Nixon, Haig & Lukash on Vietnam War and Military Strategy

19:02He was a member of the Young Democrats.
19:03Young Democrats in Wisconsin.
19:10We're not balls to the Democrats.
19:11No, indeed.
19:11No, indeed.
19:12He's turned crazy to us.
19:15Yeah, he must be in there.
19:18I'm not... Well, we've glamorized this nonsense of these damn... You know, a guy like McCarthy go out there and tell those people to build their barricades and... Well, listen, Humphrey and my doctor have been saying horrible things about Wallace Externum.
19:33As a matter of fact, what the hell, they did just even worse to me, called him a murderer, and it's nothing of any...
19:43I don't think they're coming out.
19:45saying he would have used the boys, the muskies, 50,000 Vietnamese that had been killed in the order.
20:00Oh.
20:01What's the situation abroad?
20:02It's fine.
20:03Well, things are very, very quiet.
20:05They've continued operations east of, or west of Hue.
20:07Why isn't the press, I mean, the poster here says the crew will fly?
20:16They're very important.
20:23They killed 80 yesterday.
20:25Oh, absolutely.
20:30Got an ammunition dump in there in the Bastogne area.
20:34Did they?
20:35Yes, sir.
20:37No, they captured it.
20:38They discovered 10 tons of 82 millimeter.
20:42That's the stuff that would have been porting on Kill Lady, the enemy there.
20:49Good.
20:49I think they're doing exceptionally well.
20:53We had an aircraft team at Fire Support Base Nancy, which is just north of Bastogne.
21:01And they killed 30 enemy.
21:04Mortar positions were knocked down, bunkers.
21:07Military Region 2, they're still repelling these attacks.
21:12They got 74 tanks in the last 24 hours.
21:14Seven more.
21:15Seven more than 70 in a day.
21:18Yes, sir.
21:19Those tank counts are probably accurate or whatever.
21:22Well, sometimes they can double count.
21:25Yes, sir.
21:25Sometimes they can double count them, but one was...
21:28They're close.
21:29These new tows that they put in there about a week ago are really nothing these tanks have.
21:36They're both.
21:36They put some in the Cobra gunships and some on Jeeps.
21:40What do they do?
21:42It's a big guided...
21:45Guided rocket gun.
21:45What does it do?
21:46Just go right out of the tank?
21:49Yes, sir.
21:49It locks a big hole in them.
21:51And then they spew all the metal from the inside.
21:54Oh, I didn't forget.
21:57Oh, I didn't think so.
21:59Yes, sir.
22:00No, these guys are leaving the tanks.
22:02This is what they found in there.
22:04They're leaving the tank, then?
22:07Yes, sir.
22:07I mean, this is a pretty frightening business, isn't it?
22:10Well, if you don't fight them right, they're death traps.
22:12That's all they are.
22:14They have to be handled properly.
22:16The whole answer to them is to keep them masked and sudden movement.
22:26You have to keep infantry around them.
22:30How often is the situation there?
22:32It's not the third day.
22:33Oh, it's well into the fourth, sir, and the attacks have dropped off.
22:37Force from the staff is still moving towards it.
22:40They're going in and making fast progress, but they're continuing.
22:44They're about seven kilometers south of the perimeter.
22:52That looks very good.
22:52They got two tanks in there yesterday.
22:57The airstrikes are still about 1,000 level.
23:00Yes, sir.
23:01We're still keeping those airstrikes up.
23:03Great.
23:07I'm sure they had 1,000 yesterday.
23:12That 73 Arkwright's VNAF had 270, which is very high for them.
23:17And we had 627.
23:19Now, in North Vietnam, we didn't get around to noise because of the weather.
23:35Yeah.
23:36Yeah, what is the, uh, the bill this morning that, uh, for guard walls?
24:26Paralysis.
24:28That's after the test, right?
24:35I mean, yeah.
24:36As far as condition, he's on the plus side.
24:38He's expected to live, right?
24:39Yeah.
24:39He's not losing blood or anything like that, sir.
24:54But the possibility of paralysis is more than 50%, I would say.
25:06I see.
25:07But what is the recovery progress?
25:11No, no, no, no, no, no.
