Conversation 866-003

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I only talked to Gray once, and she was confirmed.

I mean, since we sent his name down, I called him up on a high-tech case.

I congratulated him beyond, not as I used to call it, but as I said.

Then he raised it.

My father gave it to me.

I had no idea what he was going to do.

He said, well, it's a little bit wild to be a worker.

This was right at the very beginning.

I remember the sequence.

I remember Ray telling me about it.

That's right.

And, well, what had happened is we had been leaning on Ray to stay on top of the investigation.

And Pat was out making a lot of speeches.

And we kept telling him, Pat, you ought to sit on top of this investigation and keep an eye on it.

But he was new in the, in the chair over there.

Those were, you know, it was a strange office to him.

Yeah.

Well.

Interesting, interesting.

Well, there shouldn't be nobody's room to get out.

Hoover was his idea.

Even at the later times, I mean, sure, they, you know, they had everything, but not the little stuff you said.

He didn't talk to you much.

He wasn't very impressive.

He ran a tight ship.

Well, when he said, you know, he said jump, everybody jumped.

They might not have liked jumping, but they sure did jump.

Well, anyway, that's good news.

I think Pat will.

Well, I just want to make sure that Greg was aware of that.

That is testimony that's, uh... We don't... That is testimony.

I'll get you both straight out of there, and we'll get you...

I'll get you, uh... Let's see.

Now this, uh, goes to the front.

It's over in the bedroom, and there's a book on that desk over there, a little book on silver.

You can read it over here.

Good thing I didn't find this in that book.

I'll get this.

I'm going to read the history of the first chapter of the book of Christ.

I'm going to have a look at it.

Very great.

The attorney general just tried to call you.

I have no idea what the subject does know.

I've got to go with David.

Well, I've got to go with the subject.

Come in my head, please.

I will.

Go to my hair at the moment.

I have to step out.

If you just give us an idea of what the subject is, the search might come out.

Okay.

Otherwise, I can't call you.

All right.

I would suspect it's on this break.

He's probably pulling up short.

I want you to know it.

All right.

Just tell him that I won't call him.

It's urgent.

I will call him.

I will return to call him.

But I'm in a meeting with him.

This is my air to say that.

Shall we do it?

Then let me know.

Good morning, Mr. President.

How are you?

Well, I was going to ask you about the .

Yes, I talked to him again yesterday, and he is going to be very clear in conversations with Ervin and Baker that, first of all, he couldn't begin to speak for the White House, but his own position would be

that the White House has a very important principle to protect, and that he would assume that basically White House staff would be unavailable, and it had to be a very exceptional set of circumstances before the president would, or he could even counsel the president to consider it.

And he's going to leave it hanging way out there for any early conversations, which I think will put him on the list of...

And he is.

He also, I don't know if you noted what great position was up there yesterday or not.

I'll give you a little store away.

Dick, I don't know.

I was very surprised by that.

You mean what I'm saying?

Saying that the FBI records, as far as he was concerned, were available to any senator in the United States Senate.

And he was young.

Well, that was my reaction.

He also said that...

If they're not satisfied with any material that they're provided, he'll provide agents to come down and brief these people.

So Dick, uh, Clinging's last night, all of a sudden he got to Gray, because he called Gray last night.

Dick, why doesn't Clinging know, Gray, about the his case, the crisis?

That's the standard thing.

If the FBI could come to the Congress and rule it, the Congress will rule it.

I think, I think Dick ought to be aware of the his case in some details as to the position of the,

Well, the government, this isn't the distant detail, it's the central panel of government, and Hoover always fought this.

The government never, it wouldn't allow Hoover even to talk to me.

That was the Truman position.

No agent of the committee, no counsel of the committee, certainly was not allowed to have any contact with the FBI.

They gave no information.

That's kind of a curious position he put himself in yesterday.

And that was exactly the point.

Did he ever say that?

He did.

He ultimately came out with that.

They were pursuing him on whether or not the White House had revealed the FBI report to the security.

That did not happen.

I can assure you.

No, without hesitation, it did not happen.

No way.

If you don't think you're going to say the name of it, I will.

Of course.

Of course I will.

The White House said that.

They...

information.

Correct.

That's correct.

But Jesus Christ, he gets down there and says, any Congress.

Any Congress, you mean he said?

Well, he said any member of the Senate.

The Senate?

The Senate.

Well, then he goes to the House.

He's got his goddamn mind.

The House will insist on the same rights.

That's exactly right.

What's he going to say?

He's put himself in a defenseless position.

There's no doubt about it.

My niece is going to pull him up short on it and say that you didn't clear this position with the attorney general.

This is not my position.

As far as I'm willing to go is to give these people a summary of the investigation, and if they contest the summary, they can send their counsel down to look at the 302 reports.

Why don't we need to carry on and advance through this like a guide over this?

I think that's it.

I think he's frightened and a little bit bullheaded on this.

