Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Vietnam War and North Vietnamese Offensive

1:49:30We shouldn't be bothering about such fucking comms.
1:49:32The reason he got the impression is he, I had, did he talk to him?
1:49:34No, I had marked up the mid-assembly.
1:49:36There's eight of these pilots in here.
1:49:37Yeah.
1:49:37And it's just Murray Carter.
1:49:38It's from all over.
1:49:39No, he said they were about seven.
1:49:40He said Murray Carter named another.
1:49:41I don't even know who they were, but I had marked them when I was flying through them.
1:49:44I said, wrap up mid-assembly.
1:49:45I had marked Kay on it, you know, because I was going to talk to him about it.
1:50:00They were on my desk.
1:50:01He came into my office.
1:50:03I had a meeting with a group of people in there.
1:50:07He reads everything that's on my desk.
1:50:09I try to keep everything turned over because he reads all my notes.
1:50:14He read this and went through it all and then walked out.
1:50:16We talked about some other things and then he walked out and I realized
1:50:21He was already in here, that he would come in here and raise it with you.
1:50:24And I told him, you had not seen this news summary, that I had no intention of raising these points with you.
1:50:29I told him that.
1:50:31I told him you had to afterwards.
1:50:32I said, I hope you didn't raise any of that stuff with the president, because I had marked those to talk to you about.
1:50:38Because not to accuse him of having said anything, but to raise the point with him that we have a problem with somebody trying to play a split between you and the president.
1:50:47And he said, well, I've already raised it with the president.
1:50:50I was very upset about this.
1:50:51And I said, well, I think maybe you've got reason to be upset, because there is a building thing here that we need to look at.
1:50:56But I had no intention of raising it with the president, had not raised it with him.
1:51:01We don't intend to.
1:51:02He said, well, I already did.
1:51:03I explained to him that I would never do something like that.
1:51:33that nature of thing.
1:51:34I would have never had the matter of fact just as well if you get people that you're very involved.
1:51:41And we're better off to keep thinking the strong than to keep thinking the weak.
1:51:47Oh, that, I agree.
1:51:48Oh, you see, I get it.
1:51:49See, that's the point that we got there.
1:51:51We don't really, we can't rewrite the story.
1:51:53His tone is different than your rhetoric and that sort of stuff.
1:51:56But you don't care as long as the beat isn't abrupt.
1:52:05I don't think he wants to be in a position that could handle anybody, and nobody else is.
1:52:07And that's part of what I was going over with Scali and Colson and Ron and all this is the thing that we've got to maintain the very hard posture and the tightness.
1:52:11And they detect no...
1:52:31withering anywhere.
1:52:33I just want to be sure.
1:52:35Henry did not intend to.
1:52:37He didn't really in his briefing do it, but I do think that the state is sort of trying to solve it.
1:52:44And also, maybe Linda Collins is trying to make this up, too.
1:52:48Sure.
1:52:48They want me to be there in the sense that he was talking about a different subject than you were.
1:52:52He was talking about the doctor and all that bullshit.
1:52:58But I think the last thing you want is to get any feeling that there's a weaving of resolve within the White House as to taking a tough approach.
1:53:07Yeah, I see your point very well.
1:53:13Abrams.
1:53:14Trying to get the local Abrams, I guess, for you today.
1:53:16No, he didn't do it.
1:53:19I don't think so.
1:53:21You see, he could also have gone crazy and probably lose his contract.
1:53:24I think those are the two he can't lose.
1:53:26So that's that.
1:53:27But for Christ's sakes, if Scali and that bunch can't get across, if I had stated that as well as anybody, and clearly, you know, I did not say we would lose the battles.
1:53:30But I said it.
1:53:31He said it.
1:53:31And I said it again last night.
1:53:31We're going to lose.
1:53:32It's going to be
1:53:51They're not going to be able to succeed.
1:53:52That's going to be our line, certainly.
1:53:53But what do you do with it?
1:53:53Yes, sir.
1:53:54They don't run with it.
1:53:54We have us run with it.
1:53:55I told Henry, he couldn't understand.
1:53:56No, I didn't want to.
1:53:56We can't bomb them.
1:53:57We can't bomb them, right?
1:53:58Well, I didn't see why.
1:53:58We've got a goddamn primary session Thursdays.
1:53:59Well, the lawyers got to walk out of that first.
1:54:18Well, that's not the bad news.
1:54:20Well, it takes, you can't set it up to, to say, see, because then you might agree with it.
1:54:25There's, there's already, or, got it all somewhere.
1:54:28You just want Bobby with the bomb, right?
1:54:34Let her know.
1:54:35He's pleased.
1:54:35He's ready to give up.
1:54:41To stop the bus?
1:54:41Yeah.
