure that, I don't know if I got that quite across the Clark, but they don't let a story get out down there that the White House is trying to get out here and stop.

So far we haven't, the Congress, the Senators haven't stopped.

That's the way it's running.

I think it is so far.

Well, it's just so easy to establish.

As you say, the Dan and then Alicia are going to have to go to Christmas this weekend, aren't they?

Whatever they do today, you know.

Who are the two they want to have?

The secretary and the lawyer?

Yeah.

Jesus Christ, this goes on.

It's so ridiculous.

I mean, you get it.

It's like Alice in Wonderland.

You know, at the bottom of it.

Man, that is very...

To a certain extent, though, I must say, it creates one hell of a lot of confusion.

I'm not sure that it creates a...

The point you made yesterday is absolutely valid.

In answer to Colson saying we could have turned it off two weeks ago, that would have been a disaster.

Because then you would have turned it off on all the negative and none of the positive, none of the confusion.

At least, as I said, the last two weeks have not been that harmful to us.

It's been better.

They've kept it going, which is bad that it's been going at least in the right direction.

Yeah, some of them.

It's muddled the issue.

We've gotten a couple of odd bounces in our direction.

I mean, it's appeared in our memorandum, and it sounds sort of confusing.

We've raised some doubts, and we've downgraded the hearings in terms of their... We'll get to them.

Yeah.

I think they're more clearly political to people than they were...

The tendency even of the press, Bob, is to tire.

They always want something new.

Sure.

And they kind of tire by hearing, going on and on and on.

You know, they say, what can rise to this?

Unless they can come up with a new break on it, you know, with something.

They make new breaks out of the same old stuff.

Do you think we're correct on setting up a TV press conference

Not next week, but the week afterwards.

That's probably better not to screw into this constant thing.

Also, in view of the ITT thing, then the NAM thing is over at that point.

And it's before the Senate.

And nothing will be happening.

Nothing will be happening.

And obviously the Senate ought to vote them up or down.

That would be a very good line.

But they have all those evidence.

The business about, let me say, I know the risks of hearing other witnesses and opening up new doors.

Let me say, the business of cover-up is a real problem.

We ran into that.

They make that the issue.

And it's rough as a cob.

It's rough as a cob to handle.

That's something that's bothering me, Mitchell.

Well, does Mitchell think, though, that these two days will...

It depends.

I don't see why it will.

Because Kennedy is...

These two days are going to make Kennedy happy.

He's going to screen cover him all the while.

Well, on the other hand, it mitigates it to an extent.

Yeah, sure.

Because at least it gets Eastland saying, well, what about the plan in the Q&A?

Yes or no?

No.

Well, kind of right on that.

Everybody agrees that they should not do it.

I don't know.

Why did he go on television?

Oh, he didn't answer questions.

Well, at the same time, he didn't answer any questions.

You can see this about how it occurred, you know, picking up the paper and looking at his television, seeing the findings on television.

I will raise the question, why did he go on and answer questions of CBS when he won't answer questions of the Senator?

That's something I saw happen.

Sure.

I mean, if the White House man is going to retain this position, it's pretty tough.

It depends what he answers questions on.

That's true.

It's even tougher.

Well, Kessinger is fairly well covered, I think, by these data appearances he makes up in the Board of Heirs and Foreign Relations Committee, would you not say so?

He's available to anybody that wants to come in and see them all, talk to them.

I'm curious, why don't those trees bloom?

They say they're not going to bloom this year because they're recent.

If you know what I mean.

I notice that they're turning green.

Is that because it wasn't cold enough or the warm weather came too soon?

Could be.

The tulip trees got all screwed up because they bloomed and then there was that cold spell and they've all...

It's what has happened.

They've all come out against time.

It's killed a lot of them.

The bus didn't turn around already.

You just get a lot of substance from it.

So you know, and read the proposition, that unless it comes very, very naturally, that we just knock off the nice guy that...

I mean, we sure don't do them except when either we have to or it falls into, you know, the thing that's worth monitoring.

There'll be a few we have to do.

But I sure don't think we ought to work at that as one of our objectives anymore.

In other words, let there be any fallout from the very, from the heart of the disappearance.

We can't get a fallout of a handshake and a fence.

But otherwise, don't bring them in here.

Don't go over and address the Boy Scouts or Girls Nation or, you know, I don't want to do any of those things this year.

So none of that stuff.

There's not going to be any.

There's not much in it for us.

