Nixon & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Le Duc Tho

1:25:35Okay.
1:25:36If you want to put all this in, it's going to take a long time just going over that record and feeling active.
1:25:49Don't, there's any other way to go over it with this.
1:25:51Just hand it over and here's the record.
1:25:58High five.
1:25:59I think the stronger they get, the more quickly to the point.
1:26:02Okay.
1:26:06It's been a record of when you talk by his seat, et cetera, et cetera.
1:26:11It's not going to go down.
1:26:35On page seven is where you get to it.
1:26:37Yes.
1:26:41See, I have here, you said I have in my possession, I actually have a record.
1:26:47It is a shocking record.
1:26:49And then put in here.
1:26:50It's a shocking record.
1:26:51I said, since we don't have enough time.
1:26:53It's not a waste of time, but you know it.
1:27:35What I will do here, Mr. President, is where it says would be restored, I will put wherever it says would, must.
1:27:49Oh, this is the announcement.
1:27:54Now, this is still history.
1:28:12The U.S. in 72 is about to fall from France in 54.
1:28:23I said, I put there, I put the goal, and I say, the president is prepared to do what it's told me to do, whatever is necessary to stop this invasion.
1:28:33He will stop at nothing, I warn you.
1:28:35You say that, he will stop at nothing.
1:28:40And I can assure
1:28:44P.O.
1:29:12What are the effects of what you're telling us is on our city?
1:29:17They have to go back across the D.C.
1:29:19They have to go back across the D.C.
1:29:21They have to go back all over the city.
1:29:41They must release prisoners.
1:29:46We then will reduce some of the additional forces we brought into the area and stop bombing the north.
1:29:53That's the first step that we would consider progress.
1:30:01And the second is, we can say that we started covering our January 27th proposal.
1:30:10And, frankly, what we have to stay away from now is the idea of a withdrawal for prisoners in the ceasefire.
1:30:19That's what worries me, is that they're going to come up with our matrix.
1:30:22Do they accept our matrix?
1:30:24Yeah.
1:30:24Due to the spigot leaks, you mean that, sir?
1:30:29Yeah, and because it might be favorable to them.
1:30:33Well, you can say it.
1:30:39that's fine to go back to the lines.
1:30:45That's good.
1:30:45Provided they go back to the lines, yes.
1:30:47Yes, you go back to the lines or we take you immediately, but we're not going to take you now.
1:30:53You cannot be rewarded for your aggression.
1:30:57What I will do, Mr. President, is first I'll make this stuff open and say that we shouldn't say anything, except show covenant.
1:31:04Then I'll say now I want to hear what you have to say.
1:31:07If he gives me a long recital, and this is where it's, you're right, if I'm not presenting the whole thing, if he's going to start a long recital, I've done, I've already heard that.
1:31:18And I'll be brutal.
1:31:19I know you will.
1:31:26If I be as brief as possible, come to the talk, take a look on the final, and say, well, we can't go without a balance, but we're going
1:31:40I just want you to know that the president will stop at nothing.
1:31:46And I just leave that as damn clear.
1:31:49Because it's absolutely true.
1:31:50We're prepared to sink the whole ship of this thing.
1:31:54These people are not going to get away with this.
1:31:58I agree completely.
1:32:00I'll say it.
1:32:03Maybe it's not as pessimistic as it is.
1:32:07Well, the truth is, Mr. President, we've taken our head over the NFC record.
1:32:15You remember Laird sitting in there in February telling you you needed no reinforcements?
1:32:21The Vietnamization is succeeding.
1:32:23These guys can do it without American air power.
1:32:26And the Vietnamization was always a gamble.
1:32:35We knew it was a gamble, and if it holds, it will be because of the additional stuff you've got out there, because of the heavy tanks you've got out there.
1:32:44We are sending new heavy tanks now to replace them out of Japan and Okinawa.
1:32:49Are they using the present heavy tanks at all?
1:32:51Well, they're using them, but they don't have enough people trained.
1:32:56Even the ones we got out there?
1:32:57Well, not those they're using, but we've suffered enormous casualties of them.
1:33:00We had 60 to start with, and they're down to 21 now.
1:33:02They have lost 40 tanks?
1:33:03Yeah.