1:54:43Yeah.
1:54:43Yeah.
1:54:44Yeah.
1:54:45Yeah.
1:54:45Yeah.
1:54:46Yeah.
1:54:46Yeah.
1:54:47Yeah.
1:54:48Yeah.
1:54:48Yeah.
1:54:49Yeah.
1:54:49Yeah.
1:54:51Yeah.
1:54:51Yeah.
1:54:52Yeah.
1:54:52Yeah.
1:54:54Yeah.
1:54:54Yeah.
1:54:56Yeah.
1:54:59Yeah.
1:54:59Yeah.
1:55:00Yeah.
1:55:00Yeah.
1:55:01Yeah.
1:55:02Yeah.
1:55:03Yeah.
1:55:04Yeah.
1:55:04Yeah.
1:55:05Yeah.
1:55:06Yeah.
1:55:07Yeah.
1:55:10That piece, that shit is really something.
1:55:13That's it, isn't it?
1:55:14Yeah.
1:55:14Well, and if those are not pieces, I mean, I'm not saying anything's on the wrong side.
1:55:20You've got to hold it there if you decide to hold it for next week.
1:55:23Sounds okay.
1:55:24All right.
1:55:27Do you always feel that it's a good thing to have?
1:55:30Or not?
1:55:31Do they understand?
1:55:32Yes, they all do, certainly.
1:55:34We had to figure it out without putting a whole list of books in.
1:55:38That really works out okay, because it looks like it has some substance in it.
1:55:43It covers all the various demographics and all that kind of stuff.
1:55:47So it looks pretty good.
1:55:49And they leave it with the 7 out of 10 Americans approved, and it's a decision to continue on.
1:55:56That's a good thing.
1:55:57I agree with you.
1:55:57I think that's one area where he had no problem.
1:56:03Is that a letter from Krasnov?
1:56:07It's another one.
1:56:09Why is it this time?
1:56:13I didn't have one.
1:56:21Oh, it's thanking you for sending me, and as a result of these conversations, we have been taking into account all the other negotiations underway.
1:56:29It can be definitely said that quite a bit has been done to ensure the success of the meeting.
1:56:34Yeah.
1:56:36that matters to you, then he goes into Vietnam and he says, however, and I want to be frank here, too, both you and I cannot have 100% assurance that everything will go just the way it is desired that matters.
1:56:49As soon as the President realizes that at Vietnam, this question is, of course, not a simple one.
1:56:53As I already told Dr. Kirchner on the turn, that the developments in Vietnam will take very much notice, depend, irrespective of our visions.
1:57:02You are undoubtedly aware that a delegation headed by the Secretary of the Party's Central Committee visited Hanoi after Dr. Kirchner was in Moscow.
1:57:11In the talk with the DRV leader, the delegations touched upon the questions related to the political settlement in the advance.
1:57:19This indicates that it's something special.
1:57:21On the part of the DRV, their readiness to solve the problems by fair negotiations was, in principle, confirmed.
1:57:28At the same time, as all the previous military actions, strength discrimination of the Vietnamese to continue the struggle.
1:57:36Therefore, of decisive importance,
1:57:40Uh, and the rest is just garbage for, garbage for the way in which it's a treasury, not what it will do.
1:57:44Who do they say is going to do the trash and then leave work?
1:57:47Well, we're going to get there.
1:57:49We're going to find out.
1:57:51That's why this is a problem.
1:57:52That's how it's all going to be made.
1:57:54Exactly.
1:57:54There's not going to be any of this business of our little Jackie.
1:58:04Oh, on, on to what the president told me, they have to agree to everything.
1:58:10on the technical arrangements except the plane.
1:58:15They let you go on Saturday to Leningrad.
1:58:19They let you go on live on television, although they've never done that before.
1:58:23The only thing they ask if you go on live is to give them the text an hour in advance so that they interpret it and do a good job.
1:58:31Well, I'm just telling you what they have to do.
1:58:37And every other technical issue, I forget now what it was, I told him to get in touch with Church.
1:58:41All right, he told you about Church, yeah?
1:58:43Church is okay, so Church is good.
1:58:44Really?
1:58:44Yeah.
1:58:44Don't tell me about it.
1:58:45I don't want it.
1:58:49Now, that's one thing, on one scale, hearing those people and all thinking about it.
1:58:54If I want to go low-key, much the better way, I'll just go that day to Church, not with a great big hullabaloo, because after all, I am, I mean, that's what I do on Sunday.
1:59:13and all those years and all those really great times.
1:59:18So they gave you a favor plan, so all of that.
1:59:21But on the plane, they said the humiliation to them.
1:59:25I told Bob, I'm sorry.
1:59:27Let me ask you something else.
