Nixon, Kissinger & Ziegler on Vietnam War and Paris Peace Talks

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Well, what I was going to say is that I want everybody to be aware that Peter didn't have at all this presentation and making this speech that he made later.

I don't think people realize they're guilty under some kind of escalation.

And the speech he made in there is making no national coverage.

Well, the thing I was going to say is the truth.

I'm talking about where I'm from and where I'm from.

They were concerned.

I raised the point about the fact that we let the Democrats last week have a field day after smocking our brains out.

And they had called and said that he thought it was because they had gotten an idea from you, which they thought also was immediate.

We were not to take any position at all.

Well, I think they misunderstood.

I mean, I think the point was that obviously we've always had to defend President and so forth.

But be that as it may, it's my total fault.

There's no loss.

There's at least two percent protection out there.

But now they must be savagely hit.

They must be savagely hit.

You know, now that they're out there... No question.

You see, the rhetoric now has escalated, Henry.

There's no...

There's no way to be avoided.

Now they must be savagely hit.

What we should avoid if we can, Mr. President, is an introduction of a lot of resolutions in the Senate.

For this reason, if there is a resolution that will come up for a vote in two to three weeks,

then Hanoi will have another excuse to wait to see how that resolution will come.

The point is that the resolution is something we cannot control because in fact they're likely to be driven off of it if they think that the resolution may put them in the view of being defeatists and appeasers.

Yet on the other hand they think they have a free shot at us.

See, I have this resolution, and I think it's almost inevitable that they're going to put one up.

And what we have to do is to filibuster, fight it, take it on, take it on.

And every now and then we... Actually, I don't think Mr. President... A musk has already got one.

I'm in favor of attacking anybody who's made a statement.

I don't think that they had a field day last week because I don't think they were saying much last week.

They didn't start yelling until we bombed Hanoi and Taipan.

And now, we have to get back.

They did.

It didn't get as much play, I think, as some of our people thought, as they look at the new center.

And so Muskie hit before the bombing, as well as afterwards.

And basically, because they're presidential candidates, they get more of a play than they otherwise would.

And query, has Scott Mansfield taken off now, or gone away?

Chinese statement is very mild, Mr. President.

Manfield made a statement saying this will prolong Du Bois, will make his task in China harder.

Just proves he doesn't know a goddamn thing.

His task in China.

You know, we've allowed, we've given him really the extra bit of rope here, as if he had any goddamn special task or mission.

He doesn't have a thing.

Mr. President, when I tell the Chinese ambassador tomorrow,

that I'm going to Moscow.

We are now playing this reverse.

They are not going to look for trouble with us.

Because that shows that we have a much... What we get out of the Moscow trip is pressure on Peking, pressure on Hanoi.

What they get out of the Moscow trip is pressure on Peking.

Right.

We all might get the pressure on Peking.

But as far as Mansfield is concerned, let me say that when he returns...

You see, what I think, Mr. President, is I now think that deal that I suggested to you this morning, I don't think the Russians could if they wanted to deliver a final settlement.

What I should do is pretend that that's what we want and retreat to an interim

We say, let's return to the status quo before the offensive.

They withdraw the three divisions that came across the DMZ.

We start the bombing.

They scale down their offensive actions in the south.

Russia guarantees this.

And talks, Litovko returns to Paris, and talks start.

Mr. President, if we deliver that, I think, first of all, we can murder our critics here.

I believe if talks start under those circumstances, Hanoi may negotiate seriously for this reason.

They've thrown their Sunday punch this year.

They were defeated on the ground and hit very hard in the North.

If they do it again next year, after you've been re-elected, they'll be even worse off.

I'd make one other suggestion.

We'll stop the bombing in the North.

provided they withdraw their three divisions across the PNC and return to POWs.

I think we've got to insist on that at this point.

I bet they won't do it.

Try it.

I'll certainly try it.

You understand.

Or at least they've got to send you to POWs.

Unless they want you to see you, then you can retreat there.

They've got to start some token on the POWs.

The second one, for example.

Right.

Doesn't that make sense?

That makes sense.

But let me say that I'm not...

But you see, then I would murder the Democrats.

If that is...

I would... Well, we can murder them, except you understand me.

They go into their convention.

We go into the campaign.

The war is still going on.

That's our problem.

You see, if only I would please get this thing out of the way.

That's why we may have to go the harder line.

The only way we can get this out of the way is to get the war over.

I think, Mr. President, if we go this route, and if we get the Russians involved getting it settled this far, we have a real chance of getting it settled well before the election, because then I do not see what Hanoi is going to wait for, what will be better for them next year.