I think we're running out.

This is a very important decision.

We're deciding for seven months right now.

Yeah, but it's seven months a year.

I think we ought to drop the, you know, somebody's uncles in town.

Would you like to shake hands with them and stuff?

It just doesn't...

But we've done a lot of...

I've done all that.

Oh, yeah.

And there are perhaps 100,000 of those.

But I think we just sort of got to go on now.

But then the hard news events come in hard.

If we could get the Philadelphia thing, something to say there.

The way you'll do is to check with Earl, because he'll let us know whether or not we are going to have, that was our, we're getting cold, so you got to support them.

Cold, cold, of course.

Cold, that's cold, cold.

And if it is, I'm applying to do it, and I'll work over the weekend.

Well, I have to work a speech on it.

I mean, uh, you can't run when you need to price yourself on this.

And, uh, this, we've got that priest walking over there, isn't he?

Pricing that, isn't he?

Yeah.

Great.

Every now and then.

Because I told you, you should tell so that they can look forward to the gold prices.

You've already told Sapphire, haven't you?

I'm not sure.

I think so, yeah.

I think I would help them both.

The more I think of the Russian trip, having a couple of extra speech writers along isn't a bad idea, and also that we could have a couple of extra guys in the computer when they return.

Price is good.

Price is very intelligent, thoughtful, clean-looking, and he can do some sign-fire in his own way to be effective.

That's the one place where we blew it.

We did it.

We had a guy along with him in black, which was understandable.

That's what we thought we had.

Well, Alistair went around that road himself, and that's what we did.

I'll talk to her.

On this picture, are you convinced that that's the Jewish crime ruling again?

Or is it the ruling?

No, the, uh, it's the, uh, colonel, colonel, yeah, that's, uh, that's going, yeah, our, uh,

Yeah, and then going into a detailed critique of everything that's wrong, what's there before, so that he can work on trying to hopefully solve all the problems.

Yeah.

Now, it's understood, though, that there's not going to be any feelings of always part, and he doesn't have to be there.

Right.

And it's got to be done really long so he doesn't die.

Fair enough.

Well, I thought after I got a little sun on the floor, it would be a good time for me to come out and be in a good mood for it.

What do you think?

Yep.

I could do it this Friday.

No.

What do you think?

I could do it after the quarter.

I think that's better.

You do?

Yeah.

You haven't been in the sun for a while.

And all the other people sat around here.

He's going to... You think he knows?

He's going to try again.

We've got to try.

He seems to be the best at it now.

If you start with a new guy, you're going to have to go through all his sensitivities, and he'll think he knows how to do it.

Well, is he a portrait photographer?

I don't think he's much different.

But I think Pauly is not a portrait photographer.

I love the man, but I don't think that'll quite work.

Because I think Ollie is damn good.

He is.

He's got a lot of interest in our own people.

He's picture coverage, and he's got all the events.

It's just unbelievable.

And I would imagine that movie crew got a lot of good stuff in China, because that guy, Barry, thought he was going to be pretty smart.

He was.

And they say his stuff is just unbelievable.

It's so good.

And Miles,

and there we fall out from that but we'll never never hear we'll never see or know about but all this classroom stuff and things like that that what we said yeah well we won't pay the classroom services are doing the first movies on those the classroom thing ad and upi both have a classroom they're using our

Our stuff?

All right, so for special classroom study films that they're giving on the China trip.

And we're, what we're giving them, forcing them to cover the kinds of things we want to cover.

Okay.

you know a lot of kid awareness of china brought back up because they'll go home right it's like i know our kids do and they have an interesting assembly or a movie at school you know so they talk about a dinner yeah that gives everybody

This is, of course, remember in 1960 we used the Ambassador Friendship Hill.

It was quite effective, they say.

But my God, we ought to have, I mean, when I think of the advantages we had in 1672 over 65, well, that was a pitiful effort compared to this, isn't it?

It wasn't amateurish.

My God, this ought to be a hell of a thing.

I think we could tie a few others into it, too.

We ought to be able to get some.

If you want a documentary, a documentary, I assume you're going to run one at the convention.

And you've got several on different kinds of bases.

It would be good to cover different... Run a run right at the convention.

Yeah, well, that's what they'll use it for.

We're pushing for how far we can get on that.

Well, we can get it out of bed.

Right, right.

It isn't just for the benefit of the dog.

That's exactly.

Well, we don't care about the dog.

