Nixon, Flanigan & Bull on Ambassadorships and Second term reorganization

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You see, he might have to drop in for five minutes.

I'm going to see what I can do.

I think I'm going to do that on a very personal basis.

are you personally interested in the kind of chairs that we select for the eastern room?

I don't think she has yet, but she's probably around by the time the first time she's down on the chair.

You know, with arms, which if we pick up something that we can use to succeed in capacity, but there's still a hell of a lot of nice stuff.

We've got to have them.

We have to have them.

And, uh, sure, we've got to have them.

I mean, it's not as bad as it sounds.

We've got to have them.

Well, I'll drop by and maybe I'll contact you too.

I'll see you.

I'll drop by.

Okay.

I'd like you to take a look.

all over and reading us hard on those to be goddamn sure that they're taken care of.

All right.

Now, let me tell you the problem.

I have to do that to him.

Let us know how it has.

I don't know what I'm going to do with him.

I just don't know.

I guess I'm just going to talk to him until later.

He hasn't asked, Mr. President.

At least he hasn't asked now.

He hasn't asked more.

He hasn't asked now.

The only way to set it is if I were asked, I'd be...

The second thing is, we probably are going to offer Jack Irwin Paris.

There's a reason for that.

We have to make a move out of there.

The second thing is, he's made a contribution, not related to the others, but it's enough.

But the third, he's a hell of a good man, and we need to grow there.

Particularly after the Watson thing.

I told him that Watson did exceedingly well.

He said, no, no, no.

I think he did very well, too.

And he did very well with us in the history operation.

But my point is, the public at the time said, well, here's a guy that included a lot of money over and started screwing things up and asking for something.

Mr. President, I have a different view of these things than I did the last time.

And maybe it's wrong.

I agree that they don't.

But my view is that these fellows can do a lot more than I, at least when I came down here, thought they could do.

I think Walter Annenberg is a great fellow, and I understand you haven't believed in him, but if we could find someone who could get under the hide of Barber and Heath, and we'll be, we're, in the next six months, we're going to be able to.

But a good, a good ambassador is going to help us.

Superb.

The ideal appointment.

But I don't mind.

I wouldn't get along with Shelby Davis or Walter Amherst.

Now, look, I really like your father.

I've heard of him.

He's a good guy.

Also, I love him.

Yeah.

All right.

That's the whole thing about the race.

I'll be all for the next two years.

That's long enough.

Now, if we get a hell of a good one, like you and I have spent, we'll keep it for two more years.

But you see, we got the audition in the end of two years.

They're all going to be told that it's a two-year fine.

But the more we can find people who, number one, are perceived to have your confidence, and number two, understand the problems we've got with yours.

Sorry, I was going to talk to you, but I wish you could call me one day and make a model of the list of everyone within my team.

We talked to you some days today.

Well, I'm surprised, because he's been in twice the same.

And, uh, maybe he wants to talk to you again about it.

Well, I wanted to call him and tell him that I called you earlier and said, what about these things, Maury?

You said you'd hurry it over.

I said, now, Maury or any others, because Maury is going to come in and see me next week, and I don't want him to come up on my blind side with people I don't know about and see.

How about you to study them all out?

We can ask them all in, all of these, at least, to talk about it.

I think we have to do that.

They have to at least think they can consider it.

Yeah.

But I agree with one or two people that when they don't want to be seen as OECD, you know, you're wrong.

As I told you, I don't think I've been thinking in my whole life.

We're going to move on.

Oh, fine, fine.

We need, we need oils and departments.

You got a heart attack.

Huh?

He got, he got a little.

A hundred out of one.

Well, you know, health would be great for two reasons, as you know.

Yes, sir.

He's done his best.

He said, he served everybody who was willing.

And he's not random.

He's his own.

That's right.

He's reading his heart.

His heart is my life.

And you're John.

That's all right.

But you go over these things.

You go over all these things.

And it's not acceptable.

I have told you some things.

I think he'd be just right.

I don't think he's quite as forceful as he might be.

He could talk to his guard this Saturday, believe me.

Yes, he does, and he's been taking more and more.

He does very well.

He's been taking more and more of an interest in it.

Good.

Oh, he's in the club.

He's got two gloves and he's got a deep glove on the floor.

He's got a big ear.

I don't know if he wants it.

I don't know how he'll do it, but we'll see.

You know, he's smart enough to do it well.

He's got a big ear.

He's got a big mouth.

But he's not ready.

And he knows that Garcia is a certain group of people that have bridles and back and forwards.

But my idea is, I want you to take the personal responsibility for ambassadors and bring them in.

I mean, you go over.

So when Omar comes in, with the school, with the panelists.

Now let me say it.

We're not ready to go.

We're not going to get Henry V. Jones out of previous counties.

They're going to be disgusted with him.

But Henry's judgment on this article is not good.

And then you were talking about the non-careers.

Well, the careers and the non-careers.

I have heard .

My problem is we have a hard time getting a good line on a non-career ambassador.

I mean on a career ambassador.

Where do you get it if you get it out of the people who are within your team?

And, well, in any event, I'll discuss it with them.

