Nixon, Dean & Sanchez on Congressional investigations and Watergate

DeanGood morning, Mr. President.
NixonHi, John. How are you?
NixonWell, I want to ask you about [unintelligible] see Kleindienst yet?
DeanYes, I talked to him yesterday and he is going to be very clear in any conversations with Ervin and Baker that, first of all,
Deanhe couldn't begin to speak for the White House, but his own position would be that the White House had a very important principle to protect. He would assume that, basically, White House staff would be unavailable and it had to be a very exceptional set of circumstances before the President would or he could even counsel a President to consider it.
DeanAnd he's going to leave it hanging way out there for any early conversations with that people. Put them on notice that it's going to be march right up.
NixonYou think he's that way?
DeanI know that he is. He also I don't know if you noted what Gray's position was up there yesterday or not. Getting a little storm away. Dick Kleindienst I don't know, we're very surprised by that.
NixonHow what? What did he have to say?
DeanSaying that the FBI records, as far as he was concerned, were available to any senator in the United States Senate.
NixonHe's out of his mind.
DeanWell, that was my reaction. He also said that if they're not satisfied with any material that they're provided, he'll provide agents to come down and and brief these people. So, Dick Kleindienst, last night-
NixonFollow-through, Dick's got to get to Gray, because-
DeanHe called Gray late last night.
NixonKleindienst knows Gray about the Hiss case, for Christ's sake, that's the standard. I mean, the FBI Good God, who would believe that the the Congress will ruin, the Congress will ruin it.
DeanI think I think Dick ought to be aware of the Hiss case in some detail as to the position that the-
NixonWell, the Hiss in detail was simply that the FBI, Hoover always fought this, the government never, they wouldn't allow Hoover even to talk to me. That was Truman's position. He couldn't. No agent of the committee
Nixonno no no counsel of the committee, Robert Stripling, was not allowed to have any contact with the FBI. They gave no information. They provided no leads.
NixonThey didn't thwart our efforts. They were working with, through trying to kill the Hiss
DeanMhm.
Nixonsuit, that way, but, God damn it, that's the line that he's got to realize is What was his point to the Senate? Remember what the reporter said, he suggested
Nixonhe with reluctance had acceded to a White House request to see the FBI files of Watergate, and what else did he say? Did he indicate that Congress can't the White House?
DeanThat's kind of a curious position he put himself in yesterday.
NixonWell, I would think that he would say, "Of course, I did. They were conducting their own investigation."
DeanAnd that was exactly-
NixonDid he answer that?
DeanHe did. He ultimately came out with that. They were pursuing him on whether or not the White House had revealed the FBI reports to CREEP. That did not happen. I can absolute without hesitation, it did not happen. No way.
NixonDid he go over what he's to say today about-
DeanI will.
Nixonrequire information? Correct.
DeanThat's correct.
NixonWell, Jesus Christ, that he can get down there and just say any Congressman-
DeanWell, Dick-
NixonAny Congressman, did he say?
DeanHe Well, he said any member of the Senate.
NixonThe Senate?
DeanThe Senate. Then he goes to the House. He's He's He's out of his goddamned mind. The House will insist on the same rights.
DeanThat's exactly right.
NixonYou're damn, you'll have Bella, Bella Abzug in getting the FBI stuff. What's he going to say? How is he going to say
DeanHe He's put himself in a defenseless position, there's no doubt about it. Kleindienst was going to pull him up short on it, say that, "You didn't clear this position with the Attorney General. This is not my position. As far as I'm willing to go is to give these people a summary of the investigation, and if they contest the summary, they can send their counsel down to look at the
Dean302 reports," which are the-
NixonWhy weren't they prepared on an advance for this? Like, they'd gone over this with Kleindienst, had he not? Well, I don't Well, they'd gone over with Gray, had he not?
DeanJesus Christ, he he can't be so Is he a little dumb? A little bull-headed.