Well, I think it went very well.

How many did you have this time?

About three or eight.

Four or eight?

Didn't count on us.

You know, I was thinking one other subject I need to ask you about.

What about Benjamin Love Nash?

Yep, but that's going to be recognized next week, and we've already noted that.

Well, what I'm getting at is this.

If we're going to recognize the son of a bitch, uh...

I think there isn't that much mileage.

Well, they asked me at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee whether it was true that the state had proposed it and you had rejected it.

I said, frankly, I spoke about that and I said, frankly, Senator,

that some middle-level bureaucrat who's claiming credit for something he knows the president has already decided.

And that's been just a question of timing.

And he's now taking a free shot, knowing that the President has already made the decision, and I don't think you gentlemen need to worry about that one very much longer.

Great answer.

You see, that's something I traded with somebody and I didn't say what Henry could.

They didn't ask me about it.

Yeah, very important.

But you couldn't say that all I could say was that, well, the matter is under reactive consideration and we expect to make a decision in the near future.

This is infamous, in fact.

I said it's actually...

I told you to get it, in fact, but I had to sign it, see.

They had an Indian missionary there this morning, and he tried to talk about Pakistan and India, and I just laid it out.

What did you say?

I said this was a moral issue, this was a practical issue, see.

On the trip to the Soviet Union,

I got the impression from Al that he was dying to go to Poland.

Yes.

So I am...

I didn't want you to think I was getting into your business.

No, no.

No, he is.

I was just surprised at what Al told me.

Well, I think it's a bad move, but... No, he's very, very much... We were just talking about the importance of...

But then we have to give the Soviets eight days.

We've got eight days.

No, no, they couldn't have three parts a day.

I've heard this.

Because if we arrive the evening of Monday, it's almost and leave the morning of Tuesday.

With regard to the, with regard to this, all those nine days, huh?

All those nine days.

They count eight, but I'm just telling you they consider the departure date has to be the 30th.

Well, that's only two days.

That's what they said in their note to us, that the departure date.

They figure eight days, 22nd through the 30th.

But it can be...

Actually, it doesn't do us much good to leave the evening of the 29th.

When you were here, you and your father were coming to town.

You said you were going to come back.

I'm sorry, sir.

You said we...

The benefits of Poland would be very great.

Even if we go into Poland, we have no ground.

I'm not concerned about that.

It's just the fact that we went to Poland.

Poland and the Polish people in this country have a very unbelievably emotional feeling about Poland and Warsaw.

And the very fact that we went to the goddamn place.

That would give me something to say, Henry, when I go to Chicago.

I can go to those Polish wards.

I can talk about my seeing Warsaw again and how wonderful the Polish people are, you know.

And the way I handle it, it will be exactly the same.

As I handled the situation in 59, I used to sit on this professor, and he would call the vice president and proceed as vice president as well.

Never once did he say a word that was embarrassing to the Russian government.

Never once did he say anything about it.

Never used for a chapel, not a whole trip, the word freedom.

You can't tell it.

Well, the trouble is that it doesn't make any difference what you say.

The reason that Poles want you there is because it gives them leverage against the Russians.

I mean, that's an objective fact.

So you could be silent.

First of all, I think there will be a demonstration.

I do not see how they can dare to keep the Poles under control.

I mean, this is not China.

I don't see how they'll get away with it, that they can't do it, because if they tried it, they wanted to solidify themselves.

Now, that the Russians don't mind.

But also they wanted to show that they have somewhat of time, and that the Russians will mind.

I frankly do not believe I was wrong in China, but in China I figured the government might get a crowd out.

I never thought they'd be a spontaneous demonstration of China.

As a matter of fact, it was probably slightly better than it was.

I was very tempted, again, in part, of what they think you're up to.

Let me put it this way.

I'd a hell of a lot rather have no crowds in Russia and go to Poland than to have big crowds in Russia and not go to Poland.

You see, a Russian crowd is not a mean thing.

It's only a marginal benefit.

What matters in Russia is the substance.

The substance here, Henry, as you know, is really critical.

And boy, this is going to be a hell of a substantive meeting, and that's why it's going to be a good meeting.

So the Polish think, no, but I don't want to, I don't want to talk about it, but I just think you've got to say, speak to them just the way you said you were going to do yesterday.

Well, look, here I am for all I've done.

We got this from the government.

Now we're on the spot.

Now what do you think we ought to do?

The only problem is...

