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Conversation 800-005

TapeTape 800StartMonday, October 16, 1972 at 5:34 PMEndMonday, October 16, 1972 at 6:16 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob");  Staszak, Joseph J.;  White House operator;  Agnew, Spiro T. (Vice President)Recording deviceOval Office
AudioNARA Description

On October 16, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Joseph J. Staszak, White House operator, and Vice President Spiro T. Agnew met in the Oval Office of the White House from 5:34 pm to 6:16 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 800-005 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 800-5

Date: October 16, 1972
Time: 5:34 pm - 6:16 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with H.R. (“Bob”) Haldeman.

        Haldeman’s previous conversation with William P. Rogers

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2014-035. Segment exempt per Executive Order 13526, 3.3(b)(6) on 05/29/2019. Archivist:

                                       (rev. Nov-03)

MAS]
[National Security]
[800-005-w001]
[Duration: 1m 38s]

        ISRAEL

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[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 12/05/2022.
Segment cleared for release.]
[Personal Returnable]
[800-005-w002]
[Duration: 3m 12s]

        1972 election
            -Recent polls
                -October 14-15, 1972
                -Margin between the President and George S. McGovern
                -Minneapolis poll
                     -The President's previous telephone call to Martin S. Hayden
                     -Results
                          -The President’s support with Americans under 30
                -Other poll results
            -Campaign tactics
                -George S. McGovern
                     -Response by the President's surrogates
                          -Martin S. Hayden and Jack Webb
            -The President's October 16, 1972 telephone calls
                -John B. Connally's forthcoming broadcast
            -Telephone calls on broadcast
                -Clark Macgregor and Frederic V. Malek
                -Telephone calls to Democrats
            -Recent polls
                -Minnesota

                                      (rev. Nov-03)

                    -Union members’ support for the President

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       Polls
           -Vietnam War
               -Approval of the President's handling
               -George S. McGovern's televised proposals

                    -Compared with reaction to Administration actions
                       -May 8, 1972 announcement
                       -Busing announcement
                       -January 25, 1972 announcement of peace plan
                       -August 15, 1971 announcement on wages and prices

       Vietnam War
           -The President's recent meeting with the National League of Families of American
           Prisoners and Missing in Southeast Asia
               -Charles W. Colson
               -Public relations
                    -Similar events
                    -Washington Star headline and photograph
                        -Unknown woman [Nellie Davis?]
                        -Article
                             -The President’s pledge not to rely on the goodwill of North
                             Vietnamese to release prisoners of war [POW’s]
                             -Amnesty
                             -Possible network coverage
                             -The President’s impromptu remarks
                                  -Advantages compared to possible prepared remarks
           -Polling
               -McGovern’s plan for peace
                    -Henry A. Kissinger
                    -Bombing halt
                    -End of military and political support for South Vietnam
                    -Withdrawal of US forces
                    -Resolution of issues by Vietnamese alone
                    -Possible trip by the Vice President Spiro T. Agnew to Hanoi
                        -POW’s
                    -Amnesty for draft evaders
                        -The President’s statement

                                        (rev. Nov-03)

                              -Raymond K. Price, Jr.
                     -Corruption of Nguyen Van Thieu government
                     -Role of Thieu government in heroin trafficking
                         -US military personnel
                     -Re-election of the President
                         -Continuation of conflict
                     -Espionage and sabotage by the Committee to Re-Elect the President
                     [CRP]

The President talked with Joseph J. Staszak between 5:42 pm and 5:44 pm.

[Conversation No. 800-5A]

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[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 12/05/2022.
Segment cleared for release.]
[Personal Returnable]
[800-005-w003]
[Duration: 37s]

[See Conversation No. 031-079-w001]

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[End of telephone conversation]

        Telephone calls by President
            -Effect
                -Haldeman’s view
                -Unknown labor official

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[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 12/05/2022.
Segment cleared for release.]
[Personal Returnable]
[800-005-w004]

                                       (rev. Nov-03)

[Duration:   7m 9s]

        1972 election
            -Polls
                 -George S. McGovern’s position
                 -Gallup
            -State polls compared to national polls
                 -Stronger
                 -California
                 -Illinois
                 -Chicago Tribune
                 -Michigan
                 -California
            -George S. McGovern
                 -Patrick J. Buchanan's analysis
                 -Margin goal
                       -October 15, 1972
            -Poll results
                 -George H. Gallup
            -Richard M. Scammon
                 -Theory on poll results
                       -Shift
                           -Barry M. Goldwater's 1964 campaign
            -Polls
                 -Harris
                 -Gallup
                 -The President’s internal polling
                 -Consistency
                 -Albert E. Sindlinger
                 -George S. McGovern
                 -Daniel Yankelovich
                 -Consistency