NixonRight. Was he trying to, is he trying to pander to these people too much?
DeanI think that's it. I think he's frightened and a little bit bull-headed on this. I think he knows now that he made this is a this is a bad slip on his on his part. And he knows this morning that he can If he goes back up today, he's going to have to say, "I didn't have the authority to say that.
NixonYeah.
Dean"Now that's what I said to you, but I was speaking just for the committee.
NixonHe can't put this down anyway.
NixonBelieve, believe me, the FBI cannot make its The The past practice, he is aware that the FBI
Nixoncannot be available to a committee. It really can't.
NixonIn fact, this, this is stretching it, some of which far more than you should, to give FBI raw data to a committee of the Congress of the United States.
NixonIt's not been done.
DeanThe only situation I can recall where there's been cooperation between the FBI and the committee is with McClellan's Investigative Committee. The FBI, from time to time, on organized crime, has been of assistance, but it's not been overt, it's been covert assistance to preserve the principle.
Nixontell. Well, as a matter of fact that was the phony in the whole thing. The order was what did they do with it? What in the world happened there? We've been crying to get stuff out there from the FBI on the coal face. I've already just come back out on shore.
NixonRight particularly to see what connections were made with.
DeanNo, I did part of it. A part of that, part of the security.
NixonAll right, well they didn't go. They got the whole field because they got the candidate and they were on their own.
NixonThey were the whole idea of what the boy said they were doing. I guess that was like whoever the idea that they didn't go, they didn't go back sure.
DeanNo.
NixonHere, FBI agents in any case, they got the, they got three reporters and they got all of them out of bed and said we want to know where, what is the source of your, what is the source of your, you can read it in a little book called The Cambridge Murder Mistakes by Allen Smith, junior.
Nixonfascinating little story if you recall. But I want to see everything and everything else that you have. Sit down some time with me the way you were talking to me the other day.
DeanI'll do that.
NixonIn terms of what Johnson did. You know, and who how the other the phone thing how that came in, how Johnson used it and so forth and so on. I just want to know what the hell we did now.
NixonAnd let me see what would they do with it.
DeanRight.
NixonI mean, think how they would
DeanRight.
NixonI think the uh, I think the uh The FBI though, we have not used it, frankly, at all. I mean, that's the
DeanEven when I spoke to Kleindienst the other day, he said
DeanIt's It's true. It is It's toast, of course, to what the administration could've done. We have been so kind and so good uh, as far as tasking the FBI. In fact, in some instances, I thought we should task them to do things that they, uh, they are quite capable of doing.
DeanKleindienst also mentioned to me on this '68 bugging thing,
NixonYeah.
DeanYeah. He'd had lunch with DeLoach yesterday.
NixonOh, why?
DeanAnd DeLoach uh, said that uh, said that, he said that there was no bugging of the President's plane, per se,
Deancontrary to what Hoover might have said. I said, "Well, Dick, why, how did you read that?" He said, "Well, one of two things: One, DeLoach knows that uh, he'd be in serious trouble for a potential felony himself if he confessed it,
Deanuh, or two, it didn't happen."
NixonRight.
DeanUh, and so, that's uh, I said, "Well, how do you read it?" I said, "Uh, I would read it that man would, would, would be very doubtful if he would confess himself into a felony." And,
NixonThat's right.
Deanso it's going to be tough to prove, uh, because DeLoach is the one who probably knows. And, unless we can find, through some other sources,
NixonYeah.
Deansome of the people who actually did the wiring. What you've got to do, John, is what I told Gray to do, and he has not done.
NixonHe should get right down with the uh
NixonCan he have the little boys that did it? And I told Gray, I said you haven't done it.
DeanThat's right. That's, that's exactly right.
NixonSo, uh, so I want Well, you know who does the bugging. Now just go back and see who the hell's done it. One of them, and lay them all in a lie-detector, because I'll shake that bureau right to its roots.