Right now, they're on an all-out cruise of making the summit a success.

Putting you into the Kremlin, for example.

Let me say that on that score.

I don't want to jeopardize making the summit a success, but let's see what the situation is.

I will put it to him, because I conceded.

I was at first set against going to Poland.

I have told him that we were not going, and that that's why we were going to Tehran, since they already don't like the fact that we're tagging anything on them.

So I told him, we're going to Teheran, so we don't have to go to any other country.

For that reason, they may have approved the Polish request, figuring we'd turn it down.

I've been asking that.

But if you don't mind, I think I should tell it to him, honestly.

I mean, quite candid, but they're going to say, well, I put this to him, Rogers is pressing this on him.

Look, we didn't do this, not through our gentlemen.

We came through the State Department.

You know, throw it over onto Rogers a little bit.

And it's true.

He's called over here on it three or four times.

But I can see the advantage of your going.

And in the past, it's never hurt us to have a little additional pressure on the Russians.

So it's... That's right.

That's right.

We'd have to behave with great circumspection.

No problem.

I know the problem.

You know, the reason I didn't say anything in 1959, I was afraid they'd start panning the God and Tom Sars.

The foals are an emotional people.

And so you've got to...

I really don't believe, I really do not believe they can control them.

You don't?

No.

You ever been to Warsaw?

Yeah.

You know, the God damn thing is chaos anyway, but...

Well, on the other hand, Warsaw.

It's a beautiful old city.

Compared to, compared, believe me, despite all the destruction of the war, Warsaw compared to Moscow is a beautiful city.

They've retained their balconies and, you know, rebuilt it like it was.

Well, they've rebuilt the center of town in the 14th century style.

And the only thing that they have there, and they all hated, you know, is that goddamn Russian monument in the middle of town.

And every bull front that he spits on as he goes by.

always that horrible monstrosity but you know what i mean yeah well what i think we should do then but that's for you to work out just today tomorrow is to give them everything else

It really will amount to seven and a half.

We can arrive in the late afternoon.

Well, whenever you... Let me ask you this about the state of the Kremlin.

Shall we talk a little about that?

There's one advantage to staying in the Kremlin, and it totally separates me from the state crowd, and that's that there's one disadvantage to staying in the Kremlin.

I'm a total prisoner.

The guest house probably is better...

What he told me yesterday...

I think you have no choice, frankly.

Well, what he said to me yesterday is what they want to do is to clean out a part of the Tsar's where the Tsar used to stay.

And I think the Kremlin is so large

And they are not staying at the Kremlin, but you'll be as free there, and they have gardens in the Kremlin.

Of course, the Kremlin is basically a city within a city.

That's right.

It's a wall.

It's a huge area.

Oh, it's a tremendously large area.

You know, in its own way, Russia is a sightseeing thing for people, and it will be just like China.

Except it's not quite as mysterious because the Kremlin is a goddamn museum.

The Kremlin is maybe as large as the Forbidden City.

Oh, yes.

Oh, it's a huge, huge...

It's larger than the Vatican.

Yeah, larger than the Vatican, without question.

But it's like the Forbidden City, Henry Strickland.

And so my recommendation, Mr. President, would be to accept it.

And also it's a symbol, too.

Do you think it's a symbol?

Oh, God, yeah.

Everyone, that they have done for nobody.

They called and told me to stay for two nights, I think, and then they moved out.

Maybe they wanted to move out.

No.

That was not their choice.

You don't think so?

No, I think this is a very great honor.

Now, the other point is that Eisenhower was going to stay for one night.

One night.

I understand why he had to do his whole first stop in Moscow, and then he left to go out into the country, and then when he came back... Is that it?

When he came back, he was going to stay at... Well, look, the Russians are smart.

They put us in their category to do the French, and that's fine.

That's just fine.

It made the other point that I just didn't make, that it was a flood, and I don't give you a...

So I don't give you a... That's the point, too.

So I don't give you an insightful problem.

Let me put it in priority, how I think you ought to handle this, Angela Scott.

Number one priority is push it back, better visit back as far as you can.

In other words, don't let them get back here until then.

If you can, go after them after we left for Moscow.

Let them arrive while we're in Moscow.

Fair enough.

Second point.

I'd like to have them arrive in the middle of our mosque out there.

Second point is, as far as the box board is concerned,

The Chinese may object to how, as to the order of a visit, but in any event, the closer you can put box and fork in that, the better.