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        Press briefing
            -Ronald L. Ziegler's responses [to questions concerning Dwight L. Chapin and
            Donald H. Segretti]
                 -Washington Star article

        Campaign practices

                                       (rev. Nov-03)

            -Effect of McGovern's charges
                -Public response
                     -Vietnam, welfare
                     -View of the President

        Vice President Spiro T. Agnew
            -Possible call from the President
                -Agnew’s schedule
            -Previous conversation with Haldeman
            -Washington Post story on campaign practices
                -Effect on public relations
                     -1968 campaign
                     -Possible backlash

        Press relations
            -Response by the administration to stories on campaign practices
                 -Colson
                      -Robert H. Finch, Herbert G. Klein
                 -Robert J. Dole
                 -Agnew
                 -Clark MacGregor
                 -John B. Connally
                      -Possible press conference
            -Press stories on Segretti’s activities
                 -National press
                 -Local press
                 -National press
                      -Washington Post story
            -The President’s instructions
                 -Life magazine
                 -Time magazine
                 -Hugh S. Sidey
                 -Theodore H. (“Teddy”) White
                      -1972 election

The President talked with the White House operator at an unknown time between 5:44 pm and
5:59 pm.

[Conversation No. 800-5B]

[See Conversation No. 31-80]

                                        (rev. Nov-03)

[End of telephone conversation]

        The President's telephone calls
            -White House switchboard
                -Operators

        Agnew
           -Schedule
               -Grand Rapids, Michigan
               -Green Bay, Wisconsin
               -Local taping
               -Alfred E. Smith dinner
               -Revenue sharing signing ceremony
               -Chicago
               -Pittsburgh

The President talked with Agnew between 5:59 pm and 6:08 pm.

[Conversation No. 800-5C]

[See Conversation No. 31-81]

[End of telephone conversation]

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[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 12/05/2022.
Segment cleared for release.]
[Personal Returnable]
[800-005-w005]
[Duration: 8m 7s]

        Spiro T. Agnew's schedule
            -Forthcoming Alfred E. Smith dinner
                 -The President's Los Angeles dinner

        1972 election
            -Editorial endorsements of the President
                -Letters
                     -Herbert G. Klein
                -The President's telephone calls

                                       (rev. Nov-03)

                     -Charles W. Colson's list
                         -William Randolph Hearst, Jr. and Martin S. Hayden
                     -Otis Chandler
            -The President's telephone calls
                -Editors
                -Democrats and labor leaders
                -Committee to Re-elect the President [CRP] chairs
                     -Letters or telegram
                -Headquarters
                -W. Clement Stone and John A. (“Jack”) Mulcahy
            -Television
                -George S. McGovern
                     -Ratings on question and answer broadcast
                               -Comparison with the President's broadcasts
                                    -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman’s opinion
                                    -Editing
                                    -TV Guide magazine
                                    -Herbert G. Klein
                                    -Live broadcasts
            -John B. Connally's forthcoming television broadcast
                -The President’s opinion
                -Enthusiasm
                     -Clark Macgregor, Leonard Garment, Raymond K. Price, Jr.

