Conversation 698-009

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Yeah, on the Middle East, if we could get an interim settlement, and defer the final settlement until, say, September, they are sort of counting on my going out over there in September, because you saw... We'd like to go to China, too.

I've got to go again.

It's good to go to China.

I've got to go to Russia, because...

We're going to have to use everybody in the campaign that can be used.

You can come back from China and garble around a bit.

Then you see you can do a television thing.

And then after you go to Russia, you can do the same thing.

You see, I want to be – we've got to really throw the big guns, and we've got foreign policy up front and center in that period, too.

China has been out of schedule for the end of June.

That's because of the Democratic convention.

When are they going to announce Henry Rogers going to Europe?

Let me check with the officer.

It seems to me that if you're traveling to Japan and we get announced, it might be well.

His were announced fairly soon, you know, from the White House.

But it's up to him.

I'll check with Brad.

Brad, good.

I was going to tell you that I probably should not do it Monday.

I think I'm doing it the day before the Wisconsin primary.

If I didn't do it the day of the Wisconsin primary, it would be very good Tuesdays, the better days.

It hurts.

It's go.

Okay.

Okay, so there, you can't drag anything.

Okay, we'll figure out.

Yeah, 1,500 words.

1,500 to 2,000.

2,000 outside.

And just tell Pat to get it done as quick as he can.

Has he given any reading on how much timing he needs on it?

Well, ideally, him tomorrow.

I would say not until tomorrow.

I want to take a look at it before you can let anybody work on that.

Well, I'll call another one there.

I'll work on that.

Say that we leave at 3.30 tomorrow.

3.30 tomorrow.

Okay?

Okay.

really funny now they're debating around and around and they said no we everybody said we shouldn't do this and i said we'll find the president's going to do it now put it together on that basis well then everybody changed their mind decided it was a good idea to do it i mean it was quite the domestic council that whole they had a big meeting about it you know chuck said they said

All right.

You've got the problem of two, a head of government and a head of state.

So what I think we've got to do is arrive the first night in time for a state dinner with the Governor General.

Otherwise, you're going to have to have a state luncheon with the Governor General, which would be even worse.

Lunch is worse than work.

And if you have a due problem in the afternoon, it means doing the luncheon right about the problem.

Lunch would be clear.

You'd have a good midday break.

Then...

The second night, the Prime Minister, instead of having a dinner, would have a one-hour gala entertainment.

It lasts an hour at the National Cultural Center or something, that buffet, then a buffet afterwards.

But we can knock off the buffet, and if there's 100 guests at it, you can go in with the Prime Minister and have a receiving line, receive the 100 guests, and then leave, and they'll stay for the buffet and stuff, but you don't need to drive a lot.

You're staying a lot.

That's really not too bad.

You can play it.

We're going to set it on the basis of your, basically, of your lead.

Well, if we have him on base, then he's going to need me.

That's right.

So we'll go, and that's what he wants to do.

Right.

And then I will give a return.

No.

It gets us out of any return event.

It gets the two government events.

Governor General has to have his before the Prime Minister to sit down in the interest of the Governor General, which is a break.

Right.

Because he's a nice guy.

conservative.

You know him?

Mitchman?

Well, I know that all governors now are good guys.

He's a former Speaker of the House, and he's a conservative.

And apparently a very nice guy.

And he's not a, he's an anti-Trudeau man.

So you'll probably like him.

He's a, Ambassador says he's a very sharp guy, and a guy that you will like.

So, I think now we've got

got all the rest of the garbage swept away.

And if we do this, they will be happy out of all of them, which is we might as well try and end up...

It really is kind of awkward to arrive so late, not to have dinner.

I don't really care that much about it, you know.

I don't want to do it incidentally.

I don't know whether it'll work out, but Henry put that more so a curve to it.

Okay.

Well, I thought that was a good talk, Coach, didn't you?

I deliberately let him through the other issues.

You know, I was going up with a plan to kind of give him the perspective of what the hell we were up to here.

And then we came to IT&T.

And there we are.

He came out afterwards and he says, well, I fell back into the same trap.