1:33:07mostly in military reasons.
1:33:13Why have they lost the sanctions?
1:33:17That artillery is just .
1:33:18That Russian artillery is just .
1:33:20Russians have always been good with artillery.
1:33:23Russians have always been good with artillery, these guys.
1:33:25I like these guys.
1:33:29Not French artillery, but the Russians have had massive artillery.
1:33:42Oh, it's another intelligence failure, too.
1:33:51I mean, when they shoot 1,400, about 4,400 into Quantree, about 1,400 into Amlok day after day, that's 150 tons of ammunition, 100 tons of ammunition a day.
1:34:04We had no idea.
1:34:05And that's just ammunition.
1:34:07You have to add food, and you have to add weapons.
1:34:12No.
1:34:14I thought of it last night.
1:34:16I opened my mind, read this thing, got us into these difficulties.
1:34:22Mistaken, for which I blame myself last year, we had sat on top of the Cambodians at Laotian Operation last year, the way they're sitting on top of this.
1:34:33We would have won.
1:34:35But basically, they wasted the Cambodian Operation tree set, nearly.
1:34:39That was a disaster.
1:34:41Yeah, because they just fooled around with that.
1:34:45They just didn't pick up the stockpile, I'd say.
1:34:50So that gave us this capability.
1:34:53Oh, yes.
1:34:54Oh, without a doubt.
1:34:55Well, in 1972, we didn't have an offensive action.
1:34:58And every year, we had an offensive action.
1:35:02There was no offensive.
1:35:10So, uh...
1:35:15They're not good on the offensive.
1:35:21They must be pretty good on the defensive.
1:35:26But we've been full-fledged about their capabilities.
1:35:29They're pretty good on the defense.
1:35:31They're useless on the offense.
1:35:34And do you remember when they were telling you the Vietnamese could have done Cambodia alone, how they wouldn't be five, they'd still be five miles from the border?
1:35:47But the other side must be hurting very fast.
1:35:50We can't berate ourselves too much.
1:35:52We've done more than almost the human spirit can bear as it is.
1:35:59But the point is, right now, if we're prepared enough, I want this goddamn military to come up with some ideas.
1:36:05I mean, I'm only going to do everything.
1:36:16No, I remember only too well that you came in and you pleaded with Abrams to come up with some new ideas.
1:36:31No, we've done superhuman things in keeping this thing alive.
1:36:43Right now, there would be a hell of a depression for the American people.
1:36:51If after this offensive began so late, it is like losing earlier.
1:36:57The South Vietnamese were defeated.
1:37:00We got run out of there.
1:37:02Now, by God, don't ever underestimate what's happening at any point.
1:37:06There would be a hell of a depression if we got run out of business.
1:37:09The American people don't want to lose.
1:37:11The American people got confused there for a year or two because we were trying to win and the opponents were shouting from the rooftops.
1:37:20That's what screwed them up.
1:37:23It's – I don't think the American people – I had dinner last night with a number of people, but Roland Evans and Tom Braden were there.
1:37:35Evans is hawkish as hell.
1:37:36He said the president has the power in North Carolina.
1:37:38He said we can't take this.
1:37:41Braden is beating around, but – He would.
1:37:44He would.
1:37:45You'd expect that.
1:37:46He's savage.
1:37:46Yeah.
1:37:48Not as much.
1:37:49Evidence, evidence is...
1:38:22I just want to be sure that pilots and stuff are well selected.
1:38:27I mean, I don't want to select them, but I just want to be sure that it's worth doing.
1:38:33I'll get myself a full briefing from Abrams.
1:38:35I think on almost any conceivable...
1:38:37I've got to say it through this time.
1:38:40All right, we'll get you a briefing.
1:38:43On almost any conceivable...
1:38:44I've got to see some options, too.
1:38:49Right.
1:38:53I want to see about the Dykes, too.
1:38:55The only point, I'll be careful about, Mr. President, is if you order them to use the B-52s and they'll do it, they're apt to get the Korov.
1:39:03If one of these clusters of B-52s hits a populated area, you're going to have 5,000 dead.
1:39:09My man, that could be...
1:39:15They'd have every camera crew in the world.
1:39:17They'd have a new atrocity.