NixonThat's what I would do.
DeanI think the The timing on that, of course, would be this: Right after the hearings. Right after the hearings, Gray could be sworn in, and just go in and, and start spreading things wide open.
NixonThat's right. All right, and I think he should. Just bring them in and say, "All right, you've been taking all the lie detectors, all of you.
DeanWell, John Connally could be persuasive in that, also.
NixonJohn Connally, yes, he can. That's right.
NixonLet's find out.
NixonI want you to tell, you might give a call
Nixongive Kleindienst a call. He better, he'd better have a heart-to-heart talk with DeLoach and say, look,
Nixonwe now have other evidence corroborating it. We don't want DeLoach to be in a position of having perjured himself because it's going to be investigated. Just to get that word out.
DeanMhm, that'll bring him up.
NixonJust say, look, you just say, look, I just want you to know that there's uh we now have evidence that uh that he uh he lied to the Attorney General
Nixonput it that way and uh on those circumstances that uh that because uh that it was a case in this and uh if a full field investigation is going to be made, damn sharp, that uh
Nixonwe we wouldn't want him just for his because we know he's friendly to both. He's got to tell Kleindienst better tell the truth.
NixonOr we'll get perjured, right?
DeanYeah.
DeanIt'll stir him up. There's something in there.
NixonIt may, it may or not, but it'll at least let him worry. Let people worry a little. You know. That's a good way, you know, as if as if we were, you know, as a friend,
Nixonwe don't want to hurt anybody, that that uh, told him the boys in the woodwork are talking. The little boys in the woodwork.
NixonWe're not going to get into it until this thing is over. It's coming right.
NixonBut uh, right after Gray is confirmed, that'll be that. Look, it, there's a, it'll be very, a big story in it, it seems to me. And there are other speakers, a hot piece, we've reporters on it.
NixonDeLoach better be told, he better not get into a lie, perjury himself about that bugging.
DeanWell, there is a hot newspaper reporter, Kevin Phillips, is all over this and trying to get it out.
NixonSee, DeLoach told Mitchell, they went, and he told Mitchell that that didn't go. That's what his story eventually was. But he did these telephone things.
DeanYeah, he's already, he said what he he he told Kleindienst yesterday again, he said that, "We did trace telephone calls made from Agnew's airplane. We got the toll records
NixonYeah.
Deanof those, and tracked those down as to where they were going."
NixonYeah.
Nixonthat's our problem is to uh
DeanMhm.
Nixonwell just say there are people on there that are calling. You know, you go and tell them
NixonI don't know whether it was on through Kendall's or not.
Nixonand uh that the press are hot on it, we just want to warn him. And tell him that they DeLoach, and what he said to the Attorney General is not true. That uh, they took the things to say, they whispered about what he said was not true,
Nixonand he'd better get his story straight with the Attorney General. Well, he's a problem. Why not? What do you think?
DeanI think I think it's an excellent idea. Let the man worry a little bit.
NixonYeah, yes. You'll worry always a little bit Sweet Jesus, it's terrible.
DeanBecause he might also worry himself into telling us a few more things that would be helpful to us, on the other side of it, too.
NixonThat's right.
NixonNow Kendall is uh, our friend is going to go around and he's going to say that look, here's only the real information,
Nixoncalls were made to that telephone.
DeanMhm.
DeanHe said that he [unintelligible]
Nixon[unintelligible] the whole thing. These investigations are going forward [unintelligible]. Some boys down in the woodwork there that are that are that are [unintelligible]
DeanThat he better get back.
DeanI think if DeLoach's worry had slowed down now. He's trying to claim his he's trying to claim he's become great friends with. I I wouldn't uh I wouldn't trust him at all. I'd always
NixonI never trusted DeLoach. He's a politician.
DeanAbsolutely. He's out for DeLoach first and he was playing to whoever, whoever was in power right [unintelligible]. Whoever occupied this office he felt
NixonHe wanted to be around whoever would win. He just played the wrong horse.