1:59:29So if I may call him tonight and say the plane is okay, then he will call.
1:59:35Then they will call Jason tomorrow and confirm it.
1:59:38Is the plane for Leningrad and Kiev?
1:59:41Leningrad and Kiev.
1:59:41But Kiev would not.
1:59:43That's what he mentioned to me.
1:59:48I don't really give a damn.
1:59:49It's perfectly all right.
1:59:51Go ahead.
1:59:52So then on the other one, it's done.
1:59:54I don't want to argue about the plane.
1:59:56This is a small thing compared to other things.
2:00:00I've ridden in planes many times before.
2:00:26But they may have no choice.
2:00:33All right, I'm fine.
2:00:34But you can't go to Moscow anyway if you've just been run out of Vietnam.
2:00:41Sure.
2:00:42So it's...
2:00:42The point is, if we run out of Vietnam, we will then blockade...
2:00:57This battle, it's taken four weeks to get them on tree.
2:01:02I don't think they're going to get them.
2:01:07Well, it doesn't say anything.
2:01:13I'll think along.
2:01:15Well, it's pretty good.
2:01:19His basic point is...
2:01:27The basic point is that these outing units are not cooperating among each other.
2:01:31That what's happening in the country was a command collapse.
2:01:36What does it say about the rest of the country?
2:01:39The military...
2:01:41I don't really give a damn.
2:01:42It's perfectly all right.
2:01:44Go ahead.
2:01:45So then, on the other one, it's done now.
2:01:46I don't want to argue about the plane.
2:01:48This is a small thing compared to other things.
2:01:51I've ridden airplanes many times before.
2:01:57If you get the...
2:02:01They don't want to cancel this song anymore.
2:02:19I think that's why, that's why the Anaheim song thing has just got to be
2:02:26But they may have no choice.
2:02:28All right, fine.
2:02:30But neither have each other.
2:02:31I'm sure we'll have to cancel ourselves.
2:02:34Well, you can't go to Moscow anyway if you've just been run out of Vietnam.
2:02:38Sure.
2:02:38So it's... Well, the point is that we run out of Vietnam.
2:02:42We will then blockade North Vietnam to get our prisoner specimens.
2:02:46We're not going to run on anything.
2:02:49That's further down the road.
2:02:50Hell, this battle, it's taken four weeks to get one tree.
2:02:54I don't think they're going to get one.
2:02:56We now have a neighbor who's just ruined it.
2:02:59Well, it doesn't say anything.
2:03:02I'll take the lockers.
2:03:05Well, it's pretty good, isn't it?
2:03:07His basic point... Is he discouraged?
2:03:10Is he giving up?
2:03:12His basic point is... His basic point is that these army units are not cooperating among each other.
2:03:25That what's happening in the country was a command for that.
2:03:27What does he say about the rest of the country?
2:03:31Military reasons.
2:03:32Does he get close to his final conclusion?
2:03:36You say they're going to make it or not make it.
2:03:37Does he still have confidence in his?
2:03:42No.
2:03:43All right.
2:03:47In summary of all that has happened here since 3rd March, I must report that as the pressure has mounted and the battle has become brutal, the senior leadership has begun to bend and in some cases to break in adversities to the truth and its will.
2:04:01Losing its will?
2:04:02Its will.
2:04:04And cannot...
2:04:05be depended on to take the measures necessary to stand in flight.
2:04:08The known exceptions to this now are General Pugh, 1st Division, and General Truong, 4th Commander.
2:04:15In light of this, there's no basis of confidence that the way you'll come to them will be held.
2:04:20And as for the bunker room, I will be not yet expressly above you.
2:04:23There's an audience of President Pugh for 800 side-down time, 2 May.
2:04:28I will report the above to President Pugh then.
2:04:32In light of the work going on, I recommend another 5 grams.
2:04:41then that would indicate that he thinks the whole incident collapsed.
2:04:45Well, you remember when I came back from... No, what do you mean?
2:04:49I think what is quite possible.
2:04:52What I thought then, I still think that there is a point will be reached where they will have lost so many of their units that the rest won't have any summit provided.
2:05:04And therefore...
2:05:06The issue may not be how many provincial capitals we lose, but whether that Godhead army will come about.
2:05:15That's the real thing.
2:05:18But on the other hand, we have to remember he's probably under the impact of the disease.
2:05:26U.S. Air Support, thank you very much.
2:05:42in the country as a matter of first priority, or over areas, requirements in areas outside the battle zone.
2:05:48Did you see that?
2:06:19On balance, I believe that the GBN and our leaders can spark the necessary will to fight against the computer.
2:06:29Now, if there is a contrapunt, it's maybe lost, but that's the way the talk began.
2:06:40I don't know how to say it.