We kept talking about IT&T and a lot of details.

And he said, we've just got to quit worrying about it.

And I said, well, it was right at that time because the president wanted to get it wrapped up.

He wanted to talk it through and settle it.

Now we've got that deck cleared.

you know he really wants you to get some time off and then then try next week get back to work on the things where we we

Now, I realize all these bombshells are lying around.

It's always a key spot.

But there's no point sitting around looking at them.

So there they are.

We're going to blow up.

We're going to stay out of the way.

There they are.

And also, when they come, we'll just have, like, their early murder.

His memory just got a little start.

This is what we were hired on, reflecting the policy decision made where we decided that

that it should be on the basis that cases should not be decided on the basis of size alone.

That was a high policy.

And you know, you may look back and find a newspaper account for that.

I think we have a misdemeanor on the case on that.

But you could find out that that's what it was all about and that there was a meeting.

I don't think that'll come out.

I don't think that's the kind of thing

Berger would have sent copies to 18 people.

I just don't think he would have.

I mean, because he knew the sensitivity of the damn issue.

That's perfectly right in saying, you know, I don't know where they all are, so I wonder.

And that's fine.

I should have wondered.

But maybe it was supposed to be the rest of the United States.

Maybe McLaren.

But McLaren also is going to stay.

He doesn't want to look bad, does he?

But how about doing it Tuesday then, that speech?

Don't you see my point?

The day before the primary is some son of a bitch can say Wisconsin is a 50% capacity state.

So he did it in order to affect the Wisconsin results.

So now, the day after the primary, nobody can say that didn't work.

That's a good point.

And the day after will be bad, too.

It'll get out.

It's getting this immediate audience to get out and pass the word exactly.

Don't you agree?

Yep.

And it'll be sort of buried that night in speculation about what's going to happen in the primary a little bit.

More after.

You're right.

Much more after that.

That audience is starting rather than the big TV in the head of it.

There you are.

Good.

The window of that day.

Could I suggest, too, that...

Should we do it so we can go, say, around 3 in the afternoon?

Would that be a good time?

We'll try.

What do they want in the morning?

It was afternoon on Monday or Friday, Monday or Thursday, and morning on Tuesday or Wednesday.

It may have to be morning.

Well, it's morning.

It may not be in session in morning.

Not too damn early then.

Get up to, say, 11, 30, 11.

Just have me along with him.

Don't invite Pat.

Oh, sure.

Because I don't think that they should bother unless you think you should.

So I think, basically, we're better off because .

Not a social function.

That's right.

You should not.

I think you should go right over there, go into the hall, give your speech, walk out, and come back.

You know, I'm impressed by this Sanchez.

What a nice man.

He's a nice guy.

His name's Ed, I guess.

He grew up in a migrant camp, and he's a good Mexican.

But he's more than a Mexican.

He's a fine man.

He's biting our gallows.

I called him, and I said, I just want you to know.

Yeah.

I said, I want you to know that we've been watching him.

We like what you're doing, and we know it's a tough job, and so forth.

And I said, you can't out-promise the other fellow, but just say, I said, dude, one, you've got to demonstrate that you've got heart and you care.

Two, you've got to demonstrate that we're honest.

And three, that we'll produce.

We won't promise as much to the other fellow, but we'll produce, and we really care.

And I said, it's hard as hell to do, but that's your job.

And I said, I want you to know that you're here.

And we had you in this job not just because of your Spanish-speaking background, but because of your qualifying.

And that we had you in mind for another position once this was finished.

You know what I mean?

To just fight our guys, right?

Because this is a hell of a good guy.

Yeah.

And he said, sir, maybe, maybe an honest Mexican, Mr. Sergi Calvado.

Is he a lawyer?

I don't think so.

Now that is sort of an interesting thing to do.

That little, that little cancer kid came in, Ann Landers, and she had written me a letter about Julia.

She'd seen her.

You know, a great kid.

She'd been all day with Julia.

They were in the same program.

Ann Landers, gushing all over her.

Julia was pretty dysfunctional.

