Conversation 717-019

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Well, the thing I want to build here today, other than me to sit around and gasp about this, I think what they ought to do is really do some heavy thinking and then come in with a recommendation.

get influence, you know what I mean?

I may have ideas.

Now, the one thing that I do have strong ideas is about this damn criminal law.

I want it to be big.

I want it to be done that way, regardless of that.

Can that be arranged?

Yep.

I'm sure it can.

I have to, you see, that has to be decided very soon, right?

And not if we want to get the law enforcement people from all over the country, all the police chiefs, I don't know.

Remember, even if it's basically a criminal law, it's a television thing.

That may be a problem.

That's a great setting.

Yeah.

It doesn't look good enough to you.

Maybe it's just as well.

If you don't do it there, you have to do it in church, I think.

And if you do it in church, I don't... You sure as hell don't want to go to that Presbyterian church.

It's one of those where I believe that I am going to be able to do it myself.

And I draw.

I don't know the goddamn thing.

And I draw, and I don't know if I can do it right.

Rather than that.

It's a logical one for you to do the eulogy on.

He's unique, and his relationship with you goes so far back, right?

And he's basically a man of the present rather than a man of the future.

I wonder if they all could write that.

I don't think it's quite what we can.

It's a dish.

Christ would be the best one I knew when he taught those things.

What about the young guy?

There's a harder line than Christ.

Johnny Andrews, again, trying.

Him working, getting material that he can.

The canon style is overly, you know, there's too much stuff in it for me.

But I really think I ever did the eulogy for Hoover.

And maybe it ought to be out there.

The other thing,

If he really wanted to go to that, if we could see what that family graveyard is, maybe do it there.

He'd dominate that.

It should be Arlington.

Arlington is one of thousands.

Well, I think it's wrong with Arlington.

Yeah, yeah, it's just the Kennedys.

They still, like they do everything else in this place, they totally dominate the government.

Well, they do, but on the other hand, crash.

Outside could be a problem because you could get rain.

And it could be a problem from the television.

On the other hand, it isn't a crowd thing.

You can't get cheers.

The beauty of Arlington is great.

The ceremonial possibilities there are a hell of a lot better than in a church.

A church is impossible to cover in a ceremonial.

Maybe all the police chiefs of the country will come in their uniforms and do a guard of honor kind of thing.

And of course, you can have military pomp of any kind there.

You can do an airplane flyover, or the band of Tavis.

But you can't ask them to put the bell out.

Yeah.

Well, Henry got nothing out of them over there, he expected.

I expected it.

I'm not surprised.

I know he did, but I think he really thought he was going to get something.

He said they found something.

I thought I'd have a talk with Hague this afternoon.

He's quite an excellent professor.

They really did do nothing.

He said it was the most unproductive of all these.

The man in the older girl, too.

didn't even serve warm teas.

But the point is, Bob, we've got to realize that this whole business of negotiating with North Vietnam has never been right.

Now, I just can't help but just have to say that there's a straight out black conclusion.

Well, Al never thought he was going to get anything.

I didn't either.

Al told me before Henry left.

He said, this is probably a good exercise, but he's not going to put it out.

He's not going to put it out.

because it would raise hopes that things were going on.

We didn't want to raise any hopes.

You know, that's the lines, as I said, of the PR types around here.

Thank God, I talked to all about it, but I didn't take that line in Dallas.

Because, I mean, in San Antonio, because we had to take the hard line out.

We've got to do it.

It's all we can do.

We have to make a choice.

If you start indicating anything about ceasefire or coalition government or anything like that, we'll knock that down today, of course.

Because God Almighty, you realize what happens to your negotiating position, peace next, and all the rest of it.

It's going to be in their heart in many ways.

So we'll just keep cracking that.

Keep hitting it.

So you go ahead with your big ones now.

What the hell else do you do?

You've got to go up to a Republican public opinion.

You've got to do it personally as a means to keep their morale from dropping.

And you've got to do it in order to have some fire in position with the enemy.

