Nixon, Scali & Scowcroft on United Nations and US Foreign Policy

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Well, why don't you go out there tomorrow?

I present my credentials officially on Tuesday when Waldheim returns from his trip to India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh.

We will, uh, on that Waldheim, you know, he's not the strongest guy, but he's a hell of a lot better than that.

Uh, Wu-Tang.

Uh, we had to get a little shot a few months ago, and since then, he's behaved rather well.

So, uh, he can be very cardio on top of the line, appreciating the role that he has played.

And, uh, frankly, as you would say, that he was speaking for yourself.

There, and having your character close to the ground, you're feeling his predecessor, Tillman,

almost very part of the Communist Party, which many Americans understand.

We don't have to tilt toward us, but we can feel our way down the middle.

And that's all we want, is to treat people equally on the financial side.

uh uh

you find out that it makes it far more difficult, and there's probably nothing that I believe that's hurt the U.S. more in the American view, the failure of the U.S. to act on even a mild resolution of terrorism that people don't understand.

We know it's not his fault.

We know that, but that the United States

It just can't be in a position of being one of the, well, the major financial supporters of the UN.

And to lie down on something which, on the merits, should have unanimous approval.

We can't get any support there.

Frankly, some of the younger UN members from Africa and so forth would be very, very well advised to look to the future.

We want the U.S. around.

We want it to be useful.

But in order for it to survive and get support from this country, it's got to succeed.

It's got to accomplish something.

And on the accomplishment side, pay a little compliment on the environment.

Thank you.

That was a good one.

That was good.

Very positive.

There are other, in the peacekeeping world, for example, the U.N. has itself, after Utah has kicked us around, and he, too, will be around for so many years that perhaps they might end up with a more fair-minded approach.

The Middle Eastern, I would say, John, before he got here, he said,

Yes, he's keenly aware it's a two-track approach.

There's the open approach, which Bill Rogers is going to put in, and there's the approach that we have, where I say we have, you know, private contacts that we have with the Russians, with the Egyptians, probably, and of course with Mrs. Meyer directly.

It's very important, John, that you totally never know anything about the private airport.

You must know it, but you must never say anything.

You must never indicate to any of the people you work with on the base that, well, the reason you want to say this and that is something that's being done privately, because it's on the right of the wall.

We're not doing this in order to

to grab the issue away, if Christ is the other approach or work model, to go beyond simply talking about the UN, what a great organization this is, and so forth and so on.

You need to, frankly, defend U.S. foreign policy and tell the Russians to defend their policy, the defendant, to speak up for it, to be very positive about it, to understand it, and so forth and so on.

Well, that's one of the errors about it.

We can talk about what you want to do.

But one of my major objectives at the United Nations will be to talk about our foreign policy as a whole.

I'll relate it to the United Nations, to be sure.

But I will be the spokesman for the United States government and for the president.

on issues in ISIS on Sunday.

I think I succeeded in relating your bilateral initiatives within the framework of the UN, pointed out how your opening to China and your effort to improve relations with the Soviet Union inevitably could be reflected in more cooperation within the United Nations.

And so rather than being initiatives which downgrade the United Nations, enhance

prospect that we could work together in an international arena that much better.

I'm going there with a pragmatic, unromantic view of the United Nations.

And I'm going to see whether we can make this outfit work for our objectives.

And I'm fully aware of the hazards and the difficulties, but I will not hesitate to speak out to defend the United States.

And I will use sweet words when necessary.

And I'm going to bring with me, God willing, a bunch of hard-nosed, restless activists.

You are going to change stuff.

Yes, I am.

One of the things that I intend to do as president is to bring a black ambassador.

We don't have one now.

You don't?

No.

I have two men in mind, and I'm going to bring a woman, give her a role of ambassador, and I've already picked one out.

She's very well qualified, a tough gal, and who has USIA training.

But I also have discovered that in the mission, we have only two blacks out of 160.

I'm going to find three or four or five young officers who happen to be black.

Why don't you say that you're...

One of the problems that I'm

The Embassy of New York is the only one that we have anywhere in the world where there are no living allowances, no expense allowances of any kind.

So I'm being forced to concentrate on people that have some money or who have finished educating their kids.

And this is an enormous problem.

Now, John Rooney is the main reason for it.

New York is the most expensive city in the world.

And there is, you know, some small amounts available for the ambassador, but for the rest of these people, for example, one of the guys I have in mind is Dean Brown, the tough, vigorous, imaginative ambassador to Georgia, the one who stayed alive for all of these years.

And I talked to him.

Out of the thing, he says, can't afford it.

Can't afford it.

He's a great guy.

And he's the Foreign Service officer type that I want.

He can't afford it.

But I'm going to solve the problem.