And so I just recognized her.

I wanted her for this gift, thinking, you know, today she's got a bikini for ten years.

I'll never even lie to you.

But it was a rather warm meeting.

As they all started to truck out of the post, his parents, I had his parents, but he didn't even think of them.

They kicked him up.

He said, he served almost, he kicked me in long hair and all the rest of it.

He said, I just want you to know, he said, I need your help, God.

Well, hmm.

Isn't that great?

I don't know where Andrew's cornering me.

But you know, this is the kind of thing that happens very often in here.

Not just here at the office, but it's this, if you want to get the warm thing across, if anybody wanted to write it off, it would be easy, wouldn't it?

Sure.

Can you imagine what that, if that happened to Kennedy, should it?

They would have that one every minute.

Every one of them networks tonight would be a minute long.

I don't think so.

I thought it was quite moving for the kids.

I didn't want to say, well, I said, thank you, everybody.

I said, I didn't hear it.

And that's coming from the heart.

That's how you would do it.

What I'm asking to you is that you have to describe what you first came in with, what you're going in with, and all the rest.

On this, I want to talk about birthday calls and the rest.

We do see a close-up coming from this.

I just think that was my earlier thing.

I just think I'm not going to have any more.

I think it was a great idea.

And I'm not sure we should write people letters congratulating them on their birthday.

We should, except for a major milestone.

Somebody I know well.

Or a milestone birthday.

But somebody you know, it shouldn't be.

You should know them, at least know them a little to write them off.

You shouldn't write anybody you don't know, unless it's their 100th birthday or something like that, 75th wedding anniversary.

You've done so much work on this, I really should have.

I know.

I'd rather think that the color work on this is not at all wasted, because if I used to call

somewhere that was just about passed.

I'm not calling senators or congressmen anymore either.

It's only, let me say, if each day you get one, I wouldn't mind.

If there's somebody in this country that really ought to be called one each day, I wouldn't mind.

It isn't bad to name one a day.

You see what I mean?

Okay.

Don't, if there is one,

I write a note for a congressman who's done well.

Like Gurney, I wrote him a note.

I wrote one today.

And Marvel Cook.

And of course, Hughes got plenty.

But that sort of thing.

Maybe you see what I'm getting at.

And maybe there's a governor who said a good word.

Or maybe it's that kind of thing that I think could bring him.

And then, for example, when Fitzsimmons stated on the paper, it's very likely I should have called him and said, thank you very much, Fitz, for staying on.

Oh, yes, of course.

I know, but I... We're doing this, you know, this little one-liner.

We're doing a batch of those.

We pray four or five of those every day.

Don't you think they're good?

Oh, Jesus, they... You hear that?

One of us stir around here.

People say, my God, the President said... And they call and send notes back.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, well, that's a little awkward because some of them will catch up with you and say, sorry, you sent a plate by that one, right?

And whenever you see something where you know that I saw it, I will send a note.

And I want you to know how much I appreciated this.

And it means something.

See, the heads of offices are looking for these things, and when you've got a guy in the...

GSA or something who's done a good job on some big project just stayed out a long time.

I've learned that you've done such a fine job and I want to know how much I appreciate it.

I've heard of the outstanding job you did on the .

I even remember the vice president.

I got about five or six letters from .

I saved every goddamn line.

Sure.

Every line.

You know damn well that any of those people who get a letter from the president, they're going to save it.

It's a very big thing.

Why, I was really impressed with San Diego.

I liked it, just liked it.

If I didn't have an extra dinner, I would have given Rose two of the other names.

Call her in while she was here to see how long we have some names here.

Yeah.

Very good.

Matt Lovell, of course, should be invited.

I've heard about some tamales.

I'm going to have a can.

I want to check out my old friend.

Wear him on that one.

I think that would be a nice one.

You've got to have him sometime.

You know, he's got to, they sing songs, and it's safe, and it's carny middle America.

But anything's all right.

I think he's great.

I've always liked him.

Heisman I had in one spot, but the price of it, the price of fish all over it.

Did you ever do it?