DeanThat's right.
NixonI knew that. Maybe he'll be more careful from now on. Not well, but I never trusted DeLoach.
NixonUh the only man we could ever rely on over there was Sullivan. The only other guy who really may know is Tolson. Poor Tolson.
DeanHe's sick. That's right. I understand he is. He is as well. And I've been trying to find out to uh what link we might have to Tolson. Of course Tolson's brother is with the White House Historical Society.
DeanWhat his relationship with his brother is, I don't know, but I've just always had a I I can talk to him directly, but I shouldn't. I may, sometime.
NixonYou never know about Tolson. He might go out yacking [unintelligible].
DeanWell, at some point a call on his general health That's right. might not hurt. Yes.
DeanYou know, we can check that out first and then decide. Yeah. We can have someone check up on him and see how he's feeling. Somebody just can't foresee it, you know. You check also what his birthday is, that'd be another thing. Right. You never know.
NixonHe knows. You know Hoover, so that he knows it, the only man Hoover had confidence in, he had confidence in you always. I'm sure Hoover told Tolson everything [unintelligible]
NixonTolson kind of counselled him. Hoover may probably the way we happen Gray. Jesus Christ, he's hell bent with it.
DeanThat's right. Now, the bureau cannot survive, god, it cannot survive, Gray [crosstalk] can't prove and Gray.
Dean[unintelligible] That's right.
NixonCan't act like a hero.
DeanWell, Gray. Yes.
NixonThe bureau the Federal Bureau of Investigation, makes files available to the Congress. Hell, some of those congressmen are under are damn near under communist suspicion. That's the reason Hoover would never do it.
DeanSome of them are from the Mafia, they're tapped in back by the Mafia.
NixonHe can say, "Only under strict these regulations of the committee hearing must be a committee authorized by the Congress of the United States. Individual congressmen, of course, cannot get information. That is not allowed. It must be authorized by the House or Senate investigating committee for uh for legitimate legislative purpose.
NixonAnd then that under that we will provide a summary. You know, that sort of thing. Golly, all this all raw files [unintelligible] believe. Well, how did that ever start?
DeanWell, oh I know. The the most spectacular thing is, his He is saying, "I will make agents who did the investigation, who are on top of this, available." Now, these people are full of impressions, innuendo, uh uh their own feelings about the case. Yeah.
DeanUh whether they were getting cooperation from a witness, whether they weren't. Uh There was a There was a considerable amount of bitching, for example, that I sat in on everybody at the White House and interviewed, no matter how many they'd be, no other than no other course.
NixonWhy, of course. That's right.
NixonWho else they want? Outside counsel? This is the White House, they're entitled to it.
DeanThey said they uh They said that standard policy of the FBI was that no one was present when they interviewed somebody, but they didn't really. I said, "Well, you want to interview these people, you're going to do it while I'm sitting here because I think I'm entitled to know for my own purposes."
NixonWell, you're conducting you're conducting an investigation for the president, right? That's right. That's right.
NixonThat's why. But Gray can say, "You're conducting an investigation. You did."
DeanYeah.
NixonGray has demonstrated in this first day's hearing he's got total lack of [unintelligible]. This is which is the reason why Gray doesn't bother me. It's too much bravado there. He's a big, strong Navy guy, and, "Oh, everything is great, boys, let's go," you know. The guy hasn't got much outward self-confidence, doesn't have much inward self-confidence. That's what I think.
DeanDid you see him today?
NixonWent
Deanhaving done the cards.
Nixongood, but with Gray you never know neither whether he's got the cards. Very well, Christ, you never know that, either.
DeanWell, he doesn't have. He's a little loud.
NixonA little loud.
DeanHe's a well, you know, when he talks shit, you think the good lord was playing, he's got the cards.
DeanI think Gray will be all right once we get him through these hearings. We've got Yeah. He is smart, no doubt about that.