But everybody, of course, has to have a little money.

That's right.

I guess you're right.

25% more expensive than here, even.

And if you have two or three kids to educate, then .

So this is a problem that has been raised.

But Rumi has always taken a very hard line on it.

George Bush feels very strongly that something new should be done on this.

Well, you know, you can go ahead and talk to Rudy.

Congressman, President, we helped him.

I helped save him.

I supported him.

I called him.

the uh oh the other thing is uh

I would have a, with your background experience, to who you're going to move around and have these other ambassadors and so forth.

You're not going to find that the American president is a particularly popular figure in the U.S.

and there has been in the past and will be in the future.

But I think on a basis of respect, that you can handle individual matters.

I'm not referring to the Europeans, but some of the others.

And it all gets back to, in other words, having the time to write the conversations about that.

It would be very useful in your social... Well, I'm going to depict you as I believe you are a strong supporter of the United Nations at works.

Sure.

And, uh, and it is fair.

That's right.

I don't want it to be our, it should not be our tool.

It should not be our puppet.

You can just say that out loud.

That's what I believe.

It should be an American puppet or an American tool.

But it should treat, it should be even-handed.

Even-handed and distributed to all countries, large and small.

It shouldn't discriminate against America.

It shouldn't be the, I put it another way, the smaller country should not gang up against the larger country.

It should not gang up against the United States.

It doesn't do them any good to pass high-sounding, one-sided resolutions that go down all flags flying, and have the industrial powers of necessity ignore them, because we're interested in movement, and I'm interested in three inches of movement.

The British, for example, have a lot of integrity right now, too, you know.

And the French have never cared for it.

So it really needs a gentleman's face.

or it's just going to be kind of a battle of smaller countries with no power and a lot of voice.

And the only way to achieve that advantage is through success.

That's right.

It would be great if we could accomplish something other than talk.

Something we could all understand.

If, for example, we get

long time as chairman of the peace conference and if he behaves in a scrupulously fair way it could enhance his prestige and that of the u.n

You see the tendency of the conference is that we're going to kick this out of the MVP round.

They've got to recognize all the way from here to McCulloch, McCulloch, McCulloch, that part of the conference.

They have a well-planned strategy, or we are going to be, we're going to lose.

Even if he does not, I don't know how he handles this to destroy his usefulness as far as the bus is concerned.

He's got to realize that.

We're not asking for unfair treatment.

If, for example, he does perform effectively, if he does perform in an even-handed way,

We might consider at some point inviting him up there and at least patting him on the back of our ear.

Of course I will.

Absolutely.

He's got to earn it.

Yeah, he's not going to come in until he's earned it.

That's right.

But if you recommend it, he's done a good job with it, I'm sure.

So I see everybody else, why not you?

This would be just another one of these little signals that, of course, you're a supporter of the United Nations and you want to see it work out.

That's right.

I think you could certainly do that.

I'll wait for you to give us the signal.

I heard such a word.

You're in a hurry.

I was getting about so bored that I'm going to have to pass it.

Mr. President, I deeply appreciate two things.

Number one, that you had enough confidence in me to bring me into your White House, that makes me give it.

And I know that it must have been a bit controversial before it was made.

But in any event, you have my total assurance that I will represent the President of the United States at that job, and I am willing to work by campus.

We had an interesting thing that inspired doubts.

One of the new things for our years in Henry Reed, one of the things that made me want to do this, we were just thinking about it, and I just thought about it.

I think I appreciate you.

Yes, that connection.

I hope you got a chance to see some of that.

I did.

I watched it all day yesterday.

It was so heartwarming.

And seeing them coming off of that plane, slowly down, walking.

and that mouth of fish, and that, God bless America, came out of that, wow, dead, and the first man.

It was like a very different way in the 70s, but our strong structure of ownership was a small step for man, a giant step for mankind.

And, you know, it's something you remember, and God bless America for the rest of their days.

Well, I'll tell you, it's good, though.

It's good for this country.

I don't think we know yet.

I think it's going to depend on the reports of the people who come out.

Yeah, well I would imagine that for example,

I mean, the colonel probably, he just brought some information out with him.

As to which one, sir?

That's right.

Apparently, I've heard about a couple that were apparently pretty bad.

I guess collaborating with the false stories, which affected some of the other prisoners.

But this is just nothing to do with it.

I guess it made it harder for some of the other prisoners.

Made it harder how, I mean, I guess?

You mean to keep their grounds or whatever?

Well, apparently they told tales that then the North used to give some of our other prisoners a hard time.

Oh.

That's what it said.

Because it was punishment for all the restrictions on them.

But I don't have any first-hand reports yet.

Well, you've got to expect that out of that thing, don't you?

I think it's inevitable.