2:06:41We can afford to lose, come to me.
2:06:42Where it's lost, too, then it's a real death by death.
2:06:48Because that would mean they would have lost one of their best civilians too.
2:06:52Number of refugees since 30 March more than 300,000.
2:07:09Since 30 March, enemy territory has been causing 140 village guards to come and operate.
2:07:18Either half of these or... MR1.
2:07:23Well...
2:07:24The service of the Ministry of Information, via the Media Information Service, seems to be effective in keeping the good of the people aware of the extent of the events.
2:07:35Indeed.
2:07:36I must report that this is a pressure on the balance of approval.
2:07:48Senior leadership would be much better, and in some cases, you're right, using my channel.
2:07:56Diversity is inclusive as well.
2:08:29Well, I certainly have something to say to her as well, but I'm not going to.
2:08:33But Pollyannish is going to be damn tough on you.
2:08:38I still would still make it.
2:08:38I don't know why.
2:08:41Because the other side must be very weak, too.
2:08:43But I think the...
2:08:44The Secretary of State says the Air Force is doing great.
2:08:47What in the name of Christ are they doing great about?
2:08:50Well, Mr. President, if the South Vietnamese are fighting as poorly as they seem to be in the Quang Tri area,
2:08:56then they don't have to concentrate enough to present a good target.
2:09:01And that's the problem.
2:09:22But then there is a lack of cooperation among senior commanders.
2:09:28This is an MR3.
2:09:29Well, you see, that's one of the most...
2:09:33When you get the daily briefings that I do...
2:09:35It's seriously delaying mission accomplishment.
2:09:37You see, you see the 25th division that's sitting about 10 miles away, and it's acting as a spectator to the operation.
2:09:46It isn't doing a goddamn thing.
2:09:49Uh-huh.
2:09:51How these guys in Ann Locke had held out is beyond my... You know, conversely, if the people at Quantree had thought the way the people in Ann Locke are finding, we could have punished the patricians out at the other side.
2:10:18This is the way the other side has planned the decision to attack, carry, and inherit, except that the forces of all may be extended to all.
2:10:25The enemy's campaign has been marked by detailed planning and preparation, but are, with reason or offensive, misquanticated.
2:10:37It is the end of the determination to carry this message.
2:10:40Mr. President, we went through that at large last year.
2:10:42These campaigns are being managed on a really effective, coordinated,
2:10:48MR3 is a significant decrease in the capability of the reserve.
2:10:53That would be to see my mom.
2:10:55MR4 would be to see the rest.
2:10:58The pressure and power tactics of the enemy will continue for several weeks.
2:11:13Move.
2:11:16He just doesn't know that.
2:11:17He doesn't know the supply situation.
2:11:19When does the goddamn weather circuit have to play a role?
2:11:21Not until July.
2:11:23Until July 1st.
2:11:24Well, in military region three, fairly soon.
2:11:28In military region two, first, middle of June.
2:11:32Early, early middle of June.
2:11:35In Hue, not at all until September.
2:11:48You see, this is a really very good report.
2:11:50He's being very honest.
2:11:54He talks about the will to fight for the world, the will to fight among senior leaders, and him and him are one.
2:11:59They're serious problems at the lower levels.
2:12:01Command and control is becoming increasingly difficult.
2:12:06That's where they have to sit, though.
2:12:08Command and control problems are very serious.
2:12:11This is before it was lost.
2:12:12Maybe not.
2:12:14It was lost.
2:12:14They lost it.
2:12:16It's my record.
2:12:18I was wrong this morning.
2:12:18MR2, the full display, will fight under the 27th Division.
2:12:22We're sure it makes the defense enough to recover.
2:12:26They are going to have a lot of oil in that lock.
2:12:30That's going to be very, very strong.
2:12:33We need to...
2:12:44The second major factor influencing Arkin's capability to turn back the offensive is damage to the end of the avenue.
2:12:51The extent of damage will not be known for several weeks or months once PW&I reports it for early success.
2:12:56There is no doubt that the end has been badly hurt primarily by U.S. Air Force.
2:13:01The extent of damage once at a time basis will remain one of the objectives.
2:13:12The Army has 190 battalions, lost 16, 16 are infected, an additional 27 are only partially busted.
2:13:20Well, that's not too bad.
2:13:24Well, that's 20% of our service, 25% of it.
2:13:26Well, you know, and... No, there may have been units that haven't even been in the battle yet.
2:13:42What do you mean?
2:13:42Where the hell are they sitting around?
2:13:44Well, they've got two divisions for each corps, and particularly in Military Region 3, that's the 25th Division that's sitting around paying in.
2:13:55It hasn't come over into antlark.
2:13:57The 21st Division hasn't really fought a very... What is the reason here that...