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The President and Haldeman left at 6:16 pm.
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Vietnam approval is up from our last one it was 54 it's 56 so it's
The interesting thing is, awareness of McGovern's plan to end the war in Vietnam on television was 62, which is pretty high.
It's part of the course, it's not super high, like your main aid was 80.
But then we passed our usual favorable, somewhat favorable, unfavorable, you know, question.
The very favorable was 12.
where your May 8th bike conversion was 34.
Yeah, that was not good.
Okay, take, take Park or our course, runs at about 25, very favorable.
Like the busing announcement was 25.
Vietnam, January 26th was, 25th was 29.
The economic announcement last August was 27.
23 somewhat favorable, for a total of 35 favorable at all, 20 somewhat unfavorable, and 38 very unfavorable, for a total of 58 unfavorable.
Did I lose the issue?
Sure.
I totally share your view on that thing this morning and I know it from having Dr. Coulson crack and he was the one apparently that was pressing him.
He and my other governor, who else was pressing him, said that he, you know, every environment was high risk.
But it was one of those things we should have done.
As I've heard, as it turned out, I mean, going over there.
As it turned out, yeah, but that is the way we should make that kind of decision.
But that's exactly my point.
I think that the thing that would concern me is again and again this campaign and the position we're now in.
We should not say, Jesus, we've got a terrible story going on today.
Send the president out, you know, to kiss a baby on the fat ass.
That's really what it is, yeah.
Although this one may have been a blessing in disguise.
That's the way to run this thing.
So we missed some good opportunities.
As it turned out, this was a good one.
And then kind of a star banner headlines it with a big picture of that woman giving you a hug with her POW bracelet on.
And a banner headline, Nixon says we won't, I thought that it leads with the, we won't leave our POWs up to the goodwill of the enemy.
And then the next point is amnesty.
They've got to have, yes sir, that's their second point.
Only the networks will pick up those two technologies.
I just keep across that they're both, I don't know, that's not great.
They might.
But you know, those were two good lines.
You know, it's an interesting thing.
If that had been prepared for me,
I'd have probably never made those points as well.
You know what I mean?
But by the time they'd gone through all the agony and heard something, well, it's one of those things that sometimes you can do a little bit better by thinking quickly and just learning about it.
On this thing, we took some of the McGovern-specific points, and this is kind of interesting to view what Andrew's up to now.
The things McGovern said he would do to bring an end to the war, do you agree or disagree?
Versus immediately stop the bombing and all other acts of force.
39-52, disagree.
And all military and political support to South Vietnam.
32-57, disagree.
Withdraw all American forces and all military equipment within 90 days.
30-62, disagree.
A lot of Vietnamese who work out their own internal political policies completely by themselves, 55-37 agree.
That's basically what we're doing.
That's right.
Send the vice president to hand, only 60-30 agree.
That's just because they
to those persons who left their country or went to jail to avoid the draft.
2762 disagree.
I know that my amnesty statement sounds shockingly true.
When Governors charge that the South Vietnamese government of two is corrupt and undemocratic, 4022 agree.
In charge of corrupt officials, South Vietnamese
The government is charged with re-election of President Nixon will mean four more years of war.
2264 disagree.
they commit espionage and sabotage more or less likely, 21% less likely, 69% no effect.
Sixty-nine.
Sixty-nine.
Twenty-one.
Sure, they are.
He's a great man.
Crow in Philadelphia is really a marvelous man.
I got to stick around here, and he does the work, but I'll tell him that I talked to you, because I know he makes a great deal of it.
All right.
You do it.
I like to see it.
Well, it is to you, but why is... No, I don't mean that I...
Yeah, they're very good.
I...
It's true, son.
And he will.
You don't realize what a thing it is to him.
I think we were right, didn't we?
Yeah.
And you gotta, uh...
He says, you banner the star, and the charge story is down here in the lower left-hand corner, and the zigger answer story was decided.
And it says that zigger, I forget how they phrase it, but they make the point that zigger hit back, attacked the critic, or attacked this thing.
They pushed him, and he refused to
You know, he had, he had to ride through the thing for a while, but I will not.
Good.
Sure.
Do it.
Anything I'll find.
Well, this is going to come up in a moment.
I'll find something.
Oh, sure.
Tomorrow or the next day.
I think basically they're going to get the dirtiest they can because they don't want to go to earlier.
They know that these things don't last long.
But look, people are thinking about Vietnam.
They're thinking about welfare.
They're not being concerned about the very Christian campaign.
I mean, they would have.
Got it.
But those are not lying.
And you've also got to be sure that he doesn't approve of such things.
They don't want the president involved in that.
You know what I mean?
That's the real truth.
So you keep him away from it.
He doesn't approve of it.
He doesn't lie about it.
Otherwise, they think about those over-intrusive campaign things.
One comment, I don't know what you want to make, but it might be a pretty good idea is to call the Vice President.
Just, how's it going, and hear good reports.
He's in now, on his way out, next day or two.
And I've talked to him today.
He's in great shape.
He has no complaints or problems or anything.
So you won't get any flak from him.
Why do you care about the flak?
No, what I mean is, there's no point calling if he's going to get into a big...
All right, but he thinks we're doing everything right.
He did ask.
He thinks that we're handling it right.
He thinks that they keep it up, that it will have some small eroding effect.
And he says, but I think that's inevitable.