It has to be tied in, then, with an announcement.

in june uh and it's there we've got to consider the may announcement as to whether or not that has to be true now i wonder if the may announcement i would not announce anything this week why not do it next week what's that mean next week

Oh, yes.

The main announcement.

For your press conference.

But the point is whether that main announcement should simply be a reduction of forces or whether at that point we want to use the draft detail.

I would not, Mr. President.

I agree.

To announce a reduction of forces in the middle of an offensive, it's such a show of confidence.

Besides, we have the Moscow thing next week, too.

Available.

You mean maybe?

You meant to give me the services?

Yeah.

What do you mean?

But we wouldn't service it if talks were going on, would we?

Why not?

If we said it was a ranch in Moscow.

Michael, I know that might be an idea.

Supposing you planned to go to the press conference with that.

That's what I mean.

You'd say.

Moscow and talks are going to result.

And then, boy, that would diverge those sons of bitches.

That's what I mean.

And then I could sort of, in a low-key way, also get a few thousand troops out of there.

Yeah.

I've reduced forces to, I've decided that every time it's 40,000, it's 50,000.

Much better.

So it looks like any other.

And that's a half a million, isn't it?

Exactly.

That's 500 short of half a million.

Yeah, that's right.

We reduced this to more than 50,000, so it's a good portion.

It's better if you...

Sounds like a good run.

Right.

Everybody can talk about half a million, 50,000.

When will you return all that?

My instinct is, Mr. President, that next week I am going to... You know, the Russians are tough.

I may not be able to get it done.

But we should try... You'll talk at the end of the day.

That's what it's about.

He's bringing the message.

No, he brought me the message.

The talk would have been just to show that we are tasked to say that we won't reply to this message.

No, he's going to reply to the message.

No, no, I'm going to reply to the message.

He will reply to the message.

We received the President's notice.

We understand that's the position you have to take.

I won't even say that.

Well, but you've got to understand that we're taking the position that we're going to take and the President is not.

We did like it one bit and he has no answer to this.

Good.

Is that okay?

If you'd like to debate, you'd better understand that.

And our talks throughout the summit, they're a separate matter.

A separate matter of Vietnam.

You know what I mean?

So that link, your talk of Vietnam with my state, too.

I think, I think we know what worries us all.

Oh, the blockade, or if the craft is, that's another thing they call the craft.

He said, have you discovered this open embassy about the blockade?

I said, I don't know if you know that.

There's a lot of talk around here.

But I didn't say there won't be any blockade.

He said, don't you think the blockade is easy to break?

I said, I don't think it's easy to break.

There are a lot of options out here.

OK.

It's interesting that UPI, sorry, has moved out of Moscow.

We just got it here.

But that source said that the president will have four days in Moscow to go to Leningrad, Kiev, and stay at the Kremlin Palace.

This is not .

They said a 20-man advance team was headed by .

I don't know what they got out of that.

And so, a source out of the criminal is, is a, and a, I'm not going to get a, you know, it's a movie now, which is, yeah, I think it's a lot of interest at least.

All right, good.

All right, I'll go see you later.

Yeah.

Bye.

Did these, uh, these writers, Daniel Byrne?

Yes, sir.

He was, of course, an old man.

He was on the movie, yeah.

Rogers has taken the line, if they do 12 divisions, the thing communists attack.

What is the difference now between the bombing of the North and the past?

The facts are that there are 12 divisions with equipment.

They need the oil.

They need the oil products for all these large and giant pieces of equipment.

He said, why don't you pay attention to it?

When the other side was lying, perpetrating the fraud of the world, why didn't you pay attention to it?

So he said, I hope he holds.

He's got to be on for how long?

Two hours?

Well, they're dragging him out now.

I hope they...

If there's some way to cut him off, he's made the point.

Did you get this?

Yes, I did.

She's flying on tomorrow.

Her point is that Ripley and people apparently have been invited to the thing.

The zoo says they're going to get healthy.

So I guess we can't re-change the Chinese ping pong games, does it?

I can check that out.

Let me check that out.

We don't need to check Bob.

What do you mean?

Well, I was going to find out who's flying.

Yes.

And if it is, we'll just have .

So that's what it is.

OK. Are they going to play something for me?

Do I have to watch them?

Yes, sir.

The Chinese couldn't have them do it, just ask them if they could do it the next morning because of my schedule.

I'll see if we can get that done.

Can we do that?

OK. And then she'll go off and do that Tuesday.

I think we can do that.

Ask them if they can shift their schedule.

Get on it right away, OK?

Fine.

Nixon, Kissinger & Ziegler on Vietnam War and Paris Peace Talks

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on April 17, 1972

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