2:14:09You know, this business is about me and my having a Secretary of Defense request Abrams has got to stop.
2:14:15God damn it.
2:14:16Why isn't it?
2:14:17Because why doesn't it?
2:14:19That is not necessary, is it?
2:14:21No.
2:14:22I'd be glad if I could go directly to Abrams' business of having it come through Laird.
2:14:26I mean, I don't understand.
2:14:28The Laird was very good at the meeting today.
2:14:30Well, he was good today on this subject, yeah.
2:14:33But I don't understand.
2:14:34On the soul, he was.
2:14:39We had a great meeting on Seoul today.
2:14:42Yeah, we sure did.
2:14:46I thought you said General Lanz is a pretty good general.
2:14:49I never said that, Chief.
2:14:51He did.
2:14:54I have never been impressed by Lanz.
2:14:55He made a hash out of Laos last year.
2:15:00He may be fairly good on the defense, if you listen to me on that.
2:15:05When they had the north-west and east-south three weeks ago, they should have gone on the offensive.
2:15:20And they had a great plan.
2:15:23But if they moved 100 yards, it wasn't visible.
2:15:43According to Nate, they had fought very well at Westone.
2:15:59That's the first division.
2:16:01But until they gave it up, they're not there yet.
2:16:03No, no, the first division is fine.
2:16:07But now it's...
2:16:09If the militant group can't get reconstituted, that means the 1st Division has to defend an open-band area.
2:16:15Our main concern in the way area is that the main enemy forces previously engaged in the Clown Tree move south and attack the way.
2:16:50What's on our flight strike?
2:16:52B-52.
2:16:52What about Abrams' flight, though, that he's making here?
2:17:01That, uh...
2:17:06Taking assets?
2:17:07The battle down there, may it lose the war?
2:17:12Is he making it in those terms?
2:17:14No.
2:17:23I think that's a combination of psychological and military factors.
2:17:27On purely military grounds, he's probably right.
2:17:31But I think the shock effect that we produced, that the Hanoi has found, whatever the Jogis said, that it is a result of the Hanoi.
2:17:39Well, it also didn't have a good effect on Saigon.
2:17:43It had a good effect on Saigon and a bad effect on Hanoi.
2:17:46Saigon needs, she says, the will to fight is involved here.
2:17:49Maybe that will help them a little.
2:17:51I think we've got to give them a good shot.
2:17:56See, I think it's a good question.
2:17:57What is it going to be like, as I say, the Americans?
2:18:01We need to give them a pop.
2:18:04What we may consider is to split those two days.
2:18:08into not having consecutive events, say, one Friday night and the other Sunday night, so that he can go back to the battlefield for a day.
2:18:16All right.
2:18:18I think we ought to have that flexibility in there, depending on what the military situation is.
2:18:25One day and another day.
2:18:30Right.
2:18:30But I'll arrange a briefing for you on this.
2:18:37I wonder if we don't have to really go to the blockade.
2:18:41Not now, but I mean, if this thing collapses, what the hell else can you do?
2:18:58If this thing collapses, we have no choice except to go to the blockade, say, on the Christmas, and Michael come back, and then blockade.
2:19:08That would be the basis for our movement.
2:19:09Yeah.
2:19:10So we've got our prisoners back.
2:19:14But then we're defeated, aren't we?
2:19:17Yeah.
2:19:20Then we have to tighten our belt.
2:19:25Tighten our belt?
2:19:27Then we should make a goddamn soldier.
2:19:29Then we should make the Soviets pay for it.
2:19:31Yeah.
2:19:32That one should do it.
2:19:34Oh, yes.
2:19:35They made it possible.
2:19:37No, I said we wouldn't have any bargaining positions with the Soviets.
2:19:41No, no, pay for it.
2:19:43I don't think you could go to the summit then.
2:19:45Oh, sure, you could blockade and cancel the summit.
2:19:48That's what I mean.
2:19:49No, no, I mean pay for it.
2:19:53Just try getting past it.
2:19:56Well, you were starting to say something about the mail account.
2:20:00The mail account.
2:20:02The mail in front of the speech.
2:20:05is 1,800, 400, 500 again, 561, yes.
2:20:08Three of them.
2:20:13Four?
2:20:14Valuable, yeah.
2:20:16Max Aptley, who is an old liberal, and a largely enthusiastic, he sent you one, too.
2:20:23Did he?
2:20:23Yeah, he sent me a copy of it.
2:20:26And he said anything he can, he's going to give some money to you, can't pay.
2:20:31Ah.
2:20:35Well, we were started on that day, May 1, 1972, and this is the question of the day.
2:20:45I mean, everybody puts too much in terms of this immediate thing.
2:20:50It's about sort of a...