You understand.

though I want you to know we've discussed some of it, but the thing to do is just say, Henry, I was just reading this, I want to, before it gets into me, and I've also given orders to hold it on the handling, not to come off on my mind side after you have made your recommendations, as he often does, and says, now, can't we do this or that, or this, or I'll do it, because that's what a lot of the

there are at least some specifications that are handled by you sent in on the recommendation after Henry comes in, and all of a sudden, without knowledge, you know, that you had not handled anything yet, we still haven't.

That's not going to happen this time.

You're in charge.

In other words, you and Henry, and if Henry has any differences in actual laws, you must bring them, come in and discuss them in my presence with you.

But this time we've got to do the right thing with these ambassadors and put a good end to them all and their other things, I mean, their remains, their...

I think that's what we have to do.

If we find a fellow who's just given us a lot of money that really doesn't understand what we're trying to do with Europe and only wants to go to Europe, I think we have to do something else.

Okay, here it is.

or an appointment, or may be disappointed.

Mr. President, if we don't work on these fellows in Europe and allow them all to go towards the European community and none of them towards us, we don't use the traditional feeling that, for instance, the Belgians and the Dutch have for us against the French side.

I think we're going to miss an opportunity.

And they can do it, because they're there every day.

And if they're any good, they can talk to the finance minister and the trade minister and occasionally the prime minister enough so they can influence their thinking.

They are basically a cohesive team with a great running back and a superb field job.

But he just had a clever brain and of course a great coach.

The other thing is that their weakness really is against the Pats.

They've been very well against each other every time.

Against the Pats, they're weak.

But now that they come up with that clutching leg, it's amazing, it's amazing.

They have a little seed team, the Giants.

They certainly needed to play last week, it was 15-99.

A young team from Atlanta.

Atlanta, on another day, would be the Atlantic Young.

They just got the tour de classe.

And that's the problem.

The problem is, I think they can't hold it down for anybody.

But it's amazing that this album is done.

Anybody else believe me that had that team?

Big team.

500.

Okay.

15-year veterans.

You know that Irwin is Dick Watson's brother-in-law?

He was married to Watson's sister, isn't that right?

He was married to Watson's sister.

He was his wife's dad.

His wife's dad.

She was Watson's sister.

I don't think we are.

Yeah, I don't think it's...

I don't think we're going to applaud Jack Earle for anything.

He's a very nice guy.

He just isn't tough enough.

He is a wonderful guy.

You're right about that.

But he'd do better in Paris than some other guy.

Because he knows the game.

Absolutely.

A couple other questions.

What do you want to do about Graham Martin in Italy?

He's been here for years.

He's been there for three years.

At his age?

Yes.

He's a fine fellow, but he's over 60.

I don't understand.

I don't think he's over 65, but I'll find out.

You know what he'd really like to do?

He'd like to come back here.

He originally urged that the Foreign Service be moved out of the State Department, be an independent unit.

He wrote the original paper on that.

But I don't know what he's talking about.

You mean that he isn't perfect?

Well, you're making a consideration.

Good.

Do you agree with that or not?

He's the jury's man, sir.

You're from the town's department.

You're a guy, aren't you?

Well, if we get somebody that's got a bunch of good people, let me put it this way.

A career foreign service person is not going to show that he's not a man.

They haven't been, that's true.

But they're always a little man on the hook.

But they're not a little man, but they aren't educated that way.

They're very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

But we know that we can get it to the Congress of Texas.

I just ordered it.

That's like a non-career.

Some young fellow out of business who really wants to travel.

I'm speaking of taking him out of the department.

My man, to take a non-career guy out of business.

Some guy's out of business.

And I can't do something like that.

Yes, as an economic man, but not have him under the State Department.

Or you could put him under Casey.

You could put him under Casey for you.

You could go this other direction, and we're studying it now, which is to make the farm service a career service that services state, commerce, treasury, and agriculture.

And make it truly a career service that is not responsible to the department of the class.

No, I don't believe so.

I mean, he takes an executive order, but by executive order, it's something that we don't agree with.

What about the... We owe him nothing.

Nothing.

We did very good.

We brought him in and gave him a hell of a push.

What about him?

Do you remember we sent a... A killer brain.

To Germany.

And the deal was a year.

And he's pretty good, I think.

He is good.

And Germany is perfect.

But, there again, if we got a hell of a job here in Germany like Dan Rush, I would anticipate the change.

We don't want that.

We've got to be...

And the same thing with regard to Spain, where we sent Colonel Rivera with the understanding it would be for no more than a year.

Yes, but he was, the Department was told, the Defense Department, Laird was told to tell him it was for no more than a year.

I'm sure he does.

And it will leave for a while.

That's one thing that you should be free to do.

You, for example, should let go of Grant's pay a year and say, all right, you've got a good job.

You'd like me to stay through the European Security Conference.

I think you'd better do that.

You'd let the girls stay, or you don't choose them.

But you could tell the new guys that we want for those two blocks.

You could say, you've got to get one here.

Right.

They don't have a job, by the way.

Right.

How about John?

How about him?

What do you think?