25:16How long before he can dispose at the very best?
25:19Is he going to be out one month, two months?
25:46In other words, does that mean that he just can't go out and campaign and that sort of thing?
25:51Yeah.
25:52See, that's the question that they'll all be asking around here.
25:56Not that we're going to quote your name, but I just want her to know for ourselves, our voice, just know what the hell's going on.
26:04It's bad.
26:04It's bad, man.
26:05Yeah.
26:05Yeah.
26:23All right.
26:24Would you talk to his wife and any of the Wallace family that are there today?
26:31And also, let it run out to the press there.
26:35I called at 8 o'clock this morning, too, as well as I did on that call at midnight last night, you can say, too.
26:42Because I didn't call you, but I called her when he talked to her.
26:49I don't know who you talked to last night.
26:50I called at 11 or 11.30 so that I called.
26:52You can say to the president.
26:56Yeah, tell them at 11 o'clock, press the callback sign.
26:59We've got a report in the call this morning.
27:01He's very pleased to hear that his condition is improving and that he's very much okay.
27:10Oh, how's it going?
27:17Yeah.
27:18Yeah?
27:19They all like it, don't they?
27:22Yeah.
27:23Yes, we're going to send him, you can tell him that he and Pena, I mean, the rush trip not coming off.
27:30They can take off Saturday morning for Key Biscayne next day.
27:33They're there two weeks.
27:35And then he could go out there and send his crutches and fish.
27:45Right.
27:46Yep.
27:46Well, yeah, there's one on the island.
27:49I mean, you've got the surgeon and then check for Bozo, you know, maybe your Bozo as to who the doctor is, if he needs one day to help him with anything.
27:59Because they're, they're, yeah, well, they're, they're good men down there and they all love him.
28:06And so, and we want him to have a nice vacation anyway.
28:08So you, you go ahead and call him this morning and figure, are you out helping?
28:13Where, is it out of his walls?
28:14Still at which hospital?
28:17Does he want to move to Bethesda, Michigan, or what?
28:28All right.
28:31Yeah.
28:33Yeah.
28:34Well, I'll tell you what to do.
28:36If you could do this, you'd tell Mr. Wallace this morning the president called and offered the president's suite at...
28:45But does he like to have it?
28:46See, I'm not going to use the damn thing.
28:49You understand?
28:50So would you do that?
28:52I think it would be a nice touch.
28:58Yeah, he's doing all right.
29:02Yeah.
29:13Yes, yes, follow me.
29:15You say I heard it.
29:16Fine, fine.
29:18But you be sure the walls know that I've walked through the presidential suite.
29:24And you can let it put out up there.
29:28Okay.
29:37What's happening here is it's just, it causes a, it could be a long re-grooming, but it may be for at least close to that.
29:45I think it's a little bit of both.
30:10You're right.
30:12You get my point.
30:12Yes, sir.
30:13I do.
30:13That's all I understand.
30:15It is a strong country, and they'll deal with you realistically.
30:21They figured, well, by God, I'm a kind of strong man.
30:27We didn't put him on a spot.
30:28We said, all right.
30:30The way we got that speech working was pretty subtle.
30:33Yes, sir.
30:34Our bowling people have been in the People's Republic.
30:36They just got back yesterday.
30:38They reported.
30:40They were there doing all during this thing.
30:42They reported being treated warmer than they could ever have conceived of.
30:48Now, this is just...
30:51I just think we've got these guys, I don't think we're... Well, basically they have to choose.
30:56They either have to start treating us with respect, or they have to start kicking us around if they kick us around.
31:03I think another thing, they're probably thinking, I am nuts, because our American press is probably the best amongst what you think.
31:11I mean, how do they start something?
31:13How do they start something with that?
31:15Don't you think that's true?
31:16I think it's true, but I don't think to them that is nuts.
31:19To them that's tough.
31:23Hell, that's the way they operate.
31:27They didn't, they didn't fool around in Czechoslovakia or any place else.
31:31I'm hungry.
31:32I'm hungry.
31:35No, I think they probably have been wondering.
31:37Of course, we had, we had, we couldn't have done this three years ago.
31:44The local TV last night said that they started
31:49an assessment of popular opinion.