But he gets a big crown when he puts on a show.

He's in with people.

Disagree with me?

Sure.

He did his dad on there at the Kennedy Center.

He did.

What?

Mrs. Eisen?

They act as if it's their whole place.

I think we have it now.

On what ground?

In confidence.

but he was going to get quite the vote.

Roger Stevens is afraid to, he set up a personnel committee for the trustee, and we lived in the personnel family.

I wanted to tell you that Don Bob,

You think he's going to speak with us through the election?

Boy, I'll tell you, he's a good friend.

Oh, his people are terrific, too.

And he can, and I think you'll be able to fuel him into lying, too, won't you?

No question.

I'm sorry that it takes so damn long to tell you something.

Oh, I love it.

Do you?

Well, look, I can't, I did it for another reason.

He knows that a breakfast takes an hour.

He had an hour and 15 minutes, and he'd go out and say the president, and when the studio came in, I said,

You know, and he knows.

Oh, he was very impressed with that.

When he got outside, he said, I'm sorry to leave.

He said, I know I talk too much.

And I said, no, Fitz, the president, I can tell.

He would have, if he had not wanted to listen, he would have, I would have been able to help.

He was very surprised.

Oh, he loved that.

He mentioned that going out.

He said, now, you just tell a person, he said, anything.

I can do the help in that area I want to do.

It's great.

He's a colorful guy.

He is.

I like him.

I hope we can keep in line with the building tracers.

I said I want to keep these unions.

I'm always talking about the tracers.

His fight about me is very interesting.

This is what he's figured out.

Of course, you have to remember with Fitz that he always looks for the most devious scheme explanations you've ever made.

But he said, Mimi, he stuck his neck out and backed Jackson and let everybody know he was backing Jackson.

And then he saw that Jackson couldn't make it.

Woodcock, meanwhile, in debt to Fitzsimmons, the tune of $25 million, knowing that Fitz is with us,

and Meany knowing that, and worried about Fitts' leverage over Woodcock, sees Woodcock getting out front endorsing Muskie, and recognizes that, Meany recognizes, that after the Democratic convention, if by any chance, Muskie should come out as the nominee, he, Meany, will not have the leverage with the Democratic, you know, with the White House.

Woodcock will be number one in labor.

Hence, he precipitates a crisis which Woodcock has no option but to join, and is now trying like hell to bring Woodcock into the Abingall CIO, so that it must be worded enough that it rains.

And Meany would control Woodcock, which would be the entree of Boston.

The other thing that's valid is that he said that Meany was, he called Robert Lewis, he said he was totally, what did he say, power.

What was it that he said?

Arbitrary.

Well, he was usually...

He cares about power.

He's a total dictator.

Oh, Christ.

and has no constituency.

Of course, what he told me on the telephone last week, which is the one thing that sends George Meany out of his mind, is he said, I'm not going to come to talk to you.

He said, you don't have any members.

The one thing that drives him crazy is that he has a constituency of 112 years of presence in the talk.

But Meany is so correct with these people, ordering them over.

I've been meeting him, I want you to come.

He says, I'm not coming.

I can imagine that was an explosive conversation.

But listen, check that Columbia country, Quentin.

Yes, sir.

I don't need the help.

I don't know anybody out there anymore.

We can try it, but we haven't won a country.

We can try it, but that's because Meany belongs to Columbia.

Does he want to belong to Columbia, or would he like to go to Burning Tree?

Well, that would one-up Meany, because Meany is in Columbia, but wants to get in Burning Tree and can't.

Fitz wants to get into Columbia just so he can be on the fire with me.

Oh, I want up on, I mean, Bernie, too.

I tried Bernie, too, but I don't know if they always can.

But Columbia, I don't know.

But we went over the whole list, I suppose, about a month ago, and there wasn't anybody that... We probably don't.

Columbia isn't much, isn't the place you...

But I belong there.

Yeah, but it is.

It's pretty sort of second level, isn't it?

No, he said to me going out, he said, he's been wanting to bring in Joe Tertullian from New York and Schlesing and Mullen and all those guys, Miller, and sit down and talk some hard politics with me.