I think he knows now that this is a bad slip on his part.

And he knows that this morning, if he goes back up today, he's going to have to say, I didn't have authority to say that.

Now, that's what I should have said, that I was really talking to this committee, but we can't prove it as well anyway.

I believe, believe me, the FBI cannot make its, the, the, uh, ask the committee to be as aware of the fact that the FBI can't even be available to a committee.

It really can't.

In fact, this, this instruction is on the bench far more than you should.

To give FBI law data,

to a committee of the Congress of the United States.

It's not been done.

The only situation I can recall where there's been cooperation between the FBI and the committee is with McClellan's investigative committee.

The FBI, at the time, on organized crime, has been of assistance, but it's not been overt.

It's been more covert assistance to preserve the principle.

But in the case of the hit station, I hope this is what I want.

I want you to get a true picture of him.

God damn it.

That was a, that was a major, uh, a major confrontation, and they threw in and said, hell no.

The Justice Department said, hell no.

There was Larkin that won.

No, sir.

And, and Hoover, who was a friend of ours, who was all for what the committee was doing, said no.

And there was no cooperation, whatever.

None.

Absolutely none.

And, uh, and there were other citizens as well.

his favorites against the party.

Now, I think that's a hell of a good column for somebody to write or something.

Let me ask you to do this.

Write me a memorandum, only from my eyes only, with regard to everything you know about Johnson's use of the FBI for espionage, and then go back.

I was reading last night, you know, what Kennedy did on the FBI in the Steele case.

You may remember that as an interview.

You remember when he busted the...

The only thing that ever got distorted in that regard was the Dan Shore incident where

He left it at full field investigation was put on him in the life.

Well, as a matter of fact, that was what was happening.

We were trying to get to the very end behind the cold.

It's a very, just the background, I'm sure.

Right.

Particularly to see what his connections were.

Part of that, part of what you're doing.

I guess that was their cover.

But the idea that they didn't go back to shore?

No.

FBI agents, in any case, they got the three reporters, they got a lot of that, and said, we want to know where, what is the source of your...

book called Henry's Therapy in the Space by Malcolm Smith Jr. And it's the chapter on his policy.

It's a fascinating little story if you forget.

But I want to see everything Gus and everything else that you have.

You said Johnson kind of dictated that you were telling the committee the other day in terms of what Johnson did.

I just want to know what the hell we did now, and let me see what we can do with it.

I mean, I think the, we have not used it frankly at all.

I mean, that's the-

I suppose what past administrations have done, we have been so kind and so good as far as asking the FBI.

In fact, in some instances, I thought we should have asked them to do things that they are quite capable of doing.

Clint has also mentioned to me on the 68 bugging that he had lunch with Deloach yesterday.

And Deloach said that, said that, he said that,

there was no bugging of the president's plane per se, contrary to anything Hoover might have said.

And I said, well, Dick, what do you, how do you read that?

He said, well, one of two things.

One, Belos knows that he'd be in serious trouble for a potential felony himself if he confessed it.

Or two, it didn't happen.

So that's, and I said, well, how do you read it?

I said, I would read it the manner it would be,

Very doubtful he would confess himself into a felony.

That's right.

So it's going to be tough proof.

Because Deloach is the one who probably knows.

And that's what we can find through some of the other sources.

What you've got to do, John, is what I told Ray to do.

Just to get right down to the...

That's right.

That's exactly right.

That's what I do.

I think the timing on that, of course, would be that right after the hearings, right after he's sworn in, just go in and start breaking things wide open.

Right.

John Henley could be persuasive in that.

John Henley.

We now have other evidence to corroborate.

We don't want to know should be in the position of having a perimeter himself because it's going to be investigated.

Just get that word out.

You just say, I just don't mind you, but there's now evidence that he lied to the attorney general.

Just put it that way.

And under those circumstances, it was the case.

Okay.

But at least let them worry, that's right.

Let people worry, you know.

That's right, this is Kendall, this is Lester, and I gotta say now, if we just, as if we want, you know, as a friend, we don't wanna hurt anybody, but that, uh, tell them that the boys in the woodwork are talking, the little boys down in the woodwork.

I'm not gonna tell you who, it's on the convoy, but, uh, right, I have the grades confirmed,

very, very big story here in the newspaper.

We've got a couple of other hot newspaper reporters on him.

Deloach better be told.

He better not continue to lie, hurting himself about that money.

And there is a hot newspaper reporter, Kevin Phillips, all over this and trying to get it out.

See, Deloach told Mitchell, well, he told her to do it, and then didn't do it.

That's what he said.

He did trace telephone calls made from Agnew's airplane.

We got the full records of those and tracked those down as to where they were going.

That's our problem, isn't it?

Well, just say that there are people in the police that saw it.

You know, he won't know if there's normal bureau channels or not.

We didn't want to warn him.

And what he said to the attorney general was not true.