And also, the thing that I agree with the rest of you, feel strongly about it, I think we'd better cancel the Russian summit.

This is the one that just breaks everybody's heart.

They just, what about post-con?

Yeah, then they'd cancel.

You could make it look like if you postpone indefinitely and just announce you will not go to the summit under these conditions.

Don't say I'm canceling.

Don't say I'll never go, but say under the present conditions I will not go.

And therefore I have canceled my plans for the May 22nd departure or whatever it is, May 20th departure.

And what becomes of the summit depends on what happens in other places.

Then if they come back and say we canceled the summit, you've still taken the initiative.

All right, yeah.

You see, all of this is very painful.

I know all of our people around here, it's terribly painful to Henry because he sees basically our World War IV, I think, in great jeopardy.

I mean, all of our schemes and this and that.

But on the other hand, we've got to look at what else you can do and what else do you do is to, you know, there's no whacking out there.

You have the Russians cancel the summit.

That's the worst of both worlds.

If you cancel the summit, you gain something from it.

If they cancel it, it hurts you.

If they cancel it, it looks like we have a piece of suffered a great blow because of our failures in Vietnam, present stutters and all that sort of thing.

If, on the other hand, SAIA will not go to the summit, so long as there is an aid, so long as we have massive events being supported by Soviet Union,

and Sean and all those other folks too.

Yeah.

Henry has a point that now there's something at this point.

And maybe he's right to a certain extent.

We keep the critics off balance as long as they think that we may be up to something in negotiating.

He may be right.

But that doesn't buy you public support.

I don't think so either.

Your general public support is still, of course the public wants peace.

That's one problem you've got to cancel on the summit.

Because they think that's a piece of, not just to be .

They want their mix.

They're all there.

They want peace on the one hand.

That's why postponing it, rather than canceling it,

put you in a better posture too.

And if they cancel it, it's they who destroyed the mental part of the peace thing.

But you've taken a strong position of saying, I won't sit down with them under the present conditions.

Well, the other side of that is what happens in the military side.

Well, I don't know.

I mean, it's unusual.

It's hairy, but not nearly as frightening.

It's impressive.

I mean, you get the whole thing.

I remember Alice.

Alice was a great businesswoman.

You see, the point of the military thing is this.

What the hell else do you do?

Get out.

Overthroat shoot.

Jesus Christ.

You can't do that.

We can.

He can.

Oh, yes.

If it's violent, you know, if he just runs out now, suppose he goes out to sign his honor.

Of course, the whole thing collapses.

Men are under great pressure.

No, we just hold tight and don't get hit.

You know what I mean?

Our people know they shouldn't be.

These are the way wars are.

They go up and down.

I think it's tough, but I think it's damn hard.

And you can't thank good for what it is good.

On the other hand,

I think that just adds up on all scores.

They don't negotiate how prices do.

How are you going to improve your negotiating position?

How are you going to get the

So we worked on it.

Well, it was my job.

But look, we had to face it.

And I can't just, his judgment's not been good on this.

His judgment's been correct on most things.

He thought, Bob, that he was gonna get something out of the Russians when he went over there.

You know that.

And he didn't get a drop, remember?

And I kept, that's why I sent those goddamn cables.

I knew he wasn't getting anything.

For Christ's sakes, don't give them what they want unless you get something we want.

Well, it was all right.

So, second wife.

He said, hey, I told Al this morning, I said, now aren't you glad I didn't make that salt in the house?

He said, I sure am.

Never wanted me to anyway.

Making the salt in the house.

Did Henry want you to make the mojito into this?

Oh, yes.

Mike was fine.

He finally agreed yesterday morning.

He's like, oh, yes.

He's on the ground.

Keep it away from Derrickson.

Also, yeah, I think he was very personally involved because he wants to be sure the White House gets the credit and so forth.

And my point is, Bob, I don't think there's a hell of a lot of credit in it.

I don't think people give a bunch of shit about Saul.