So that you'd like...

I personally like the same.

I mean, I really like the rematch.

If I like box and fork, go for a much shorter time.

The Lord says, and go before.

Now, tell me what your view is.

It isn't worth fighting the man who's out left.

He said, the man's view, Bob's just no good, he's a drunk, and he's a partisan.

But on the other hand, he's voted with us on every national security issue.

And no one pays any attention.

The Lord has voted with us on every national security issue.

Mansfield has voted against us on every national security issue, and there isn't been an exception.

I think the paramount thing we have to get from the Chinese on Mansfield is to get them not to try to use Mansfield on the amount that they do.

I think that is the most important aspect.

Because you will want to come back and then go to the Democratic Convention and say, I was in China and they should have settled Vietnam and all that sort of thing.

But of course we may settle Vietnam.

You're damn right.

And incidentally, as you know, we're working on our plan so that before the Democratic Convention we haven't gotten that disannouncement we ever saw.

We'll have to volunteer.

No draftees except for the middle of June or any time in June you want to make it.

No further draft days.

And by that time we probably can do prisoners for a deadline, but...

I wish we could.

Even though they have turned it down, we will have turned out.

What Democrat can fight us?

on Christmas your deadline.

That's my point.

If we say, look, we've got this many people, and we offer that return to their deadline, what the hell are the Democrats going to say?

They're going to say, pull out with our debt.

That's what they're going to say.

Oh, we can kill them on that.

We can kill particularly where young Americans are willing to volunteer to serve in Vietnam so that their buddies in North Vietnam can get home.

Oh, I'd love to debate that one.

No service.

Their idea of letting these POWs sit up there will just kill them.

If these negotiations get off the ground at all, the tough one we will have is that the minimum

They cannot settle.

They may let us keep the government there.

If they give up the demand for controlling the government, the face they'll need is for Q to resign.

And that's going to be tough.

But that's the way, in my view, the best they can get.

They cannot settle for leaving Q in office and giving up the demand.

You mean resign, period?

And stay out.

Now, he said, in October, he said he was willing to do that, but I don't think he meant it.

He was doing it as a boy.

He's smart, too, isn't he?

He's the brightest of the bunch, and he survives.

He turned out to be right with his goddamn election.

You know, we didn't think so at the time, but he was exactly right.

He was exactly right to push to tell the sons of bitches, look, he's a runner.

I'm going to run along.

He ran along, and it was a one-day vote.

What difference did it make?

Who cares?

Most of them thought the election was perfect anyway.

And he proved to his own people how strong he was.

With regard to the...

with regard to the, uh, and if you can just first control them on that, sure.

Be sure that they understand.

Secondly, get it in lay.

They just say that we would consider it to be a breach of every understanding if they were to discuss any substantive issues, particularly the Vietnam issue, with any senators.

Now, God damn it, that's true, too.

But that's... And it violates our law.

Well, that I think would be important to keep Mansfield from coming back with a big glass on Vietnam that she claims he got from Cho or somebody like that.

That I think wouldn't be good.

Cho should really say to him what they're going to do.

Well, he can... Well, he can...

make a few formal noises which don't go beyond that he supports the seven points of the North Vietnamese, that's all right.

But if he gets very passionate and if he gives him any hot gimmicks, I'll tell him not to go beyond the communique.

I don't think he should say that.

I've stated our position in the communique and I'm not going beyond that.

And that's what drove Hanoi up the wall anyway.

Hanoi's still screaming about the communique.

And they're also screaming about your remarks at the Great Wall.

They don't stop on that.

They keep saying that the President, in strange circumstances, made the following remarks.

I just don't understand what you're saying.

Well, anyway, I think you've got it.

I think you're good.

You...

But you wouldn't...

There's a reason, you know, I can negotiate.

Okay.

Let's start with the proposition, look.

The President's first interest is in having a successful summit.

Second, we don't have a problem on this, on this, on this.

The police, they might tell you.

We're quite painted with the problem, if you know what I mean.

And how does this come about?

Tell them what we would do, that if either plan is done, it would be to fly back to

to the Iraq, have dinner, and then the next day, fly to Warsaw, have dinner, and the next day fly to Washington.

I think you can go from Baku to Tehran.

I'd have you run it two hours.

It isn't far.

It's very expensive.

Well, I don't think it's even minimal.

You'll spend it, but I mean it's... All we plan to spend is basically...

less than 24 hours each once.