31:50In the first days, the results were overwhelmingly in favor of the action.
31:53This is in the District of Washington of the Negroes.
31:56You mean here in the U.S.?
31:57Yes, in Washington, a local TV station.
32:00And you get it in this area.
32:01Oh, you saw the Harris Bowl.
32:06Yeah, sure.
32:06The bowls were all over.
32:07Two to one are better than some of the other ones.
32:17The main thing is it won't grow if the battle moves.
32:22Keep the heat on and keep them moving.
32:24The POW heroes got good play yesterday.
32:27The POW heroes got great play.
32:28Yeah, great.
32:29Tell me this.
32:30That Saratoga got some play.
32:32I told you.
32:37Well, they got the carrier one, the new carrier out this morning.
32:41It's on the news this morning.
32:43It's on the news.
32:43So we sent a new carrier.
32:45What is it?
32:46What's the name of it?
32:50It's a, it's an ASW carrier.
32:52But it was announced this morning.
32:55I bugged them last night and they got it out.
32:59The scribings have not been announced yet.
33:02We'll get those out as soon as possible.
33:04That's the thing is, everyone's been notified, the orders are out.
33:10It's going to have to get the men notified and ready to move before they go public on it.
33:21It causes family turmoil.
33:22But that's... Be sure to be sure we hit her on the north sometimes.
33:25In other words, we all want to let her say, hang on, we want to screw up inside.
33:29And so the rest of the time, we told them that...
33:33Well, they just shifted the Hanoi strikes last night over to the Bankeri Pass area, which is where a lot of the stuff has been coming through.
33:43Do you think they got some stuff over there?
33:45Yes, sir.
33:45They got PRL.
33:46They got trucks.
33:48They got freed missile sites.
33:51And the missile firing has dropped off.
33:56I think they're going to be on their knees very quickly.
34:00There is no other and no alternative now.
34:06Don't, you see, they are going to come, that, that, and we're going to be strong by ourselves if we breathe.
34:14Well, they came in publicly in Paris, and we're very strong.
34:16All right.
34:17For another, another exception.
34:19They had another exception.
34:21Don't take it, and I'll be free.
34:29Oh, I think that would be the worst thing you could do.
34:33I think the way we got this postured is just right.
34:36It keeps the soviets quiet.
34:38They don't get what they want in the plenary.
34:41Well, the plenary is just no soviet entry.
34:43We'll go over to Salisbury.
34:46And they probably won't be able to arrange it anyhow, but it's prevented us from having a print.
34:51We don't want to have any damn meeting before we go there.
34:54We've got to keep the heat on while we're in the soviets.
34:57Absolutely.
34:57We don't want any soviets here at this point.
35:01They wouldn't negotiate with us, and I thought they had us on the run.
35:04We aren't going to negotiate with them.
35:05We think we've got them on the run, or they may be hurting.
35:08Do you understand?
35:11It's just the other way around.
35:12We want to negotiate before.
35:14Now they want to negotiate, right?
35:16Screw them.
35:18That's the best thing that we can do is to take our time and keep coordinating them and destroy their troops and destroy their supplies and equipment.
35:28put their country in a position where it's going to take them some time to get them back in shape.
35:31I hope you get some power from this.
35:40You know, it's a foley with me because I want that son of a bitch, Tony Lewis, to have his lights cut off and can't use his electric rages with a few other people.
35:48Would you mind doing that for me?
35:49I hope you're looking at it.
35:51I've asked Henry about it every time.
35:52He comes in and lies to me and says, well, you get a woman down in Dong Hall in the sky
36:00The main one is right here.
36:01That's the problem.
36:03The chairman wanted to hit it two days ago.
36:09It's just a bad place to hit it.
36:11We'll hit it as soon as it's over.
36:15I don't know if we're going to knock that power plant out.
36:19We'll see.
36:26They had one north of the city.
36:29They did one at the port.
36:36And they also got their main control center for any aircraft for their whole air defense system.
36:43Boy, they just clambered it into an underground.
36:46It's like our Colorado Springs headquarters.
36:51Yes, sir.
36:51They got the photographs that they just clambered the hell out of it.
36:57Well, that's pretty decisive.