2:20:54I think the Avery report is an honest report.
2:21:00It's pretty goddamn sober.
2:21:02Do you agree?
2:21:04That's what's been worrying me for the last week to ten days.
2:21:09Lots of the capitals we can handle.
2:21:12If these units stay, stand and fight, we will finish, and the North Vietnamese will lose the war because there are too many capitals to live to take.
2:21:21You know, we could hold them for three weeks at each capital.
2:21:24What in the name of God do you think Bunker is saying to you about?
2:21:28I didn't quite hear what I was saying.
2:21:30Bunker always goes along with him when he sees you.
2:21:34Bunker requests an appointment for him.
2:21:38What would he be saying to you about what you've got?
2:21:40I think Athens will talk to him about his situation.
2:21:43What on the hell can she do about it?
2:21:46She was ordering him to stand and fight, and they don't stand and fight.
2:21:52Can't do a hell of a lot.
2:21:56But the other side is also weak enough.
2:22:01We got some reports that made that effect.
2:22:04Yes, and they have to be wicked, Mr. President.
2:22:06Even if we got no reports, it just cannot be true that when you put in, for example, they put in 38 B-52 strikes into this perimeter yesterday.
2:22:18That's like a 1,500-plane B-52 raid, World War II raid.
2:22:20On top of it, they put in 400, no,
2:22:31That's 320 tactical air.
2:22:32That's a third of the B-52.
2:22:33That's another 4,000 plane raid of World War II.
2:22:38Now, if they just close their eyes and drop the bombs within 10 miles of the front line, they've got to hit something.
2:22:45Are you going to make the point, though, because the Iraqis are fighting too well, they haven't been too scared?
2:22:53That's probably true, but...
2:22:56They've still got to hit something.
2:23:01This other side must have suffered very severe casualties.
2:23:06Aren't you glad we ordered out those extra people?
2:23:08Well, without them, we'd be dead.
2:23:11And the additional attack air.
2:23:13Yeah, that's got to be something.
2:23:15You know, these rears beat the whole goddamn Arab world in a few pounds.
2:23:20We got hundreds of them out there.
2:23:22That's all our behavior.
2:23:23We had 700 of them.
2:23:24You know, our performance has been poor, but...
2:23:31The other side must be running out of steam, and we keep forgetting that Dien Bien Phu, that he's doing essentially what he did at Dien Bien Phu, except on a large scale.
2:23:42At Dien Bien Phu, we now know that if the French had held on three more months, two more months, he would have collapsed.
2:23:50But he figures it doesn't make any difference how much you expend if you last a week longer than the enemy.
2:23:56You've won the war.
2:24:00They can't have nothing anymore that blows at them.
2:24:27And how long the meeting takes, I'll leave right after the meeting, any time from 7 to 10.
2:24:32Assuming I don't stay an extra day, but just...
2:24:37When are you going to announce it?
2:24:40At noon the next day, or at 10 the next day, I think the earlier the better.
2:24:46We had a really disgusting meeting on this.
2:24:52Goddamn, very salty.
2:24:54and the Board of Trustees.
2:24:55The situation was this, Mr. President.
2:25:04I wanted us, here we have a proposition from President, which in turn was an acceptance of your proposal
2:25:22So it wasn't just something, as Raja said, that President made up to screw us.
2:25:27It was our proposal.
2:25:29As Muda pointed out, these were, it was an effective adaptation of what we had given them.
2:25:37So I had asked Mr.
2:25:38Draft a general acceptance, but it began with that shit-ass phrase, which you picked up just as well as I did, which said, while we cannot agree with your considerations put to Henry Kissinger, we nevertheless can agree.
2:25:51accept the general approach.
2:25:52I handed that to Dabri and he said, look, if I send this to Moscow, they'll think you're turning it down.
2:25:59So I said, all right, take out that clause at the beginning and consider it simply as an oral comment that there are some parts of your memorandum we won't accept.
2:26:10And for the rest of it, leave it as it is.
2:26:16when you think of the meetings at which you had to help to defend the defense establishment against Smith for that facet, and Rogers to sit there and talk about defending equality for the United States when we couldn't build a submarine for the next five years if our life depended on it.
2:26:38See, the Russian force...
2:26:40It isn't.
2:26:41Under the Russian proposal, the Russians can build nine submarines a year now.
2:26:47That's their capacity.
2:26:48They now have 41, so if there's no freeze, they will have at least 86.
2:26:53By 1978, they had proposed to us that they'd start at 62, and that on top of that, they would trade in 209 of their old missiles, scrap those for the submarines.
2:27:09So if we turn down their proposal, we are in effect giving them 86 submarines instead of, we are gaining 24 submarines as a result of this proposal.