I just put it bluntly, what he said to the attorney general was not true.

And he better get his story straight with the attorney general or he'll bring you some problems.

Why not?

What do you think?

I think it's an excellent idea to let the man worry a little bit.

Because he might also worry himself into telling us a few more things that would be helpful to us.

That's right.

This is our friend.

He's going to go lurking around.

He's going to say that, look here, this is all real information.

This call's never been made.

But I think it's important that you know that this man is cranking around.

He said that he

I think it's a bit of a little bit now.

He's friendly to the climates.

He and the climates have become great friends.

I wouldn't trust him.

I wouldn't trust him at all.

I always...

I never have trust in him.

No?

He's a politician.

Absolutely.

He's out for a load first.

And he was playing to whoever...

He was playing to the cops for years.

Whoever occupied this office, he thought...

He thought whoever he thought was going to win.

He just played the wrong horse.

I know.

He's basically more of a member of the Republican community.

That's right, I understand he is as well.

And I've been trying to find out

what link we might have to Tulsa.

Of course, Tulsa's brother is with the Whitehorse House Historical Society.

What his relationship with his brother is, I don't know, but I just have always...

I could talk to you directly, but I shouldn't.

I may sometime.

But, um, you never know about Tulsa, whether he's bitter or this or that, and he might go out yanking, but... Well, at some point, I'm calling in general health.

That might not hurt.

Me?

Yes.

You know, we could check that out first and say that, you know, it's hurt you.

Yeah.

Why don't you get him to check on himself, how he's feeling and so forth.

Somebody's got to be seeing him.

Check also his birthday, is that the other thing?

Right.

Just say, I believe in the weather.

I know one of the investors might come forward with something you never know.

He knows, you know, Cougar or so, you know.

You know, that's the only man who could accomplish what we're doing.

He always had energy to do it.

I'm sure if we were told Colson Terry got that, then he'd have pursued her and we'd be glad to watch it.

I swear to God, I've been constantly using that hero.

The way he bothers you, the way we have him, he's great.

Jesus Christ, he's on hell of a bad way to get there.

That's right.

Well, the hero cannot survive.

God, it cannot survive.

That's right.

must be a committee authorized by the Congress of the United States.

Individual congressmen, of course, cannot get information.

I mean, that is not allowed.

It must be authorized by the House and Senate Investigative Committee for a legitimate legislating purpose.

And then under, and then we will finish the summary.

I know that's really, but golly, of all files,

Well, I know that.

The most spectacular thing is his saying, I will make agents who did the investigation who were on top of this available.

Now, these people are full of impressions, innuendo, their own feelings about the case, whether they were in cooperation with a witness, whether they weren't.

There was a considerable amount of bitching, for example, that I sat in on everybody at the White House in an interview.

Now, I thought there could be no other than the White House.

Why, of course.

The House and the White House.

That's right.

Who else did?

I was like, the House and the White House.

They said that the standard policy of the FBI was that no one was pressed when they interviewed somebody or they didn't interview them.

I said, well, if you want to interview these people, you're going to do it while I'm sitting here because I think I'm entitled to know for my own purposes.

You were conducting your investigation with the president.

That's right.

Right?

That's correct.

That's the line that Ray took.

You were conducting an investigation and you didn't.

Well, anyway, it's one of those things where it could go on and on and on and on.

And Gray has demonstrated in his first day's hearing, he's got it out there by the way, which is a weakness of him.

The reason I was very concerned about him

There's too much bravado there.

He's a big, strong Navy guy, you know.

Everything's great.

Boy, let's go.

He, he, he, he.

A guy that has not much outward self-confidence doesn't have much inward self-confidence.

That's what I'm saying.

Interesting observation.

It's like a board player, you know.

The guy's got the cards.

You know, the best of them are great.

You never know either way.

He's got the cards.

The very best of them, Christ, you will never know.

It doesn't count.

It's a little loud.

He said, well, you don't need to talk shit.

I think Gray will be all right once they get him through these hearings.

Yeah, he is loyal.

He's a decent man.

They're proud of him, but we're going to trade that goddamn FBI out, just like Schlesinger traded out the other.

Now the other thing, too, is this is a good idea.

Great.

It does stand up to the Senate too much.

We may have to face the facts.

Sometimes they don't have to go.

You know what I mean?

I have no confunctions about that.

It's really surprising and all that.

But that would be indicated if we could at least put it on that ground.

Sure.

FBI does not, does not need that to be managed seemingly.

That's right.

It would have to be that way.

Otherwise, you're jeopardizing one of the institutions of government that, uh,

But I don't see that.

I don't see Gray being in that position.

I think that he wants to be confirmed very badly.

He wants to appear that he has nothing to hide about the Watergate investigation.

That's good, too.

It's good.

He's proud of his Watergate investigation.

I said he's proud of his investigation, and despite the fact it caused us some kind of incredible grief.