Do you?

Oh, it's a plus, but it isn't a...

It didn't get any play last night.

Ron calls it a walk-in.

Nobody's going to change their votes because of it.

If they click on the enemy, it's not going to... Ron over there.

No, the press would be a deal here.

That's it.

They're just trying to...

And also they're trying in other lines to build whether Henry is a peace maker.

If we get it, you see.

And the reason they're selecting Henry to be built now is that they have given up on Rogers.

They know that they can't build him.

They know that he's going to be retired.

They know that Henry's potent, so they're

That is why, I mean, and that's just the visible evidence that we need to understand this, that when, and he was, I mean, he was, he didn't, I must say to his credit, he didn't talk to the rest of his family, but the rest of them say, the purpose is not to help us, it's to screw us.

Right?

Absolutely.

I keep scaling, going the other line.

Are your other things going all right?

I see you're early going to play.

Later this afternoon, you'll be on the stands.

We've got all your attention.

The presidency, the enemy, I mean, taking after the press.

You can't get the beat to hit the president today.

He's at the governor's thing, but he wants to hit the secrecy thing.

understandably and rightfully is mad about the Pulitzer Prize winner in the New York Times.

Which, but there's no point in his going on and getting upset about it.

I mean, it just isn't going to do it all.

So they got him, and that's disgrace and typical.

What he needs to be doing is hitting the other attack on the press.

Rather than the secrecy thing.

Well,

I think you are right.

Falls in the hills.

Yeah.

There's still open ground.

We're going to have to, uh, Alice Keenan-McGrady started posting on, you know, some lines to you and stuff like that.

We've got to keep doing that because they, understandably, they're concerned as political animals about getting out in front and getting cut off.

Yeah.

Sure.

And, uh, and I still, I still don't know right now.

Well, I wouldn't have them trying to get out of the front line.

I think they ought to play the line, if I got to.

Particularly that, that's naturally another reason for the hand-right-hand home strike.

Yeah.

But you've got to have something positive to turn it on.

The worst thing you can do now is try to oversell.

It doesn't really accomplish anything anyway.

Well, that may be what I was...

I think we might talk about the attack on the press.

Well, it's interesting.

The critics have laid low.

There isn't really very much on that dub set.

Now, we've got the votes starting to come up.

Yeah.

And the Democratic caucus meets tomorrow.

And they'll probably vote.

Well, you understand that they do this.

Gives you a good scapegoat.

Yeah, we may not want to do it, but I mean, we're surely going to have it hanging out there.

The eulogy should be about a thousand words.

Four hundred words, not a bit over ten, so it isn't a bit over ten minutes.

At least I would get a lead tonight.

Water off of there.

Yep.

Oh, he died in the rain.

Goddamn.

He could have killed it.

He could lose it all.

He could have killed it.

Damn, he survived.

Actually, he would have been better off to have died a couple years ago.

And we would have been better off to have gotten him to the directory.

And we could have done it the other year as well.

Well, and thank God we didn't go on that ploy the last year of pushing him out.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It wouldn't have...

It wouldn't have worked.

Well, it would have worked if he had wanted to do it.

Right.

Maybe.

I thought, you know, we tried and he wanted to do it.

I see the stock market is kind of reacting, and I can call it a day.

I'm still worried about that.

I'm not concerned about that.

The general economic news still continues to be good.

That's great.

I don't know what the, we have the wholesale price index on Thursday.

And on Friday and stuff, we'll have another economic news.

What about the wholesale price index?

People are getting a little bit of justice for that.

Unless it soars, and I don't see how it can soar.

You can't really, unless the base goes way up again.

That's the only thing that hurts us is the implant of the base.

You see, I can't see those, I just can't see, it's just been hard for me to get this through that.

I just can't see myself being in Moscow.

I think I do.

Like, basically, I very totally do.

Why don't you just try to raise the other side of it?

I don't know how you argue the other side.

I don't see how you can argue...

for a 500-word, 500-sample rerun immediately.