36:59It affects their ability to control the meds and missiles.
37:03Now, Donald, as I said, there should be no minor recession, not before we go to Moscow.
37:11They're bringing Porter back, so we'd be damn sure we have that guy under control.
37:14He's a pretty active cookie.
37:18And he likes to do that.
37:20He's coming back today, and we're going to tell him exactly how to play it between now and the time that summit's over.
37:27So that he better be ready to go out there and then just make statements.
37:29That's right.
37:30We don't want any ad libbing from us.
37:33Because we have made that proposition where they got accepted, you know, constantly.
37:39You know, the fact we gave them all the mail.
37:41We said, do something about you.
37:43I'm going to keep this.
37:44And they said, no.
37:44We can't bargain from that now.
37:46That's our last offer.
37:47Often not the first.
37:47People don't realize.
37:49You understand that at all?
37:50Sure.
37:50That's a last offer, not the first.
37:53Well, that's what we have to be careful of.
37:55We...
37:57We've talked about our POWs and that stuff stays in there.
38:00We've talked about a ceasefire.
38:03Guess we won't take our time right now implementing that.
38:08If they were to ask for it tomorrow, we would drag our feet a little bit.
38:14We'll do anything you want to tell me.
38:45Thank you.
39:49As you know, he put everything on the line on Monday.
39:54He got me an all-sign, a promotion.
39:55It won't work.
39:57I'll hear what you do.
39:59You and then I see me in the day.
40:06Good, sir.
40:07You heard Rodney.
40:07Larry's a good student.
40:09Lock yourself on for a little work.
40:11Well, I understand that sort of thing.
40:13I mean, everybody wants to protect his flags, but when you finally come down to it, nobody who really had to think it through faced the alternative.
40:23That is, maybe this won't work.
40:27But if we didn't do something, we were sure, or virtually sure, that what we were doing wouldn't work.
40:36Right?
40:37When you saw those snakes cawing, like, they were sending something to kill or retrieve the Indian.
40:45The Senate was out barking in their heels.
40:48And the Markham Assault Vietnam was going down.
40:50The snakes probably slept with them.
40:53I think it's the best thing that could have been done.
41:00No matter how you slice it, even if it didn't work, we were better off as a result of having done it.
41:17First of all, this is not a guerrilla war.
41:20This is a man-made war.
41:22It means oil.
41:24Second, there are several different things.
41:28We have cut off Cambodia completely.
41:31We have cut off supplies from sea in North Vietnam completely.
41:37And third, we are concentrating on the rail lines and on P.O.L.
41:42as we've never concentrated before.
41:44And it's a hell of a different thing for these people.
41:48I'm sure it'll work, yes, sir.
41:49You support it?
41:50It's going to work.
41:52You're going to be on the lead.
41:54Why is it we're not losing any people?
41:58No.
41:59So I don't want that kind of attitude.
42:04No.
42:04Well, if there's anything they can get up there, if we could put 18 B-52s, not in the air, on somewhere under 20 or 25.
42:16I think they broke out two, three attacks now in B-52.
42:22They are so critical.
42:23All right.
42:24But after that.
42:28We break the back here in the south, and I got a few of them up north on this.
42:34And there are places that they can be used in these truck parks that are out away, but he really needs them where they are, and I think they're doing the best thing they can do at the moment.
43:39It wouldn't have been done at all unless we had, I think, done all the things we've done.
43:43I mean, I don't think we've been perfect, but Cambodia, I know, was totally essential.
43:50Laos helped.
43:51Don't you agree?
43:51Yes, sir.
43:54It wasn't successful, totally, but it was half successful and helped.
43:57It helped.
44:03The other thing was, but this thing was critical.
44:08This had begun, and it has to be, it has to continue.
44:13And I'm just convinced that this is the right thing in every sense.
44:20It's right in terms of Hanoi and Peking, or Moscow and Peking is right in terms of Hanoi.
44:26did the right thing in South Vietnam.
44:27The L.M.R.L.
44:28has been resuming ever since.
44:29They've been attacking ever since.
44:30I could see from the discussions of Q that he's in an entirely different frame of mind.
44:36And of course, the frame of mind of the commander reflected the frame of mind of his subordinates, and Truman could not.