2:27:17For nothing, because we are not going to build any anyhow.
2:27:20Because we don't have to get that.
2:27:22You said Mora called Haig.
2:27:24Mora called Haig.
2:27:25He said he couldn't believe it.
2:27:26He said he thought he was in a nut house.
2:27:29He said that?
2:27:30Yes.
2:27:32Well, you heard Mora.
2:27:35You were in the ridiculous position that the Secretary of Defense, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, and Admiral Mora were pushing for it.
2:27:45And the Director of the Arms Control Agency and the Secretary of State were turning it down.
2:27:51And the Secretary of State, six weeks ago when we met, you remember, said, any freeze, under any condition,
2:27:57would be an improvement over an unchecked arm?
2:27:59No, well, also, he was the one that said, because he thought at that point, and his memory was against, which he was, and so was I, including SLVM, because it would be too much of a price to pay to get it.
2:28:15Uh...
2:28:16Rogers said, we've got to have SLBMs.
2:28:18And he kept coming back, we can't have it unless we have it.
2:28:21And I asked you later, I said, what the hell is he trying to do to our people?
2:28:24That's right.
2:28:25You remember I already said that?
2:28:26I know what he was up to.
2:28:28And Taylor probably doesn't know it himself, but you know, he just that way.
2:28:32And by God, we got it here today, and I'll see you some of it.
2:28:35But I think where I really, where I really creamed, at least to a man, and most of it, well, let's just clearly understand here.
2:28:43You know, I got the part of it where I said, uh,
2:28:46I said, I remember you called for four of the SOBs.
2:28:49Now, are you saying today, let's turn this down like we won't have?
2:28:54Let's not include SOBs?
2:28:57But Roger said yes.
2:28:58Huh.
2:28:59He said, let's exclude them.
2:29:02I'm making a deal with him.
2:29:04I've made a change in his position 183 years.
2:29:06How would you explain to Congress, and he says, how are you going to explain a disparity to Congress?
2:29:11Well, how is that like speaking to the arms controllers?
2:29:16All those shit-asses, for the wrong reasons, were violent.
2:29:20We have to include SOB.
2:29:21Of course.
2:29:22That bunch and all that.
2:29:25What the hell did Rogers mean?
2:29:26Rogers, you see, was so, frankly, pissed off at Henry's language.
2:29:30Right?
2:29:34Well, he was pissed off at the fact that Bredner gave what, you see, he couldn't pretend that
2:29:41It was obvious that what he had told you that weekend was baloney.
2:29:45He didn't even pretend that the SLBM thing came through Smith.
2:29:48So what he did with it is what he did.
2:29:51It's what he did with the Berlin Agreement.
2:29:54He pissed all over this one.
2:29:57That's what he did with the Berlin Agreement.
2:29:58He also found, remember he called you, he said, this will ruin us with McCloy and Clay, and he said he's protecting the president.
2:30:07Yeah.
2:30:10And what gets in to do this, what in the name of God does, because, so, I don't know.
2:30:18But I have no, Mr. President, I have no conceivable interest in this God-banned agreement.
2:30:23I mean, I have no interest in accepting that President's proposal.
2:30:28You have.
2:30:29You keep the argument on this.
2:30:31Here, I'm good.
2:30:42we may have to lose it anyway but anyway uh we'll know more when you get back tomorrow tomorrow they will certainly not make an acceptable trap but you're going to find out how they if they think they ever got the south vietnamese by the balls and you you know damn well they've got some heavily infiltrated if they think they've got enough balls they probably got getting
2:31:09everything from our, a lot of our Americans over there as well, then they'll just be tough as hell and tell us to go to hell.
2:31:16And that is why, that is why we'll have to bomb Hanoi, Hanoi.
2:31:20If they are taking that attitude, too, you've got to get right to the heart of it, right fast.
2:31:25If, on the other hand, they're taking the attitude of Jerry Griffin and my man were trying to buy time, get by, bomb any of them.
2:31:31Because we can't get to the heart of it.
2:31:33But I think we can get to the time as long as we bomb them.
2:31:38Oh, given the time, I meant they must not, they must not, by promising to discuss things, keep us involved.
2:31:46Exactly.
2:31:47Now, the other thing is, I think the only bombing that really seems to affect these sons of riches is the bombing of Anaheim.
2:31:53That's correct.
2:31:54And that's the only thing, the only thing, the thing I must warn you in all fairness is that it is very conceivable to me that the Russians will cancel the summit after your next bombing of Anaheim, I think.
2:32:07I'm still in favor of doing it.
2:32:09And then you will unleash, right now we are in the position, the reason we're doing not as badly in the treads as we might is because the pro-Soviet guys are utterly buffaloes by this, by the Moscow maneuver.