You can do that tension.

What I'd like to do is to say in view of the continued communist vision, what shall it be or not?

supported by massive Soviet aid and military equipment.

Some, I'm not thinking how to word it, some, it has been, or,

Do you believe that the President should, as you know, the President is scheduled to go to the Soviet Union, or sign a meeting with the Soviet Union, or, you get that, but should he postpone his meeting with the Soviet leaders until after the offensive?

Unless the offensive is discontinued.

In other words, try to get it in the way.

Unless the defensive is discontinued.

There are some who say that unless the defensive can, unless the offensive is discontinued, the president should refuse, should cancel, don't say close the deal.

Don't give him several, don't give him 18 questions, and the remaining one, his visit to the Soviet Union.

Or should not go forward with his visit.

Should delay, should postpone his visit to the Soviet Union until the summit is... You're good at wording those things.

Will you try to get some wording out like that?

Let's just get a feeling of what kind of public opinion we're faced with on that scene.

I have a feeling myself that despite their great interest in having a summit, the people still don't want the president to go there when we're under a hell of an assault from Soviet guns and tanks.

You see my point?

Yep.

Now, if you just put it very simply, we managed to cancel his postponement

Meeting with the Soviet.

Cancel it until the...

Cancel it until the offensive...

Cancel it until the offensive is discontinued.

His son meeting with the Soviet leaders until the offensive in Vietnam is stopped.

Or do you believe he should go forward with his meeting with the Soviet leaders, regardless of the fact that even as the attack on Vietnam continues?

We're going to be in a position, my view, this is the second we leave on, we don't get there until the 22nd.

In other words, we've got three weeks.

We're going to be in a position then

The embassy will frankly run its course.

They will not have succeeded.

I still think that's the case.

When I say not have succeeded, they will have succeeded in the public mind in many ways.

As any person who knows a goddamn thing about the country knows, all that matters is Vietnam.

You did make your prologue, did you?

The follow-up to the Congress and so forth.

Yes, I sure did.

And with a lot of background.

I didn't see any public right on it.

We got it out yesterday.

I didn't have a public right.

The purpose of this is really to affect our own people's morale and so forth.

I'm sure we'd like to have some public right, but I don't think they're going to give it.

But every, Colson's group knows the importance of it.

Now, that is something that should be played.

You understand?

That's not polyamory.

Sure.

That's public opinion.

That's what .

That's right.

You see, putting out the polls, not taking the polyamory line, it says, should we kick these bastards enough?

That's right.

So that's a pretty good one.

Do you have something else there?

No.

This was just, I'd asked about the Arlington thing.

Well, I know.

Yeah, again, he doesn't qualify for our requirements.

Apparently, you'd have to make a waiver, but that's no problem at all.

The amphitheater there seats 4,500.

I thought it was a little dingy for us, but it's not at all.

So that's a very good benefit.

Nobody knows there's an amphitheater there, so it's kind of a...

And I guess it takes it a little unique way.

It's beautiful.

There's a big white box coming up.

It's all white marble.

And it's a hell of a nice place.

You have a Marine fan there and play appropriate music, you know.

It's fantastic.

All of them soldiers are going to have their goddamn rights.

If he had had any military service, he did.

He probably did.

He probably had been in World War I. I don't know.

Maybe John's.

I don't know.

He went to the peace conference with his uncle.

If you're a level two with prior military service, you automatically qualify.

Hoover is a level two, but without prior military service.

Right up there.

That doesn't matter.

You can do a presidential waiver.

Another advantage to Arlington is that you've got a crowd control situation where you don't have demonstrators screwing you up, which you might have at a church on the arrival and all that.

Demonstrators at Arlington would have to be outside the gates.

Because there are some in Idaho who are folk who, I can't imagine, well, yes, I can.

Those are the type who would want to desecrate it, you know.

I wouldn't get to that either with your hand on the right.

Sorry.

At least I think you agree that it was the right thing for me to go out and make that announcement rather than having Ron read it.