In other words, it's a 24-hour business is what we're talking about.

So that they don't have a feeling that it's any other way of a safe visit.

One day is a peace plan.

It's a one-day visit to each place.

Maximum savings.

One night.

One night, one day.

That's what you offer.

One thing, I can settle this with Bob, I noticed that when Dwight talked to

to Poronto, he suggested that there be no banquet the first night.

If I may make the suggestion, Mr. President?

Yes, sir.

Well, it helps set the mood.

It enables them to give a signal to all their people.

And you'll be two hours ahead.

It's different.

In other words, if you arrive at five, I see no reason not to be alive.

It'd be a serious lie if you were dying.

They have a reason not to have a banquet.

I mean, the banquet's, I just don't get a reason to kill it.

To kill nights, you're going to have, what?

Nine days there, you're going to put in nine nights, too.

But I'd rather... Maybe you want...

I'd rather have skipping the banquet later than this.

All right.

If it can't be done.

Yeah.

I think probably it can be done.

Just when you go through a ballet, they don't also have an open banquet.

Do you have time tonight, sir?

Well, if there's a time you've got to spend the night in Leningrad, that means a banquet in Leningrad.

You're going to have to do something in Leningrad anyway.

Sure.

Or go to the ballet.

You don't get both.

Yeah.

But I think Henry has a good point in terms of...

I realize there are many nights, but I must say that in terms of getting the thing off on the right start, the...

the banter probably won't be because he's not damn close.

See, he won't have met you, he won't have spoken to you, that's not it.

So he's got every incentive to play you up.

Well, the second day, we will have had some tough talk, had some tough, may have had some tough talk.

That's my feeling.

If Brezhnev has given the father his troubles, which, based on what he's been saying, will be a letter, he does, you know, so far, because ours will be that way.

That's my only thought.

I don't think it should be a meeting.

See what they want.

I won't get into that.

Well, that's all right.

It's a good point to raise.

If you think it's important, then hell, I care about weed.

You're going to get seen now.

I'll drop by.

Yep.

That would be better.

All right.

I think we are probably going to have to do some more eating.

I would prefer, Isabella, however, to have theatrical events, gymnastic events, rather than eating events, because then I don't have to talk to the baskets.

And to the extent that they can, they're very interested in theater, they're interested in children, they're interested in sports, and you know what I mean.

to the extent that you can, and never, and that the eating, that he likes to eat alone.

We've kind of got that kind of parallel.

I'll establish that with my mom.

People know that I don't eat when I fight.

Yeah, but we've got to fight for it every time.

Do we?

Sure.

Have lunches.

Tell me if there's any success yet on getting something for Canada.

There's somebody working on a little talk up there for Canada.

Yeah, it's due tomorrow.

Do you like the idea?

Yeah.

I think we've got to do it.

We've got to do it.

Aren't we going quite a bit?

We're not doing Toronto, which they really wanted.

So they wanted it.

They wanted everything.

They wanted to go to General's luncheon.

And we made it.

which I guess wouldn't make too much difference.

We may have to trade a dinner for a luncheon.

They apparently, at least the last thing that came in was that they would rather have a luncheon than a dinner.

The Governor General.

The prime minister doesn't give a damn.

Well, that's right.

I don't give a damn what they give.

And you go to the cultural show at night, and that's kind of the way it is.

In fact, I don't think anything is as strange as anything.

But we've agreed to plant the tree.

We've agreed to go to the parlor.

What the hell aren't we doing?

We're going to have a second dinner.

No, they understand.

Yeah, because they wanted to do two dinners and a luncheon.

Actually, they wanted two dinners and two luncheons.

And a private breakfast with the prime minister.

Well, most people do.

To most people, that's a, you know, we've made the point to them that how do you spend all week in China and have very lunch with anybody?

Or breakfast.

No breakfast.

And very few dinners.

Well, I don't want to make a capital case in this instance.

We won't.

Incidentally, you'd have to have two dinners.

Why?

I think you're right.

Why should we?

What the hell is it for us?

If you have two dinners, you've got to get one.

Then we get into an awful... Or a luncheon.

It's going to work.

If you do the Parliament, I think that's going to solve everything else.

That's what made it a dramatic part.

Parliament means a great deal to them.

That's what made it a dramatic part.

We said we would.

I don't know whether they're going to push that far now.

The Parliament thing, Johnson didn't do what Eisenhower and Kennedy both did.

Oh, Johnson did not?