1:39:20They'd beat your brain.
1:39:20I'm aware of that.
1:39:22That's why I asked the question.
1:39:26I know there's a difference.
1:39:28Yet that's the gamble we always trade.
1:39:29Well, within rational limits, we should take the gamble.
1:39:32But I think these...
1:39:35I think... We had the intelligence report last week that Haiphong had still not recovered from our last strike.
1:39:42I think this next weekend we have to lay a tremendous strike on them.
1:39:48and get as close to the pier as we can and burn out the rest of the P.O.L.
1:39:54This time we're going to lose some planes because there's some that did that.
1:39:58Why would you lose B-52s?
1:40:06Well, they found a loose one somewhere there.
1:40:09Oh, so we lose.
1:40:09Yeah.
1:40:10It's war.
1:40:15But we can't wait much longer.
1:40:16We can't wait longer than that.
1:40:18You know, the thing that concerns me about all this is Russians.
1:40:29This raises a great question about all that good texture crap over there in England.
1:40:33Doesn't it to you?
1:40:35Don't you think so, Mr. President?
1:40:36I think we get the shit kicked out of us in a conventional operation.
1:40:41We have to redo our military establishment as soon as the election is over.
1:40:47Because by 77, it won't be worth being president of this country anymore.
1:40:52You know, really, that's the thing.
1:40:55If he'd do it.
1:40:56In defense.
1:40:57If he would do it.
1:40:59That's what he ought to do.
1:41:05I don't know if he'd do it.
1:41:05He'd be superb as Secretary of Defense.
1:41:07He'd be outstanding.
1:41:29Well, I've looked at some of those pictures, and we are, you know, with TANWA and so forth, we are getting to them, but of course it takes a while.
1:41:44I mean, we've dropped the bridge, and now they're moving a lot of stuff through the Bunker Eye Pass, and they've been really shooting that up.
1:42:01It takes a hell of a long time.
1:42:08Do you remember when this offensive started in military region one, you and the AAC said we should wait until the weather clears.
1:42:13It's not as clear.
1:42:16Now the Carthaginians are not fighting, unfortunately.
1:42:19That's really the problem.
1:42:20They couldn't have fought much.
1:42:45They've got to keep their spirits up.
1:42:53The spirit is going to determine this thing in the final analysis.
1:42:58Even lousy, lousy armies that are still defending can survive.
1:43:09When you look at those boxes of B-52, if they were anywhere near the front lines, they just must inflict some enormous casualties on them.
1:43:27Because then, after they hit, it's obvious the nation would advance.
1:43:34That's war.
1:43:34They don't advance.
1:43:35After they stopped them, they should have moved up.
1:43:39And they had this great scheme of an offensive.
1:43:43And they showed us the plans.
1:43:45And if they had actually done it, they wouldn't have lost our power, to speak of quantity.
1:44:25I don't mind your telling the staff.
1:44:29I think we've got to call our own.
1:44:46We've lost now only one provincial capital.
1:44:47I think that's what we've got to say.
1:44:48And so forth and so on.
1:44:48But we still have to bear in mind, I can honestly say that this is a hell of a message supported by the most sophisticated weapons.
1:44:51And we're going to suffer some losses.
1:44:52But in the end, the enemy will not be allowed to succeed.
1:44:53Now, that's the line to take.
1:44:54Don't you agree?
1:44:54And tell them and say, sure, we're going to suffer losses.
1:45:15As I say, the only problem with pressurizing an enemy is not... ...is the effect on us, but it's the effect of his general positive power becoming discouraged.
1:45:32If night after night they get the impression that we're going to lose, see, on the other hand, we just keep going.
1:45:40It is difficult to blouse.
1:45:42We got that pounded in and pounded down, and we did lose, at least the polygon.
1:45:48Yeah, but because when it was all over, it looked as if we had lost.
1:45:52I don't think this was handled that way.
1:45:55It was by the end of May.
1:45:59We had lost only one more political capital, or two.
1:46:05Uh, I just want to get to three times, see if I can handle that.
1:49:13First of all, I don't even know what he had when he did it.
1:49:15I'm excited to find out.

Nixon & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Le Duc Tho

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on May 1, 1972

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