Absolutely.

I mean, our people don't understand that having client each other is not the way to go.

No, no.

The only question they have is whether you should announce that.

And they were concerned, because of the time delay and everything, that it would look like you had held a gun to make an announcement or something this way.

It just rolls through, because justice then handles them, which is normal in England.

When someone dies, the hospital or somebody else normally announces them.

I don't think you want to get into another area.

Which one?

It's a sort of a broad scale.

I don't think it's quite the American people who've always had problems.

Ray feels very strongly it's not the right time.

He's done it, but he says, I think we should wait a little bit longer.

He doesn't think we should do him at all now.

Not at all?

No.

He says, with the primary season and everything political, a quiet philosophical discussion would have worked last year.

It won't work now.

We'll see.

Maybe we'll be returning from Moscow at a good time.

Submit it to me now, OK?

I'm sure it isn't right right now.

That can't, it's not right to hurt this force.

That's why it isn't right, and it's not what it is.

I mean, I'm going to have to beat you up.

John probably wants me to go out and buy a dozen eggs at the supermarket or something today, but we're not going to have any trips right now.

You tell everybody that.

I mean, I don't think they're bad enough.

I'm going over there to the Naval Academy.

That is, that, that, that, the guy's, the argument about getting out of the Naval Academy goes really counter to rather than

No, I think he thinks you should.

But I think, but not because it meets the thing of getting out on the, what the hell do you think Texas was?

That was certainly getting out, wasn't it?

That was the orthodox people.

No, because he didn't count that.

He counts the focus on that was on the tiny ranch with 200 millionaires.

I like all of us, but we're so quiet about those factors.

There was a TV at the airport about it.

At least we were, but we are now.

And you took open questions in front of the press.

I mean, it is the thing where you were batting down on the White House, that's right.

Well, don't you think it's a good thing to do?

I think it's a very good thing to do, and I think John does, too.

But he and Colson both have a strong feeling that you need more, well, they make an argument that you don't want Vietnam always to be the headline story and only, you want that only to be associated with Vietnam.

And the way not to be is to be associated with something else.

They think in some way we do.

And, oh no, you can't, you aren't gonna stop that.

But their point is to get another headline up there too.

The Conde headline was good for that reason.

It ran another story.

J. Edgar Hoover will be another stormy student.

And that's the law enforcement.

And so then you get, their point is, a girl who thinks you ought to really move on unemployment, he's got it, and so does Chauvin.

Where you really do something about it?

Black rock.

Well, there isn't anything you can do.

That's the trouble.

That's where their whole fallacy falls apart.

Like he says, you should show concern with the food prices.

Which is just dandy.

Now, no, they argue that food prices are coming down.

Therefore, a visible identification of you with a food price probably isn't a good thing to do now, because then when the hamburger comes down next week, we go to the supermarket.

Jesus Christ.

Yeah, that's Chuck's idea.

And look at, have Marina Whitman take you to the supermarket.

That's his idea, because she's our lower-the-prices lady now.

So she says, look at this, and you say, my God, I found a hamburger that was 87 cents or whatever it is, and when I was in the

And then next month, hamburger will go down.

So then people will say, jeez, Henson brought hamburger prices down.

I just don't think the event's off the scene with this.

John's thing is he wants you to go to Buffalo or somewhere in a steel producing area.

go to an unemployment line and say, I'm terribly concerned.

We're getting unemployment down, but it's not down enough.

Talk to the guys in the unemployment line.

He does a briefing before and then talks about afterwards whether we're going to bring the unemployment down, on the theory that it's going down anyway, too.

Their point is, we're doing all we can do to get them down.

We aren't publicizing.

Personally identifying you, we're publicizing what we're doing, but it isn't personally identifying you with things.

That's the area.

Plus, avoiding any question of your hiding because of Vietnam, which I don't think we're getting any, I know we're not getting any play on yet, but I think they're concerned at some point in life.

Okay, thank you.