If they don't have that, they're going to have something else that will anyway.
They said, based on my thing, when they put me on 68, it works you, it'll work it down at some point.
I'm not so sure, I'm not so sure how far you can elude the presidency, because there's a backlash thing in there.
There's a, the factor that, you know, we pick up in the conversation on some people don't like smear, they don't like the smear.
But on the other hand, you see, they're saying we're the dirty game.
We've got to say they're the dirty game.
That's what happens.
It's a really tough job.
You've got to try.
He says he just can't get anybody to say he can't get a famous client to take it on.
He's got to do it himself now.
He's got to do a hell of a job.
He's got to do it.
Why else?
Never.
Never.
Never.
We do have animals, but I didn't get any animals with us.
It's a good idea to cut it in half.
That's right.
And I think we've been right on our strategy on end-keeping, though, in that I'm not a person that's positive.
And of course, my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-
You understand that?
They're smart if they're not.
They are, and the national president will give this survey, I encourage you not to roll.
Oh, it must be a roll, roll, roll.
It's just got to be a roll, you know.
Well, you know it is locally, and it's getting more of a roll than you think, actually.
Look at it.
It's getting, the Washington Post devoted four pages to it today.
Could I take one of those?
I don't have national life in China.
It wasn't personal.
He's an asshole, and you have to find out how we all feel.
You have to find out about this and that.
Now, another of those guys that is now out there, because he's with my wife, would be a person called White, Teddy White.
I'll have to leave.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
He'd give them a bunch at a time.
We tried to get everything they did, but it's just harder when people get off.
Vice President's off to Grand Rapids and Green Bay.
He's doing some tapings here tomorrow.
Grand Rapids and Green Bay.
On Wednesday, the House sent dinner Thursday night.
I gave him your suggestions on how to approach that.
Anything that the Revenue Chair tried, he's going to preside over.
He's supposed to be in Chicago with their
I'm glad, I hope it didn't put you out too much to have to be there for revenue sharing, but I thought it was very important in doing the role that you play that you be there, and that'll be a really hell of a ceremony.
I know that.
Well, could you do that?
Sure.
Oh, we'll do that in the morning.
And then you can whip off an airplane and get to Chicago very soon.
But the time breaks.
An hour is a safe time.
That's right.
Well, where we were going to try it, I think we're going to have the reception and the pictures in that room, but the room only seats 200, or stands 200.
So what we're going to do is to have it, in the weather, as the forecast was good, right outside the building in front of the Liberty Bell.
So everybody will see that makes really better television in a sense.
Then we'll have the talking bay.
everybody there, you know, combined on picture taken in the world.
And that picture, of course, will go back and be searched by the mayors and governors and all the rest of us.
And, uh, the, uh, but, uh, I think, generally speaking, that, uh, we just ought to proceed on our own course and not let these people, uh, I mean, they're going to get 30 or 30 years, they go on.
The only thing I would do, I think we have to do is to say, all right, we're not going to talk about this, we're going to talk about the issues, which we've been doing, you know.
And I particularly think it's important to keep the foreign policy issue, foreign policy and defense off the front and center.
I know you have.
Oh, he's raised it now.
He's raised it now.
Oh, I think we just want to keep hammering on it.
What other issues do you find are the ones people are interested in?
Well, there's various different places about that.
Right.
Right.
Good.
Right.
Right.
Great.
Sure.
and they move the Democrats.
That's all you do there.
You just want to prove your progress there.
But I think on the domestic issues, I think welfare is a very big issue in the sense that basically they're against it.
Whatever it is.
But you see,
rather than talk so much about ours.
The main thing there is to say that he just, he had three plans, all of which had billions, billions of taxes and billions of the wealth of everyone else.
We're against them all.
That's right.
Right, right.
Sure.
You don't bother us, right?
Great, that's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I know you have.
The reports of the next one.
It's about life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was a man.
It was a fantastic success.
I went over and did the BWYs.
They were great.
They were great.
Yeah.
Well, I should have done it.
I should have done it.
Well, it gave me a chance to crack a weapon on that.
I never miss an opportunity.
I never miss an opportunity.
Incidentally, on the Alice Smith dinner, would you extend to the Cardinal my very best wishes?
And you can also tell him, I think we already told this privately, that I have asked you to tell him personally that the President has already put down in his book that if he survives the election, that he will come next year, a non-election year, and the President wants to come to the dinner.
And you've been authorized to make that commitment personally.
Again, I just say that to him in person.
One other thing on that that I, if you could work it into your schedule.
I've done it in here several times, and it means an awful lot to the cardinal if you could come and shake hands with the ID.
The reason is that's purely a fundraiser.
That's more than half Jewish now.
And it's expensive money, but they all interested in the money.
And the other, usually, people arrived and said, I need a good chicken.
It's the only one thing, generally speaking, I never believed in that, but it's one where you will meet the most important, frankly,
Except I think you can talk something about it.
It's already talked about in positive terms about
Sure, sure.
Great.
That's great.
That's good.
Just right.
Just right.
Just right.
Good.
Good.
Great.
Great.
Well, that'll do.
Okay.
Well, good luck and see you bright.
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