Even officers, of course.

These guys who were great.

It's great that the first 126 were so damn good.

Oh, that's right.

I think the proportion is going to be very high.

But even if there are three or four of us, out of that, that's a great, great percentage of people.

Other than that, our front row.

What's the next?

Reesner.

Where's Adam Overtain's son?

He was on this list.

He's been five years.

He's alive?

Yes, he's alive.

He's been six years.

Six or seven.

Well, that's great.

Thank you.

It's rather ironic that these may be our only heroes of this world.

Not in the long term, but in the short term.

But it's good to have them.

The American people need to be proud of somebody.

And they're proud of these people for what they run for.

In a way, too, Mr. President, this enhances the enormity of the achievement of making peace.

i think so because everybody heard it it's proof positive really i don't think the war is over you know they stopped shooting and so i think it's going to have a very important backwash

There wasn't much doubt as I talked to companies why I just wanted their husbands because it wasn't edited.

It was about, they didn't mention it, but they knew damn well, you know.

And they said, without the president taking it strongly, and this is a reasoner said, he said, without the president taking it, she said, if you talk to your husband this way,

Terrible pressure he must have had.

We should encourage you not to be bashful about saying this at the appropriate time.

I can't say no, because I don't want to jeopardize the others.

But once we do, I think they helped.

Well, I already released this morning and said, didn't say who said it, but one of them said they took a strong poll before the election last fall, and the chief had won the election.

That's right.

And do you remember last fall, before the election, about all we heard was one or two who had sent contributions out for government and the press.

The fact is, as we suspected, they... Well, they also... All right.

The other thing, too, is that they're all... Can you imagine how it would have been if they had come home after a bug out?

That all we did was bought this damn long horse to get them back on land.

but here they come out their heads high they know that they have to put it to the street that's when they said their sacrifice was for something there's a sacrifice

And it's the difference between extricating the United States and ending the American involvement, and ending it in a way which brings peace to 15 million people.

Peace for a while.

Well, peace, a chance to survive a world away, a chance, a way, a guarantee, if God wills.

Love us, if God wills.

Probably should be 100 anyway.

The problem is, some people might, for a while, never know.

The main weakness of the communist system, the reason it's not very expanding, except through subversion, right, is that the goddamn thing doesn't work.

I'm not even sure if we should maybe turn to that or anything else.

But, uh, when you see what, when you see, well, all you gotta do is visit Eastern Ireland.

You see, you know, the pains, and the cold, and it all means your goddamn government.

You just hate it.

Well, John, you can get off to your, uh, your flush box in New York.

Oh, yes.

Well, it's fine.

Yeah, that, uh, that apartment is a nice one there.

Is it a nice bed?

Yes, the lodge there once.

Did he say that?

Yes.

Did you advise him?

I've told him.

Good.

Because he's a good man and a decent man.

You should have told him.

You've seen Bush, of course.

Yeah.

I'd like to take my answers to see if he has them.

No, no.

No, really.

When I say no, he isn't.

Seriously, you should see it.

There's no reason to.

He was on the side.

He saw her.

He's just read the new book called The Misconduct of the American Foreign Policy.

He probably got it on just before he saw her.

He did.

The Misconduct of the American Foreign Policy.

Oh, be sure to read, as I told you at the end of the day, because I think Barry's book is interesting.

I mean, basically, Barry's a liberal, actually, in a nice way, but he's a, well, everybody would be damn pleased for him.

But it's interesting, not what it tells about the Kennedys, but what it tells about the processes of public relations to break through.

If you read it, I have it on my desk.

I want you to read the book and read it for yourself.

Well, I'll tell you, don't read the whole thing.

Start with the 11th chapter, and that takes you to the fourth of all three parts.

And it does indicate there are certain limitations as to what we can do.

In other words, it's interesting because it tells us about this analysis of how you handle the problems of the...

expectations abroad at all, commitments and so forth, and crisis management.

It's a very, very, very tough.

You may have known that the foreign policy crisis had come worse for the state when the Security Council made the plan.

You're going to have a most certain plan on it.

I think you said the other day.

Why the hell is he meeting there?

Because the man who made him skillfully mobbied for two years and came around from Panama to be chairman of the security council of that country.

And they lined up 14 of the 15 of those.

What's he going to look into then?

Supposedly to discuss, uh...

economic and social problems in Latin America, but it means that the Panamanians are going to shoot us in the butt on the panel.

And now the negotiations, the Chileans are going to show up and complain about multinational corporations and unions, about Guantanamo, Puerto Rico.

Yeah.

The Peruvians about the votes and everything.

Yeah.

There's not going to be any deal on Cuba, that's for sure.

I was asking that question, would you sell us out and wait for a word?