NixonThe trouble is, we're going to treat that goddamned FBI out just like the Chesna straightening out the other.
NixonNow, the other thing is this, you got to remember. Gray, he's pressed too much.
NixonHe may have to face the fact that he'll have to go, you know what I mean? Okay. I have no compunction about that at all, he's a friend and all that, but that would be, in other words, if we get started on that ground, huh? FBI is not was not we have to demand, you see my point? That's right.
DeanIt would have to be that way, otherwise you're jeopardizing one of the institutions of government that uh But, I don't see that. I don't see Gray uh being in that position. I think that uh he wants to be confirmed very badly. He wants to appear that he has nothing to hide about the Watergate, right? But that's good too.
NixonWell, it's good for him, but not for us. In other words, I don't want him to be in the position
DeanHe's proud of his Watergate investigation. Uh I bet he's proud of his investigation and, uh, despite the fact it caused us some kind of incredible grief. Yeah.
NixonI only talked to Gray once since he was confirmed.
NixonIt's just as well his name is out of it. I called him about a hijacking case.
NixonAnd I congratulated the FBI and that is why he called me.
NixonAnd he raised the Watergate thing, and I didn't raise it.
NixonThis was right after it began, remember?
NixonI remember the sequence, because Pat told me, well, about his suspicions about the White House. He was raising suspicions.
DeanThat's right.
NixonAnd I said that I should talk to Gray.
DeanAnd, well, what had happened is, we had been we'd been leaning on Gray to stay on top of the investigation, and Pat was out making a lot of speeches, and we kept telling him, "Pat, you ought to sit on top of this investigation, and keep an eye on it." Yeah.
DeanBut he was new in the in the chair over there, and that was, you know, that was a strange office to him. Yeah.
NixonWell, he should have known better, but you know Hoover, with his attitude—
NixonEven in the later times, when sure, they said, they said that he talked too much, he was arrogant, but Goddamn it, that's the way that the FBI did not leak and it cannot leak. I mean, frankly, Edgar Hoover didn't leak on Johnson. He didn't leak on Bobby Kennedy. He shouldn't.
DeanThat's right.
DeanWell, when he you know, when he said jump, everybody jumped. They might not have liked jumping, but they sure did jump. Right.
NixonThat's good. You bet.
DeanI think Pat was I think Pat was—
NixonWell, I just wanted to be sure that Gray was aware of—
NixonWell, if that anything that, ah, that that, those two things,
Nixonthat his testimony is, uh,
Nixoncleared up and that it doesn't cross me.
DeanI'll get it all straightened out today, and we'll get to Kleindienst, uh,
NixonSee?
NixonNow this, uh, goes into court now. Forward in the back, uh, there's a book, uh, uh, that, uh, best one, little book, about Silver. You've read it? By any chance, in that program, did they say anything about speech? The first chapter, say anything about it?
DeanNo, I didn't, uh, know it, Mr. President.
NixonWell, uh, you'll find it, uh, very, very interesting.
DeanHe's pretty good, but this guy has called you. I have no idea what the sub- subject unknown.
NixonWell, I've got a couple of questions. Tell him I'm in a meeting with- with Mr. Mayer at the moment and uh, but have to step out, he could just give us an idea what the subject is. If it's urgent, he might come out, wouldn't that be better? Otherwise, I might can call him. All right.
DeanAll right.
NixonIs that—
DeanIs Tom in his—I would suspect, on this Friday, that he's tried pulling the plug short, and wants you to know it.
NixonAll right. If If he's Tom that I won't call him if it's urgent, tell him to let me know, but I will call him, I will return the call. I'm in a meeting with Mr. Mayer, you see that.
DeanShall be done. And let me know.

Nixon, Dean & Sanchez on Congressional investigations and Watergate

AI Summary

Audio

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Transcript (AI-generated)

Also recorded on March 1, 1973

Cite this conversation

Nixon, Dean & Sanchez on Congressional investigations and Watergate

AI Summary

Audio

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Transcript (AI-generated)

Also recorded on March 1, 1973

Related conversations

Cite this conversation