44:52And even today, Olan Dole, who's up to his ass in alligators,
44:56The man that the North Vietnamese pull out, he said, you're defeated now.
44:59U.S. actions.
44:59Oh, yeah.
45:02He was in trouble.
45:04Yeah, but I mean, the divisions that were whacking him are now whacking North and South.
45:16They are, but...
45:17He's got political problems.
45:19Oh, yeah, right.
45:21How about Laos?
45:23Laos is, the pressure's all off.
45:25They're pushing, pushing forward there, and the enemy's pulling out.
45:29They've pulled that one division out.
45:32The other one's pulled back.
45:35So they're very encouraged.
45:37No, I think, kind of quickly, just...
45:42I think they're going to be at their weakest position come the end of June.
45:45You think?
45:45I think so, too.
45:46I think it's going to come quicker.
45:48Well, I don't know.
45:49We always thought they thought we were over 200.
45:56I'm talking 44, and it didn't.
46:02But this is a different thing.
46:05These people do not have the resources, the Germans, right?
46:09The government has the resources.
46:12And by God, with the pressure we're putting on them, and with the Chinese and the Russians still talking to us, it's probably going to have a psychological effect, don't you think?
46:20I'm not so sure that they're going to ask the Soviets to help them negotiate out of this.
46:26You're not so sure what they are?
46:27I don't think that they might have to do that.
46:31Because they don't want to lose them when they're strong, but when they're weak, this is a different situation.
46:38Well, they want to build up equity for the future.
46:42They'll want to come back and fight again.
46:46They fight again, they'll find a different South Vietnam to the South Vietnamese can learn to fight.
46:52This battle, this thing is helping them to learn.
46:59They have to fight.
47:00They have to know they can do it.
47:01This is from the field.
47:03These people, Cambodia, were really raised here.
47:08That's right.
47:10But I think Laos hurts them.
47:11Laos, they, despite our attempts to say, well, they did well, they thought they had gotten their asses kicked off, didn't they?
47:20There's a few of these little things still on.
47:23They're going to think they didn't do it.
47:26And we are not eight feet tall.
47:29Like I know.
47:29In fact, they're performing very poorly in most of the area.
47:32Now incidentally, you say it's impossible to have any kind of a tank structure.
47:38Is that correct?
47:39Do you want us to have a close look at that?
47:44It is, in a massive sense, because the tanks are spread out on the islands and free-floor.
47:52Let's wait for... Did you read this?
47:55Yes, sir.
47:56Yes, sir.
47:57Yes, sir.
47:58Yes, sir.
47:58Yes, sir.
47:58Yes, sir.
48:19Battle of Ambury had a hell of a time.
48:22There's no way we can get Abrams to get all of his ass and pull his pants together.
48:31That is his fault.
48:32Why not put them all in one place?
48:38All right.
48:39All right.
48:39What work?
48:39Sir, I think we can, we can, we can get enough attention.
48:44I was over 100.
48:44100 small pants.
48:48Tell Abrams, send him over, send him over.
48:52Tell him he probably hasn't.
48:54Don't have a copy of Churchill 1618.
48:57I mean, the 1618 volume, too.
48:58And tell him, just turn to the appendage, tanks, and read it.
49:05He's read it all before.
49:07He must have forgotten mass, what tanks he's got.
49:12Don't have it spread all over the town.
49:16They're no use to anybody.
49:16They're just sort of nice little pigeons out there.
49:20But why not have a tank attack?
49:22They have tank attacks.
49:24Why don't we have one?
49:25Take the small ones, particularly when they have anything.
49:29You haven't ever tanked it, but you've got to put two or three hundred together.
49:33Well, David, you probably don't do it.
49:37You're stressed about it.
49:44But acting like a goddamn bureaucrat, huh?
49:49Okay, if you put that on the wire, act like you wasn't even the bastard, but act like a bureaucrat, you're just gonna be a genius.
49:58Just quit trying to kiss Larry's ass.
50:06That wasn't clear.
50:07That wasn't clear, though.

Nixon, Haig & Lukash on Vietnam War and Military Strategy

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Also recorded on May 16, 1972

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