What did I do?

I did.

I think the name of it happened.

You take part in this whole thing.

The point is that I'm not going to lecture the president.

I'm going to lecture other governments on the conflict, and that cuts both ways.

We're not lecturing the Congress, and we're not lecturing others.

Our concern in the field of oral policy must be

the policy of the nation toward us under the policy of the men.

Now, of course, if they engage in genocide, if they engage in activities that outrage the conscience of the world, and of course, being private, we may feel that we like one system better than another.

But the idea that the United States is going to .

Now, if they say, well, now, what does this mean that you're going to give aid to countries that have dictatorships?

Yes.

I mean, and that's why this issue of anti-racism.

Do any of you object to our getting any news log in?

For me?

No.

Right.

Hold it.

No.

Addictions.

Or relations.

Now, with regard to China and Cuba, there's a real difference there.

Right.

Our attitude toward Cuba...

But our concern with Cuba and Russia and China is not their policy within, but their policy without.

And Cuba's policy toward the United States and toward our allies and friends in the Western Hemisphere is one of subversion and constant aggression.

When they change their policy toward their neighbors and toward us, we'll change ours.

But as long as they are taking that policy, we will not change ours.

And that's why we've changed the China policy.

The China policy, the Shanghai communique, and the Russian policy has been one of a live and let live policy.

Cuba has not yet come to that point.

You say, well, Castro changes his policy toward us and his neighbors.

Well, you've got to be very, very, no give there.

No give.

No thought about it.

No thought at all.

The other point that you have to remember, first, you have to get along well with the President.

This fall, he said something very bad to the President there.

He gave you a lot of time, and he just blasted the hell out of us.

If you're at the United Nations,

You know, he denounced it as the view of the devil.

And the Mexican president, the other man, he's also been denouncing this in Mexico as he is sort of an object here.

Now, you're talking to the Mexican president.

You could say the president should have created a personal attraction for the president of Mexico.

And this is true also in the United States.

who understand how nations of the enemy very closely run their relations with them.

Why it is that they constantly never miss one thing.

to get the United States around.

Now this is particularly true of some of the countries.

The magnitude of this, I think, is Sahara, a great friend of ours, because Adam Malek, who was a bad one, he's the same friend, but he's not good.

But Adam Malek is a great person.

Now I think if Sahara would have started out, I would thank him and say, look, there may be a time, Sahara says,

in our policy of neutrality, this is what I'm trying to read, that we would have to criticize the United States as well as .

He said, well, of course, that's your choice, but I have to argue that those who receive aid from the United States cannot have both ways.

He said, our Congress is not going to accept that.

And I think you've got to be with these people that we don't expect to be loved by everybody, but we expect to be treated fairly by everybody.

And that's the international monetary situation.

But the luxury that asshole Google has engaged in, that this fellow from Mexico, and all these people,

never missed an opportunity to kick the United States, but they didn't have so much of that.

That's gone.

I don't mean that we as a big country every time on these picks, we don't react to them publicly.

Believe me, privately, we didn't have it, but Jesus had it.

And the way you do it is to throw it all on the Congress.

I would say that the President is very restrained when this is going on, but the Congress and the Congresses have been very good.

We can do lots of things for our children.

They can have a lot of concessions from us.

And we can do a hell of a lot for Canada.

Right?

Look at their balance of trade with us.

And I also think that on occasion, Mr. President, that at least one of the U.N. friends, John Scali, could express a point of view.

Yes, sir.

Which is more, well, more disappointing.

Yeah.

I would say that I would use the term double standard.

Take it.

I said there can't be a double standard.

double-spent.

I didn't shot that.

And if you didn't shot, you want to remember too that it does go hard to stir up the water.

I was amused that the Time Magazine took Bill Rogers on for what he said about an answer to a terribly vicious question about his freezer.

Bill said exactly what he said.

It was one of Roger's magic moments.

And they call it Dracula.

You're damn right.

And what I can say, what I tell the press, after we started the rest of this call, please don't make a piece without my sentence on the gag.

They had to hear it.

They don't write it, but they did that at the one time the bastards had written it.

Right?

Bill had done that once or twice before.

He'd be stronger.

That's right.

Thank you.

You know, there's been a thing like that.

Remember, in the position of St. John's County was unwarranted.

I know.

Well, don't.

You know, you don't want to.

You don't want to.

Don't just do what you're trying to do.

Go out and cover those cameras.

Cover those cameras so that the right is impressed and doesn't do what you said.

You know, all the power is the name of the game.

Okay, good luck.

Off you go.

Thank you.

And we'll be in great possession.

Yes, sir.

Nixon, Scali & Scowcroft on United Nations and US Foreign Policy

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Also recorded on February 13, 1973

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