2:32:26And that will be then unleashed.
2:32:28I'm still strongly in favor of bombing Hanoi and Haifa.
2:32:33And really racking it up.
2:32:41They canceled it anyway.
2:32:42I hope we can get a little advance information so we can cancel it first.
2:32:46Is there any way we can?
2:32:48How will they cancel it?
2:32:50I can't say it under these conditions.
2:32:51How will they cancel it?
2:32:53I mean, is there any way we can... Yeah, we can buy it.
2:32:57I mean, you've got to keep it very close touch with the greeners so you can sense it.
2:33:03One word, I mean, if you ever, if you ever reach the subject of cancellation, just have Jigar go out and say the president has canceled the summit.
2:33:10Let those sons of bitches say that they did.
2:33:12Yeah.
2:33:12Do you see my point?
2:33:14Yeah.
2:33:15We're not going to let them cancel first if we can possibly help them.
2:33:19If they, you know, they might start a press campaign, and if they do, we can cancel it, and that would be a pretty good tip-off.
2:33:26And, uh...
2:33:37We may bring it all up, Mr. President.
2:33:43We've gone through every period before we've sat in this office.
2:33:46But this is rather, in a sense, because we represent, because all the chips are on the line.
2:33:52They weren't in Cambodia, and they weren't in Laos.
2:33:56But now, it's win-lose.
2:33:58And frankly, it's better in a way.
2:34:00It's better to get the war over.
2:34:01In Cambodia, we were winning the war over.
2:34:04In Cambodia, we were winning, and in Laos, we were losing.
2:34:09This time, it's got to be over now by summer.
2:34:11The war is going to be over.
2:34:14By July, August.
2:34:16It's going to be one way or the other now.
2:34:18I mean, clearly, the South Vietnamese can't keep this up for another three months.
2:34:26Well, that's the question.
2:34:29I doubt it.
2:34:29Oh, I don't think they can at all.
2:34:33On the work that they could've done, they can't have that much equipment in there, Henry.
2:34:46What was the catch this week?
2:34:48Two.
2:34:48Well, why a captain?
2:34:51What about that helicopter?
2:34:54They're counting it as missing.
2:34:59Better if they count this down.
2:35:01Two dead and 17 missing.
2:35:06Well, basically, you're right about that.
2:35:11But they're following the same procedures always.
2:35:13Well, basically, they're missing in action.
2:35:16The 17 are pilots that are P.O.W.s.
2:35:24Damn, damn, I wish there was, I wish there had been those sons of Richard's last week.
2:35:28Well, maybe not.
2:35:29That wouldn't have made any difference to this cycle, Mr. President.
2:35:32I thought the psychology of the stocks, I don't know, maybe they just haven't got it.
2:35:39No, they fought, though, for four weeks, and they must have been fighting.
2:35:41Well, I've been wondering, though, I've been worried, Mr. President, they seem to be able to fight for three or four weeks, and that seems to be the limit of their endurance.
2:35:50That's how it happened in Laos, and that seems to be happening again.
2:35:55They can take the heat for four weeks, and then they crack.
2:36:09But the North Vietnamese, I mean, if you read this account, they had the equivalent of two divisions of artillery in there.
2:36:18Well, I think you have a good day.
2:36:20See you later.
2:36:20I'll, uh, see you later.
2:36:22I'll get a message back from the client.
2:36:27Yeah.
2:36:28Uh, I walked through Rose to hear that.
2:36:30Thank you.
2:36:31If you have some, I have some on your wall.
2:37:07It'll take very long.
2:37:39You know, really though, I don't know.
2:38:05Bill was saying, oh, I was trying to picture we can't freeze in a...
2:38:10He was just nitpicking the Godhead thing.
2:38:12We can't freeze in an inferior position.
2:38:16Well, God damn it.
2:38:17Everybody knows we're going to have an inferior position in some way.
2:38:20No way.
2:38:21We can't.
2:38:22They're going to build it where we are.
2:38:23Where it's going to be less inferior.
2:38:26Well, the facts freeze in the inferior position no matter what you do.
2:38:29That's the point.
2:38:32So all you're doing is reducing your inferiority.
2:38:34Now, you're so goddamn mad, how would you ever know that?
2:38:59John's going to bring it up.
2:39:02Is that it?
2:39:02When he comes, I didn't ask him.
2:39:08He had it packaged.
2:39:10He said, no, don't give it to me.
2:39:15All right, how do we go over it?
2:39:22Thank you very much, sir.
2:39:36They may have some problems.
2:39:41They'll find out.

Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Vietnam War and North Vietnamese Offensive

AI Summary

Audio

Transcript (AI-generated)

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on May 1, 1972

Cite this conversation