Oh, I'm most assured we do.

I like this person.

His age is over 65.

His age is not a terribly serious division.

Yes.

Oh, my Lord, he's over 65.

I think we're going to have to rule.

I hope that this doesn't knock on somebody's heart.

He said the empty candidates were Franks.

He said, yes, Jeff Collins was the ambassador to Ireland.

Oh, my God.

Frank, yes.

Yeah. 67.

I don't know, Mr. President, I don't know.

the kind of guy we want to send over there to represent the users in this country.

He's not energetic in that sense.

That's correct.

Incidentally, that post needs the smartest

And I think it's relevant.

Oh, yeah.

He's a nice guy.

He's done a good technical job.

But with Trudeau and this fellow Turner, who's clearly a leader in that category.

We don't.

They didn't give much money and we can grab the Smith.

They didn't?

No.

Well, he should be on the phone.

Well, they did give money.

I won't say it.

See, he's on the phone.

But he's a, I believe he's the Pittsburgh now.

I think he got, we got the money from the phone.

In any event, Maury says we have no further obligation.

All right.

But that's where we could use them.

I'd take six months at the end of the school year, whatever the hell it is.

See, I wouldn't quite as fast.

So that they have time for all the rest.

It doesn't say anything.

So let's be that way on many of these.

Well, you've got a nice spine, but you've got them all over.

Most of them look into this business.

economic men, you know, we've got economic men in.

We've got to get economic men in on anything, and we'll see if we're all right.

Yes, sir.

If we're all right, then he's prepared to vote me on unless the guy is bulking or not showing.

He's a wonderful, warm candidate for the campaign like a son of a bitch.

Oh, yeah.

But he must leave.

You know what I mean?

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

I don't know.

I think he could.

I think he could do it, John.

I'm sure.

God, you know, what a son.

Grandmother, if nothing else, has rebuilt that house.

That's a, you know, to live.

One of the great houses in Europe.

Oh, I remember.

The one with the garden.

With a fantastic garden.

And the house is better now.

Egypt.

You know, it's got wonderful suites with beautiful views of Rome.

What a son to retire to.

And John's closest.

He's over 60.

John?

Jewish.

62 years here.

Well, he's not well.

You know, he's got a problem with his arm and so forth.

But we can't make any exceptions.

I think Bill's case is more justified.

Or the reason that Henry at least gets all the plaudits.

And Bill is being pissed off over the place.

You know, Bill's a proud man.

And you've got to hand Bill a strike at Henry.

What do you view on that thing?

Oh, I think it's an unfortunate battle of people who have very different temperaments.

But I have to say that, yeah, Henry's got the plaudits.

And Henry doesn't know how to operate in a way to get the job done without getting the plaudits.

Unfortunately, he's

But he deserves it, correct?

Or at least it would appear that way.

I feel sorry because I don't like him to go out.

That would be bad if we just threw him out.

Oh, yes.

Don't you agree?

Yes, he's protected his rear pretty effectively.

How?

By moving around with the press in a way that gets him some.

I guess he could have publicly troubled his.

He hasn't fought our dinosaurs in many instances.

His problem in the economic end is, from the very beginning, he didn't admit that he needed the country.

No, not at all.

Well, it's a very interesting point of view.

He's quite a smart fellow.

He's a great salesman.

Great salesman.

Well, I'm trying to combine the NATO and the EDC ambassador.

You have one ambassador in Europe, and have him take it.

Let me tell you why that has great advantages.

The NATO then gives the first seat.

NATO is there.

We are members of NATO.

And NATO is the state to get the bastards to cooperate with the Europeans and all the hell with you and so forth.

But Peterson, and also you've got to, maybe you've got Peterson, but Peterson abroad has the intelligence to work with the Europeans and the understanding.

What do you like to do?

We'll see.

What do you like to do?

We're going to find out perhaps who they are.

No one says that.

That really is my idea.

It's a terrific job.

My idea.

Mr. President, is that...

This isn't confidence.

This is a pathos that we just talked about yesterday.

My view is that we've got to move the Europeans.

They've got to understand.

Get Peterson to move them.

And Peterson can move them.

That's my point.

That's what I thought of the idea.

Absolutely.

And you can see the reason.

But anyway, sir, we sent poor old Wade Kennedy over.

He did his best.

But we made him pay a little faster.

Of course, he didn't do that.

He has to go farther and so forth.

But anyway, we understand.

But it occurred to me...

The American Ambassador to NATO is a big post, considered a very important post, because we carry the liberty of our NATO.

The American Ambassador to the European Community is not a big post, because we're not members of the European Community.

Oh, it's shaking.

We just appointed a good operator as ambassador to D.C. like to be the deputy.

He could do the EC work for him.

Yes, he is.

He's a great salesman.

He occasionally gets locked in on a program, but he is.

I think that would be brilliant.

Because we've got to move the Europeans.

That's why I'd like to see more people like Mark Dietersall in the top European posts that could get to people and make them understand the risks they're playing by going and tiring them to the community.

Nixon, Flanigan & Bull on Ambassadorships and Second term reorganization

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on November 24, 1972

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