And I just didn't have time, but he said going out, he said, I want to set this up in the next two weeks.

And he said, we're just going to line up the executive council.

And he said, we've already got the word out around the country, which is true.

George Bell and

went out to meet with all the Western Ohio business agents of all the unions, Eastern Ohio, under the auspices of our friend in Pittsburgh, Galtieri.

And he said, every team should do a man.

He stood up and said, well, I'm the next.

He said, that's unanimous.

Every team should operate in Ohio.

Fitz is a deadly serious fellow.

He says something, he sticks to it.

They could be a hell of a lot of help.

I was awfully happy he mentioned that, because that's what I was wondering.

I got some air, but I just thought we'd just let him know that we're on the right side of that.

Because he knows Harper went on national TV and endorsed you, in effect.

And that makes Fitz nervous.

He got very nervous after that issue was answered.

He called that meeting, that meeting was, he said that Belvedere didn't have the entree in the White House and all that we did with the Democrats.

Well, for Christ's sakes, we've done as much for George Meany as we should have considering the way he's kicked us around.

Well, more than we had any right to expect.

That's right.

And by God, that's why we want to do more for this ball.

Yeah, exactly.

By God, have him around more.

Well.

Have him to dinner.

Anything you want?

His, his...

I could tell the last time I...

I talked to him the day that it was announced that you were having breakfast with me, and I could just...

I could just read the tone of voice.

He didn't say anything.

Yeah, but you know the reason we did it.

Sure.

We were ordered to, as a matter of fact, come to work.

But I didn't want you to know that I was delighted to see him.

And I think he was, these labor guys are at least stimulating and interesting.

They're probably crooked as hell.

But I'm not raising any questions.

They're interesting.

These businessmen that come in are spineless, you know, smooth, soft hands, no strength, no character.

Drink too much?

Jesus Christ, I tell you, my respect for the average American businessman is piss poor old.

I swear.

That's like you, which is another thing.

Because personally, he thinks I'm basically a heart attack driver.

That's true.

It's a manliness that he feels that.

He knows, you know, he doesn't like an elitist, let's face it.

And he knows I'm no damn elitist.

And yet he knows that I know what this damn story is.

He has the most colorful book ever.

I noticed today it's very restraining view.

He didn't swear, but I've never heard of him.

I've never listened to it.

Well, every other word is...

That's the old son of a bitch.

I thought it was funny to call him Meathead.

In other words, it was the funniest thing.

I sat there with my mouth open.

I think George Shultz was even impressed.

Actually, he likes George Shultz.

Oh, yes, he does.

He loves to play golf with him, so they've got a good... That's one thing I will do.

I think that I will do this one day.

I'm just going to go out and play golf and screw that game.

I'll play the other hand, George Shultz.

Maybe that'll be the damnedest thing ever.

Maybe, hey...

If I play golf.

He'd love that.

No.

Because I have played with that player with me.

Yeah, he wouldn't want that.

He loves to play golf.

Well, you're not off yet, are you?

Oh, uh...

So then if somebody told me, uh...

Landers Group, and Julie, I didn't know she'd done this, was on there.

She apparently taped a show with Dinah Shore.

It was on at nine o'clock this morning.

She said it was very good.

Anybody see it?

I don't know.

She did Dinah Shore on 10 o'clock.

Well, she taped it while you were in China that night, because it was on this morning.

It was on today, yeah.

That's nine o'clock.

That's a good show to be on, because it's a lot of fun.

But, uh, why do you decide to go in?

I'm going to settle it tonight, and I have a concert, and I work at that place.

Colder and colder would be nice.

Good.

Hold up.

So I'm really serious about it.

I appreciate it, sir.

And, uh, you might enjoy this time of year, not too bad, sir.

I'll tell you a hell of a nice place to go if you play golf.

Yes, sir.

Well, it's still a nice place to go.

In the green brand.

Hmm?

You ever been there?

Yes, sir.

Well, our very good friend, Russell Truman Wright, is the manager there.