No.

And it created quite a flap.

That's a great thing to do.

They've got a new environment.

It's terrible importance.

Of course, you know, they think it's a great honor to be in Parliament.

And it's like our Congress.

Our Congress doesn't want to work in the same, but it's probably a good conversation.

There's a lot of him down there, don't they?

Well, I've got sort of a common ground of it.

being a parliamentarian myself, feeling I'm all in all that bullshit.

But it really matters almost nothing what you say.

It's, you know, making the appearance there and being nice.

I was about to say something.

What are you trying to do?

Yeah, I'm already fine.

But the real problem is that we do not have anybody in this lab who has the great gift,

and elements, fighting, fray, scurvy, and strange, strange business.

The price of time is really not in nature.

What you need really is a custody in Western Europe.

You need something marvelous.

Maybe somebody out there,

And that, too, may be very disheartening.

And there are great speeches to be read.

I think that's it.

We may be conservative in that context.

I think we have to.

That's why I'd like to talk to Russell Kirk.

I don't think he's going to have much to say.

probably like all people, you know, you know a conversation you can't produce or something.

It's kind of due to the fact that he writes, but he cannot talk.

And I think that's the problem with Kirk.

Writers cannot beautifully talk.

I can't talk to him.

I think they will.

I think we're going to come out just fine.

What was the problem in Toronto?

That would be another dinner, wouldn't it?

At least a luncheon.

And a speech.

And a speech, and a motorcade, and other demonstrations.

There are a lot of Americans in there.

And a war on Americans.

Yeah.

Ottawa's a little closer.

Uh, you think a little more in control?

Apparently.

You'll still have some jackasses out there.

But you just set up another opportunity for a truck.

You just set up two, rather than one, for trucks.

Like that door jam.

Right.

Now we'll see if we can raise all of them things up there.

We've done a pretty well fight.

Give me the diplomatic court, plan a treaty, speak to the parliament.

All right, I'll stand by.

I'm Governor General Sinner.

I'd like to stop the cameras.

You can see how anybody sitting here would plan it that way.

Naturally, it would be I don't want to speak to Trump.

One thing you must raise with him in the planning is whether or not I can speak to the Russian people on television.

I think it's almost necessary that I do so to deal with the fact that it was planned for Eisenhower back in 1960, and to deal with the fact in 1959 that I spoke to the Russian people.

See?

Now, wait a minute.

Is there something in that for us?

Is there?

I think it does mean something.

The American people would like to have the idea that the first of the American presidents speaks to the Russian people on television.

It's too bad we don't have him.

We should have a stronger, more dramatic man who can do the translating.

Acolyste did it in 59.

He's quite glad I had him.

What you need is a Walters type.

I'd like to see whether or not the state has a translator who has Mark Walters' personality, you know what I mean?

Meaning a good Russian, and a translator who can speak his own language.

I wonder if that, you know, Mark, if that, if that Romanian speaks Russian.

That guy had several languages.

It was the Yugoslavian.

Remember the translator who worked for the U.S. Embassy in Yugoslavia?

He was a Yugoslavian.

Yeah.

Yeah, a very pro, pro-U.S. guy.

Very pro-American and big.

Remember you spotted him when you stopped the car in the crowd that night.

He came up.

You had a different, you had Akarovsky there.

Yeah.

But this guy came up.

Because, like, Lasky wasn't with you in the motorcade when you stopped the car in town and you talked to the people in the intersection.

This guy came up, you were very impressed with him, and I got him when we got back to the residence, and you talked with him for a little while then in the living room.

He's the guy that wrote me a letter sometime later about how impressed he was with what you were doing, how deeply he remembered this trip and all that, but he was very

You might speak Russian, because he spoke a number of languages.

The Russian thing.

Slav is probably... Russian is a Slavic language, as I recall.

So I imagine... Waldersheim knows somebody, too.

uh... uh... uh... uh...

Perot was getting the same kind of stuff that C. Mark Hirsch was getting.

I was sure that was happening.

Perot's got two guys in hand.

Apparently, they're moving around.

Right.

Walters was sure they got to talk to him.

That's an ideal.

How did it work?

Apparently, I talked to Walters afterwards, and he said he thought it had gone very well.

I said, did you impress him?

He said, well, it seemed to be.

Well, Walter, you know, is a cops-and-croppers guy.

He gets so terribly arrogant and sure of himself that he's...

But you think that he ought to have an impressive robe?