And if you'd like to go wander around there, another good place.

Now, at that time of year, it's beautiful.

Another place, of course, is down there at the Homestead.

The Homestead.

And the other one, the other one, you know, where they have all the George Washington costumes.

Williamsburg.

But it depends on what you want to do.

But I think there's probably some advantage to going to a place that is closer.

And you know what I mean.

Do you ever go back to New England?

I go up, I usually go up all the time.

My dad sent me to Jagger Isles when I was six or seven, but that's too damn close.

My parents live right outside of Boston and I have a lot of friends with places around.

I used to grab a great deal, but now I just haven't made it on the weekend.

All right.

But I'll take it.

We've got your, interestingly enough, George Children's is four-year-old-age-appropriate schools, or non-public schools.

Yeah, we're all set.

And the fact that you're moving along beautifully, I have a call when you come.

We're going to do it.

I want to do it Tuesday rather than Monday.

There's a reason.

the day before the Wisconsin crime.

And 50% of Catholics stayed at home.

See, Tuesday I can't go.

See, Tuesday I can't go because it won't hit.

We don't care about making big news out of it.

We want to hit the people that are there.

I'll try to spin out from them.

I'll try.

It'll make enough news.

It'll make news where it counts.

That's it.

That's the point.

But I think this is the time to do it.

We're going to go right up there in front of those educators and tell them.

And I'll go up and see that the sons of Italy.

Italy.

The sons of Italy.

Cardinal Carlson.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great son.

Well, I should do that.

He's a friend of mine.

Well, I'll be frank with you, they sensitively are.

You gotta go get your ashtrays back.

They always do.

One?

They still have one.

When we had the Suns in Italy, I mean, we were missing an ashtray after.

Well, that's, of course, Philadelphia is the city where there's been the most heat on aid for broken suits as well.

Cardinal Crowe, who's the head of the Council of Bishops, has been the leader in it.

That's the city.

We should at this instant, unheartedly, give some advance information.

Of course, you can actually go to the cardinal court.

Yeah.

Just call a few cardinals around this country and say the president is going to make this announcement.

We'll appreciate your support.

Yeah.

No, I agree with me.

They've got to step up to it.

Say a mass every day.

Well, Tuesday afternoon, the archdiocese press closes for the following Sunday.

Well, this will be it.

This will be it before...

this is just perfect because they they'll your previous statement my god that was the front page of every capitol newspaper the capitol shows to all the churches so for one week we have crushed the country for a few days the weekend over eastern the country

That's the funny thing.

If you're going to get a good dose of it, that's fine, which is fine, but somebody else is trying to do it.

So what I had is, look, Jack, Teddy had to be around some place, and I'd be off, and the rest, and the ITT would be forgotten the first few days.

There's nothing happening there.

It's very interesting to note how little congressional mail has been on that.

I read this Sunday night.

They're not getting all that damn excited about it again.

There's a problem.

We're not even.

We're getting none here.

Not even from, not even party workers.

They're not getting it from the Republican National Committee.

It will develop.

If you keep it going long enough, it will.

That's what Teddy's figuring.

Clinton's had his talk with Eastland, and Eastland said he's absolutely committed to a total turnoff.

He will not accept any compromise.

He does not agree with any subcommittee activity.

Total turnoff.

And it will be turned off.

And he says that Mansfield, he still believes he's got Mansfield.

The giant, I mean, the Grand Union food chains today, the president announced, they announced a freeze for the next month of all meat, poultry, Grand Union sewage.

That's one of the largest.

Yeah, it sure is, yeah.

But that's direct Brazil ESDF, and that kind of thing builds.

Yeah, start back the psychology of it.

That's right.

Look, the economy may be on the trade network, but it's going to go down anyway.

But you can start a psychology of what this is doing.

Right.

Did you see Julie on Coleridge?

No, I didn't.

A couple of times she's done.

Someone said it was very good.

That I played it.

That's what I was going to ask if you played it.

All right, okay.

You have nothing else, Bob?

No, that's it.

Some people told me she was just great, to be honest.